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The Holy Quran study group

baggins
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9/17/2012 1:54:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Anyone interested in a study group for The Holy Quran. Everyday one different person posts few verses of their choice. Others read the verses, and discuss it - if they want to. We need a few volunteers (from any faith, or no faith) who will present the verses. Everyone would be welcome to join the discussions.

1. Baggins
2.
3.
4.
5.

Critics of Islam are also welcome to join. However it has to be few continuous verses from one place in Quran everyday. Don't try to overload the discussion by posting lots of snippets without the context.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
Archistrategos
Posts: 602
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9/17/2012 3:04:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Interesting to find that "Allah" is a descriptor meaning "The God"

Then I go further back in Islam to find that God has 99 utter-able name/qualities and a hundredth name that is not pronounceable by human tongue, that He reserves only for His Self.
yoda878
Posts: 902
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9/17/2012 3:36:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."
And He taught Adam the names - all of them. Then He showed them to the angels and said, "Inform Me of the names of these, if you are truthful."
They said, "Exalted are You; we have no knowledge except what You have taught us. Indeed, it is You who is the Knowing, the Wise."
He said, "O Adam, inform them of their names." And when he had informed them of their names, He said, "Did I not tell you that I know the unseen [aspects] of the heavens and the earth? And I know what you reveal and what you have concealed."
And [mention] when We said to the angels, "Prostrate before Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He refused and was arrogant and became of the disbelievers.
And We said, "O Adam, dwell, you and your wife, in Paradise and eat therefrom in [ease and] abundance from wherever you will. But do not approach this tree, lest you be among the wrongdoers."
Surat Al-Baqarah 2:30-2:31
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Archistrategos
Posts: 602
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9/17/2012 4:04:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/17/2012 3:54:02 PM, yoda878 wrote:
What do you make of these verses?

Sounds like "We" was referring to Iblees with the tree comment.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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9/17/2012 4:39:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/17/2012 3:54:02 PM, yoda878 wrote:
What do you make of these verses?
This Quranic narrative describes an event in Paradise, prior to creation of Earth, where the angels were commanded by God to prostrate to Adam. While all of them did, Iblees did not. This being is referred to as satan.

The unseen beings fall into the angels who never disobey God, and the jinn who, like mankind, have free will. Quranic commentators were quite confused with regard to the story, because if Iblees was one of the angels, how come he disobeyed God? One possible answer is that the term "angel" here referred to all of the spirited-beings, namely the angels and a lower rank of "angels" that are Jinn. (And satan is a jinn.)

The story itself is narrated to describe what kind of behavior God loathes and punishes, and what kind of behavior Satan wants people to imitate. Adam and Eve were both equally blamed and forgiven for their sin (eating from the tree), and this depicts God's ultimate forgiveness and love of humankind.

The "We" in the Quran, when said by God, is simply a royal plural. This often refers to God only.
Archistrategos
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9/17/2012 4:51:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/17/2012 4:39:39 PM, Mirza wrote:
The "We" in the Quran, when said by God, is simply a royal plural. This often refers to God only.

Sounds like God is a Unified Mutiplicity.....as one would expect an infinite God to be =)

Same as "Elohim" in the bible.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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9/17/2012 4:52:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/17/2012 4:51:49 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
At 9/17/2012 4:39:39 PM, Mirza wrote:
The "We" in the Quran, when said by God, is simply a royal plural. This often refers to God only.

Sounds like God is a Unified Mutiplicity.....as one would expect an infinite God to be =)

Same as "Elohim" in the bible.

It is the same god though so that's to be expected(although Christians will argue against this).
Archistrategos
Posts: 602
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9/17/2012 4:55:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/17/2012 4:52:56 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 9/17/2012 4:51:49 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
At 9/17/2012 4:39:39 PM, Mirza wrote:
The "We" in the Quran, when said by God, is simply a royal plural. This often refers to God only.

Sounds like God is a Unified Mutiplicity.....as one would expect an infinite God to be =)

Same as "Elohim" in the bible.

It is the same god though so that's to be expected(although Christians will argue against this).

Good and important point!

What if this multiplicity is everything that God created (by speaking his own Name) and saw was good? In Luke 18:19 Jesus says "Only God is good alone." ......All one?
yoda878
Posts: 902
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9/17/2012 4:58:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/17/2012 4:55:20 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I first read this as "The Holy Organ". Great porn clip.

Gross remind me to never use your computer!
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InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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9/17/2012 4:59:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/17/2012 4:58:49 PM, yoda878 wrote:
At 9/17/2012 4:55:20 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I first read this as "The Holy Organ". Great porn clip.

Gross remind me to never use your computer!

LOL.
Archistrategos
Posts: 602
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9/17/2012 5:00:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/17/2012 4:55:20 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I first read this as "The Holy Organ". Great porn clip.

*hands tissues and windex*
yoda878
Posts: 902
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9/18/2012 9:53:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I just took it upon myself to be the poster of verses but someone else can post them too if they want..

Chapter 1:
Al-Fatihah " The Opening:
Revealed at Makkah: 7 verses

1:1 Praise be to Allah, the Lord of the worlds,

1:2 The Beneficent, the Merciful,

1:3 Master of the day of Requital.

1:4 Thee do we serve and Thee do we beseech for help.

1:5 Guide us on the right path,

1:6 The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favours,

1:7 Not those upon whom wrath is brought down, nor those who go astray.
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Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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9/18/2012 10:49:02 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/17/2012 1:54:16 PM, baggins wrote:
Anyone interested in a study group for The Holy Quran. Everyday one different person posts few verses of their choice. Others read the verses, and discuss it - if they want to. We need a few volunteers (from any faith, or no faith) who will present the verses. Everyone would be welcome to join the discussions.

1. Baggins
2. Wallstreetatheist
3.
4.
5.

Critics of Islam are also welcome to join. However it has to be few continuous verses from one place in Quran everyday. Don't try to overload the discussion by posting lots of snippets without the context.

Finally we can welcome the refreshing and powerful truth of the Quran to DDO.
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Primal Diet. Lifting. Reading. Psychedelics. Cold-Approach Pickup. Music.
baggins
Posts: 855
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9/18/2012 1:19:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/18/2012 9:53:00 AM, yoda878 wrote:
I just took it upon myself to be the poster of verses but someone else can post them too if they want..

Chapter 1:
Al-Fatihah " The Opening:
Revealed at Makkah: 7 verses


1:1 Praise be to Allah, the Lord of the worlds,

1:2 The Beneficent, the Merciful,

1:3 Master of the day of Requital.

1:4 Thee do we serve and Thee do we beseech for help.

1:5 Guide us on the right path,

1:6 The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favours,

1:7 Not those upon whom wrath is brought down, nor those who go astray.

Thanks for the post.

I was thinking of one thread per day, where different person posts the verses everyday. This way we will be able to hold discussion as well. I will create a separate thread with Surah Al-Fatihah for today. Let us see how it works out...
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
Archistrategos
Posts: 602
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9/18/2012 4:25:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Here is a beautiful harmony between the Quran and the Bible...

The one God
The Quran: "Your god is one god; there is no god but He, Most Gracious, Most Merciful." Quran 2:163 "Say, 'O followers of the scripture, let us come to a logical agreement between us and you: that we shall not worship except God; that we never set up any idols besides Him, nor set up any human beings as lords beside God.'" Quran 3:64

The Bible: "Jesus answered him: 'The first of all the commandments is: 'Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one'." Mr.12:29 Jesus said: "You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve." Mt.4:10 Apostle Paul said: "We know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one." 1Co.8:4

Simple. Our God is One. All separation is only in the minds of men.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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9/18/2012 4:43:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!a
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
joneszj
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9/18/2012 8:47:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/17/2012 4:55:57 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
At 9/17/2012 4:52:56 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 9/17/2012 4:51:49 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
At 9/17/2012 4:39:39 PM, Mirza wrote:
The "We" in the Quran, when said by God, is simply a royal plural. This often refers to God only.

Sounds like God is a Unified Mutiplicity.....as one would expect an infinite God to be =)

Same as "Elohim" in the bible.

It is the same god though so that's to be expected(although Christians will argue against this).

Good and important point!

What if this multiplicity is everything that God created (by speaking his own Name) and saw was good? In Luke 18:19 Jesus says "Only God is good alone." ......All one?

Christians claim that Jesus is God. Muslims do not agree to this. The context of Luke 18 is often used in support of the deity of Christ. I may open a can of worms with that.... Why do you think satan decided to be beligerant? Why did he chose such? God did create him and determined 1) the parameters of his choice, and 2) the motives of his choicing. It would seem to me that his rebelling was orchestrated.

Why would God command angels to prostrate before Adam? Kinda strange, but if Angels worshiped another human like me I might would find myself rebelling as well.
joneszj
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9/18/2012 8:52:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."

Interesting, in the context who is the 'they'? Is that creation, or members of a Godhead? Even more interesting, God affirms that he plans the succesion to be of one who causes corruption and sheds blood. Is that not a had pill to swallow? As a Reformed Christian I believe and accept that God providentially ordains all things (good and evil). But the Christian God does so with two intentions: 1) His glory and 2) the death of Christ. God ordains evil so that Christ would die for an evil people. Why would the Muslim God ordain evil?
Archistrategos
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9/18/2012 9:09:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/18/2012 8:47:50 PM, joneszj wrote:
Christians claim that Jesus is God. Muslims do not agree to this. The context of Luke 18 is often used in support of the deity of Christ. I may open a can of worms with that.... Why do you think satan decided to be beligerant? Why did he chose such? God did create him and determined 1) the parameters of his choice, and 2) the motives of his choicing. It would seem to me that his rebelling was orchestrated.

Why would God command angels to prostrate before Adam? Kinda strange, but if Angels worshiped another human like me I might would find myself rebelling as well.

As I understand, "Jesus" (not the name his was called at the time) is God the Son, and he always deferred to His Father.

And as I understand Iblees (who was later renamed Shaitan (Satan)) was a free will creature and rebelled against serving a human who was found righteous..as was Jesus.

As I understand, the angels were commanded to serve Adam because man is created in the image of God as creator. The angels are created as expressions of God's natures. And the Creator commands them.
Archistrategos
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9/18/2012 9:19:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/18/2012 4:43:01 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!ALLAH!

Your great faith and fervence are noted! Please don't blow yourself or anyone else up... thanks and peace be upon you!
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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9/18/2012 9:19:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/18/2012 9:09:06 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
At 9/18/2012 8:47:50 PM, joneszj wrote:
Christians claim that Jesus is God. Muslims do not agree to this. The context of Luke 18 is often used in support of the deity of Christ. I may open a can of worms with that.... Why do you think satan decided to be beligerant? Why did he chose such? God did create him and determined 1) the parameters of his choice, and 2) the motives of his choicing. It would seem to me that his rebelling was orchestrated.

Why would God command angels to prostrate before Adam? Kinda strange, but if Angels worshiped another human like me I might would find myself rebelling as well.

As I understand, "Jesus" (not the name his was called at the time) is God the Son, and he always deferred to His Father.

His name was not Jesus (Greek Yeshua). . . ?

And as I understand Iblees (who was later renamed Shaitan (Satan)) was a free will creature and rebelled against serving a human who was found righteous..as was Jesus.

Lets examine this. What is free will? Does it operate outside of Gods providence? Do God simply choose to not interfere with the will of His creature? Why do we choos what we choose in our free will? To every choice there is a motive. Where did the motive come from? How is it designed? What is the context in which a supposedly free willed creature could rebel against God? Where did the inclination to rebel come from? God created the creature and everything about the creature finds its design from God. Why did God create 1) knowingly, and 2) ordaining the rebellion of His creatures? I would like a Muslim response to this.

As I understand, the angels were commanded to serve Adam because man is created in the image of God as creator. The angels are created as expressions of God's natures. And the Creator commands them.

God created angels to prostrate before Adam because he was created in Gods image, yet Adam still rebelled. There was a flaw in Adams make-up. Logically even further there was a flaw in Iblees make-up. Free will is honestly an ignorant cop-out of reasonable examination of the will of creatures imo.
Archistrategos
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9/18/2012 9:52:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/18/2012 9:19:43 PM, joneszj wrote:
His name was not Jesus (Greek Yeshua). . . ?

YaHushua- "God the Father saves"

Lets examine this. What is free will? Does it operate outside of Gods providence? Do God simply choose to not interfere with the will of His creature? Why do we choos what we choose in our free will? To every choice there is a motive. Where did the motive come from? How is it designed? What is the context in which a supposedly free willed creature could rebel against God? Where did the inclination to rebel come from? God created the creature and everything about the creature finds its design from God. Why did God create 1) knowingly, and 2) ordaining the rebellion of His creatures? I would like a Muslim response to this.

So would I.

God created angels to prostrate before Adam because he was created in Gods image, yet Adam still rebelled. There was a flaw in Adams make-up. Logically even further there was a flaw in Iblees make-up. Free will is honestly an ignorant cop-out of reasonable examination of the will of creatures imo.

Flaw or the working out of consequences when the free will to ignore them is in place? This as I understand it, it is part and parcel of God's grace. As in He does not force us to worship Him.
joneszj
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9/18/2012 10:04:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/18/2012 9:52:05 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
At 9/18/2012 9:19:43 PM, joneszj wrote:
His name was not Jesus (Greek Yeshua). . . ?

YaHushua- "God the Father saves"

Lets examine this. What is free will? Does it operate outside of Gods providence? Do God simply choose to not interfere with the will of His creature? Why do we choos what we choose in our free will? To every choice there is a motive. Where did the motive come from? How is it designed? What is the context in which a supposedly free willed creature could rebel against God? Where did the inclination to rebel come from? God created the creature and everything about the creature finds its design from God. Why did God create 1) knowingly, and 2) ordaining the rebellion of His creatures? I would like a Muslim response to this.

So would I.

God created angels to prostrate before Adam because he was created in Gods image, yet Adam still rebelled. There was a flaw in Adams make-up. Logically even further there was a flaw in Iblees make-up. Free will is honestly an ignorant cop-out of reasonable examination of the will of creatures imo.

Flaw or the working out of consequences when the free will to ignore them is in place? This as I understand it, it is part and parcel of God's grace. As in He does not force us to worship Him.

Why would drive the free willed creature to ignore what he ought not? Must there not be a cause? Something caused the free willed creature to ignore something. That cause could be external (something like it got distracted by something else), or internal (a motive that derived from within the creature).

From the evidence Iblees motivation was an external influence on an internal motivation. Something about Adam caused something inside Iblees to rebel. Why? Apparently none of the other angels did. Iblees had something in his very nature (being derived from God) that caused his rebellion.

My ultimate question from the verse is: what vindication does the Muslim God have when charged with the problem of Evil and his self-affirmed ordination of it? Looking online here and there the only answer I get is Allah does what he pleases. Essentially its equivalant to: Allah ordains evil because it pleases him. I question whether that is something Muslims would agree with. I am just probing for knowledge.
Archistrategos
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9/18/2012 10:35:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/18/2012 10:04:00 PM, joneszj wrote:
Why would drive the free willed creature to ignore what he ought not? Must there not be a cause? Something caused the free willed creature to ignore something. That cause could be external (something like it got distracted by something else), or internal (a motive that derived from within the creature).

From the evidence Iblees motivation was an external influence on an internal motivation. Something about Adam caused something inside Iblees to rebel. Why? Apparently none of the other angels did. Iblees had something in his very nature (being derived from God) that caused his rebellion.

My ultimate question from the verse is: what vindication does the Muslim God have when charged with the problem of Evil and his self-affirmed ordination of it? Looking online here and there the only answer I get is Allah does what he pleases. Essentially its equivalant to: Allah ordains evil because it pleases him. I question whether that is something Muslims would agree with. I am just probing for knowledge.

As Iblees was the most beautiful of angels...i imagine he was upset to bow before a human. That's all I have as a non-Muslim.
baggins
Posts: 855
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9/19/2012 1:41:25 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/18/2012 5:24:40 PM, MattDescopa wrote:
a response to the bible study group?

I wouldn't call it a response. Yes, I got the idea from there.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.