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The Incoherence of Christianity

Microsuck
Posts: 1,562
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9/11/2012 10:48:14 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
My recent article on my blog shows that the God of Christianity, and the theology of Christianity, is incoherent and wrapped in theological garb.

I show how prayer cannot work and, even if God heard you, he cannot do anything about it. I also show that the God of Christianity is logically impossible.

http://reasonalliance.blogspot.com...

Please give me your critique.
Wall of Fail

Devil worship much? - SD
Newsflash: Atheists do not believe in the Devil! - Me
Newsflash: I doesnt matter if you think you do or not.....You do - SD

"you [imabench] are very naive and so i do not consider your opinions as having any merit. you must still be in highschool" - falconduler
TheAsylum
Posts: 772
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9/11/2012 11:11:29 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/11/2012 10:48:14 AM, Microsuck wrote:
My recent article on my blog shows that the God of Christianity, and the theology of Christianity, is incoherent and wrapped in theological garb.

I show how prayer cannot work and, even if God heard you, he cannot do anything about it. I also show that the God of Christianity is logically impossible.

http://reasonalliance.blogspot.com...

Please give me your critique.

You showed? What did you show? I did not see you show anything but your opinion and assertion.
Microsuck
Posts: 1,562
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9/11/2012 11:31:34 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/11/2012 11:11:29 AM, TheAsylum wrote:
At 9/11/2012 10:48:14 AM, Microsuck wrote:
My recent article on my blog shows that the God of Christianity, and the theology of Christianity, is incoherent and wrapped in theological garb.

I show how prayer cannot work and, even if God heard you, he cannot do anything about it. I also show that the God of Christianity is logically impossible.

http://reasonalliance.blogspot.com...

Please give me your critique.

You showed? What did you show? I did not see you show anything but your opinion and assertion.

*Facepalm*
Wall of Fail

Devil worship much? - SD
Newsflash: Atheists do not believe in the Devil! - Me
Newsflash: I doesnt matter if you think you do or not.....You do - SD

"you [imabench] are very naive and so i do not consider your opinions as having any merit. you must still be in highschool" - falconduler
bafoofkit
Posts: 2
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9/11/2012 11:31:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Maybe logically but also physically impossible. Seems that claims of a god that are infinite are countered by the fact that anything infinite in a finite space would collapse. So god can't be anywhere.
THEBOMB
Posts: 2,872
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9/11/2012 11:42:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Prayer Paradox

"First, let's consider the fact that God's decrees are eternal (Numbers 23:19). If God's decrees are eternal, how then can our prayers have any effect on the outcome. Because God's decrees are eternal, they cannot change. Because they cannot change, God is powerless to change them regardless of prayer or requests made to God."

So an all-powerful God does not have the power to change his own decrees?

"Second, let's consider the attributes of God. By definition, God is all-knowing. Because he is all knowing, he knows the future. If one knows the future, you are powerless to change the future (indeed, if you were to know for a fact that tomorrow I would be killed in a car accident, how can you change that?). Consequently, it is impossible for God to change the future. However, if God changed the future it proves that God did not know the future to begin with."

God knows what He will do before He does it. Ad infinitum.

Incompatible Properties.

"First, as noted above God cannot be both all-knowing and answer prayers because if God answered prayers it implies that he did not know the future."

How does this make sense? Simply because God knows you will pray and that He knows whether He will answer the prayer does not in any way imply He did not know the future.

"Second, we can note that God is supposedly all-powerful and all-knowing. Again, if God is all-powerful, God can change the future. However, if he is all-knowing, he cannot for how can he if He knows everything -- including the future?"

See above. God knows what He will do before He does it. Ad infinitum.

"Third, God is defined by the Catholic Almanac as:

almighty, eternal, holy, immortal, immense, immutable, incomprehensible, ineffable, infinite, invisible, just, loving, merciful, most high, most wise, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, patient, perfect, provident, supreme, true.[2]

How can God be both incomprehensible and ineffable? Indeed, how can the other attributes of God be known if he can neither be understood nor described?"

We don't know the true attributes of God. The only reason these attributes are applied to God is an attempt to label God in order to be able to talk about God. By saying God is X, that limits God which is impossible. The labels placed on what God is, are not what God is. It is what man, with their limited understanding of God say God is. The reality is, you cannot describe in words something that transcends human experince. Simply put, if you describe God, you limit God in your mind.
MouthWash
Posts: 2,607
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9/11/2012 2:30:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/11/2012 10:48:14 AM, Microsuck wrote:
My recent article on my blog shows that the God of Christianity, and the theology of Christianity, is incoherent and wrapped in theological garb.

I show how prayer cannot work and, even if God heard you, he cannot do anything about it. I also show that the God of Christianity is logically impossible.

http://reasonalliance.blogspot.com...

Please give me your critique.

Apparently religion is one of the things it seems everyone is qualified to rant on about no matter how much or how little they know about it. Give it a rest.
"Well, that gives whole new meaning to my assassination. If I was going to die anyway, perhaps I should leave the Bolsheviks' descendants some Christmas cookies instead of breaking their dishes and vodka bottles in their sleep." -Tsar Nicholas II (YYW)
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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9/11/2012 2:58:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/11/2012 11:42:12 AM, THEBOMB wrote:
Prayer Paradox

"First, let's consider the fact that God's decrees are eternal (Numbers 23:19). If God's decrees are eternal, how then can our prayers have any effect on the outcome. Because God's decrees are eternal, they cannot change. Because they cannot change, God is powerless to change them regardless of prayer or requests made to God."

So an all-powerful God does not have the power to change his own decrees?

"Second, let's consider the attributes of God. By definition, God is all-knowing. Because he is all knowing, he knows the future. If one knows the future, you are powerless to change the future (indeed, if you were to know for a fact that tomorrow I would be killed in a car accident, how can you change that?). Consequently, it is impossible for God to change the future. However, if God changed the future it proves that God did not know the future to begin with."

God knows what He will do before He does it. Ad infinitum.

We pray for Gods will to be done, and for him to reveal it to us.

Romans 8:26
26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans.

Your entire concept of prayer is wrong, so your entire point is useless.

Even if your false conception of prayer, and its use, were valid, you forgot to account for the fact God would know what man was going to pray for, and thus could account for this predetermined request before it occured.

Incompatible Properties.

"First, as noted above God cannot be both all-knowing and answer prayers because if God answered prayers it implies that he did not know the future."

Refuted^

How does this make sense? Simply because God knows you will pray and that He knows whether He will answer the prayer does not in any way imply He did not know the future.

He determines everything..

"Second, we can note that God is supposedly all-powerful and all-knowing. Again, if God is all-powerful, God can change the future. However, if he is all-knowing, he cannot for how can he if He knows everything -- including the future?"

See above. God knows what He will do before He does it. Ad infinitum.

"Third, God is defined by the Catholic Almanac as:

almighty, eternal, holy, immortal, immense, immutable, incomprehensible, ineffable, infinite, invisible, just, loving, merciful, most high, most wise, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, patient, perfect, provident, supreme, true.[2]

How can God be both incomprehensible and ineffable? Indeed, how can the other attributes of God be known if he can neither be understood nor described?"

Simple, you use broad terms. We cannot fully understand him, but he's given us what we need to partially comprehend his greatness.. If we fully understod god, we would be God.

We are like infants in this life, and the 'milk' of the spirit is for our growth and understanding of him.

We don't know the true attributes of God. The only reason these attributes are applied to God is an attempt to label God in order to be able to talk about God. By saying God is X, that limits God which is impossible. The labels placed on what God is, are not what God is. It is what man, with their limited understanding of God say God is. The reality is, you cannot describe in words something that transcends human experince. Simply put, if you describe God, you limit God in your mind.

Further more, you could not have any idea of God, unless he were real.

God asserts the same thing, we cannot comprehend all his ways, nor can we understand any of them, unless he allows us too..

14 God said to Moses, "I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I am has sent me to you.'"
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
THEBOMB
Posts: 2,872
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9/11/2012 3:34:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/11/2012 2:58:17 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 9/11/2012 11:42:12 AM, THEBOMB wrote:
Prayer Paradox

"First, let's consider the fact that God's decrees are eternal (Numbers 23:19). If God's decrees are eternal, how then can our prayers have any effect on the outcome. Because God's decrees are eternal, they cannot change. Because they cannot change, God is powerless to change them regardless of prayer or requests made to God."

So an all-powerful God does not have the power to change his own decrees?

"Second, let's consider the attributes of God. By definition, God is all-knowing. Because he is all knowing, he knows the future. If one knows the future, you are powerless to change the future (indeed, if you were to know for a fact that tomorrow I would be killed in a car accident, how can you change that?). Consequently, it is impossible for God to change the future. However, if God changed the future it proves that God did not know the future to begin with."

God knows what He will do before He does it. Ad infinitum.

We pray for Gods will to be done, and for him to reveal it to us.

Romans 8:26
26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans.

Your entire concept of prayer is wrong, so your entire point is useless.

Even if your false conception of prayer, and its use, were valid, you forgot to account for the fact God would know what man was going to pray for, and thus could account for this predetermined request before it occured.

Considering I was providing analysis as to why he was wrong...

Even if the conception of prayer is wrong, God knows what God will do before He does it (being all-knowing and all). Thus, God knows the future and what He will do to "change" the future. (Whatever the heck that means :P) I just didn't have time to elaborate, and still don't...


Incompatible Properties.

"First, as noted above God cannot be both all-knowing and answer prayers because if God answered prayers it implies that he did not know the future."

Refuted^

How does this make sense? Simply because God knows you will pray and that He knows whether He will answer the prayer does not in any way imply He did not know the future.

He determines everything..

Lol once again a critique. God is omniscient. That's the point.


"Second, we can note that God is supposedly all-powerful and all-knowing. Again, if God is all-powerful, God can change the future. However, if he is all-knowing, he cannot for how can he if He knows everything -- including the future?"

See above. God knows what He will do before He does it. Ad infinitum.

"Third, God is defined by the Catholic Almanac as:

almighty, eternal, holy, immortal, immense, immutable, incomprehensible, ineffable, infinite, invisible, just, loving, merciful, most high, most wise, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, patient, perfect, provident, supreme, true.[2]

How can God be both incomprehensible and ineffable? Indeed, how can the other attributes of God be known if he can neither be understood nor described?"

Simple, you use broad terms. We cannot fully understand him, but he's given us what we need to partially comprehend his greatness.. If we fully understod god, we would be God.

We are like infants in this life, and the 'milk' of the spirit is for our growth and understanding of him.

We don't know the true attributes of God. The only reason these attributes are applied to God is an attempt to label God in order to be able to talk about God. By saying God is X, that limits God which is impossible. The labels placed on what God is, are not what God is. It is what man, with their limited understanding of God say God is. The reality is, you cannot describe in words something that transcends human experince. Simply put, if you describe God, you limit God in your mind.

Further more, you could not have any idea of God, unless he were real.

God asserts the same thing, we cannot comprehend all his ways, nor can we understand any of them, unless he allows us too..

14 God said to Moses, "I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I am has sent me to you.'"

Paradox, I agree with most of what you are saying...I was doing my best to provide criticism in a short amount of time...
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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9/11/2012 6:34:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The definition of God that Christians supply is incoherent. In fact, it can be shown that the core belief of Christianity is incoherent.

We do not "define" God, in the literal sense of the word. Rather, we speak about what we know of His character, from the Bible. Man cannot grasp the totality of God, so if we try to define Him, we limit Him. Any argument that is strictly based on what it calls a "definition" of God, fails.

Before we begin, it is important to define what we mean be "incoherent." By incoherent I refer to the fact that Christianity is impossible -- in other words, it is logically impossible for Christianity to be true.

The definition of incoherent is Christianity is impossible??? Are you sure it"s not this paragraph that is incoherent??

I. The Prayer Paradox

First, let's consider prayer. Prayer is an essential aspect to Christianity. According to Christian theology, prayer is communication with God. It is how Christians convey confessions, requests, intercessions, thanksgiving, etc. [1]

The problem with prayer is the fact that it can be shown positively that prayer cannot work. Prayer can have absolutely no effect on the outcome of any type of event or outcome.

This ought to be good"*gets popcorn and soda*

First, let's consider the fact that God's decrees are eternal (Numbers 23:19). If God's decrees are eternal, how then can our prayers have any effect on the outcome. Because God's decrees are eternal, they cannot change. Because they cannot change, God is powerless to change them regardless of prayer or requests made to God.

This is refuted in Ezekiel 33:13-16. The Lord speaks to Ezekiel and tells him that He will change His mind, and all of those examples are in response to man"s actions. The Bible speaks of many things that are indeed unchangeable, but also speaks of many things that are changeable, based on our actions.

Second, let's consider the attributes of God. By definition, God is all-knowing. Because he is all knowing, he knows the future. If one knows the future, you are powerless to change the future (indeed, if you were to know for a fact that tomorrow I would be killed in a car accident, how can you change that?). Consequently, it is impossible for God to change the future. However, if God changed the future it proves that God did not know the future to begin with.

Man wouldn"t have the ability to change events if he knew the future, but God does. How do you know that God didn"t know ahead of time that He was going to intercede?? You call it changing His mind but I don"t see it that way. I see it as though God has set a course, and God can alter that course in response to man"s actions, so long as it is in keeping with God"s will.

The prayer paradox fails as an argument against God.

II. Incompatible Properties

The God of Christianity is absolutely meaningless. Not only that, the God of Christianity has incompatible properties meaning that properties within God are impossible to co-exist.

You haven"t shown this to be true. In addition, you"re judging what God can be based on the limitations that you know man has. God is unlimited but you are trying to place limits on Him.

First, as noted above God cannot be both all-knowing and answer prayers because if God answered prayers it implies that he did not know the future.

Already refuted.

Second, we can note that God is supposedly all-powerful and all-knowing. Again, if God is all-powerful, God can change the future. However, if he is all-knowing, he cannot for how can he if He knows everything -- including the future?

Already answered.

Third, God is defined by the Catholic Almanac as:

almighty, eternal, holy, immortal, immense, immutable, incomprehensible, ineffable, infinite, invisible, just, loving, merciful, most high, most wise, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, patient, perfect, provident, supreme, true.[2]

How can God be both incomprehensible and ineffable? Indeed, how can the other attributes of God be known if he can neither be understood nor described?

The conclusion of the matter is thus: The Theology of Christianity is nothing more than meaningless, contradictory, and incoherent concepts wrapped in theological garb.

Because we can"t understand Him in totality, doesn"t mean we can"t know certain things about His character.

If this article is any indication, your opinion of Christianity is based on flawed reasoning.
JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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9/12/2012 12:11:20 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
-----Prayer-----

Numbers 23:19[NIV]
"God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?"

How does that say that God can't answer prayers? If He says He will answer them, then will He not fulfill that?

Also, it can *not* be shown that prayer doesn't work. There is no scientific test that can prove that. I have seen it work personally, beyond a shadow of a doubt. I have seen men give blessings to other people, and specifically mention the ailments or troubles that the person is going through, with no prior knowledge. I have witnessed healing, and experienced it myself. So forgive me if I don't accept your word that prayer has been shown to not work.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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9/12/2012 12:15:49 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
-----Knowing the Future-----

Consider this: I take a basketball in my hands, and I decide to drop it. I know that when I drop it, the ball will fall and bounce. I know that before it happens. Does that mean I am powerless to keep that from happening?

Knowing what will happen based on choice doesn't eliminate choice from the equation.

If God knows that tomorrow I will ask for X, and knows that He will do Y to help me, then He knows what will happen, but He knows because He is the one who is going to make it happen.

So let's look at the example again. I decide to drop the basketball. I know it will fall and bounce if I do nothing to interfere. I know that I can stop the ball from bouncing by catching it. I decide to let it fall, and I know what is going to happen before it happens. Did my choice, which defined what would happen, diminish from my choice?
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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9/12/2012 12:21:18 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
-----Incompatible Properties-----

First, as noted above God cannot be both all-knowing and answer prayers because if God answered prayers it implies that he did not know the future.

Not true. God knows me perfectly well. He already knows what I am going to pray for, and how He is going to answer. It's still his answer. Knowing what choice you are going to make beforehand doesn't diminish the fact that it is your choice being made, and your choice is what causes something to happen.

Second, we can note that God is supposedly all-powerful and all-knowing. Again, if God is all-powerful, God can change the future. However, if he is all-knowing, he cannot for how can he if He knows everything -- including the future?

The future is only 'fixed' in the sense that what is going to happen is going to happen. He has the ability to determine what happens in the future, and He knows what is going to happen because He is the ultimate cause for it happening.

Also, the term 'all powerful' clearly means that God can do anything that can be done. It is never meant in the sense that God can do things that can't be done(God can't create a boulder too heavy for himself to lift, for example).

Third, God is defined by the Catholic Almanac as:

almighty, eternal, holy, immortal, immense, immutable, incomprehensible, ineffable, infinite, invisible, just, loving, merciful, most high, most wise, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, patient, perfect, provident, supreme, true.[2]

How can God be both incomprehensible and ineffable? Indeed, how can the other attributes of God be known if he can neither be understood nor described?

The Catholic Almanac is not the source of Christian beliefs.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13