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Evil

ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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9/6/2012 2:00:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Does cold exist?

In fact, the idea of cold was created by man to explain the absence of heat. Cold as anything but an idea does not exist.

Does darkness exist?

The same thing goes here, darkness is just the absence of light. Darkness in itself is not something that was created but is merely an idea to explain the absence of light.

Does evil exist?

In the same way of cold and darkness, evil does not exist in the way that people pushing the problem of evil want it to. Evil was not created but is a condition to explain the absence of God in people's lives. God did not create evil, which is why he despises it, it is not of his creation, but is instead a state resulting from the actions of people in his creation.

inb4
Why did He create free will yadda yadda yadda...

Free will and evil do not go together here. You can argue against God's creation of freewill and what not but God did not create evil.
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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9/6/2012 2:04:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/6/2012 2:00:16 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Does cold exist?

In fact, the idea of cold was created by man to explain the absence of heat. Cold as anything but an idea does not exist.

Does darkness exist?

The same thing goes here, darkness is just the absence of light. Darkness in itself is not something that was created but is merely an idea to explain the absence of light.

Does evil exist?

In the same way of cold and darkness, evil does not exist in the way that people pushing the problem of evil want it to. Evil was not created but is a condition to explain the absence of God in people's lives. God did not create evil, which is why he despises it, it is not of his creation, but is instead a state resulting from the actions of people in his creation.

inb4
Why did He create free will yadda yadda yadda...

Free will and evil do not go together here. You can argue against God's creation of freewill and what not but God did not create evil.

How long is a piece of string? What is Evil? Can Free Will be made unfree by and/or through human action? What role, if any, faculties? Does evil exist absent the action and intent of humans?
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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9/6/2012 2:15:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Re: can free will be taken away through human action?

Yes. It's termed manipulation and/or duress.

Re: how long is a piece of string?

Sorite's principle.
TheAsylum
Posts: 772
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9/6/2012 2:41:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/6/2012 2:00:16 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Does cold exist?

In fact, the idea of cold was created by man to explain the absence of heat. Cold as anything but an idea does not exist.

Does darkness exist?

The same thing goes here, darkness is just the absence of light. Darkness in itself is not something that was created but is merely an idea to explain the absence of light.

Does evil exist?

In the same way of cold and darkness, evil does not exist in the way that people pushing the problem of evil want it to. Evil was not created but is a condition to explain the absence of God in people's lives. God did not create evil, which is why he despises it, it is not of his creation, but is instead a state resulting from the actions of people in his creation.

inb4
Why did He create free will yadda yadda yadda...

Free will and evil do not go together here. You can argue against God's creation of freewill and what not but God did not create evil.

I agree.
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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9/6/2012 3:01:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/6/2012 2:00:16 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Does cold exist?

In fact, the idea of cold was created by man to explain the absence of heat. Cold as anything but an idea does not exist.

Does darkness exist?

The same thing goes here, darkness is just the absence of light. Darkness in itself is not something that was created but is merely an idea to explain the absence of light.

Does evil exist?

In the same way of cold and darkness, evil does not exist in the way that people pushing the problem of evil want it to. Evil was not created but is a condition to explain the absence of God in people's lives. God did not create evil, which is why he despises it, it is not of his creation, but is instead a state resulting from the actions of people in his creation.

inb4
Why did He create free will yadda yadda yadda...

Free will and evil do not go together here. You can argue against God's creation of freewill and what not but God did not create evil.

Ooh, ooh, my turn!

What is the french?

We use the term "the french" to describe something that is real.

What is an socialism?

We use the term "socialism" to describe a combination of particular ideologies into a total ideological position.

What is that feeling when I bang my toe against the side of my sofa and start swearing like a sailor on methamphetamines?

We use the term "pain" to describe a collection of negative things which occurs in our lives.

What is evil?

We use the term evil to describe a collection of events which are real that occur in our lives. (Or it's a vague term with no meaning and thus moral non-cognitivism)

Notice how I can prove things by flaunting analogies and saying they're a good comparison? Oh, I got another one.

You know apples? That's a fruit.
You know pears? They're fruit.
You know evil? That's a fruit.

See how stupid it sounds now? An analogy doesn't make an argument.

What you're doing is getting a privation and saying that, because of my analogy, it's valid. But I can say quite fairly that evil exists separate of good.

But let's actually disprove this idea of privation.

1) Imagine I see a man collecting money for a charity. Is this "moral"? Let's say yes. Now, imagine I didn't give money to charity to the man. Is this therefore "immoral"? We'd have some very excessively demanding morality if it were the case. Or let's say that I always have the option to make someone else's life better by giving to charity. Is my life now a constant stream of immoral actions? No, quite simply.

2) If evil is a lack of good, then similarly by analogy I can say good is a lack of evil. So by not killing someone, I have done a great moral deed. Which sounds horribly idiotic on the face of it. In fact, beating a man up and not killing them becomes a moral action, because I am lacking some evil in the action.

3) All of this is based on "secondary qualities". Heat doesn't exist. Neither does cold. Darkness doesn't exist. Neither does light. Show me either a jar of darkness, or show me a jar of light, for your argument to make sense. Locke made this clear 500 years ago, before the Christian hijacking of this fallacy. To be fair, Augustine came up with it 1000 years before Locke, but his argument was a description of how he viewed evil. It doesn't make it the correct view.

I could go on about other analogous problems this leads to, how an omnipresent God would have to have evil everywhere anyway and a privation is just as much of a fault, but I'll just point you to the quick link:

http://www.rationalresponders.com...
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
unitedandy
Posts: 1,173
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9/6/2012 3:15:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/6/2012 2:00:16 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Does cold exist?

In fact, the idea of cold was created by man to explain the absence of heat. Cold as anything but an idea does not exist.

Does darkness exist?

The same thing goes here, darkness is just the absence of light. Darkness in itself is not something that was created but is merely an idea to explain the absence of light.

Does evil exist?

In the same way of cold and darkness, evil does not exist in the way that people pushing the problem of evil want it to. Evil was not created but is a condition to explain the absence of God in people's lives. God did not create evil, which is why he despises it, it is not of his creation, but is instead a state resulting from the actions of people in his creation.

inb4
Why did He create free will yadda yadda yadda...

Free will and evil do not go together here. You can argue against God's creation of freewill and what not but God did not create evil.

I'll tell you what, I'll be happy to debate you on the problem of evil, if you think this response can stand up to scrutiny.
Zaradi
Posts: 14,124
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9/6/2012 3:29:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/6/2012 3:01:35 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 9/6/2012 2:00:16 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Does cold exist?

In fact, the idea of cold was created by man to explain the absence of heat. Cold as anything but an idea does not exist.

Does darkness exist?

The same thing goes here, darkness is just the absence of light. Darkness in itself is not something that was created but is merely an idea to explain the absence of light.

Does evil exist?

In the same way of cold and darkness, evil does not exist in the way that people pushing the problem of evil want it to. Evil was not created but is a condition to explain the absence of God in people's lives. God did not create evil, which is why he despises it, it is not of his creation, but is instead a state resulting from the actions of people in his creation.

inb4
Why did He create free will yadda yadda yadda...

Free will and evil do not go together here. You can argue against God's creation of freewill and what not but God did not create evil.

Ooh, ooh, my turn!

What is the french?

We use the term "the french" to describe something that is real.

What is an socialism?

We use the term "socialism" to describe a combination of particular ideologies into a total ideological position.

What is that feeling when I bang my toe against the side of my sofa and start swearing like a sailor on methamphetamines?

We use the term "pain" to describe a collection of negative things which occurs in our lives.

What is evil?

We use the term evil to describe a collection of events which are real that occur in our lives. (Or it's a vague term with no meaning and thus moral non-cognitivism)

Notice how I can prove things by flaunting analogies and saying they're a good comparison? Oh, I got another one.

You know apples? That's a fruit.
You know pears? They're fruit.
You know evil? That's a fruit.

See how stupid it sounds now? An analogy doesn't make an argument.

What you're doing is getting a privation and saying that, because of my analogy, it's valid. But I can say quite fairly that evil exists separate of good.

But let's actually disprove this idea of privation.

1) Imagine I see a man collecting money for a charity. Is this "moral"? Let's say yes. Now, imagine I didn't give money to charity to the man. Is this therefore "immoral"? We'd have some very excessively demanding morality if it were the case. Or let's say that I always have the option to make someone else's life better by giving to charity. Is my life now a constant stream of immoral actions? No, quite simply.

2) If evil is a lack of good, then similarly by analogy I can say good is a lack of evil. So by not killing someone, I have done a great moral deed. Which sounds horribly idiotic on the face of it. In fact, beating a man up and not killing them becomes a moral action, because I am lacking some evil in the action.

3) All of this is based on "secondary qualities". Heat doesn't exist. Neither does cold. Darkness doesn't exist. Neither does light. Show me either a jar of darkness, or show me a jar of light, for your argument to make sense. Locke made this clear 500 years ago, before the Christian hijacking of this fallacy. To be fair, Augustine came up with it 1000 years before Locke, but his argument was a description of how he viewed evil. It doesn't make it the correct view.

I could go on about other analogous problems this leads to, how an omnipresent God would have to have evil everywhere anyway and a privation is just as much of a fault, but I'll just point you to the quick link:

http://www.rationalresponders.com...

This. Very well done Stephen.
Want to debate? Pick a topic and hit me up! - http://www.debate.org...
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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9/6/2012 3:57:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/6/2012 3:29:57 PM, Zaradi wrote:
At 9/6/2012 3:01:35 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 9/6/2012 2:00:16 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Does cold exist?

In fact, the idea of cold was created by man to explain the absence of heat. Cold as anything but an idea does not exist.

Does darkness exist?

The same thing goes here, darkness is just the absence of light. Darkness in itself is not something that was created but is merely an idea to explain the absence of light.

Does evil exist?

In the same way of cold and darkness, evil does not exist in the way that people pushing the problem of evil want it to. Evil was not created but is a condition to explain the absence of God in people's lives. God did not create evil, which is why he despises it, it is not of his creation, but is instead a state resulting from the actions of people in his creation.

inb4
Why did He create free will yadda yadda yadda...

Free will and evil do not go together here. You can argue against God's creation of freewill and what not but God did not create evil.

Ooh, ooh, my turn!

What is the french?

We use the term "the french" to describe something that is real.

What is an socialism?

We use the term "socialism" to describe a combination of particular ideologies into a total ideological position.

What is that feeling when I bang my toe against the side of my sofa and start swearing like a sailor on methamphetamines?

We use the term "pain" to describe a collection of negative things which occurs in our lives.

What is evil?

We use the term evil to describe a collection of events which are real that occur in our lives. (Or it's a vague term with no meaning and thus moral non-cognitivism)

Notice how I can prove things by flaunting analogies and saying they're a good comparison? Oh, I got another one.

You know apples? That's a fruit.
You know pears? They're fruit.
You know evil? That's a fruit.

See how stupid it sounds now? An analogy doesn't make an argument.

What you're doing is getting a privation and saying that, because of my analogy, it's valid. But I can say quite fairly that evil exists separate of good.

But let's actually disprove this idea of privation.

1) Imagine I see a man collecting money for a charity. Is this "moral"? Let's say yes. Now, imagine I didn't give money to charity to the man. Is this therefore "immoral"? We'd have some very excessively demanding morality if it were the case. Or let's say that I always have the option to make someone else's life better by giving to charity. Is my life now a constant stream of immoral actions? No, quite simply.

2) If evil is a lack of good, then similarly by analogy I can say good is a lack of evil. So by not killing someone, I have done a great moral deed. Which sounds horribly idiotic on the face of it. In fact, beating a man up and not killing them becomes a moral action, because I am lacking some evil in the action.

3) All of this is based on "secondary qualities". Heat doesn't exist. Neither does cold. Darkness doesn't exist. Neither does light. Show me either a jar of darkness, or show me a jar of light, for your argument to make sense. Locke made this clear 500 years ago, before the Christian hijacking of this fallacy. To be fair, Augustine came up with it 1000 years before Locke, but his argument was a description of how he viewed evil. It doesn't make it the correct view.

I could go on about other analogous problems this leads to, how an omnipresent God would have to have evil everywhere anyway and a privation is just as much of a fault, but I'll just point you to the quick link:

http://www.rationalresponders.com...

This. Very well done Stephen.

To be quite frank, I don't see what I did well. For tl;dr, it's essentially "false analogy".
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
rogue
Posts: 2,325
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9/7/2012 1:15:38 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/6/2012 2:00:16 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
Does cold exist?

In fact, the idea of cold was created by man to explain the absence of heat. Cold as anything but an idea does not exist.

Does darkness exist?

The same thing goes here, darkness is just the absence of light. Darkness in itself is not something that was created but is merely an idea to explain the absence of light.

Does evil exist?

In the same way of cold and darkness, evil does not exist in the way that people pushing the problem of evil want it to. Evil was not created but is a condition to explain the absence of God in people's lives. God did not create evil, which is why he despises it, it is not of his creation, but is instead a state resulting from the actions of people in his creation.

inb4
Why did He create free will yadda yadda yadda...

Free will and evil do not go together here. You can argue against God's creation of freewill and what not but God did not create evil.

I thought evil was created by Satan who was created by god. Why would god create something evil?
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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9/7/2012 2:35:04 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
French, Socialism and Evil are words used to describe things that are mental, non-sensible, non-physical, non-spatial and causally inefficacious, in a word, abstractions. Socialism, French and Evil are mind-dependent, they cannot exist without the mind and are merely conceptions. By being mental they are non-spatial they can exist regardless of time, they are non-physical, they have no corporal form, and they are causally inefficacious, by having no form they cannot cause things to be.

Fruit, darkness and cold may exist if no one is thinking about them, they are non-mental. They are different, fruit exists without a human brain, fruit can be tasted, has corporeal flesh, it exists in time (came to be and came to not be) and whose existence effects the affairs of this would. Fruit exists where others are but abstractions of the mind.

Your analogies are both false because you amalgamate the abstract and concrete as if they were one the same. In metaphysics and the philosophy of words this is known as The Way of Negation.

Evil is not the absence of good, it is the opposite of good. Good and Evil do not exist, there is no orientations of evil and good. To use the terms of Evil and God supposes the existence of a moral law. Some actions are good and others bad? As an atheist you cannot make such assumptions you have no basis on which to judge them. Atheism demands the nihilist view of moral law, the problem of evil breaks down because you're arguing the existance of something that cannot exist.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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9/7/2012 8:05:58 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/7/2012 2:43:34 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Please excuse me while I absence of not killing a baby.

^- This isn't evil. I don't like it, but can't call it evil as an absolute. I simply don't have to authority to impose moral absolutes. My humanity feels the evil but I simply can't prove it rationally.

As a Christian I may, but only because of the authority of God. This is known in meta-ethics as Divine Command Theory. God, the all knowing, commands that the killing of an innocent is an evil; it is from his moral law that I label an action evil. This system of ethics assumes God (or, strictly speaking, an all knowing person who cannot lie) exists. If one doesn't exist this argument is baseless and we assume the nihilist atheist position of no moral law.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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9/7/2012 9:24:43 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/7/2012 8:05:58 AM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 9/7/2012 2:43:34 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Please excuse me while I absence of not killing a baby.

^- This isn't evil. I don't like it, but can't call it evil as an absolute. I simply don't have to authority to impose moral absolutes. My humanity feels the evil but I simply can't prove it rationally.

As a Christian I may, but only because of the authority of God. This is known in meta-ethics as Divine Command Theory. God, the all knowing, commands that the killing of an innocent is an evil; it is from his moral law that I label an action evil. This system of ethics assumes God (or, strictly speaking, an all knowing person who cannot lie) exists. If one doesn't exist this argument is baseless and we assume the nihilist atheist position of no moral law.

Cool....everything is ok.
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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9/7/2012 9:33:36 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/7/2012 9:28:02 AM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 9/7/2012 9:24:43 AM, logicrules wrote:

Cool....everything is ok.
Philosophically speaking, pretty much.

lol...no, If you have an operant philosophy you estop certain actions and affirm others.