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why religion is NOT bad

Lordknukle
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9/9/2012 11:23:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Excellent argument.

Tell me why religion is good.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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9/9/2012 11:33:53 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/9/2012 10:06:37 AM, av14 wrote:
Who believes that no good comes from religion? Its not true!

You're opening up a can of worms here...lol

Exactly, how are you defining religion?? Are you referring to organized religion, or are you simply meaning "belief in God".
Zaradi
Posts: 14,121
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9/9/2012 11:59:51 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/9/2012 11:23:15 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
Excellent argument.

Tell me why religion is good.
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phantom
Posts: 6,774
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9/9/2012 12:14:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Religion has good and bad. That's undeniable. The good is that it gives people hope, a reason to live and be happy, to be moral and also the charity organizations that stem from it.

The bad is the close-mindedness that often comes from it, taking things to the extreme, hating gays, letting your child die since you chose to pray instead of taking her to the hospital, going by old testament laws. Those types of things. It's a mixed bag. That much is certain.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
muzebreak
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9/9/2012 12:19:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
There is a huge difference between being bad and no good coming from something, pick one point and ill be happy to do my best to defeat it.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
EvanK
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9/9/2012 12:22:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/9/2012 10:06:37 AM, av14 wrote:
Who believes that no good comes from religion? Its not true!

It's not entirely good or entirely bad, but plenty of bad things do in fact result from religion...On the flip side, of course, some good does come from religion. Just depends on how you look at it.
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
Lordknukle
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9/9/2012 12:24:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Any good that comes from religion can be easily achieved elsewhere. On the other hand, the "bad" (quotations because nothing is inherently bad) things that religion promotes are usually fairly unique to it.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
TheAsylum
Posts: 772
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9/9/2012 12:25:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/9/2012 12:19:37 PM, muzebreak wrote:
There is a huge difference between being bad and no good coming from something, pick one point and ill be happy to do my best to defeat it.

I think the OP made that clear.
TheAsylum
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9/9/2012 12:26:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/9/2012 12:24:55 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Any good that comes from religion can be easily achieved elsewhere. On the other hand, the "bad" (quotations because nothing is inherently bad) things that religion promotes are usually fairly unique to it.

Salvation is no where else.
Lordknukle
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9/9/2012 12:27:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/9/2012 12:26:43 PM, TheAsylum wrote:
At 9/9/2012 12:24:55 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Any good that comes from religion can be easily achieved elsewhere. On the other hand, the "bad" (quotations because nothing is inherently bad) things that religion promotes are usually fairly unique to it.

Salvation is no where else.

If by "no where else" you mean in the brains of deluded irrational madmen, then I agree!
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
TheAsylum
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9/9/2012 12:31:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/9/2012 12:27:50 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 9/9/2012 12:26:43 PM, TheAsylum wrote:
At 9/9/2012 12:24:55 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Any good that comes from religion can be easily achieved elsewhere. On the other hand, the "bad" (quotations because nothing is inherently bad) things that religion promotes are usually fairly unique to it.

Salvation is no where else.

If by "no where else" you mean in the brains of deluded irrational madmen, then I agree!

There you go you disproved your own statement.
Zaradi
Posts: 14,121
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9/9/2012 12:40:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/9/2012 12:31:45 PM, TheAsylum wrote:
At 9/9/2012 12:27:50 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 9/9/2012 12:26:43 PM, TheAsylum wrote:
At 9/9/2012 12:24:55 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Any good that comes from religion can be easily achieved elsewhere. On the other hand, the "bad" (quotations because nothing is inherently bad) things that religion promotes are usually fairly unique to it.

Salvation is no where else.

If by "no where else" you mean in the brains of deluded irrational madmen, then I agree!

There you go you disproved your own statement.

Okay, I'll bite.

How did he disprove his own statement?
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stubs
Posts: 1,887
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9/9/2012 1:03:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/9/2012 12:27:50 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 9/9/2012 12:26:43 PM, TheAsylum wrote:
At 9/9/2012 12:24:55 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Any good that comes from religion can be easily achieved elsewhere. On the other hand, the "bad" (quotations because nothing is inherently bad) things that religion promotes are usually fairly unique to it.

Salvation is no where else.

If by "no where else" you mean in the brains of deluded irrational madmen, then I agree!

Do you think that all who believe in any God are "deluded irrational madmen"?
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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9/9/2012 1:04:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/9/2012 1:03:43 PM, stubs wrote:
At 9/9/2012 12:27:50 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 9/9/2012 12:26:43 PM, TheAsylum wrote:
At 9/9/2012 12:24:55 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Any good that comes from religion can be easily achieved elsewhere. On the other hand, the "bad" (quotations because nothing is inherently bad) things that religion promotes are usually fairly unique to it.

Salvation is no where else.

If by "no where else" you mean in the brains of deluded irrational madmen, then I agree!

Do you think that all who believe in any God are "deluded irrational madmen"?

Nope, I was just providing a tit-for-tat unsubstantiated and ridiculous assertion of Asylum's post.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
av14
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9/9/2012 1:06:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/9/2012 11:23:15 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
Excellent argument.

Tell me why religion is good.

Well, it is a form of support, and hope. It is reassuring and encouraging! Do you disagree, and if so, why?
av14
Posts: 12
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9/9/2012 1:09:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/9/2012 12:24:55 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Any good that comes from religion can be easily achieved elsewhere. On the other hand, the "bad" (quotations because nothing is inherently bad) things that religion promotes are usually fairly unique to it.

What exactly are these "bad", yet unique things?
Lordknukle
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9/9/2012 1:10:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/9/2012 1:09:52 PM, av14 wrote:
At 9/9/2012 12:24:55 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Any good that comes from religion can be easily achieved elsewhere. On the other hand, the "bad" (quotations because nothing is inherently bad) things that religion promotes are usually fairly unique to it.

What exactly are these "bad", yet unique things?

Crusades, Jihads, and about 100 other violent things that many religions preach.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Zaradi
Posts: 14,121
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9/9/2012 1:13:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/9/2012 1:06:33 PM, av14 wrote:
At 9/9/2012 11:23:15 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
Excellent argument.

Tell me why religion is good.

Well, it is a form of support, and hope. It is reassuring and encouraging! Do you disagree, and if so, why?

False hope in something that cannot be confirmed to exist, and probably doesn't exist but I wouldn't know since it cannot be confirmed, is not hope or support, but rather is a crutch for rational thought. Think of all the (few) great Christian minds and how much further society would be if they had not wasted their time looking for an answer to arguments against God and used their talents to further society.

I want my flying jet cars dammit!
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av14
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9/9/2012 1:23:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/9/2012 1:13:37 PM, Zaradi wrote:
At 9/9/2012 1:06:33 PM, av14 wrote:
At 9/9/2012 11:23:15 AM, Lordknukle wrote:

"1.Religion helps to regulate our conduct and behaviour in society by providing a set of morals and value-system for human existence.
2.Religion guides our actions in life, putting a check on criminal tendency in human nature.
3.A true religion will ensure peaceful co-existence,love and harmony among human beings.
4.Religion keeps our feet firmly planted on the ground even when our heads are up in clouds because of fast-moving technology resulting in hectic and stressful lifestyle.
5.A true religion gives you a clear conscience while performing an action or taking a difficult decision,like resorting to arms in self-defence or in war.

6.Religion ensures balance in a life where negative social influences can be increasingly disruptive,immoral and corruptive for the mind.
7.As a science of self-improvement,religion offers a therapeutic and success-oriented lifestyle,a victorious way of life.
8.Religion prevents deterioration of the mind due to dehumanization and desensitization caused by highly mechanized modern living,thus providing stability.
9.True religion is the manifestation of mercy - God's mercy for His Creation and man's mercy towards his fellow-beings and environment(Creation).
10.Religion prevents us from being carried away by the tides of the times,because a true religion has an eternal value-system.
11.True religion protects the human rights of everyone and prevents their violation.
12.True religion ensures social justice,equality and security for all its adherents.
13.True religion ensures a happy,holy,healthy mind in a healthy body.
14.True religion provides for good governance of society and good care of its citizens."
Zaradi
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9/9/2012 1:38:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/9/2012 1:23:14 PM, av14 wrote:
At 9/9/2012 1:13:37 PM, Zaradi wrote:
At 9/9/2012 1:06:33 PM, av14 wrote:
At 9/9/2012 11:23:15 AM, Lordknukle wrote:

As an overview to all of your points:

Can you actually PROVE your statements are true rather than just asserting their true and looking like a complete dunce?

"1.Religion helps to regulate our conduct and behaviour in society by providing a set of morals and value-system for human existence.

These set morals can be found outside of religion. Non-unique.
2.Religion guides our actions in life, putting a check on criminal tendency in human nature.

1. Criminal tendency? Proof that we are inherently criminals or gtfo.
2. Isn't this the entire point of making laws? To prevent crime? Lol.
3.A true religion will ensure peaceful co-existence,love and harmony among human beings.

Guess this doesn't exist, since the Crusades, jihad, Spanish Inquisition, etc. Do I need to continue?
4.Religion keeps our feet firmly planted on the ground even when our heads are up in clouds because of fast-moving technology resulting in hectic and stressful lifestyle.

......
1. I don't even think that was a coherent sentence.
2. Rational thought allows us to keep "our feet firmly planted on the ground" which religion inherently stifles (there are a few exceptions, but for the most part it's true).
5.A true religion gives you a clear conscience while performing an action or taking a difficult decision,like resorting to arms in self-defence or in war.

Yeah, butchering hundreds of thousands of innocent people. Whole nations have been slaughtered under the name of God! Self-defense doesn't explain the slaughter of the "heathens" that God instructed them to kill "every last man and woman and child and animal". Clear conscious? You'd have to by a psychopath to have a clear conscious through that.

6.Religion ensures balance in a life where negative social influences can be increasingly disruptive,immoral and corruptive for the mind.

How is this unique to religion? I can be a morally good person and have a balanced life outside of negative social influences without religion playing a part. Non-unique.
7.As a science of self-improvement,religion offers a therapeutic and success-oriented lifestyle,a victorious way of life.

...what is this, I don't even....? What?
Therapeutic? Explain how religion is therapeutic.
Success-oriented lifestyle? In what way is religion a success-oriented lifestyle, unless you're talking about success at being ignorant and irrational and believing that Biblical giants built the Great Pyramids (lol scottydouglas).
8.Religion prevents deterioration of the mind due to dehumanization and desensitization caused by highly mechanized modern living,thus providing stability.

How does life outside of religion dehumanize and desensitize society?
Also, rational thought prevents the dehumanization as well. Non-unique.
9.True religion is the manifestation of mercy - God's mercy for His Creation and man's mercy towards his fellow-beings and environment(Creation).

Refer back to events such as the Crusades. Yeah, a lot of mercy. And didn't god rain fire down on some village in the Bible because there was a few sinners there? Whole lot of mercy there. Didn't god FLOOD THE ENTIRE PLANET AND COMMIT MASS GENOCIDE? Whole lot of mercy there.
10.Religion prevents us from being carried away by the tides of the times,because a true religion has an eternal value-system.

This is true. Religion will not be carried away by rational thought (a.k.a. the tides of the times) because they know once religion is placed under the spotlight of rationality, it will completely crumble.

Seriously, gtfo. You're doing nothing but making yourself and your religion look idiotic
11.True religion protects the human rights of everyone and prevents their violation.
12.True religion ensures social justice,equality and security for all its adherents.

Social justice. Slaughtering of all the non-believers. Great justice there!
Equality. Explain?
Security? How does this even make sense? xD
13.True religion ensures a happy,holy,healthy mind in a healthy body.

Oh really? I do recall in my brief, 4-year spurt of Christianity from 7th to 10th grade, I was nothing but depressed and sad. I was constantly battling thoughts of suicide and running away. I was constantly fighting with my parents and the people around me. I had started cutting myself and intentionally burning myself. And once I finally decided to give up religion? Well what do you know! Things started getting better.
14.True religion provides for good governance of society and good care of its citizens."

Yes because a theocracy is just the greatest idea. I mean, do you even pay attention to history?
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phantom
Posts: 6,774
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9/9/2012 2:13:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/9/2012 12:14:44 PM, phantom wrote:
Religion has good and bad. That's undeniable. The good is that it gives people hope, a reason to live and be happy, to be moral and also the charity organizations that stem from it.

The bad is the close-mindedness that often comes from it, taking things to the extreme, hating gays, letting your child die since you chose to pray instead of taking her to the hospital, going by old testament laws. Those types of things. It's a mixed bag. That much is certain.

I could also add it has both stimulated progression of science and hindered progression of science.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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9/9/2012 2:32:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/9/2012 1:13:37 PM, Zaradi wrote:
At 9/9/2012 1:06:33 PM, av14 wrote:
At 9/9/2012 11:23:15 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
Excellent argument.

Tell me why religion is good.

Well, it is a form of support, and hope. It is reassuring and encouraging! Do you disagree, and if so, why?

False hope in something that cannot be confirmed to exist, and probably doesn't exist but I wouldn't know

Your honest enough to admit that you don't know, I respect that as many aren't. But if you don't know then that begs the question. Why do you automatically presume that it's false hope??

since it cannot be confirmed, is not hope or support, but rather is a crutch for rational thought.

Can it really be argued that it is not hope or support, when there are so many people who are comforted by their beliefs??
Even if it turned out that God didn't exist after all, at least it gave people a sense of perspective, and guidance on how to treat others and conduct themselves while here on earth. It made them less fearful of becoming wormfood. It eased the transition from conscious thought to bloating and decay.

I've been there, more than once. I've had 2 heart attacks, and my heart has actually stopped 3 times. I can say from experience that the transition is the scariest thing that one will ever go through. Without my belief in God to soothe me at that time, the fright alone probably would have killed me. Imagine what you would feel on the way down, after jumping off a skyscraper. I knew what was happening to me because I'm a paramedic, and I was scared beyond belief, but also concerned about my family. Anything that can give comfort in those last moments is a blessing.

Think of all the (few) great Christian minds and how much further society would be if they had not wasted their time looking for an answer to arguments against God and used their talents to further society.

The same could be said for those who spend their time trying to disprove God.

I want my flying jet cars dammit!
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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9/9/2012 2:57:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
@The above conversation. Hope is the best thing religion offers. Though there are plenty of negative affects of religion, I highly advocate as well as envy its gift of hope. I would in fact be sad if I converted a family member from Christianity. That is because life is sh!t without hope or meaning; to me at least. The people starving and under oppression in third world countries can at least have hope for an after life. And that is a very good thing. Even if it is false hope, it makes them happy this life and there's no way for them to be disappointed if death is the end.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Zaradi
Posts: 14,121
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9/9/2012 3:19:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/9/2012 2:32:16 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 9/9/2012 1:13:37 PM, Zaradi wrote:
At 9/9/2012 1:06:33 PM, av14 wrote:
At 9/9/2012 11:23:15 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
Excellent argument.

Tell me why religion is good.

Well, it is a form of support, and hope. It is reassuring and encouraging! Do you disagree, and if so, why?

False hope in something that cannot be confirmed to exist, and probably doesn't exist but I wouldn't know

Your honest enough to admit that you don't know, I respect that as many aren't. But if you don't know then that begs the question. Why do you automatically presume that it's false hope??

Because religion is something that cannot be confirmed to exist. We can speculate and come up with fun little syllogisms that say that if x and y and z are true, then God probably exists. However, probably isn't a confirmation, but rather a hopeful speculation.

Of course, one could argue that you don't need 100% confirmation on something to have hope that it's true, but I would argue that it seems redundant and pointless to hope for something to come about that you cannot confirm CAN come about. For example, I can hope that, alluding to LOTR:TTT, that Gandalf can come with the Riders of Rohan in time to save me from the Orc onslaught, even if the chances are slim, because I know that he can come. His ability to come is confirmable. However, tying this back to religion, it seems pointless to hope that God exists because I cannot confirm his existence. Thus, making it pointless to place hope in him, thus making it false hope.

since it cannot be confirmed, is not hope or support, but rather is a crutch for rational thought.

Can it really be argued that it is not hope or support, when there are so many people who are comforted by their beliefs??
Even if it turned out that God didn't exist after all, at least it gave people a sense of perspective, and guidance on how to treat others and conduct themselves while here on earth. It made them less fearful of becoming wormfood. It eased the transition from conscious thought to bloating and decay.

Sure, but rational thought has the ability to give people the same comfort, and perspective, and guidance on how to treat people.

I've been there, more than once. I've had 2 heart attacks, and my heart has actually stopped 3 times. I can say from experience that the transition is the scariest thing that one will ever go through. Without my belief in God to soothe me at that time, the fright alone probably would have killed me. Imagine what you would feel on the way down, after jumping off a skyscraper. I knew what was happening to me because I'm a paramedic, and I was scared beyond belief, but also concerned about my family. Anything that can give comfort in those last moments is a blessing.

I'm sorry that you had to go through all of that.

Think of all the (few) great Christian minds and how much further society would be if they had not wasted their time looking for an answer to arguments against God and used their talents to further society.

The same could be said for those who spend their time trying to disprove God.

Touche, but most do make efforts to do so (i.e. scientists, philosophers, etc.)

I want my flying jet cars dammit!
Want to debate? Pick a topic and hit me up! - http://www.debate.org...
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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9/9/2012 4:44:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/9/2012 3:19:18 PM, Zaradi wrote:
At 9/9/2012 2:32:16 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 9/9/2012 1:13:37 PM, Zaradi wrote:
At 9/9/2012 1:06:33 PM, av14 wrote:
At 9/9/2012 11:23:15 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
Excellent argument.

Tell me why religion is good.

Well, it is a form of support, and hope. It is reassuring and encouraging! Do you disagree, and if so, why?

False hope in something that cannot be confirmed to exist, and probably doesn't exist but I wouldn't know

Your honest enough to admit that you don't know, I respect that as many aren't. But if you don't know then that begs the question. Why do you automatically presume that it's false hope??

Because religion is something that cannot be confirmed to exist. We can speculate and come up with fun little syllogisms that say that if x and y and z are true, then God probably exists. However, probably isn't a confirmation, but rather a hopeful speculation.

Of course, one could argue that you don't need 100% confirmation on something to have hope that it's true, but I would argue that it seems redundant and pointless to hope for something to come about that you cannot confirm CAN come about. For example, I can hope that, alluding to LOTR:TTT, that Gandalf can come with the Riders of Rohan in time to save me from the Orc onslaught, even if the chances are slim, because I know that he can come. His ability to come is confirmable. However, tying this back to religion, it seems pointless to hope that God exists because I cannot confirm his existence. Thus, making it pointless to place hope in him, thus making it false hope.

This reasoning may work for for you but obviously it doesn't for everyone. And again, you're argument begins with the unsupported presupposition that a belief in God is a belief in something false.

Hope is not true or false. Hope is simply hope. True and false deal with conclusions, hope is what happens before we know the conclusion. To say that hope is false when so many millions exhibit it is not a valid statement.

You hope for a jet car. If that's what you hope for then I cannot rationally say that it's a false hope, even though they don't exist yet.

since it cannot be confirmed, is not hope or support, but rather is a crutch for rational thought.

Can it really be argued that it is not hope or support, when there are so many people who are comforted by their beliefs??
Even if it turned out that God didn't exist after all, at least it gave people a sense of perspective, and guidance on how to treat others and conduct themselves while here on earth. It made them less fearful of becoming wormfood. It eased the transition from conscious thought to bloating and decay.

Sure, but rational thought has the ability to give people the same comfort, and perspective, and guidance on how to treat people.

If it works for you that's fine, but for others it doesn't work. Once again here, you're presupposing that your thoughts are rational and others' aren't. If you are wrong and they're right, then the guidance you have is likely to be wrong too.

I've been there, more than once. I've had 2 heart attacks, and my heart has actually stopped 3 times. I can say from experience that the transition is the scariest thing that one will ever go through. Without my belief in God to soothe me at that time, the fright alone probably would have killed me. Imagine what you would feel on the way down, after jumping off a skyscraper. I knew what was happening to me because I'm a paramedic, and I was scared beyond belief, but also concerned about my family. Anything that can give comfort in those last moments is a blessing.

I'm sorry that you had to go through all of that.

Thank you. I'm sorry my family had to go through it, but it was a blessing to me, personally. I have a new perspective on life, and I'm amazed at the things I see differently now.

There is great beauty in life, and the world around us, that I never noticed before. When I wake up in the morning and open my eyes, my first thought is "I'm alive!!!". Sounds silly, but from that perspective, I haven't had a bad day since I was introduced to my options. Whoever said, "Any day above ground is a good day", knows what he's talking about.

Think of all the (few) great Christian minds and how much further society would be if they had not wasted their time looking for an answer to arguments against God and used their talents to further society.

The same could be said for those who spend their time trying to disprove God.

Touche, but most do make efforts to do so (i.e. scientists, philosophers, etc.)

And there are many religious people donating time to help in soup kitchens, doing missionary work overseas, etc.

I want my flying jet cars dammit!

Fuggedaboutit, it's a false hope.
Zaradi
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9/9/2012 5:15:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
@ Medic:

You bring up fair points, I have to concede to that. I guess this just leads us to what one considers to be a rational thought or what one considers to be hope is subjective.
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medic0506
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9/9/2012 8:11:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/9/2012 5:15:57 PM, Zaradi wrote:
@ Medic:

You bring up fair points, I have to concede to that. I guess this just leads us to what one considers to be a rational thought or what one considers to be hope is subjective.

I agree with you on hope being subjective. But wouldn't you think that between 2 somewhat intelligement individemals, we could finger out what a rational thought is??