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Does Deism even make sense?

EvanK
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9/7/2012 9:46:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The way I see it, if God exists, then he must have created us with a purpose. I don't think he would've lit the fuse for the big bang, and then just sit back and watch the action. Being agnostic, it seems to me that Deism doesn't really make sense...It seems like Deists don't like religion, but don't want to give up on God either, so they take a bit from both sides of the argument (theism and atheism) and combine them. No religion, but God still exists.

So Deists (however many exist on DDO) what point would God have in creating the universe, if he doesn't want something from us? Why not just become atheist or agnostic? Just trying to understand here...
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000ike
Posts: 11,196
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9/7/2012 9:56:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/7/2012 9:46:38 PM, EvanK wrote:
The way I see it, if God exists, then he must have created us with a purpose. I don't think he would've lit the fuse for the big bang, and then just sit back and watch the action. Being agnostic, it seems to me that Deism doesn't really make sense...It seems like Deists don't like religion, but don't want to give up on God either, so they take a bit from both sides of the argument (theism and atheism) and combine them. No religion, but God still exists.

So Deists (however many exist on DDO) what point would God have in creating the universe, if he doesn't want something from us? Why not just become atheist or agnostic? Just trying to understand here...

It seems to me that you don't have any logical reasons against Deism. You just "feel" like God should do x and "think" that God wouldn't do y.

I think it's asinine that you can look at God, the being you claim is infinite and incomprehensible, and actually attempt to ascribe reasons to his actions....affixing your own opinions on sensible behavior unto him. The God that created the universe and that transcends our senses and cognition is an innately ineffable being. This, among others, is why I think Christianity is ridiculous. It's not just that it claims things that are false,...but that it fails on its own terms.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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9/8/2012 8:54:30 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/7/2012 9:56:13 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 9/7/2012 9:46:38 PM, EvanK wrote:
The way I see it, if God exists, then he must have created us with a purpose. I don't think he would've lit the fuse for the big bang, and then just sit back and watch the action. Being agnostic, it seems to me that Deism doesn't really make sense...It seems like Deists don't like religion, but don't want to give up on God either, so they take a bit from both sides of the argument (theism and atheism) and combine them. No religion, but God still exists.

So Deists (however many exist on DDO) what point would God have in creating the universe, if he doesn't want something from us? Why not just become atheist or agnostic? Just trying to understand here...

It seems to me that you don't have any logical reasons against Deism. You just "feel" like God should do x and "think" that God wouldn't do y.

I think it's asinine that you can look at God, the being you claim is infinite and incomprehensible, and actually attempt to ascribe reasons to his actions....affixing your own opinions on sensible behavior unto him. The God that created the universe and that transcends our senses and cognition is an innately ineffable being. This, among others, is why I think Christianity is ridiculous. It's not just that it claims things that are false,...but that it fails on its own terms.

Ya, I always found it funny how a theist says you cannot understand God when arguing against atheistic points, but in the same breath they will tell you that God loves us him/ her and cares about him/ her. There would have to have a pretty good understanding of God to know that he loves, and also loves him/ her for that matter. But wait, I thought God was incomprehensible? Double standards.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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9/8/2012 9:01:53 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/8/2012 8:54:30 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Ya, I always found it funny how a theist says you cannot understand God when arguing against atheistic points, but in the same breath they will tell you that God loves us him/ her and cares about him/ her. There would have to have a pretty good understanding of God to know that he loves, and also loves him/ her for that matter. But wait, I thought God was incomprehensible? Double standards.

I hope that I can say something that makes sense. In a panel debate which included William Lane Craig, Christopher Hitchens and Lee Strobel, Hitchens said, "I love how Christians say you can't understand God, and then are always so quick to tell me his will." (Paraphrasing) I don't think a Christian would ever claim to know something about Gods will except for what he has revealed to us through the bible. So yes we cannot understand God unless he somehow reveals himself to us which was through the bible and his son Jesus Christ. Now I would think you might just say the bible and Jesus are not God revealing himself. And thats okay for people to believe that. But from a Christian perspective thats how, atleast myself, and probably the majority of Christians see it and from that perspective there is no contradiction or double standard.
TheAsylum
Posts: 772
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9/8/2012 9:13:07 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/8/2012 9:01:53 AM, stubs wrote:
At 9/8/2012 8:54:30 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Ya, I always found it funny how a theist says you cannot understand God when arguing against atheistic points, but in the same breath they will tell you that God loves us him/ her and cares about him/ her. There would have to have a pretty good understanding of God to know that he loves, and also loves him/ her for that matter. But wait, I thought God was incomprehensible? Double standards.

I hope that I can say something that makes sense. In a panel debate which included William Lane Craig, Christopher Hitchens and Lee Strobel, Hitchens said, "I love how Christians say you can't understand God, and then are always so quick to tell me his will." (Paraphrasing) I don't think a Christian would ever claim to know something about Gods will except for what he has revealed to us through the bible. So yes we cannot understand God unless he somehow reveals himself to us which was through the bible and his son Jesus Christ. Now I would think you might just say the bible and Jesus are not God revealing himself. And thats okay for people to believe that. But from a Christian perspective thats how, atleast myself, and probably the majority of Christians see it and from that perspective there is no contradiction or double standard.

Well said.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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9/8/2012 9:44:58 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/8/2012 9:01:53 AM, stubs wrote:
At 9/8/2012 8:54:30 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Ya, I always found it funny how a theist says you cannot understand God when arguing against atheistic points, but in the same breath they will tell you that God loves us him/ her and cares about him/ her. There would have to have a pretty good understanding of God to know that he loves, and also loves him/ her for that matter. But wait, I thought God was incomprehensible? Double standards.

I hope that I can say something that makes sense. In a panel debate which included William Lane Craig, Christopher Hitchens and Lee Strobel, Hitchens said, "I love how Christians say you can't understand God, and then are always so quick to tell me his will." (Paraphrasing) I don't think a Christian would ever claim to know something about Gods will except for what he has revealed to us through the bible. So yes we cannot understand God unless he somehow reveals himself to us which was through the bible and his son Jesus Christ. Now I would think you might just say the bible and Jesus are not God revealing himself. And thats okay for people to believe that. But from a Christian perspective thats how, atleast myself, and probably the majority of Christians see it and from that perspective there is no contradiction or double standard.

Well said indeed. So, if I understand you correctly, your argument is that we cannot understand God apart from what you believe he has revealed to humans in The Bible? If this is the case, then it still puts the theist in an awkward position. The reason I say this is because if you look at the Bible objectively, there is no clear way to comprehend it properly. There are so many different subsets within Christianity, adhering to completely different interpretations. You can find some that have widely different views than others. Then, you even have people who interpret the gruesome events in the Old Testament, to indicate a psychopathic like deity.

Also, I could come out with a book tomorrow, say I was inspired by God, and include whatever I wanted in it with regards to his will and mind. You would have to demonstrate that The Bible is more than just a book written by men who claimed to be/ thought they were inspired by God for your argument to work. Either way, what is there to back up the notion that God is incomprehensible anyway? If he exists, he wanted a universe with black holes, we can tell that because we live in a universe with black holes. This means, if God exists, we can comprehend things about his will using evidence and logic alone. Thus, this type of "how can you claim to understand the mind of God?" rebuttal from theists isn't very good in the first place I'm afraid.
TheAsylum
Posts: 772
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9/8/2012 9:57:59 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Well said indeed. So, if I understand you correctly, your argument is that we cannot understand God apart from what you believe he has revealed to humans in The Bible?:
Exzactly, that is its purpose.
If this is the case, then it still puts the theist in an awkward position. The reason I say this is because if you look at the Bible objectively, there is no clear way to comprehend it properly.:
You missed the point, men are not suppose to comprehind it from just themselves but from the Holy Ghost. You can open the Bible and many things about your life will jump out at you, knowledge will jump up at you, but that is only if you have the spirit working with you.
There are so many different subsets within Christianity, adhering to completely different interpretations.:
This is true and incorrect by them. We are all Christaian and should have no division. The reason I will support division from Roman Catholic is because they have adopted non Biblical teachings and rituals.
Also, I could come out with a book tomorrow, say I was inspired by God, and include whatever I wanted in it with regards to his will and mind.:
You should, if you could, with the complexity and information as the Bible. You have 2,000+ plus advantage. Though no one ever has, not even the Q'ruan.
You would have to demonstrate that The Bible is more than just a book written by men who claimed to be/ thought they were inspired by God for your argument to work.:
Exzactly, write the Bible, another one, do not say you can do it and prove it. Otherwise it is nonsense. Many smarter than you and I, have not and could not.
Either way, what is there to back up the notion that God is incomprehensible anyway? If he exists, he wanted a universe with black holes, we can tell that because we live in a universe with black holes.:
You think nothing but physical, God does not claim rule over the physical, satan does.
This means, if God exists, we can comprehend things about his will using evidence and logic alone.:
No you can not. You must have the Holy Ghost.
Thus, this type of "how can you claim to understand the mind of God?" rebuttal from theists isn't very good in the first place I'm afraid.:
I am afraid your logic is not strong enough nor is anyones without God. You are in the same thinking as these new age religions, though you dont claim it, they beliee they will become Gods and achieve this through thier own intellect, and they are mistaken. These thoughts and teachings stem back to acient mystery school teachings and lead back to what the serpent told eve. You be as Gods, immortal and through your own mind.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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9/8/2012 10:01:55 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/8/2012 9:44:58 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Well said indeed. So, if I understand you correctly, your argument is that we cannot understand God apart from what you believe he has revealed to humans in The Bible?

And through his son Jesus. But you're right as you pointed out below we can see things in nature that can tell us things.

If this is the case, then it still puts the theist in an awkward position. The reason I say this is because if you look at the Bible objectively, there is no clear way to comprehend it properly.

Yes, I would say that no matter how good we are at interpreting, I don't think we know exactly what every passage means. But all that means is that we can't fully know understand things about God. Which every Christian agrees upon. However, that does not mean there are not things in which we can and do understand. For example, I don't believe we can truly understand how much God loves us. But I do believe he loves us which is evident throughout the bible and in the fact that he sent his son to take the punishment for our sins.

There are so many different subsets within Christianity, adhering to completely different interpretations. You can find some that have widely different views than others. Then, you even have people who interpret the gruesome events in the Old Testament, to indicate a psychopathic like deity.


Again, I agree. You are pointing out some things we just are not sure about. However, it does not follow that we cannot know anything about God if he exists and revealed himself through the bible.

Also, I could come out with a book tomorrow, say I was inspired by God, and include whatever I wanted in it with regards to his will and mind. You would have to demonstrate that The Bible is more than just a book written by men who claimed to be/ thought they were inspired by God for your argument to work.

Well first I would try and convince someone that the bible, specifically the new testament, is an historically reliable document. When I talk to people about that I tell them to forget about thinking the bible is a God inspired book. First just look at it and see if you think it is historically reliable as an ancient text. After that, then we look at if it is divinely inspired.

Either way, what is there to back up the notion that God is incomprehensible anyway? If he exists, he wanted a universe with black holes, we can tell that because we live in a universe with black holes. This means, if God exists, we can comprehend things about his will using evidence and logic alone. Thus, this type of "how can you claim to understand the mind of God?" rebuttal from theists isn't very good in the first place I'm afraid.

I can't speak for all theists or Christians, but I would never claim we can't understand anything about God. Only that we cannot understand somethings. I'll just expand on the black holes example you brought up. Maybe we can conclude from that, that he wanted a universe with black holes. But we wouldn't know why (or at least I don't). But we have to be careful even with that because if we look at the world and see evil in it, does it then follow that God wants a world full of evil? And I know that could lead into the problem of evil which is totally off the topic of this thread and I don't want to get off topic, but I was just using it as an example where the reasoning you brought up could possibly lead us a little off of the truth.
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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9/8/2012 1:30:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/7/2012 9:46:38 PM, EvanK wrote:
The way I see it, if God exists, then he must have created us with a purpose.

Yes, God the powerful, transcendent ruler of the universe. Do you really expect to hold a reasonable assertion of what such a being would do if he existed? What we can know of him is very limited and we have no knowledge about his preferences and such.

Anyways, deism doesn't state we have no purpose. In fact, the early deists advanced the clockwork notion. That everything in the universe is fitted according to how God made the universe and the universe itself has a fitted purpose. Deists also sometimes believe in an after life and a God ordained moral code. I'm personally agnostic to the former and against the latter.

I don't think he would've lit the fuse for the big bang, and then just sit back and watch the action.

Wild speculation. You have extremely limited knowledge on the character of God if he existed. It's like a small child questioning his parents, only much more fallacious.

Being agnostic, it seems to me that Deism doesn't really make sense...It seems like Deists don't like religion, but don't want to give up on God either, so they take a bit from both sides of the argument (theism and atheism) and combine them. No religion, but God still exists.

It's not cherry picking as you make it out to be. Deists simply believe intelligent design is more probable than not so accept theism but see no reason to believe in a religion. Personally I'd rather believe in a religion anyways. I think deism is the most logical theistic belief. It doesn't entail all the problems religion brings and makes less extraordinary claims.

So Deists (however many exist on DDO) what point would God have in creating the universe, if he doesn't want something from us?

Who says he doesn't want something from us? Or from creating the universe? He obviously had a reason for causing the universe but deism necessarily posits a very limited knowledge of God so I haven't the slightest clue, but I don't need to.

Why not just become atheist or agnostic? Just trying to understand here...

Because I find the arguments for God sufficient...
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