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TheAsylum's Biblical discussion-Old Testament

EvanK
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9/13/2012 7:57:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
This is part of a series of Biblical discussions started by TheAsylum, and I have been given the go ahead to post the topic I'd like to discuss, which is the Old Testament. More specifically, how the Old Testament is immoral, and what that means to Christianity (probably beating a dead horse), but Jews may very well give their insight as well, after all, the OT is their book! :D

I hope I don't bore the readers with my long post, and I do assure you my views are genuine, I am not trying to bash anyone's religious views. Anyway, on to my point.

Christians believe (at least those I have spoken with) that Christ was sent to Earth not only to save the human race, but to abolish the old laws, the Jewish laws of the Old Testament, and replace them with new laws. But I believe that the atrocious events that take place in the Old Testament due to God are detestable, and cannot be made up for by simply changing the old laws of the OT. What I mean is, innocent people suffered and died due to acts sanctioned by God in the OT, and that a loving God wouldn't ever sanction such atrocious acts.

Some of those acts include the slaughter of the Amalekites *(Samuel 1, chapter 15, verse 3-"Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and a$$.") and the Passover, *(Exodus, chapter 12, verse 12-"For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord.") an event that Jews still celebrate to this day. In these two events alone, God is directly responsible for the deaths of innocent children, as well as other innocent individuals. There was no reason for it. The Pharaoh, for example, was the one who wouldn't release the Jewish slaves, why on Earth does God punish innocent children in order to release these slaves? Surely, an omnipotent God could simply will the slaves freed, a procedure which wouldn't result in the deaths of dozens, hundreds, perhaps thousands of innocent people, including women and children.

One more specific immoral act sanctioned by God, which directly harmed individuals, was the enslavement of innocent women, and having them become the wives of the Jews' against their will *(Deuteronomy chapter 21, 10-14). This wasn't the only crime against women, if I remember correctly, but the only one I will list.

All of these acts sanctioned by God, and more, are in my opinion detestable, and are certainly not something I would expect from a "loving" God; are acts that are inexcusable by an all powerful, supreme and loving deity, and that by simply sending Christ to abolish old laws does nothing to reconcile those who needlessly suffered on account of the events directly caused by this deity. My point is, these events and more, show that the Judeo-Christian God is not an all loving being, and that Judeo-Christian morals are based on an immoral God, and that there very well cannot be an acceptable moral system, when it is based on the word of God which can change at any time. What I mean is, murder is wrong, unless God changes his mind and decides that murdering innocent people is the best course of action, and so murder is magically no longer wrong.

There is more I wish to discuss, but I think I have put enough on the table for now, so I will let you give your insights on my view.

*King James Bible, http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org...
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
THEBOMB
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9/13/2012 8:11:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Just curious, by what basis are you defining love and morality? and why is God bound to the human conception of morality?
EvanK
Posts: 599
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9/13/2012 8:24:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/13/2012 8:11:53 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
Just curious, by what basis are you defining love and morality? and why is God bound to the human conception of morality?

According to Christians I talk to regularly (I don't like generalizing), God is the basis of our morality. Without him, they argue, we cannot say what is right and what is wrong. I find that observaton to be false. First, there was morality far before Christianity or Judaism showed up. People weren't regularly killing each other, or robbing from each other, etc. There were civilizations with laws protecting against these crimes. They weren't based on the Judeo-Christian God. My basis for morality is based off of the fact that murder is wrong, because I don't want to be murdered, and it hurts society. Stealing is wrong, because I wouldn't want to be robbed, and again, it hurts society. Rape is wrong, because, while I'm not a woman, I still wouldn't want to be raped and believe it is an atrocity, damaging society greatly. God is guilty of these crimes, so why exactly are we basing our morality off of his "word"?
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
TheAsylum
Posts: 772
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9/13/2012 8:32:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/13/2012 8:24:27 PM, EvanK wrote:
EvanK, when I get more time to fully go over your post, I will. You should supply why you think these people are innocent?
EvanK
Posts: 599
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9/13/2012 8:39:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/13/2012 8:32:23 PM, TheAsylum wrote:
At 9/13/2012 8:24:27 PM, EvanK wrote:
EvanK, when I get more time to fully go over your post, I will. You should supply why you think these people are innocent?

The Egyptian children who were violently murdered, were not guilty of any crime, much less enslaving Jews. And in a time of female oppression, it is laughable to suggest that the women enslaved by the Jews were guilty of any great crime. And again, the children of the Amalekites, were, well, children! Again, just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Again, to assume that the women and children killed by God are guilty of some crime is laughable.

Furthermore, regardless of how "guilty" they are, I don't think a loving God would kill humans in the way he did in the OT.
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
TheAsylum
Posts: 772
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9/13/2012 8:42:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/13/2012 8:24:27 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 9/13/2012 8:11:53 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
Just curious, by what basis are you defining love and morality? and why is God bound to the human conception of morality?

According to Christians I talk to regularly (I don't like generalizing), God is the basis of our morality. Without him, they argue, we cannot say what is right and what is wrong. I find that observaton to be false. First, there was morality far before Christianity or Judaism showed up. People weren't regularly killing each other, or robbing from each other, etc. There were civilizations with laws protecting against these crimes. They weren't based on the Judeo-Christian God. My basis for morality is based off of the fact that murder is wrong, because I don't want to be murdered, and it hurts society. Stealing is wrong, because I wouldn't want to be robbed, and again, it hurts society. Rape is wrong, because, while I'm not a woman, I still wouldn't want to be raped and believe it is an atrocity, damaging society greatly. God is guilty of these crimes, so why exactly are we basing our morality off of his "word"?

You are implying wrong. God created man and in creating man, He gave us the senses. These senses can judge what is good and bad. You do not need to be religious or have the Bible to have them. You do not need to reconize God to have them. This is clearly presented by athiest, who reject God, but still can be moral people.
THEBOMB
Posts: 2,872
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9/13/2012 8:47:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/13/2012 8:24:27 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 9/13/2012 8:11:53 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
Just curious, by what basis are you defining love and morality? and why is God bound to the human conception of morality?

According to Christians I talk to regularly (I don't like generalizing), God is the basis of our morality. Without him, they argue, we cannot say what is right and what is wrong. I find that observaton to be false. First, there was morality far before Christianity or Judaism showed up. People weren't regularly killing each other, or robbing from each other, etc. There were civilizations with laws protecting against these crimes. They weren't based on the Judeo-Christian God. My basis for morality is based off of the fact that murder is wrong, because I don't want to be murdered, and it hurts society. Stealing is wrong, because I wouldn't want to be robbed, and again, it hurts society. Rape is wrong, because, while I'm not a woman, I still wouldn't want to be raped and believe it is an atrocity, damaging society greatly. God is guilty of these crimes, so why exactly are we basing our morality off of his "word"?

God may be the basis of morality, but with our limited understand (we are not omniscient) how can we be sure what is truly moral? Only the divine can. We have an understanding of morality, but divine law and divine morality is different from human law and human morality.
EvanK
Posts: 599
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9/13/2012 8:48:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/13/2012 8:42:31 PM, TheAsylum wrote:
At 9/13/2012 8:24:27 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 9/13/2012 8:11:53 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
Just curious, by what basis are you defining love and morality? and why is God bound to the human conception of morality?

According to Christians I talk to regularly (I don't like generalizing), God is the basis of our morality. Without him, they argue, we cannot say what is right and what is wrong. I find that observaton to be false. First, there was morality far before Christianity or Judaism showed up. People weren't regularly killing each other, or robbing from each other, etc. There were civilizations with laws protecting against these crimes. They weren't based on the Judeo-Christian God. My basis for morality is based off of the fact that murder is wrong, because I don't want to be murdered, and it hurts society. Stealing is wrong, because I wouldn't want to be robbed, and again, it hurts society. Rape is wrong, because, while I'm not a woman, I still wouldn't want to be raped and believe it is an atrocity, damaging society greatly. God is guilty of these crimes, so why exactly are we basing our morality off of his "word"?

You are implying wrong. God created man and in creating man, He gave us the senses. These senses can judge what is good and bad. You do not need to be religious or have the Bible to have them. You do not need to reconize God to have them. This is clearly presented by athiest, who reject God, but still can be moral people.

I have a long list of reasons to reject Christianity, and God in general, and am actually preparing for a debate on the matter, so perhaps you'll see them there.

But by implying that our morals come from God, is wrong if you can't prove he existed, or at least give good evidence.

I don't see how a moral and loving God condones such attrocities as he did in the OT. Killing innocent children is absolutely wrong, and is not permissable in any case, in my opinion, I don't care if God "created" them or not. If you believe he did create us, and you do believe that what happened in the OT is good, then you must at least admit God is not all loving as he claims to be, and I certainly refuse to base my morals off of a God that is willing to kill children simply to free slaves who could have been freed by other manners.
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
EvanK
Posts: 599
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9/13/2012 8:54:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/13/2012 8:47:02 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
At 9/13/2012 8:24:27 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 9/13/2012 8:11:53 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
Just curious, by what basis are you defining love and morality? and why is God bound to the human conception of morality?

According to Christians I talk to regularly (I don't like generalizing), God is the basis of our morality. Without him, they argue, we cannot say what is right and what is wrong. I find that observaton to be false. First, there was morality far before Christianity or Judaism showed up. People weren't regularly killing each other, or robbing from each other, etc. There were civilizations with laws protecting against these crimes. They weren't based on the Judeo-Christian God. My basis for morality is based off of the fact that murder is wrong, because I don't want to be murdered, and it hurts society. Stealing is wrong, because I wouldn't want to be robbed, and again, it hurts society. Rape is wrong, because, while I'm not a woman, I still wouldn't want to be raped and believe it is an atrocity, damaging society greatly. God is guilty of these crimes, so why exactly are we basing our morality off of his "word"?

God may be the basis of morality, but with our limited understand (we are not omniscient) how can we be sure what is truly moral? Only the divine can. We have an understanding of morality, but divine law and divine morality is different from human law and human morality.

In my opinion, human morality is all that exists. For example, 250 years ago, it would be absolutely moral to have a public hanging, or to tar and feather someone publicly. Nowadays, find someone who's not a psychopath who would agree with it. But that's because our morals have changed.

Or, if you want a religious example, how about burning witches at the stake? Again, it was completely moral, until we finally decided that is wasn't, that it was superstitious and wrong to do so, and the ritual was stopped and taught as immoral.

My point is, none of our morality has ever come from God. We invented it! We figured out over thousands of years what is right and wrong, and we are still doing so! Of course human law and morality isn't perfect, that's because we're human! But the divine morality and divine law I see is far from perfect, and even less so than human morality, in my opinion. Again, because the "divine law" and "divine morality" was another concept invented by humans!
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
TheAsylum
Posts: 772
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9/13/2012 8:57:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/13/2012 8:48:46 PM, EvanK wrote:

I don't see how a moral and loving God condones such attrocities as he did in the OT. Killing innocent children is absolutely wrong, and is not permissable in any case, in my opinion, I don't care if God "created" them or not. If you believe he did create us, and you do believe that what happened in the OT is good, then you must at least admit God is not all loving as he claims to be, and I certainly refuse to base my morals off of a God that is willing to kill children simply to free slaves who could have been freed by other manners.:

I hope you are willing to accept the facts. If so then maybe you will learn something and if not then this discussion will be pointless. Like I said when time fully permits I will respond in full. I got a debate and other things going to respond in a correct manner to your post. Maybe someone will before I do. Either way I will throw my two cents out there. Good post and questions BTW. This will go far into showing what our faith really came from and why.
THEBOMB
Posts: 2,872
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9/13/2012 8:57:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/13/2012 8:54:39 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 9/13/2012 8:47:02 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
At 9/13/2012 8:24:27 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 9/13/2012 8:11:53 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
Just curious, by what basis are you defining love and morality? and why is God bound to the human conception of morality?

According to Christians I talk to regularly (I don't like generalizing), God is the basis of our morality. Without him, they argue, we cannot say what is right and what is wrong. I find that observaton to be false. First, there was morality far before Christianity or Judaism showed up. People weren't regularly killing each other, or robbing from each other, etc. There were civilizations with laws protecting against these crimes. They weren't based on the Judeo-Christian God. My basis for morality is based off of the fact that murder is wrong, because I don't want to be murdered, and it hurts society. Stealing is wrong, because I wouldn't want to be robbed, and again, it hurts society. Rape is wrong, because, while I'm not a woman, I still wouldn't want to be raped and believe it is an atrocity, damaging society greatly. God is guilty of these crimes, so why exactly are we basing our morality off of his "word"?

God may be the basis of morality, but with our limited understand (we are not omniscient) how can we be sure what is truly moral? Only the divine can. We have an understanding of morality, but divine law and divine morality is different from human law and human morality.

In my opinion, human morality is all that exists. For example, 250 years ago, it would be absolutely moral to have a public hanging, or to tar and feather someone publicly. Nowadays, find someone who's not a psychopath who would agree with it. But that's because our morals have changed.

Or, if you want a religious example, how about burning witches at the stake? Again, it was completely moral, until we finally decided that is wasn't, that it was superstitious and wrong to do so, and the ritual was stopped and taught as immoral.

My point is, none of our morality has ever come from God. We invented it! We figured out over thousands of years what is right and wrong, and we are still doing so! Of course human law and morality isn't perfect, that's because we're human! But the divine morality and divine law I see is far from perfect, and even less so than human morality, in my opinion. Again, because the "divine law" and "divine morality" was another concept invented by humans!

Arguments over what is moral and not does not disprove that there could be a divinely inspired objective morality. (Morality from God).
EvanK
Posts: 599
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9/13/2012 9:03:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/13/2012 8:57:36 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
At 9/13/2012 8:54:39 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 9/13/2012 8:47:02 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
At 9/13/2012 8:24:27 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 9/13/2012 8:11:53 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
Just curious, by what basis are you defining love and morality? and why is God bound to the human conception of morality?

According to Christians I talk to regularly (I don't like generalizing), God is the basis of our morality. Without him, they argue, we cannot say what is right and what is wrong. I find that observaton to be false. First, there was morality far before Christianity or Judaism showed up. People weren't regularly killing each other, or robbing from each other, etc. There were civilizations with laws protecting against these crimes. They weren't based on the Judeo-Christian God. My basis for morality is based off of the fact that murder is wrong, because I don't want to be murdered, and it hurts society. Stealing is wrong, because I wouldn't want to be robbed, and again, it hurts society. Rape is wrong, because, while I'm not a woman, I still wouldn't want to be raped and believe it is an atrocity, damaging society greatly. God is guilty of these crimes, so why exactly are we basing our morality off of his "word"?

God may be the basis of morality, but with our limited understand (we are not omniscient) how can we be sure what is truly moral? Only the divine can. We have an understanding of morality, but divine law and divine morality is different from human law and human morality.

In my opinion, human morality is all that exists. For example, 250 years ago, it would be absolutely moral to have a public hanging, or to tar and feather someone publicly. Nowadays, find someone who's not a psychopath who would agree with it. But that's because our morals have changed.

Or, if you want a religious example, how about burning witches at the stake? Again, it was completely moral, until we finally decided that is wasn't, that it was superstitious and wrong to do so, and the ritual was stopped and taught as immoral.

My point is, none of our morality has ever come from God. We invented it! We figured out over thousands of years what is right and wrong, and we are still doing so! Of course human law and morality isn't perfect, that's because we're human! But the divine morality and divine law I see is far from perfect, and even less so than human morality, in my opinion. Again, because the "divine law" and "divine morality" was another concept invented by humans!

Arguments over what is moral and not does not disprove that there could be a divinely inspired objective morality. (Morality from God).

No, but I have my reasons for not believing in God, that aren't really relevant to this discussion. My point is, objective morality from an all loving father figure called God is a ridiculous claim given his track record. That was my point, and I haven't heard any reasonable arguments against the egregious acts in the OT, other than we don't know what God's intentions are. In other words, we don't know, period. Not to sound snobby, but that isn't near good enough for me to accept the Judeo-Christian God as my creator and live by the moral system that he supposedly put in place. I believe that a God that is both omnipotent, and loving and caring, could very easily have solved the problems put forth in the OT, rather than solving it the human way, by slaughtering/enslaving everything in his path! Including, women and children.
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
EvanK
Posts: 599
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9/13/2012 9:04:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/13/2012 8:57:27 PM, TheAsylum wrote:
At 9/13/2012 8:48:46 PM, EvanK wrote:

I don't see how a moral and loving God condones such attrocities as he did in the OT. Killing innocent children is absolutely wrong, and is not permissable in any case, in my opinion, I don't care if God "created" them or not. If you believe he did create us, and you do believe that what happened in the OT is good, then you must at least admit God is not all loving as he claims to be, and I certainly refuse to base my morals off of a God that is willing to kill children simply to free slaves who could have been freed by other manners.:

I hope you are willing to accept the facts. If so then maybe you will learn something and if not then this discussion will be pointless. Like I said when time fully permits I will respond in full. I got a debate and other things going to respond in a correct manner to your post. Maybe someone will before I do. Either way I will throw my two cents out there. Good post and questions BTW. This will go far into showing what our faith really came from and why.

Depends on the facts, everyone claims to have facts, but not all facts can be correct, now can they? :P

I patiently await your response.
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
THEBOMB
Posts: 2,872
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9/13/2012 9:06:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Just curious, by what basis are you defining love and morality? and why is God bound to the human conception of morality?

According to Christians I talk to regularly (I don't like generalizing), God is the basis of our morality. Without him, they argue, we cannot say what is right and what is wrong. I find that observaton to be false. First, there was morality far before Christianity or Judaism showed up. People weren't regularly killing each other, or robbing from each other, etc. There were civilizations with laws protecting against these crimes. They weren't based on the Judeo-Christian God. My basis for morality is based off of the fact that murder is wrong, because I don't want to be murdered, and it hurts society. Stealing is wrong, because I wouldn't want to be robbed, and again, it hurts society. Rape is wrong, because, while I'm not a woman, I still wouldn't want to be raped and believe it is an atrocity, damaging society greatly. God is guilty of these crimes, so why exactly are we basing our morality off of his "word"?

God may be the basis of morality, but with our limited understand (we are not omniscient) how can we be sure what is truly moral? Only the divine can. We have an understanding of morality, but divine law and divine morality is different from human law and human morality.

In my opinion, human morality is all that exists. For example, 250 years ago, it would be absolutely moral to have a public hanging, or to tar and feather someone publicly. Nowadays, find someone who's not a psychopath who would agree with it. But that's because our morals have changed.

Or, if you want a religious example, how about burning witches at the stake? Again, it was completely moral, until we finally decided that is wasn't, that it was superstitious and wrong to do so, and the ritual was stopped and taught as immoral.

My point is, none of our morality has ever come from God. We invented it! We figured out over thousands of years what is right and wrong, and we are still doing so! Of course human law and morality isn't perfect, that's because we're human! But the divine morality and divine law I see is far from perfect, and even less so than human morality, in my opinion. Again, because the "divine law" and "divine morality" was another concept invented by humans!

Arguments over what is moral and not does not disprove that there could be a divinely inspired objective morality. (Morality from God).

No, but I have my reasons for not believing in God, that aren't really relevant to this discussion. My point is, objective morality from an all loving father figure called God is a ridiculous claim given his track record. That was my point, and I haven't heard any reasonable arguments against the egregious acts in the OT, other than we don't know what God's intentions are. In other words, we don't know, period. Not to sound snobby, but that isn't near good enough for me to accept the Judeo-Christian God as my creator and live by the moral system that he supposedly put in place. I believe that a God that is both omnipotent, and loving and caring, could very easily have solved the problems put forth in the OT, rather than solving it the human way, by slaughtering/enslaving everything in his path! Including, women and children.

Okay, that's the mystery of Christianity. You basically don't know anything. You don't know what God's intentions are. You don't know what morality and love mean in a divine sense. You simply don't know. What it comes down to is faith. You either have faith or don't. There is no logical argument which can show you God is real and true.
EvanK
Posts: 599
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9/13/2012 9:12:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/13/2012 9:06:20 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
Just curious, by what basis are you defining love and morality? and why is God bound to the human conception of morality?

According to Christians I talk to regularly (I don't like generalizing), God is the basis of our morality. Without him, they argue, we cannot say what is right and what is wrong. I find that observaton to be false. First, there was morality far before Christianity or Judaism showed up. People weren't regularly killing each other, or robbing from each other, etc. There were civilizations with laws protecting against these crimes. They weren't based on the Judeo-Christian God. My basis for morality is based off of the fact that murder is wrong, because I don't want to be murdered, and it hurts society. Stealing is wrong, because I wouldn't want to be robbed, and again, it hurts society. Rape is wrong, because, while I'm not a woman, I still wouldn't want to be raped and believe it is an atrocity, damaging society greatly. God is guilty of these crimes, so why exactly are we basing our morality off of his "word"?

God may be the basis of morality, but with our limited understand (we are not omniscient) how can we be sure what is truly moral? Only the divine can. We have an understanding of morality, but divine law and divine morality is different from human law and human morality.

In my opinion, human morality is all that exists. For example, 250 years ago, it would be absolutely moral to have a public hanging, or to tar and feather someone publicly. Nowadays, find someone who's not a psychopath who would agree with it. But that's because our morals have changed.

Or, if you want a religious example, how about burning witches at the stake? Again, it was completely moral, until we finally decided that is wasn't, that it was superstitious and wrong to do so, and the ritual was stopped and taught as immoral.

My point is, none of our morality has ever come from God. We invented it! We figured out over thousands of years what is right and wrong, and we are still doing so! Of course human law and morality isn't perfect, that's because we're human! But the divine morality and divine law I see is far from perfect, and even less so than human morality, in my opinion. Again, because the "divine law" and "divine morality" was another concept invented by humans!

Arguments over what is moral and not does not disprove that there could be a divinely inspired objective morality. (Morality from God).

No, but I have my reasons for not believing in God, that aren't really relevant to this discussion. My point is, objective morality from an all loving father figure called God is a ridiculous claim given his track record. That was my point, and I haven't heard any reasonable arguments against the egregious acts in the OT, other than we don't know what God's intentions are. In other words, we don't know, period. Not to sound snobby, but that isn't near good enough for me to accept the Judeo-Christian God as my creator and live by the moral system that he supposedly put in place. I believe that a God that is both omnipotent, and loving and caring, could very easily have solved the problems put forth in the OT, rather than solving it the human way, by slaughtering/enslaving everything in his path! Including, women and children.

Okay, that's the mystery of Christianity. You basically don't know anything. You don't know what God's intentions are. You don't know what morality and love mean in a divine sense. You simply don't know. What it comes down to is faith. You either have faith or don't. There is no logical argument which can show you God is real and true.

I'm not arguing whether he's real or not, I'm arguing whether he is moral, ethical, and loving, or not.

Why would God be hidden from us? Why would he say he loves us, and yet practically leave us on our own, with simply faith alone to guide us? And if we get it wrong, simply don't have faith for completely justifiable reasons given our species, be sent to hell to suffer for all of eternity? Again, I say that there are plenty of cases of immorality, directly caused by God, and because of that, Christianity cannot claim God is all loving, nor ethical, nor can they say they secularists cannot tell morality from immorality, because obviously neither can their God!
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

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THEBOMB
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9/13/2012 9:24:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
According to Christians I talk to regularly (I don't like generalizing), God is the basis of our morality. Without him, they argue, we cannot say what is right and what is wrong. I find that observaton to be false. First, there was morality far before Christianity or Judaism showed up. People weren't regularly killing each other, or robbing from each other, etc. There were civilizations with laws protecting against these crimes. They weren't based on the Judeo-Christian God. My basis for morality is based off of the fact that murder is wrong, because I don't want to be murdered, and it hurts society. Stealing is wrong, because I wouldn't want to be robbed, and again, it hurts society. Rape is wrong, because, while I'm not a woman, I still wouldn't want to be raped and believe it is an atrocity, damaging society greatly. God is guilty of these crimes, so why exactly are we basing our morality off of his "word"?

God may be the basis of morality, but with our limited understand (we are not omniscient) how can we be sure what is truly moral? Only the divine can. We have an understanding of morality, but divine law and divine morality is different from human law and human morality.

In my opinion, human morality is all that exists. For example, 250 years ago, it would be absolutely moral to have a public hanging, or to tar and feather someone publicly. Nowadays, find someone who's not a psychopath who would agree with it. But that's because our morals have changed.

Or, if you want a religious example, how about burning witches at the stake? Again, it was completely moral, until we finally decided that is wasn't, that it was superstitious and wrong to do so, and the ritual was stopped and taught as immoral.

My point is, none of our morality has ever come from God. We invented it! We figured out over thousands of years what is right and wrong, and we are still doing so! Of course human law and morality isn't perfect, that's because we're human! But the divine morality and divine law I see is far from perfect, and even less so than human morality, in my opinion. Again, because the "divine law" and "divine morality" was another concept invented by humans!

Arguments over what is moral and not does not disprove that there could be a divinely inspired objective morality. (Morality from God).

No, but I have my reasons for not believing in God, that aren't really relevant to this discussion. My point is, objective morality from an all loving father figure called God is a ridiculous claim given his track record. That was my point, and I haven't heard any reasonable arguments against the egregious acts in the OT, other than we don't know what God's intentions are. In other words, we don't know, period. Not to sound snobby, but that isn't near good enough for me to accept the Judeo-Christian God as my creator and live by the moral system that he supposedly put in place. I believe that a God that is both omnipotent, and loving and caring, could very easily have solved the problems put forth in the OT, rather than solving it the human way, by slaughtering/enslaving everything in his path! Including, women and children.

Okay, that's the mystery of Christianity. You basically don't know anything. You don't know what God's intentions are. You don't know what morality and love mean in a divine sense. You simply don't know. What it comes down to is faith. You either have faith or don't. There is no logical argument which can show you God is real and true.

I'm not arguing whether he's real or not, I'm arguing whether he is moral, ethical, and loving, or not.

It's a matter of faith. The question really comes down to, "do you have faith that God is doing the right thing?"


Why would God be hidden from us?

God isn't. See the New Testament, see the bible in general. God can't give all the answers, otherwise what is the point of life?

Why would he say he loves us, and yet practically leave us on our own, with simply faith alone to guide us?

So we can make a choice. If God revealed himself to us as the Father, everyone would believe. Plus, He does not just leave people on their own, people do experience God, non-theists just brush it off as fake. To the person experiencing, it is not. Open your heart and mind the possibility of there being a higher power.

And if we get it wrong, simply don't have faith for completely justifiable reasons given our species, be sent to hell to suffer for all of eternity?

If you don't believe in God, why would you want to be with God? Hell is simply eternal separation from God. Heaven is eternally being with God. Also, many simply hold stock in the theory of annihilation that those who don't believe in God are simply well annihilated, they cease to exist so to speak.

Again, I say that there are plenty of cases of immorality, directly caused by God, and because of that, Christianity cannot claim God is all loving, nor ethical, nor can they say they secularists cannot tell morality from immorality, because obviously neither can their God!

What does it mean for God to be loving, caring, or ethical? If death brings a greater good, is that death wrong?
EvanK
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9/13/2012 9:40:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/13/2012 9:24:21 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
It's a matter of faith. The question really comes down to, "do you have faith that God is doing the right thing?"

Yes, it is. And no, I don't believe God has been doing the right thing.

God isn't. See the New Testament, see the bible in general. God can't give all the answers, otherwise what is the point of life?

A 2,000 year old book just doesn't do it for me, especially when some is supposed to be taken literally, some metaphorically, and especially because there are dozens, if not hundreds of different translations. I think that God could at least put some confusion beside, being omnipotent and all.

So we can make a choice. If God revealed himself to us as the Father, everyone would believe. Plus, He does not just leave people on their own, people do experience God, non-theists just brush it off as fake. To the person experiencing, it is not. Open your heart and mind the possibility of there being a higher power.

What's wrong with everyone believing? I was taught we were created to know, love and serve God. I don't see the point in putting people in a confusing, violent, and often very evil world, and setting forth rules that they don't know about, and can only be found after sifting through thousands upon thousands of religions and religious views, and expecting them to pass his test in order to get into heaven and fulfill the real task we were created for, and if we fail, we go to hell.

If you don't believe in God, why would you want to be with God? Hell is simply eternal separation from God. Heaven is eternally being with God. Also, many simply hold stock in the theory of annihilation that those who don't believe in God are simply well annihilated, they cease to exist so to speak.

First, I am simply trying to understand the point behind all of this, not claiming I want to, or don't want to, be with God. Secondly, there are hundreds possibly thousands of translations of hell, so I suppose you can pick and choose which you believe. Some say it's what you described, others say it's literally a lake of fire, no one can really agree upon it. And again, as I said, what if we, by no fault of our own, cannot believe in him? Why did he create us in that way, so that we can't believe in him, because it doesn't make any sense, and then punish us for it?

What does it mean for God to be loving, caring, or ethical? If death brings a greater good, is that death wrong?

Firstly, they are human terms, often applied to God. Obviously, a loving, caring, ethical person would do everything in their power to preserve human life. However, an all loving, caring and ethical God, who is omnipotent, can do everything in his power to preserve human life. I believe that if he doesn't do everything he can, and simply allows us to do as we please with each other, that's one thing. But to say that he would kill innocent people, women and children included, would mean that he is not caring, ethical or loving. Because he very easily could have preserved human life, life that will only happen once.

As for the last bit, it depends. If it's humans doing the killing, on their own, with no sanction from God, yes, that death may have proven good, if it was used in order to do good, for example, defending your country in a war. But if that killing took place by an omnipotent, loving God, then no, it that death is not good because it very easily could have been avoided. We humans have limited resources, God has limitless resources, assuming he is omnipotent. So yes, if God murders innocent children, I do believe that he is uncaring, unethical and unloving. If he even exists.
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
THEBOMB
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9/13/2012 9:52:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/13/2012 9:40:08 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 9/13/2012 9:24:21 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
It's a matter of faith. The question really comes down to, "do you have faith that God is doing the right thing?"

Yes, it is. And no, I don't believe God has been doing the right thing.

Open your heart :) that's all I can say.


God isn't. See the New Testament, see the bible in general. God can't give all the answers, otherwise what is the point of life?

A 2,000 year old book just doesn't do it for me, especially when some is supposed to be taken literally, some metaphorically, and especially because there are dozens, if not hundreds of different translations. I think that God could at least put some confusion beside, being omnipotent and all.

Well there are different translations because it was translated from greek to english. But, the meaning is not all to obscured by the translations. (99.5% correct). And there were hundreds of different authors all with different writing styles so...that's why.


So we can make a choice. If God revealed himself to us as the Father, everyone would believe. Plus, He does not just leave people on their own, people do experience God, non-theists just brush it off as fake. To the person experiencing, it is not. Open your heart and mind the possibility of there being a higher power.

What's wrong with everyone believing?

Nothing. But, there would be no choice in the matter. You wouldn't be accepting because you believe but rather because you saw.

I was taught we were created to know, love and serve God. I don't see the point in putting people in a confusing, violent, and often very evil world, and setting forth rules that they don't know about, and can only be found after sifting through thousands upon thousands of religions and religious views, and expecting them to pass his test in order to get into heaven and fulfill the real task we were created for, and if we fail, we go to hell.

The world sucks because man made it suck. It's "evil" because man made it evil. Each religion proposes that they posses the truth. You have to decide what you want to believe, no one can make that choice. If you are called to Christianity, good. If you are called to Buddhism, I don't think anyone is going to call you an evil person. But, ultimately it's your decision. Open your heart. Why is it impossible that there could be something greater out there?


If you don't believe in God, why would you want to be with God? Hell is simply eternal separation from God. Heaven is eternally being with God. Also, many simply hold stock in the theory of annihilation that those who don't believe in God are simply well annihilated, they cease to exist so to speak.

First, I am simply trying to understand the point behind all of this, not claiming I want to, or don't want to, be with God.

Alrighty.

Secondly, there are hundreds possibly thousands of translations of hell, so I suppose you can pick and choose which you believe. Some say it's what you described, others say it's literally a lake of fire, no one can really agree upon it. And again, as I said, what if we, by no fault of our own, cannot believe in him?

Anything is possible for God. But, God won't force you to believe in him. You have to choose. Opening your heart to that possibility is allowing that choice.

Why did he create us in that way, so that we can't believe in him, because it doesn't make any sense, and then punish us for it?

God is not punishing you. He is loving so if you don't believe in him, you don't want to be with him, he won't force you to be with him. Everyone can believe, many choose not to.


What does it mean for God to be loving, caring, or ethical? If death brings a greater good, is that death wrong?

Firstly, they are human terms, often applied to God. Obviously, a loving, caring, ethical person would do everything in their power to preserve human life. However, an all loving, caring and ethical God, who is omnipotent, can do everything in his power to preserve human life.

Exactly. They are human terms applied to God! God is quite obviously not human, so why should we accept the placement of human terms on God? We simply use these characteristics as placeholder so we can have meaningful discourse. Words define God, God, by definition, is incomprehensible, we cannot understand God.

I believe that if he doesn't do everything he can, and simply allows us to do as we please with each other, that's one thing. But to say that he would kill innocent people, women and children included, would mean that he is not caring, ethical or loving. Because he very easily could have preserved human life, life that will only happen once.

As for the last bit, it depends. If it's humans doing the killing, on their own, with no sanction from God, yes, that death may have proven good, if it was used in order to do good, for example, defending your country in a war. But if that killing took place by an omnipotent, loving God, then no, it that death is not good because it very easily could have been avoided. We humans have limited resources, God has limitless resources, assuming he is omnipotent. So yes, if God murders innocent children, I do believe that he is uncaring, unethical and unloving. If he even exists.

See the above. God may be unethical by your terms, but we cannot understand the reason for God's actions.

If you are that interested in this topic, talking to a priest (in real life) may be a better choice than this forum.
EvanK
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9/13/2012 10:11:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/13/2012 9:52:42 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
Open your heart :) that's all I can say.

Tried that! I honestly can say that I cannot, not will not, cannot, believe in God, at least in the way Christians describe him.

Well there are different translations because it was translated from greek to english. But, the meaning is not all to obscured by the translations. (99.5% correct). And there were hundreds of different authors all with different writing styles so...that's why.

Yes, but it really shouldn't be as confusing as it is, imo. Think of how many people who were led astray due to confusion.

Nothing. But, there would be no choice in the matter. You wouldn't be accepting because you believe but rather because you saw.

Yes, but it really isn't as simple as believe or don't believe, imo. Most atheists I see don't doubt in God because they hate him (myself included) but because the explanations for God make no sense to us. So why would God create such a place where people are led astray due to his obscureness, and due to our nature?

The world sucks because man made it suck. It's "evil" because man made it evil. Each religion proposes that they posses the truth. You have to decide what you want to believe, no one can make that choice. If you are called to Christianity, good. If you are called to Buddhism, I don't think anyone is going to call you an evil person. But, ultimately it's your decision. Open your heart. Why is it impossible that there could be something greater out there?

Man made it suck, exactly! I believe, however, that if God does exist, at least according to Christianity, it sucks because of God, ultimately.

Obviously, no one can make me believe, or make anyone believe. But what is the point in remaining a mystery to humans, and demanding trust and respect from them? And I don't believe it's "impossible" that something greater is out, there, rather that Christianity isn't it...

Anything is possible for God. But, God won't force you to believe in him. You have to choose. Opening your heart to that possibility is allowing that choice.

I have done that. I honestly have. Didn't work. I simply don't understand the point behind it.

God is not punishing you. He is loving so if you don't believe in him, you don't want to be with him, he won't force you to be with him. Everyone can believe, many choose not to.

It has long been taught as punishment. And again, I never said I don't want to be with him. I said that I doubt Christianity is the truth. Doesn't mean I don't want to be with him, rather that I don't believe he exists.

Exactly. They are human terms applied to God! God is quite obviously not human, so why should we accept the placement of human terms on God? We simply use these characteristics as placeholder so we can have meaningful discourse. Words define God, God, by definition, is incomprehensible, we cannot understand God.

We cannot understand God, except for the times when he tells us to kill fellow human beings, appearantly.

See the above. God may be unethical by your terms, but we cannot understand the reason for God's actions.

I don't think we have to understand them to make a judgement. I will not follow a God that sanctions the mass murder of innocent people, especially women and children.


If you are that interested in this topic, talking to a priest (in real life) may be a better choice than this forum.

I am simply interested in hearing the opinions of others on the website! :)
I am not having a crisis of faith or anything like that, simply inquiring the beliefs of others, simply because I'm curious. If I was seriously worried, I would discuss this with a Priest.
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
THEBOMB
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9/13/2012 10:33:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/13/2012 10:11:57 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 9/13/2012 9:52:42 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
Open your heart :) that's all I can say.

Tried that! I honestly can say that I cannot, not will not, cannot, believe in God, at least in the way Christians describe him.

Then don't believe in God the way Christians described it but, just saying for some it takes years for any kind of belief to come. There are also a plethora of other religions out there that you can explore.


Well there are different translations because it was translated from greek to english. But, the meaning is not all to obscured by the translations. (99.5% correct). And there were hundreds of different authors all with different writing styles so...that's why.

Yes, but it really shouldn't be as confusing as it is, imo. Think of how many people who were led astray due to confusion.

The bible is the basis of Christianity today. It was written over hundreds of years by many different authors. But, if someone has faith they will regardless.


Nothing. But, there would be no choice in the matter. You wouldn't be accepting because you believe but rather because you saw.

Yes, but it really isn't as simple as believe or don't believe, imo. Most atheists I see don't doubt in God because they hate him (myself included) but because the explanations for God make no sense to us. So why would God create such a place where people are led astray due to his obscureness, and due to our nature?

Haha you're asking such great questions...and I don't know how to answer you. I don't know why God would do something. Nobody does. Frustrating isn't it? The best I can tell you is God wants everyone to take a leap of faith.


The world sucks because man made it suck. It's "evil" because man made it evil. Each religion proposes that they posses the truth. You have to decide what you want to believe, no one can make that choice. If you are called to Christianity, good. If you are called to Buddhism, I don't think anyone is going to call you an evil person. But, ultimately it's your decision. Open your heart. Why is it impossible that there could be something greater out there?

Man made it suck, exactly! I believe, however, that if God does exist, at least according to Christianity, it sucks because of God, ultimately.

Why is that? Man made a choice in the beginning. Read Genesis.


Obviously, no one can make me believe, or make anyone believe. But what is the point in remaining a mystery to humans, and demanding trust and respect from them?

God is not demanding your trust and respect. God wants you to believe in him and trust him, but if he demanded something, well...its God. Think about it. An omniscient being demanding something...

And I don't believe it's "impossible" that something greater is out, there, rather that Christianity isn't it...

I'm just going to make a suggestion, talk to different religious leaders about their faith (Christianity included), they will be able to answer these questions better than almost everyone on this website. You have the militant atheists on one side and the militant theists on the other....its just wonderful...


Anything is possible for God. But, God won't force you to believe in him. You have to choose. Opening your heart to that possibility is allowing that choice.

I have done that. I honestly have. Didn't work. I simply don't understand the point behind it.

For many it takes years and decades for belief to come, some don't convert until the end of their lives. Giving up is not allowing that chance so to speak.


God is not punishing you. He is loving so if you don't believe in him, you don't want to be with him, he won't force you to be with him. Everyone can believe, many choose not to.

It has long been taught as punishment.

Depends who is teaching :P

And again, I never said I don't want to be with him. I said that I doubt Christianity is the truth. Doesn't mean I don't want to be with him, rather that I don't believe he exists.

Having doubts and making a definitive statement of disbelief are two entirely different things. If you don't believe he exists, you don't want to be with him because of that belief.


Exactly. They are human terms applied to God! God is quite obviously not human, so why should we accept the placement of human terms on God? We simply use these characteristics as placeholder so we can have meaningful discourse. Words define God, God, by definition, is incomprehensible, we cannot understand God.

We cannot understand God, except for the times when he tells us to kill fellow human beings, apparently.

We still don't understand God, even then. I mean there is a reason, and we don't understand that reason...it's all part of a bigger plan.


See the above. God may be unethical by your terms, but we cannot understand the reason for God's actions.

I don't think we have to understand them to make a judgement. I will not follow a God that sanctions the mass murder of innocent people, especially women and children.

Then don't.



If you are that interested in this topic, talking to a priest (in real life) may be a better choice than this forum.

I am simply interested in hearing the opinions of others on the website! :)

Yea...well...you're going to get a lot of opinions alright xD :)

I am not having a crisis of faith or anything like that, simply inquiring the beliefs of others, simply because I'm curious. If I was seriously worried, I would discuss this with a Priest.

I'm getting the impression that you are not actually an atheist, I'm not trying to offend or anything but just by how you pose things. You may lack belief in the Judea-Christian God, but you are still open to the possibility of a higher power ("I don't believe it's "impossible" that something greater is out there"), this is something which atheists deny completely. I still suggest talking to a Priest and other religious leaders, they could answer your questions much better and more eloquently than anyone here.
EvanK
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9/13/2012 10:33:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
JFTR, I won't be able to respond to any more posts until tomorrow night.
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
THEBOMB
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9/13/2012 10:35:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/13/2012 10:33:20 PM, EvanK wrote:
JFTR, I won't be able to respond to any more posts until tomorrow night.

lol yea...it is kinda late :P
jharry
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9/14/2012 3:25:34 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Evan, for the sake of this discussion you are saying "if there is a God of Christianity He is immoral" right?

So basically you're assuming God is real right? Just for the discussion.

If God knows all things He knows the future of every human that has been or will be born.

Let's assume every human killed or enslaved would never obey God and war against Him and His people.

Would God still be immoral?

I know your first temptation will be to bring up something else like lack of proof or science but I hope we can stay focused. Other issues can be addressed later of course
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
Composer
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9/14/2012 5:22:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/13/2012 9:52:42 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
The world sucks because man made it suck.

Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: Totally INCORRECT! and here's why -

1. Even those claiming to be a xtian ALL admit they are malignant sinners!

IF they had a Free-Will then they probably wouldn't continue to Sin, however ALL admit they do!

Hence, IF they are implementing their alleged Free-Will to stop themselves from being malignant sinners and failing miserably, they obviously have NO Free-Will!

At 9/13/2012 9:52:42 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
It's "evil" because man made it evil.

Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: YOU may be an evil person but Story book god admits that IT created ALL EVIL so that let's you off the hook for being made in that narcissistic evil bastards image -

1. It created the Tree of the Knowledge of good & EVIL, so IT introduced EVIL to mankind and everything else.

2. Again in the following Story book passage it admits it created ALL EVIL, so Mankind, the alleged naughty supernatural angel of christendom's making are innocent and tainted by Story book god's EVIL -

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (Col. 1:16) KJV Story book

The greatest Satan of ALL Story books that use the transferred Hebrew term Satan, is Story book god itself!

Next!
THEBOMB
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9/14/2012 2:36:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
DISCLAIMER: Composer is a militant disrespectful atheist. Much of what he says is incorrect...

At 9/14/2012 5:22:15 AM, Composer wrote:
At 9/13/2012 9:52:42 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
The world sucks because man made it suck.

Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: Totally INCORRECT! and here's why -

1. Even those claiming to be a xtian ALL admit they are malignant sinners!

Correct :) congrats!


IF they had a Free-Will then they probably wouldn't continue to Sin, however ALL admit they do!

Ummm...people do the best the can to not sin, yet they still do.


Hence, IF they are implementing their alleged Free-Will to stop themselves from being malignant sinners and failing miserably, they obviously have NO Free-Will!

Or they just failed. Keep in mind, you must also add in the conception of faith in Jesus, who in your eyes is not real.




At 9/13/2012 9:52:42 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
It's "evil" because man made it evil.

Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: YOU may be an evil person but Story book god admits that IT created ALL EVIL so that let's you off the hook for being made in that narcissistic evil bastards image -

1. It created the Tree of the Knowledge of good & EVIL, so IT introduced EVIL to mankind and everything else.

Having knowledge of what is good and what is evil does not mean an introduction of evil, just the introduction of the knowledge of what is good/evil...God introduced the knowledge which man was not supposed to have.


2. Again in the following Story book passage it admits it created ALL EVIL, so Mankind, the alleged naughty supernatural angel of christendom's making are innocent and tainted by Story book god's EVIL -

Your analysis of the passage is incorrect.


For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (Col. 1:16) KJV Story book

Originally everything was perfect, then it became corrupted. You need to have a finer grasp of theology.


The greatest Satan of ALL Story books that use the transferred Hebrew term Satan, is Story book god itself!

Next!
Paradox_7
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9/14/2012 5:00:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/13/2012 7:57:27 PM, EvanK wrote:
Christians believe (at least those I have spoken with) that Christ was sent to Earth not only to save the human race, but to abolish the old laws, the Jewish laws of the Old Testament, and replace them with new laws.

Matthew 5:17
17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Who ever says Christ came to abolish the Law apparently doesn't know what their talking about.

But I believe that the atrocious events that take place in the Old Testament due to God are detestable, and cannot be made up for by simply changing the old laws of the OT. What I mean is, innocent people suffered and died due to acts sanctioned by God in the OT, and that a loving God wouldn't ever sanction such atrocious acts.

Some of those acts include the slaughter of the Amalekites *(Samuel 1, chapter 15, verse 3-"Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and a$$.") and the Passover, *(Exodus, chapter 12, verse 12-"For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord.") an event that Jews still celebrate to this day. In these two events alone, God is directly responsible for the deaths of innocent children, as well as other innocent individuals. There was no reason for it. The Pharaoh, for example, was the one who wouldn't release the Jewish slaves, why on Earth does God punish innocent children in order to release these slaves? Surely, an omnipotent God could simply will the slaves freed, a procedure which wouldn't result in the deaths of dozens, hundreds, perhaps thousands of innocent people, including women and children.

First, stating that anyone is innocent (children or not) is a matter of your typical human opinion. If we use the word of God to find our answers, it says very cleary, that no one is innocent, ad all deserve death-- even children.

Second, you said several times "for no reason", this is a bold and baseless claim, since you have no idea what reasons God has for what he does. Along with being omnipotent, he is also omniscient; Everything works out for HIS purposes, and he knows all things. You and I do not; where do you get the balls?

One more specific immoral act sanctioned by God, which directly harmed individuals, was the enslavement of innocent women, and having them become the wives of the Jews' against their will *(Deuteronomy chapter 21, 10-14). This wasn't the only crime against women, if I remember correctly, but the only one I will list.

It seems you're taking a very common position; one of ignorance. Never once in the OT does God condone nor command a woman to be married against her will.

I know what you are referring to:

11 if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife.

This is only understood to mean 'against her will' if you are being a douchebag.

Let not forget the very words that are uttered at a wedding:

"Do you take this woman to be your lawfully wedded wife?"

If the passage above makes you think a woman is being forced to marry, this should throw a whole lot of confusion. Your argument is grasping at straws.

All of these acts sanctioned by God, and more, are in my opinion detestable, and are certainly not something I would expect from a "loving" God; are acts that are inexcusable by an all powerful, supreme and loving deity, and that by simply sending Christ to abolish old laws does nothing to reconcile those who needlessly suffered on account of the events directly caused by this deity.

So far, you've been wrong in your understanding of nearly everything. While (as a father) I can understand the passion behind your objections, I also understand the nature of man, and the nature of God (that's been revealed in scripture); He's perfect. We aren't expected to like it, nor understand it, just how we don't expect our children to like or understand many of the things we tell them or keep them from doing.

My point is, these events and more, show that the Judeo-Christian God is not an all loving being, and that Judeo-Christian morals are based on an immoral God, and that there very well cannot be an acceptable moral system, when it is based on the word of God which can change at any time. What I mean is, murder is wrong, unless God changes his mind and decides that murdering innocent people is the best course of action, and so murder is magically no longer wrong.

God isn't all loving. He hates sin. God doesn't operate by a human moral code; a flawed one that is. He operates by perfection, and his knowledge of all grants him this ability alone. You cannot have a blind fold over your eyes and expect to have an accurate idea of whats going on.

Murder can only be commited by a man, not a God.

That usually the type of haughty objection I get from atheists: "well how come he does it!!?"

Be humble my friend, we are less than termites.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
EvanK
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9/14/2012 5:58:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Thanks for waiting for my reply, lol. :P

At 9/13/2012 10:33:16 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
Then don't believe in God the way Christians described it but, just saying for some it takes years for any kind of belief to come. There are also a plethora of other religions out there that you can explore.

No religion really seems plausible, imo. No offense to any religious person, just my personal view.

The bible is the basis of Christianity today. It was written over hundreds of years by many different authors. But, if someone has faith they will regardless.

Yes, I understand that, and have no problem with it.

Haha you're asking such great questions...and I don't know how to answer you. I don't know why God would do something. Nobody does. Frustrating isn't it? The best I can tell you is God wants everyone to take a leap of faith.

Idk, it just seems to me that God would make it a bit simpler than sifting through thousands of different religions and trying to find the one true one. Obviously, like you said, no one can know.

Why is that? Man made a choice in the beginning. Read Genesis.

I have a long a explanation as to why I don't believe in the fall of man as dictated in Genesis, but I will try and condense it. :)

Basically, I believe that if Mankind is capable of disobeing God as Adam and Eve had, then they were always capable of it, and were never perfect to begin with, hence we have always been a "fallen" species. Do you see my point?

On top of that, I don't believe in Genesis to begin with, not literally (although I admit it would be a nicer way of creating the world, lol), but rather I believe that we evolved, and eventually aquired thought and being able to really think and decide what we should do, hence gaining the ability to discern right from wrong. Whenever we passed that stage, we were capable of evil, slowly but surely. Obviously it wasn't just, one day, Mankind was suddenly capable of conciously murdering someone. It took place over thousands of years of evolution, tens of thousands. And eventually we reached the point we basically are at today. Just my opinion, and it might make sense if I didn't have to condense it (yes, this was the short version, lol).

God is not demanding your trust and respect. God wants you to believe in him and trust him, but if he demanded something, well...its God. Think about it. An omniscient being demanding something...

I don't have a problem of an omniscient being demanding something, rather I have a problem with an obscure being described by Man demanding something, under threat of eternal punishment. Again, just how it seems in my pov.

I'm just going to make a suggestion, talk to different religious leaders about their faith (Christianity included), they will be able to answer these questions better than almost everyone on this website. You have the militant atheists on one side and the militant theists on the other....its just wonderful...

Yes, it sure is! :)

For many it takes years and decades for belief to come, some don't convert until the end of their lives. Giving up is not allowing that chance so to speak.

I haven't "given up" so to speak. I have stopped calling myself a Christian, and conducting their rituals (praying, for example) but I haven't told myself to black out Christianity entirety, because it isn't worth my time. Rather, I have simply decided that it doesn't make sense, but that I really haven't made up my mind as far as God goes, other than none of the religions make sense. I always keep an open mind, however.

Depends who is teaching :P

It certainly does, lol!

Having doubts and making a definitive statement of disbelief are two entirely different things. If you don't believe he exists, you don't want to be with him because of that belief.

No, perhaps I would like a creator to exists. Honestly, I don't really know. But my non-belief in such entity is not a hatred or contempt of said entity.

We still don't understand God, even then. I mean there is a reason, and we don't understand that reason...it's all part of a bigger plan.

I will try and restate what I have said, and that is I can understand certain aspects of the world, and possibly concede that they are part of a larger plan (ie, evolution), but I cannot believe that an omnibenevolent and omnipotent being would kill thousands of innocent women and children, taking away their only chance at life. Just doesn't make sense to me, personally, although I understand and respect that others can make sense of it.

Yea...well...you're going to get a lot of opinions alright xD :)

)

I'm getting the impression that you are not actually an atheist, I'm not trying to offend or anything but just by how you pose things. You may lack belief in the Judea-Christian God, but you are still open to the possibility of a higher power ("I don't believe it's "impossible" that something greater is out there"), this is something which atheists deny completely. I still suggest talking to a Priest and other religious leaders, they could answer your questions much better and more eloquently than anyone here.

No offense taken, and I suppose I can see your point to a degree. I suppose I am more of an agnostic than an atheist, but I cannot make sense of any religion, so I suppose I cannot believe in a God, unless it's a Deistic God, which on the one hand, appeals to me, but on the other hand confuses me as well, lol. I suppose if I have the time, I'd talk to a religious authority, if I really wanted to get down and dirty into it, but for now, DDO is sufficient! :D
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
EvanK
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9/14/2012 6:08:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/14/2012 3:25:34 AM, jharry wrote:
Evan, for the sake of this discussion you are saying "if there is a God of Christianity He is immoral" right?

So basically you're assuming God is real right? Just for the discussion.

If God knows all things He knows the future of every human that has been or will be born.

Let's assume every human killed or enslaved would never obey God and war against Him and His people.

Would God still be immoral?

I know your first temptation will be to bring up something else like lack of proof or science but I hope we can stay focused. Other issues can be addressed later of course

Jharry, sorry for the delay in my reply.

For this discussion, yes I am assuming that the Judeo-Christian God exists, and am inquiring on the immorality of the OT and how that affects Christianity.

To your first question, yes I would say God is still immoral. In my opinion, he is depriving humans of their right to life, and unjustly commiting a very human act, for an omnipotent/omniscient/omnibenevolent being.

Let me put it in a different way. When discussing the DP (death penalty) with a Catholic family member, she argued against it because it deprives people of their chance to reconcile with God later in their life, and that if that person is murdered before he/she would normally have died, it deprives that person of reconciling with God. I know that in this case, God killed this people, and he's supposedly all knowing and all the rest, but I still don't see why he would kill innocent children and enslave women, effectively sanctioning their rape and mental torment. I think he could have found a less human way of dealing with these events.

I hope my response makes sense.
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
EvanK
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9/14/2012 6:37:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/14/2012 5:00:12 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Matthew 5:17
17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Who ever says Christ came to abolish the Law apparently doesn't know what their talking about.

Again, I am going off of what I was told and taught, and I know it differs from person to person. And as for fulfilling them, that actually makes it worse, imo. That means that all of the atrocities in the OT are still sanctioned by God.

First, stating that anyone is innocent (children or not) is a matter of your typical human opinion. If we use the word of God to find our answers, it says very cleary, that no one is innocent, ad all deserve death-- even children.

Using the word of God assumes he exists, which I suppose we are doing, to a degree. But I most certainly cannot reconcile saying that everyone deserves death, even children. Furthermore, I don't believe that I am guilty of other peoples' sins, nor are anyone else guilty of mine. Meaning, I don't agree that everyone is guilty of "original sin" simply because the first woman on Earth ate an apple per the suggestion of a talking serpent.

Second, you said several times "for no reason", this is a bold and baseless claim, since you have no idea what reasons God has for what he does. Along with being omnipotent, he is also omniscient; Everything works out for HIS purposes, and he knows all things. You and I do not; where do you get the balls?

How can you say you know God's will or reasons? Obviously, no one can. Even the Bible was written by Man, so how can we say we know what he wants, and if that includes the killing of innocent, yes innocent children and enslaving virigns.

It seems you're taking a very common position; one of ignorance. Never once in the OT does God condone nor command a woman to be married against her will.

I know what you are referring to:

11 if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife.

This is only understood to mean 'against her will' if you are being a douchebag.

Let not forget the very words that are uttered at a wedding:

"Do you take this woman to be your lawfully wedded wife?"

If the passage above makes you think a woman is being forced to marry, this should throw a whole lot of confusion. Your argument is grasping at straws.

First, it very well does sound like the women are in fact being enslaved. Again, it doesn't mention at all whether or not the woman has any say in the marriage. Simply, it says that if you see a beautiful woman, you can marry her. And I'm not a douchebag, btw. I'm trying to remain respectful, I ask that you do the same, as in accordance with your Christian morals. :P

Secondly, this isn't the only case of case of women being enslaved or repressed in the Bible, simply one instance. I'm sure you've heard of others.

So far, you've been wrong in your understanding of nearly everything. While (as a father) I can understand the passion behind your objections, I also understand the nature of man, and the nature of God (that's been revealed in scripture); He's perfect. We aren't expected to like it, nor understand it, just how we don't expect our children to like or understand many of the things we tell them or keep them from doing.

Yes, but eventually children do understand what their parents were doing, however we do not ever understand why God kills innocent children, when he very well could have done otherwise.

God isn't all loving. He hates sin. God doesn't operate by a human moral code; a flawed one that is. He operates by perfection, and his knowledge of all grants him this ability alone. You cannot have a blind fold over your eyes and expect to have an accurate idea of whats going on.

By all loving, I mean all loving of his creations, humans specifically. Secondly, he invented sin. In the beginning, there was nothing, according to Christianity, and then there was everything, because God created it. Obviously evil is something, and a part of God's creation. I am not responsible for my own sins, according to Christianity because original sin was caused thousands of years ago, and I was created in sin. However, in my world view, I am responsible for every wrong doing I have ever done, and will do, in my life. And that's that.


Murder can only be commited by a man, not a God.

That usually the type of haughty objection I get from atheists: "well how come he does it!!?"

Be humble my friend, we are less than termites.

Humble in who's eyes? I am no better than you, nor you better than I. We are equal. However, I refuse to bow down to an obscure sky wizard who murders children, yes, murders children. Sorry, but I don't.

I do thank you for your imput, and look forward to a response. :D
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
jharry
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9/14/2012 7:10:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Evan, how should God deal with humans that hate Him and His people?

Why does God need to respect the life He gave those that hate Him and His people?

God knows the life of every human, beginning to end. For those that hate Him the next life is far worse then any thing this world can throw at us. Should He spare suffering in this life for those that hate Him just so they can live their natural life out and end up in Hell after choosing it? Remember, He knows if they will turn to Him or not.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen