Total Posts:81|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Honest question seeking honest answer.

InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 2:55:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
It seems every time I try to ask this the question gets dodged. I want a direct, short, and to the point answer: So Christians, If Jesus came and made the Old Testament irrelevant why do you still quote Leviticus in order to oppose homosexuality? If he made it irrelevant why are you still using select verses? Either stop including it in your official doctrine or start following the entire thing and stop consuming pork and shellfish, stop shaving, and whatever else it says to do.
TheAsylum
Posts: 772
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 3:00:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/5/2012 2:55:21 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
It seems every time I try to ask this the question gets dodged. I want a direct, short, and to the point answer: So Christians, If Jesus came and made the Old Testament irrelevant why do you still quote Leviticus in order to oppose homosexuality? If he made it irrelevant why are you still using select verses? Either stop including it in your official doctrine or start following the entire thing and stop consuming pork and shellfish, stop shaving, and whatever else it says to do.

Good question. The whole Bible is important but it is true Jesus Christ ame and fulfilled the Law. We are under grace and love now. No one should damn homosexuals unless they become perfect themselves. Though there are verses in the New Testament that refer to homosexuals and really any sexual immorality.
Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up to vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 3:02:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/5/2012 3:00:16 PM, TheAsylum wrote:
At 9/5/2012 2:55:21 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
It seems every time I try to ask this the question gets dodged. I want a direct, short, and to the point answer: So Christians, If Jesus came and made the Old Testament irrelevant why do you still quote Leviticus in order to oppose homosexuality? If he made it irrelevant why are you still using select verses? Either stop including it in your official doctrine or start following the entire thing and stop consuming pork and shellfish, stop shaving, and whatever else it says to do.

Good question. The whole Bible is important but it is true Jesus Christ ame and fulfilled the Law. We are under grace and love now. No one should damn homosexuals unless they become perfect themselves. Though there are verses in the New Testament that refer to homosexuals and really any sexual immorality.
Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up to vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Honestly I didn't even know those verses existed. Simply because the bigots never quote them. They always use stuff from Leviticus.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 3:03:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/5/2012 3:00:59 PM, Koopin wrote:
The Old Testament irrelevant now? News to me.

Yea, if you're not following it then I'd say it's pretty irrelevant. Christians eat ham to celebrate a dead Jew ffs! It's hilarious irony.
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 3:03:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/5/2012 2:55:21 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
It seems every time I try to ask this the question gets dodged. I want a direct, short, and to the point answer: So Christians, If Jesus came and made the Old Testament irrelevant why do you still quote Leviticus in order to oppose homosexuality? If he made it irrelevant why are you still using select verses? Either stop including it in your official doctrine or start following the entire thing and stop consuming pork and shellfish, stop shaving, and whatever else it says to do.

You asked for honest....That is presumptive and ignorant of theology. That is the short of it. see straw man
Koopin
Posts: 12,090
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 3:03:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/5/2012 3:02:08 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 9/5/2012 3:00:16 PM, TheAsylum wrote:
At 9/5/2012 2:55:21 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
It seems every time I try to ask this the question gets dodged. I want a direct, short, and to the point answer: So Christians, If Jesus came and made the Old Testament irrelevant why do you still quote Leviticus in order to oppose homosexuality? If he made it irrelevant why are you still using select verses? Either stop including it in your official doctrine or start following the entire thing and stop consuming pork and shellfish, stop shaving, and whatever else it says to do.

Good question. The whole Bible is important but it is true Jesus Christ ame and fulfilled the Law. We are under grace and love now. No one should damn homosexuals unless they become perfect themselves. Though there are verses in the New Testament that refer to homosexuals and really any sexual immorality.
Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up to vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Honestly I didn't even know those verses existed. Simply because the bigots never quote them. They always use stuff from Leviticus.

There are more. 1 Corinthians 6:9.

"Don't you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality"
kfc
Koopin
Posts: 12,090
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 3:04:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/5/2012 3:03:46 PM, Koopin wrote:
At 9/5/2012 3:02:08 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 9/5/2012 3:00:16 PM, TheAsylum wrote:
At 9/5/2012 2:55:21 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
It seems every time I try to ask this the question gets dodged. I want a direct, short, and to the point answer: So Christians, If Jesus came and made the Old Testament irrelevant why do you still quote Leviticus in order to oppose homosexuality? If he made it irrelevant why are you still using select verses? Either stop including it in your official doctrine or start following the entire thing and stop consuming pork and shellfish, stop shaving, and whatever else it says to do.

Good question. The whole Bible is important but it is true Jesus Christ ame and fulfilled the Law. We are under grace and love now. No one should damn homosexuals unless they become perfect themselves. Though there are verses in the New Testament that refer to homosexuals and really any sexual immorality.
Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up to vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Honestly I didn't even know those verses existed. Simply because the bigots never quote them. They always use stuff from Leviticus.

There are more. 1 Corinthians 6:9.

"Don't you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality"

lol... 69
kfc
MattDescopa
Posts: 356
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 3:07:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/5/2012 2:55:21 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
It seems every time I try to ask this the question gets dodged. I want a direct, short, and to the point answer: So Christians, If Jesus came and made the Old Testament irrelevant why do you still quote Leviticus in order to oppose homosexuality? If he made it irrelevant why are you still using select verses? Either stop including it in your official doctrine or start following the entire thing and stop consuming pork and shellfish, stop shaving, and whatever else it says to do.

Dont Muslims hate homosexuality too??? Aren't you being a hypocrite when you say you support homosexuality yet the quran says that homosexuals were destroyed?
Koopin
Posts: 12,090
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 3:08:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/5/2012 3:07:36 PM, MattDescopa wrote:
At 9/5/2012 2:55:21 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
It seems every time I try to ask this the question gets dodged. I want a direct, short, and to the point answer: So Christians, If Jesus came and made the Old Testament irrelevant why do you still quote Leviticus in order to oppose homosexuality? If he made it irrelevant why are you still using select verses? Either stop including it in your official doctrine or start following the entire thing and stop consuming pork and shellfish, stop shaving, and whatever else it says to do.

Dont Muslims hate homosexuality too??? Aren't you being a hypocrite when you say you support homosexuality yet the quran says that homosexuals were destroyed?

LOL
kfc
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 3:10:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/5/2012 3:07:36 PM, MattDescopa wrote:
At 9/5/2012 2:55:21 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
It seems every time I try to ask this the question gets dodged. I want a direct, short, and to the point answer: So Christians, If Jesus came and made the Old Testament irrelevant why do you still quote Leviticus in order to oppose homosexuality? If he made it irrelevant why are you still using select verses? Either stop including it in your official doctrine or start following the entire thing and stop consuming pork and shellfish, stop shaving, and whatever else it says to do.

Dont Muslims hate homosexuality too??? Aren't you being a hypocrite when you say you support homosexuality yet the quran says that homosexuals were destroyed?

That comment just shows pure ignorance of the Qur'an. It only talks about sodomy and it doesn't say to kill people who engage in the practice.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 3:11:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/5/2012 2:55:21 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
It seems every time I try to ask this the question gets dodged. I want a direct, short, and to the point answer: So Christians, If Jesus came and made the Old Testament irrelevant why do you still quote Leviticus in order to oppose homosexuality? If he made it irrelevant why are you still using select verses? Either stop including it in your official doctrine or start following the entire thing and stop consuming pork and shellfish, stop shaving, and whatever else it says to do.


Who ever says that the Law is irrelevant, is a fool.

Christ fulfilled the Law, he didn't abolish it.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Koopin
Posts: 12,090
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 3:13:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/5/2012 3:10:28 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 9/5/2012 3:07:36 PM, MattDescopa wrote:
At 9/5/2012 2:55:21 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
It seems every time I try to ask this the question gets dodged. I want a direct, short, and to the point answer: So Christians, If Jesus came and made the Old Testament irrelevant why do you still quote Leviticus in order to oppose homosexuality? If he made it irrelevant why are you still using select verses? Either stop including it in your official doctrine or start following the entire thing and stop consuming pork and shellfish, stop shaving, and whatever else it says to do.

Dont Muslims hate homosexuality too??? Aren't you being a hypocrite when you say you support homosexuality yet the quran says that homosexuals were destroyed?

That comment just shows pure ignorance of the Qur'an. It only talks about sodomy and it doesn't say to kill people who engage in the practice.

However, you have to agree that the Qu'ran is against homosexual practice correct?
kfc
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 3:13:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/5/2012 3:11:07 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 9/5/2012 2:55:21 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
It seems every time I try to ask this the question gets dodged. I want a direct, short, and to the point answer: So Christians, If Jesus came and made the Old Testament irrelevant why do you still quote Leviticus in order to oppose homosexuality? If he made it irrelevant why are you still using select verses? Either stop including it in your official doctrine or start following the entire thing and stop consuming pork and shellfish, stop shaving, and whatever else it says to do.


Who ever says that the Law is irrelevant, is a fool.

Christ fulfilled the Law, he didn't abolish it.

Then why don't Christians follow any of it except for condemning homosexuals?
imabench
Posts: 21,206
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 3:14:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/5/2012 3:13:11 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 9/5/2012 3:11:07 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 9/5/2012 2:55:21 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
It seems every time I try to ask this the question gets dodged. I want a direct, short, and to the point answer: So Christians, If Jesus came and made the Old Testament irrelevant why do you still quote Leviticus in order to oppose homosexuality? If he made it irrelevant why are you still using select verses? Either stop including it in your official doctrine or start following the entire thing and stop consuming pork and shellfish, stop shaving, and whatever else it says to do.


Who ever says that the Law is irrelevant, is a fool.

Christ fulfilled the Law, he didn't abolish it.

Then why don't Christians follow any of it except for condemning homosexuals?

Because Christians dont live their lives according to the Bible, just the parts that are the easiest.
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 3:14:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/5/2012 3:13:04 PM, Koopin wrote:
At 9/5/2012 3:10:28 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 9/5/2012 3:07:36 PM, MattDescopa wrote:
At 9/5/2012 2:55:21 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
It seems every time I try to ask this the question gets dodged. I want a direct, short, and to the point answer: So Christians, If Jesus came and made the Old Testament irrelevant why do you still quote Leviticus in order to oppose homosexuality? If he made it irrelevant why are you still using select verses? Either stop including it in your official doctrine or start following the entire thing and stop consuming pork and shellfish, stop shaving, and whatever else it says to do.

Dont Muslims hate homosexuality too??? Aren't you being a hypocrite when you say you support homosexuality yet the quran says that homosexuals were destroyed?

That comment just shows pure ignorance of the Qur'an. It only talks about sodomy and it doesn't say to kill people who engage in the practice.

However, you have to agree that the Qu'ran is against homosexual practice correct?

It speaks about sodomy which isn't limited to homosexual couples. Sodomy is a disgusting practice but it's not really any of my business. Also, only God can judge people so I try to refrain from doing so.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 3:17:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/5/2012 3:13:04 PM, Koopin wrote:
However, you have to agree that the Qu'ran is against homosexual practice correct?
Correct. The Islamic moral system would be inconsistent if the practice were permitted.
Koopin
Posts: 12,090
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 3:17:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/5/2012 3:14:53 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:

It speaks about sodomy which isn't limited to homosexual couples. Sodomy is a disgusting practice but it's not really any of my business. Also, only God can judge people so I try to refrain from doing so.

If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.

In the Qu'ran Allah passes his judgement in this verse against homosexuals.
kfc
MattDescopa
Posts: 356
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 3:18:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/5/2012 3:10:28 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 9/5/2012 3:07:36 PM, MattDescopa wrote:
At 9/5/2012 2:55:21 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
It seems every time I try to ask this the question gets dodged. I want a direct, short, and to the point answer: So Christians, If Jesus came and made the Old Testament irrelevant why do you still quote Leviticus in order to oppose homosexuality? If he made it irrelevant why are you still using select verses? Either stop including it in your official doctrine or start following the entire thing and stop consuming pork and shellfish, stop shaving, and whatever else it says to do.

Dont Muslims hate homosexuality too??? Aren't you being a hypocrite when you say you support homosexuality yet the quran says that homosexuals were destroyed?

That comment just shows pure ignorance of the Qur'an. It only talks about sodomy and it doesn't say to kill people who engage in the practice.

Are you joking me?

The Quran explicitly teaches that homosexual acts are one of the worst sins in Islam. The early muslims never believed that someone was born a homosexual and that commiting the act is a deviation.

[Quran 7:80-81 & 84] We also (sent) Lut: He said to his people: "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? "For ye practise your lusts on men in preference to women : ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds." And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): Then see what was the end of those who indulged in sin and crime!

Allah in the Quran destroyed the people who commited sodomy with heated clay. Scholars in your religion denounce the notion of homosexuality.

http://islamqa.info...
"The crime of homosexuality is one of the greatest of crimes, the worst of sins and the most abhorrent of deeds, and Allaah punished those who did it in a way that He did not punish other nations. It is indicative of violation of the fitrah, total misguidance, weak intellect and lack of religious commitment, and it is a sign of doom and deprivation of the mercy of Allaah. We ask Allaah to keep us safe and sound. "

lol

http://islamqa.info...
"We do not agree with their claim that their sexual orientation is natural; rather it is a distortion of nature. Allaah counted their deed as wrongdoing and immoral, and He sent upon the people of Lut a punishment the like of which no other nation had seen. He also tells us that this punishment is not ever far from the wrongdoers."

If there is anyone who opposes homosexuality the most it is Muslims.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 3:22:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/5/2012 3:13:11 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 9/5/2012 3:11:07 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 9/5/2012 2:55:21 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
It seems every time I try to ask this the question gets dodged. I want a direct, short, and to the point answer: So Christians, If Jesus came and made the Old Testament irrelevant why do you still quote Leviticus in order to oppose homosexuality? If he made it irrelevant why are you still using select verses? Either stop including it in your official doctrine or start following the entire thing and stop consuming pork and shellfish, stop shaving, and whatever else it says to do.


Who ever says that the Law is irrelevant, is a fool.

Christ fulfilled the Law, he didn't abolish it.

Then why don't Christians follow any of it except for condemning homosexuals?


That's a pretty ignorant statement.. I don't condemn homosexuals.

Matter of fact, i don't condemn anyone; who am I to do that?

I do follow the word of God, because the word of God (including the Law), leads me to faith in Christ. All of it, from beginning to end, is about Christ.

Romans 7
10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.
13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

Explains it pretty clearly right here, let me know if you really need this to be interpreted.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 3:22:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/5/2012 3:18:26 PM, MattDescopa wrote:

Are you joking me?

The Quran explicitly teaches that homosexual acts are one of the worst sins in Islam. The early muslims never believed that someone was born a homosexual and that commiting the act is a deviation.

[Quran 7:80-81 & 84] We also (sent) Lut: He said to his people: "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? "For ye practise your lusts on men in preference to women : ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds." And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): Then see what was the end of those who indulged in sin and crime!

Allah in the Quran destroyed the people who commited sodomy with heated clay. Scholars in your religion denounce the notion of homosexuality.

http://islamqa.info...
"The crime of homosexuality is one of the greatest of crimes, the worst of sins and the most abhorrent of deeds, and Allaah punished those who did it in a way that He did not punish other nations. It is indicative of violation of the fitrah, total misguidance, weak intellect and lack of religious commitment, and it is a sign of doom and deprivation of the mercy of Allaah. We ask Allaah to keep us safe and sound. "

lol

http://islamqa.info...
"We do not agree with their claim that their sexual orientation is natural; rather it is a distortion of nature. Allaah counted their deed as wrongdoing and immoral, and He sent upon the people of Lut a punishment the like of which no other nation had seen. He also tells us that this punishment is not ever far from the wrongdoers."

If there is anyone who opposes homosexuality the most it is Muslims.

You also linked to sunni sites which mean nothing to me as I'm not a sunni. Besides, assuming it is immoral only God alone can punish people for it which is why I don't concern myself with them. If God wanted humans to administer a punishment for it he would have said so in the Qur'an.
Koopin
Posts: 12,090
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 3:24:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/5/2012 3:22:50 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
If God wanted humans to administer a punishment for it he would have said so in the Qur'an.

" If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both"
kfc
MattDescopa
Posts: 356
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 3:24:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
your name says "insertnamehere", what should I call you? Please answer.

Your liberalization on your support of homosexuality and your religion of arguably heavily conservative islam at least in many respects puts you in a major paradox.

On one hand "insertnamehere" you support homosexuality and want homosexuals to be treated fairly and live in peace

Yet on the other hand, your religion at the very least heavily denounces sodomy (a key homosexual act) which is restricting to homosexuals happiness, freedom, and expression of love.

"Insertnamehere", it is impossible to support both proposition so you must take ONE only. Will you take Islam, or what you personally believe at this moment of time is right.

*play Jeopardy think music*
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 3:29:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/5/2012 3:17:49 PM, Koopin wrote:
If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.

In the Qu'ran Allah passes his judgement in this verse against homosexuals.
Nope. There is no legal punishment for the act mentioned in the Quran. The companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) never used this verse as a legal code for implementing punishment.

"The apparent difference between the contents of the two verses led al-Suddi to the misconceived belief that the first verse lays down the punishment for married women, and the second that for unmarried men and women. This is a tenuous explanation unsupported by any serious evidence and argument. Even less convincing is the opinion expressed by Abu Muslim al-Isfahani that the first verse relates to lesbian relations between females, and the second to homosexual relations between males. It is strange that al-Isfahani ignored the basic fact that the Qur'an seeks merely to chart a broad code of law and morality and hence deals only with fundamental questions. It is inconsistent with the majestic style of the Qur'an to discuss secondary details which have been left to people to decide through the exercise of their legal judgement. It is for this reason that when the problem of fixing a punishment for sodomy came up for consideration after the time of the Prophet (peace be on him), none of the Companions thought that the above-mentioned verse contained any relevant injunction." http://www.islamicstudies.info...
MattDescopa
Posts: 356
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 3:29:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/5/2012 3:22:50 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
You also linked to sunni sites which mean nothing to me as I'm not a sunni. Besides, assuming it is immoral only God alone can punish people for it which is why I don't concern myself with them. If God wanted humans to administer a punishment for it he would have said so in the Qur'an.

Wow, isn't that orthodox Islam? I don't know much about Islam but doesn't "Sunni" mean Sunnah, people who follow the teachings of Muhammad????

So you don't follow the teachings of the prophet who your whole religion (exculding theological concepts) is based upon?

Isn't your faith/allegiance a bit confusing?

I'm sorry if I'm pressing you hard or anything. I don't mean to make you feel "bad" or "hypocritical".
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 3:30:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/5/2012 3:24:59 PM, MattDescopa wrote:
your name says "insertnamehere", what should I call you? Please answer.

Your liberalization on your support of homosexuality and your religion of arguably heavily conservative islam at least in many respects puts you in a major paradox.

On one hand "insertnamehere" you support homosexuality and want homosexuals to be treated fairly and live in peace

Yet on the other hand, your religion at the very least heavily denounces sodomy (a key homosexual act) which is restricting to homosexuals happiness, freedom, and expression of love.

"Insertnamehere", it is impossible to support both proposition so you must take ONE only. Will you take Islam, or what you personally believe at this moment of time is right.

I think the problem here is that you're assuming I want religious law pushed on everybody. Yes I have my own beliefs but I also heavily believe in secularism. Since not everybody has the same religious beliefs religious law should only apply to those who are part of the religion rather than everybody. With that said, if two atheist homosexuals were to go do buttsecks I really couldn't care less. As for muslim homosexuals, I'm not responsible for their fate.

Also, if you're a Christian please answer the original question instead of dodging it by attacking my own views.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 3:37:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/5/2012 3:29:58 PM, MattDescopa wrote:
At 9/5/2012 3:22:50 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
You also linked to sunni sites which mean nothing to me as I'm not a sunni. Besides, assuming it is immoral only God alone can punish people for it which is why I don't concern myself with them. If God wanted humans to administer a punishment for it he would have said so in the Qur'an.

Wow, isn't that orthodox Islam? I don't know much about Islam but doesn't "Sunni" mean Sunnah, people who follow the teachings of Muhammad????

So you don't follow the teachings of the prophet who your whole religion (exculding theological concepts) is based upon?

Isn't your faith/allegiance a bit confusing?

I'm sorry if I'm pressing you hard or anything. I don't mean to make you feel "bad" or "hypocritical".

The "sunnah" is based on the hearsay "evidence" recorded by Bukhari and other scholars. It's only accepted and followed by sunnis and even they can't agree on which ahadith are authentic. There is not a single hadith that is universally accepted by all scholars. It's really a deep subject I'd rather not get into in this thread.

Btw, there's other sects such as shias who have their own hadith collections that differ from the sunni ones.
Koopin
Posts: 12,090
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 3:37:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/5/2012 3:30:11 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 9/5/2012 3:24:59 PM, MattDescopa wrote:
your name says "insertnamehere", what should I call you? Please answer.

Your liberalization on your support of homosexuality and your religion of arguably heavily conservative islam at least in many respects puts you in a major paradox.

On one hand "insertnamehere" you support homosexuality and want homosexuals to be treated fairly and live in peace

Yet on the other hand, your religion at the very least heavily denounces sodomy (a key homosexual act) which is restricting to homosexuals happiness, freedom, and expression of love.

"Insertnamehere", it is impossible to support both proposition so you must take ONE only. Will you take Islam, or what you personally believe at this moment of time is right.

I think the problem here is that you're assuming I want religious law pushed on everybody. Yes I have my own beliefs but I also heavily believe in secularism. Since not everybody has the same religious beliefs religious law should only apply to those who are part of the religion rather than everybody. With that said, if two atheist homosexuals were to go do buttsecks I really couldn't care less. As for muslim homosexuals, I'm not responsible for their fate.

Also, if you're a Christian please answer the original question instead of dodging it by attacking my own views.

Can we officially debate it? I don't like debating in forums, and it can't be done in a simple text.
kfc
Koopin
Posts: 12,090
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/5/2012 3:38:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/5/2012 3:37:29 PM, Koopin wrote:
At 9/5/2012 3:30:11 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 9/5/2012 3:24:59 PM, MattDescopa wrote:
your name says "insertnamehere", what should I call you? Please answer.

Your liberalization on your support of homosexuality and your religion of arguably heavily conservative islam at least in many respects puts you in a major paradox.

On one hand "insertnamehere" you support homosexuality and want homosexuals to be treated fairly and live in peace

Yet on the other hand, your religion at the very least heavily denounces sodomy (a key homosexual act) which is restricting to homosexuals happiness, freedom, and expression of love.

"Insertnamehere", it is impossible to support both proposition so you must take ONE only. Will you take Islam, or what you personally believe at this moment of time is right.

I think the problem here is that you're assuming I want religious law pushed on everybody. Yes I have my own beliefs but I also heavily believe in secularism. Since not everybody has the same religious beliefs religious law should only apply to those who are part of the religion rather than everybody. With that said, if two atheist homosexuals were to go do buttsecks I really couldn't care less. As for muslim homosexuals, I'm not responsible for their fate.

Also, if you're a Christian please answer the original question instead of dodging it by attacking my own views.

Can we officially debate it? I don't like debating in forums, and it can't be done in a simple text.

The Christian part (origanal question) not the muslim thing.
kfc