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The flat earth of the Bible!

think41self
Posts: 41
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9/6/2012 9:21:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The bible speaks with terminology from the flat earth model as was the only view from the time period. It speaks of a firmament or solid dome covering the flat earth, four corners, pillars, waters above the firmament, the circle of the earth which was inscribed upon the face of the deep, no use of the Hebrew word for sphere in conjunction with the earth's shape, pillars again, ends of the earth and the like.

It wasn't until Eratosthenes, that we see a spherical earth in history. His accomplishments started us on a new line of thinking. Saying the bible, thought of it first, diminishes the accomplishments of this man. He was quite above others at this time.

Does the bible speak of a flat earth?

Why does it use flat earth terminology?

How come this terminology entered the NT?

Why were most Church fathers still flat earth believers after the Greeks showed it wasnt?

Does a firmament show that the god of the bible created something that doesn't exist?
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
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9/7/2012 10:42:09 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Can you give a specific example?
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
TheAsylum
Posts: 772
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9/7/2012 10:46:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/6/2012 9:21:44 PM, think41self wrote:
The bible speaks with terminology from the flat earth model as was the only view from the time period. It speaks of a firmament or solid dome covering the flat earth, four corners, pillars, waters above the firmament, the circle of the earth which was inscribed upon the face of the deep, no use of the Hebrew word for sphere in conjunction with the earth's shape, pillars again, ends of the earth and the like.

It wasn't until Eratosthenes, that we see a spherical earth in history. His accomplishments started us on a new line of thinking. Saying the bible, thought of it first, diminishes the accomplishments of this man. He was quite above others at this time.

Does the bible speak of a flat earth?

Why does it use flat earth terminology?

How come this terminology entered the NT?

Why were most Church fathers still flat earth believers after the Greeks showed it wasnt?

Does a firmament show that the god of the bible created something that doesn't exist?

The Bible say's the earth is a circle.
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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9/7/2012 10:52:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/6/2012 9:21:44 PM, think41self wrote:
The bible speaks with terminology from the flat earth model as was the only view from the time period. It speaks of a firmament or solid dome covering the flat earth, four corners, pillars, waters above the firmament, the circle of the earth which was inscribed upon the face of the deep, no use of the Hebrew word for sphere in conjunction with the earth's shape, pillars again, ends of the earth and the like.

It wasn't until Eratosthenes, that we see a spherical earth in history. His accomplishments started us on a new line of thinking. Saying the bible, thought of it first, diminishes the accomplishments of this man. He was quite above others at this time.

Does the bible speak of a flat earth?

Why does it use flat earth terminology?

How come this terminology entered the NT?

Why were most Church fathers still flat earth believers after the Greeks showed it wasnt?

Does a firmament show that the god of the bible created something that doesn't exist?

Yes The earth was flat to those who wrote the bible. Thus we still think hell is below...hades if you will. It was the science of the day, and science is always wrong, or at least incomplete.
The idea that the Greeks showed it wasn't is philosophical. The early Church Fathers were the original fundamentalists.
Firmament is just what they called those things we call Universe, galaxy etc. Just a term.

The NT was first transmitted orally, is based firmly in Judaism and the writers were uneducated...mostly. Certainly not familiar with Greek Philosophy, Rome wasn't big on public education.
TheAsylum
Posts: 772
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9/7/2012 10:59:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants there of areas grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
logicrules
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9/7/2012 11:01:25 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/7/2012 10:59:12 AM, TheAsylum wrote:
Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants there of areas grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

LOL now quoting that shows an abject ignorance of Jewish scripture, Prophets and theology.
TheAsylum
Posts: 772
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9/7/2012 11:05:42 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/7/2012 11:01:25 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 9/7/2012 10:59:12 AM, TheAsylum wrote:
Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants there of areas grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

LOL now quoting that shows an abject ignorance of Jewish scripture, Prophets and theology.

It is you sir that is ignorant. "Hey, We are all saved, there is not need for faith or belief or repentence. We are all saved and will go to heaven anyway." Nonsense and The Bible teaches no such thing. You have no idea what the Scriptures say's. You should mind your tongue.
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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9/7/2012 11:07:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/7/2012 11:05:42 AM, TheAsylum wrote:
At 9/7/2012 11:01:25 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 9/7/2012 10:59:12 AM, TheAsylum wrote:
Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants there of areas grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

LOL now quoting that shows an abject ignorance of Jewish scripture, Prophets and theology.

It is you sir that is ignorant. "Hey, We are all saved, there is not need for faith or belief or repentence. We are all saved and will go to heaven anyway." Nonsense and The Bible teaches no such thing. You have no idea what the Scriptures say's. You should mind your tongue.

Yup....Jesus died for ALL...ergo ALL
TheAsylum
Posts: 772
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9/7/2012 11:08:58 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/7/2012 11:07:56 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 9/7/2012 11:05:42 AM, TheAsylum wrote:
At 9/7/2012 11:01:25 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 9/7/2012 10:59:12 AM, TheAsylum wrote:
Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants there of areas grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

LOL now quoting that shows an abject ignorance of Jewish scripture, Prophets and theology.

It is you sir that is ignorant. "Hey, We are all saved, there is not need for faith or belief or repentence. We are all saved and will go to heaven anyway." Nonsense and The Bible teaches no such thing. You have no idea what the Scriptures say's. You should mind your tongue.

Yup....Jesus died for ALL...ergo ALL

That translates into all will accept it and recieve it, HOW?
think41self
Posts: 41
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9/7/2012 11:23:49 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Isaiah 40:22 actually states a firmament or vault above the flat earth disk that every culture from that time frame understood as their cosmology. It in no way denotes a sphere. The Hebrews had a word for sphere (Dur) which Isaiah uses as well in Isaiah 22:18 when he states that god will roll you up like a ball and throw you. Never once is the Hebrew word for sphere used in association with the earth. The only word in association of the earth as far as shape is the circle khoog meaning flat circle that is draw upon the face of the deep like when a person uses a compass.

The firmament is not an idiom or phenomenological language. The firmament was part of the flat earth model believed by all cultures in the Mesopotamian region in that time. It is a solid dome, hence firmamentum, or firm. This was supposed to be the reason the skies are blue because there were waters above the firmament, as we read in Genesis 1. This is also in agreement with the flat earth model. In Isaiah 40:22 God sits upon the circle or vault or firmament of heaven, remember its a solid dome, and from there he looks down to the flat earth and sees the people as grasshoppers.

This in itself shows that the Israelites attributed the flat earth model to their god as his creation. The firmament in Genesis is a direct creation of god to separate the waters above from the waters below. Today we know there is no such thing.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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9/7/2012 11:50:51 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Genesis makes no sense if the term "earth" is appropriated to mean a spherical globe. However, seemingly "lyrical" passages suddenly make literal sense if you realize the cultural context.

Sumerians, Egyptians, early Japanese and Buddhist traditions involve the world as a flat (usually a disc) and floating on some substance (usually on water). A majority of Greeks even believed in flat earth till well past the time of Moses.

Let's take two hypotheses to explain Genesis and see which leads to a literal reading:

1. "Earth" (eretz) refers to a flat circle resting on water [the substrate which is an analogue to our "void of space"] which is made immovable (or movable) by God. The sky is a literal dome above enclosing the waters.
2. "Earth" refers a spherical object in orbit around a larger object called the "sun" surrounded by a vacuum.

http://www.mechon-mamre.org...

Gen 1:2 Speaks of the earth being unformed and a void, yet God hovered over the face of the waters. (1) allows for a literal reading. Under hypothesis (2) the verse must be taken as metaphor, since the earth could not be a void/unformed while simultaneously being filled with water.

(1) this literally means God created the earth on top of waters. Under (2) the adjectives "unformed" and "void" must be taken to metaphorically refer to "lacking continents above the water" or "cooling of the earths crust."

Gen 1:6. And God said: 'Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8And God called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

Under (1) the above makes perfect sense. "Dividing the waters from the waters" literally refers to the dome of the sky. Under (2) this must refer to continents moving or arising. However, this makes Gen 1:10 redundant under (2) since it also refers to "dry land Earth" versus "waters".

Summary: Under hypothesis 1, Jewish cosmology was exactly in line with the majority of cultures of the time period, and Genesis 1:1-10 can be interpretted literally without reference to metaphor.

Under hypothesis 2, Jewish culture leapfrogged ahead of every major civilization (even Greeks hadn't widely accepted a spherical earth at the time). Although the wording of Genesis 1:11-31 is taken literally, the wording of Genesis 1:1-1:10 is taken metaphorically.

Flat earth on water fits empirical and textual evidence. Sphere in space does not.
TheAsylum
Posts: 772
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9/7/2012 12:09:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Let's first note no Biblical scholars at work here, just ramblings imposters.
Proverbs 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
Compass: An enclosing line or boundary; a circumference:
Job 26:10 He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end.
Compassed: 1. To make a circuit of; circle:
Bounds: To set a limits to; confines
"It is he who sits ABOVE the CIRCLE OF THE EARTH"
Circle: A sphere is a perfectly round geometrical object in three-dimensional space, such as the shape of a round ball. Like a circle, which is in two dimensions, a sphere is the set of points which are all the same distance from a given point in space.
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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9/7/2012 12:18:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/7/2012 12:09:42 PM, TheAsylum wrote:
Let's first note no Biblical scholars at work here, just ramblings imposters.
Proverbs 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
Compass: An enclosing line or boundary; a circumference:
Job 26:10 He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end.
Compassed: 1. To make a circuit of; circle:
Bounds: To set a limits to; confines
"It is he who sits ABOVE the CIRCLE OF THE EARTH"
Circle: A sphere is a perfectly round geometrical object in three-dimensional space, such as the shape of a round ball. Like a circle, which is in two dimensions, a sphere is the set of points which are all the same distance from a given point in space.

mmmm Name one Biblical Scholar whom you have read, or in the alternative one commentary on which you feel competent? I choose the Jerome Biblical Commentary but use collegeville here as Jerome is far to advanced. oh yea...Ray Brown....your turn
TheAsylum
Posts: 772
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9/7/2012 12:20:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/7/2012 12:18:29 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 9/7/2012 12:09:42 PM, TheAsylum wrote:
Let's first note no Biblical scholars at work here, just ramblings imposters.
Proverbs 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
Compass: An enclosing line or boundary; a circumference:
Job 26:10 He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end.
Compassed: 1. To make a circuit of; circle:
Bounds: To set a limits to; confines
"It is he who sits ABOVE the CIRCLE OF THE EARTH"
Circle: A sphere is a perfectly round geometrical object in three-dimensional space, such as the shape of a round ball. Like a circle, which is in two dimensions, a sphere is the set of points which are all the same distance from a given point in space.

mmmm Name one Biblical Scholar whom you have read, or in the alternative one commentary on which you feel competent? I choose the Jerome Biblical Commentary but use collegeville here as Jerome is far to advanced. oh yea...Ray Brown....your turn

You like men's word instead of God's. You can not compete with that.
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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9/7/2012 12:28:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/7/2012 12:20:45 PM, TheAsylum wrote:
At 9/7/2012 12:18:29 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 9/7/2012 12:09:42 PM, TheAsylum wrote:
Let's first note no Biblical scholars at work here, just ramblings imposters.
Proverbs 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
Compass: An enclosing line or boundary; a circumference:
Job 26:10 He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end.
Compassed: 1. To make a circuit of; circle:
Bounds: To set a limits to; confines
"It is he who sits ABOVE the CIRCLE OF THE EARTH"
Circle: A sphere is a perfectly round geometrical object in three-dimensional space, such as the shape of a round ball. Like a circle, which is in two dimensions, a sphere is the set of points which are all the same distance from a given point in space.

mmmm Name one Biblical Scholar whom you have read, or in the alternative one commentary on which you feel competent? I choose the Jerome Biblical Commentary but use collegeville here as Jerome is far to advanced. oh yea...Ray Brown....your turn

You like men's word instead of God's. You can not compete with that.

LOL you are a trip. No biblical study, no familiarity with Secondary Sources AT ALL, No theology, limited education (missing much), and you KNOW what some guy 2600 years ago meant when he wrote something down to preserve another guys story that guy one heard a few times. Further, you know all the redactions and reasons for them so well that you KNOW everything it means. wow

Yup, I prefer educated men with a theological construct over that nonsense any day. Above is a summary of your post which I have read. Either the writers of the text knew what they were doing or you do....can't be both.
TheAsylum
Posts: 772
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9/7/2012 12:28:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
mmmm Name one Biblical Scholar whom you have read, or in the alternative one commentary on which you feel competent? I choose the Jerome Biblical Commentary but use collegeville here as Jerome is far to advanced. oh yea...Ray Brown....your turn

William F. Albright
Edgar Johnson (E.J.) Goodspeed
John Bunyan
D. L. Moody
Johannes Cocceius
Michael L. Westmoreland
Andy Goodliff
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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9/7/2012 12:31:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/7/2012 12:28:46 PM, TheAsylum wrote:
mmmm Name one Biblical Scholar whom you have read, or in the alternative one commentary on which you feel competent? I choose the Jerome Biblical Commentary but use collegeville here as Jerome is far to advanced. oh yea...Ray Brown....your turn

William F. Albright
Edgar Johnson (E.J.) Goodspeed
John Bunyan
D. L. Moody
Johannes Cocceius
Michael L. Westmoreland
Andy Goodliff

Ok...so you're familiar with them, read them or competent on ALL....which is it? Bone up on your reading skills
logicrules
Posts: 1,721
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9/7/2012 12:33:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/7/2012 11:05:42 AM, TheAsylum wrote:
At 9/7/2012 11:01:25 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 9/7/2012 10:59:12 AM, TheAsylum wrote:
Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants there of areas grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

LOL now quoting that shows an abject ignorance of Jewish scripture, Prophets and theology.

It is you sir that is ignorant. "Hey, We are all saved, there is not need for faith or belief or repentence. We are all saved and will go to heaven anyway." Nonsense and The Bible teaches no such thing. You have no idea what the Scriptures say's. You should mind your tongue.

Sorry for the delay....Isaiah is of the prophetic genre....its all allegory not a single word of fact in it. Hence, any interpretation requires a theology. First year OT studies and Rabbinical Tradition
think41self
Posts: 41
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9/7/2012 12:35:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/7/2012 12:20:45 PM, TheAsylum wrote:
At 9/7/2012 12:18:29 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 9/7/2012 12:09:42 PM, TheAsylum wrote:
Let's first note no Biblical scholars at work here, just ramblings imposters.
Proverbs 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
Compass: An enclosing line or boundary; a circumference:
Job 26:10 He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end.
Compassed: 1. To make a circuit of; circle:
Bounds: To set a limits to; confines
"It is he who sits ABOVE the CIRCLE OF THE EARTH"
Circle: A sphere is a perfectly round geometrical in three-dimensional space, such as the shape of a round ball. Like a circle, which is in two dimensions, a sphere is the set of points which are all the same distance from a given point in space.

mmmm Name one Biblical Scholar whom you have read, or in the alternative one commentary on which you feel competent? I choose the Jerome Biblical Commentary but use collegeville here as Jerome is far to advanced. oh yea...Ray Brown....your turn

You like men's word instead of God's. You can not compete with that.

The verses you quoted give creedence to a flat earth. Or am I misunderstanding your post?
TheAsylum
Posts: 772
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9/7/2012 12:36:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/7/2012 12:33:22 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 9/7/2012 11:05:42 AM, TheAsylum wrote:
At 9/7/2012 11:01:25 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 9/7/2012 10:59:12 AM, TheAsylum wrote:
Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants there of areas grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

LOL now quoting that shows an abject ignorance of Jewish scripture, Prophets and theology.

It is you sir that is ignorant. "Hey, We are all saved, there is not need for faith or belief or repentence. We are all saved and will go to heaven anyway." Nonsense and The Bible teaches no such thing. You have no idea what the Scriptures say's. You should mind your tongue.

Sorry for the delay....Isaiah is of the prophetic genre....its all allegory not a single word of fact in it. Hence, any interpretation requires a theology. First year OT studies and Rabbinical Tradition

LOL. That means tons. Funny men think they can interpret something that takes the Holy Ghost not a college degree.
logicrules
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9/7/2012 12:39:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/7/2012 12:36:25 PM, TheAsylum wrote:
At 9/7/2012 12:33:22 PM, logicrules wrote:
At 9/7/2012 11:05:42 AM, TheAsylum wrote:
At 9/7/2012 11:01:25 AM, logicrules wrote:
At 9/7/2012 10:59:12 AM, TheAsylum wrote:
Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants there of areas grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

LOL now quoting that shows an abject ignorance of Jewish scripture, Prophets and theology.

It is you sir that is ignorant. "Hey, We are all saved, there is not need for faith or belief or repentence. We are all saved and will go to heaven anyway." Nonsense and The Bible teaches no such thing. You have no idea what the Scriptures say's. You should mind your tongue.

Sorry for the delay....Isaiah is of the prophetic genre....its all allegory not a single word of fact in it. Hence, any interpretation requires a theology. First year OT studies and Rabbinical Tradition

LOL. That means tons. Funny men think they can interpret something that takes the Holy Ghost not a college degree.

so Jesus was wrong.....now that is special. You do know that the Rabbinical tradition is the one the Jesus of the NT used, meaning you just discounted the entire New Testament and Most of the Old because you know better....
TheAsylum
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9/7/2012 12:40:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago

You like men's word instead of God's. You can not compete with that.

The verses you quoted give creedence to a flat earth. Or am I misunderstanding your post?

LOL
TheAsylum
Posts: 772
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9/7/2012 12:42:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
so Jesus was wrong.....now that is special. You do know that the Rabbinical tradition is the one the Jesus of the NT used, meaning you just discounted the entire New Testament and Most of the Old because you know better....

Yes, show me, Jesus used it. When Jesus, himself, inspired the Bible, why would He need manmade interpretations at all?
logicrules
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9/7/2012 12:43:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/7/2012 12:40:52 PM, TheAsylum wrote:

You like men's word instead of God's. You can not compete with that.

The verses you quoted give creedence to a flat earth. Or am I misunderstanding your post?

LOL

I think you just laughed at a serious question...not very Christian methinks.
think41self
Posts: 41
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9/7/2012 12:53:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/7/2012 12:40:52 PM, TheAsylum wrote:

You like men's word instead of God's. You can not compete with that.

The verses you quoted give creedence to a flat earth. Or am I misunderstanding your post?

LOL
I guess your not taking me seriously? The verse you used to say that the bible speaks of a spherical earth are emphatically flat earth verses. Drawing a circle on the deep is just that. Drawing out the boundaries of the flat earth is what the verse is trying to tell you. This is understood when one uses a compass. A compass cannot draw a sphere. Only two dimensional objects.
TheAsylum
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9/7/2012 12:57:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/7/2012 12:53:03 PM, think41self wrote:
At 9/7/2012 12:40:52 PM, TheAsylum wrote:

You like men's word instead of God's. You can not compete with that.

The verses you quoted give creedence to a flat earth. Or am I misunderstanding your post?

LOL
I guess your not taking me seriously? The verse you used to say that the bible speaks of a spherical earth are emphatically flat earth verses. Drawing a circle on the deep is just that. Drawing out the boundaries of the flat earth is what the verse is trying to tell you. This is understood when one uses a compass. A compass cannot draw a sphere. Only two dimensional objects.

Your going to interpret to me? WOW, that should be interesting. Also your thinking of a earthly compass, thats your boo-boo.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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9/7/2012 1:02:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/7/2012 12:09:42 PM, TheAsylum wrote:
Let's first note no Biblical scholars at work here, just ramblings imposters.
Proverbs 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
Compass: An enclosing line or boundary; a circumference:
Job 26:10 He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end.
Compassed: 1. To make a circuit of; circle:
Bounds: To set a limits to; confines
"It is he who sits ABOVE the CIRCLE OF THE EARTH"
Circle: A sphere is a perfectly round geometrical object in three-dimensional space, such as the shape of a round ball. Like a circle, which is in two dimensions, a sphere is the set of points which are all the same distance from a given point in space.

Really? You define "circle" as being "three-dimensional AND like a circle which is two dimensional?" How about the euclidean "the shape resulting from a set of points equidistant to a given center."

This means that you cannot appeal to "circle" as evidence that the earth is spherical.

The waters under the earth were never be said to be infinite. That's how verses in the Bible can talk about someone seeing one side of the world to the other. Also, my interpretation can literally translate So both your Proverbs and Job quote further my argument.

Since you're so found of definitions lets try
Above: spatially higher than

God cannot literally sit "above" the earth is a sphere rotating the sun. While this makes PERFECT sense under flat earth, it must be taken as a metaphor for "different layer of existence" when describing a spherical earth.

As to your condescending attitude with reference to us not being biblical scholars, you can respectfully blow it out your @ss.

THE GEOGRAPHICAL MEANING OF "EARTH"AND "SEAS" IN GENESIS 1:10. Paul Seely. Westminster Theological Journal 59 (1997) 231-55
http://faculty.gordon.edu...