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Morality

Invalid
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9/18/2012 9:17:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I've heard quite often, even from my old religion teacher, that morality came from god. I've heard that atheists are immoral, or that they only know morals because god gave it to humanity. How insulting is that? Not just to atheists, but to humanity in general. Basically, these people say that humans are incapable of sorting out right from wrong without divine intervention.
Humans are perfectly capable of morality by themselves, and there's no reason to say otherwise.
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."
- Christopher Hitchens
Archistrategos
Posts: 602
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9/18/2012 10:06:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/18/2012 9:17:30 PM, Invalid wrote:
I've heard quite often, even from my old religion teacher, that morality came from god. I've heard that atheists are immoral, or that they only know morals because god gave it to humanity. How insulting is that? Not just to atheists, but to humanity in general. Basically, these people say that humans are incapable of sorting out right from wrong without divine intervention.
Humans are perfectly capable of morality by themselves, and there's no reason to say otherwise.

Morality was established at "Let there be light"

And everything that came before man is braided into man at "Let us create Man in our image..."

Why else would Jesus refer to an infant as a model citizen for the Kingdom of Heaven?
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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9/18/2012 10:16:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/18/2012 10:06:18 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
At 9/18/2012 9:17:30 PM, Invalid wrote:
I've heard quite often, even from my old religion teacher, that morality came from god. I've heard that atheists are immoral, or that they only know morals because god gave it to humanity. How insulting is that? Not just to atheists, but to humanity in general. Basically, these people say that humans are incapable of sorting out right from wrong without divine intervention.
Humans are perfectly capable of morality by themselves, and there's no reason to say otherwise.

Morality was established at "Let there be light"

And everything that came before man is braided into man at "Let us create Man in our image..."

Why else would Jesus refer to an infant as a model citizen for the Kingdom of Heaven?

The Fool: If we got our morals simply from God then we would never be moral. Because you first have to know what Good ISm before you could know what it means to say God is good. OR else you just have Ghost word. That is we need to know what is moral to even be able to know if God is moral.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
Archistrategos
Posts: 602
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9/18/2012 10:32:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/18/2012 10:16:22 PM, The_Fool_on_the_hill wrote:
At 9/18/2012 10:06:18 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
At 9/18/2012 9:17:30 PM, Invalid wrote:
I've heard quite often, even from my old religion teacher, that morality came from god. I've heard that atheists are immoral, or that they only know morals because god gave it to humanity. How insulting is that? Not just to atheists, but to humanity in general. Basically, these people say that humans are incapable of sorting out right from wrong without divine intervention.
Humans are perfectly capable of morality by themselves, and there's no reason to say otherwise.

Morality was established at "Let there be light"

And everything that came before man is braided into man at "Let us create Man in our image..."

Why else would Jesus refer to an infant as a model citizen for the Kingdom of Heaven?

The Fool: If we got our morals simply from God then we would never be moral. Because you first have to know what Good ISm before you could know what it means to say God is good. OR else you just have Ghost word. That is we need to know what is moral to even be able to know if God is moral.

Unless it is part of our inborn created nature in the image of God.

Why else would Jesus point to an infant and say that this is a model for a citizen of The Kingdom?
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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9/19/2012 1:11:46 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Because infants are trusting.

We are to trust in Christ.

However, no.one chooses Christ; he chooses them.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
annanicole
Posts: 19,785
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9/19/2012 1:14:47 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/19/2012 1:11:46 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Because infants are trusting.

We are to trust in Christ.

However, no.one chooses Christ; he chooses them.

Infants do not have the capacity to trust. They are helpless (and sinless).
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
baggins
Posts: 855
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9/19/2012 1:36:57 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/18/2012 9:17:30 PM, Invalid wrote:
I've heard quite often, even from my old religion teacher, that morality came from god. I've heard that atheists are immoral, or that they only know morals because god gave it to humanity. How insulting is that? Not just to atheists, but to humanity in general. Basically, these people say that humans are incapable of sorting out right from wrong without divine intervention.
Humans are perfectly capable of morality by themselves, and there's no reason to say otherwise.

Morality does indeed come from commandments of God. On other hand the commandments of God are as per the human 'fitrah' (or nature). Atheists may rely on this conscience given by God for answering many questions about morality. They many also build artificial philosophical systems to lofty arguments and principles to distinguish between morality and immorality. Yet they can never have the kind of certainty that theists have. At some level atheists will always have doubts about their own arguments and intuition.

This is not intended as insult. This is a fact.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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9/19/2012 8:26:01 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/19/2012 1:36:57 AM, baggins wrote:
Morality does indeed come from commandments of God. On other hand the commandments of God are as per the human 'fitrah' (or nature). Atheists may rely on this conscience given by God for answering many questions about morality. They many also build artificial philosophical systems to lofty arguments and principles to distinguish between morality and immorality. Yet they can never have the kind of certainty that theists have. At some level atheists will always have doubts about their own arguments and intuition.

This is not intended as insult. This is a fact.

If morality comes from human nature; then, humans should be naturally good.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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9/19/2012 9:03:47 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Morality and behavioural patterns come from evolution. Although, that doesn't make it objective.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Invalid
Posts: 105
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9/19/2012 12:32:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/19/2012 1:36:57 AM, baggins wrote:
At 9/18/2012 9:17:30 PM, Invalid wrote:
I've heard quite often, even from my old religion teacher, that morality came from god. I've heard that atheists are immoral, or that they only know morals because god gave it to humanity. How insulting is that? Not just to atheists, but to humanity in general. Basically, these people say that humans are incapable of sorting out right from wrong without divine intervention.
Humans are perfectly capable of morality by themselves, and there's no reason to say otherwise.

Morality does indeed come from commandments of God. On other hand the commandments of God are as per the human 'fitrah' (or nature). Atheists may rely on this conscience given by God for answering many questions about morality. They many also build artificial philosophical systems to lofty arguments and principles to distinguish between morality and immorality. Yet they can never have the kind of certainty that theists have. At some level atheists will always have doubts about their own arguments and intuition.

This is not intended as insult. This is a fact.

Atheists don't have the kind of certainty about religion that theists do? I'm sorry, but I consider it morally wrong to oppress anyone because of race, religion, sexual orientation or other factor that isn't one you hold yourself. Yet, that is precisely what people of religion do (granted not everyone). If I'm to take the states as an example, you see people trying to ban gay marriage because it is "morally wrong". I'll be more than happy to provide any moral issues prevalent in religion. People use religion to justify actions that affect other people extremely negatively. Therefore it has lost any moral ground.
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."
- Christopher Hitchens
Archistrategos
Posts: 602
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9/19/2012 1:25:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/19/2012 8:26:01 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 9/19/2012 1:36:57 AM, baggins wrote:
Morality does indeed come from commandments of God. On other hand the commandments of God are as per the human 'fitrah' (or nature). Atheists may rely on this conscience given by God for answering many questions about morality. They many also build artificial philosophical systems to lofty arguments and principles to distinguish between morality and immorality. Yet they can never have the kind of certainty that theists have. At some level atheists will always have doubts about their own arguments and intuition.

This is not intended as insult. This is a fact.

If morality comes from human nature; then, humans should be naturally good.

And we are ......until we recoil and react from the traumas of the worlds errors....errors that have been passed on and on and on and on......
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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9/19/2012 1:38:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/19/2012 12:32:29 PM, Invalid wrote:
At 9/19/2012 1:36:57 AM, baggins wrote:
At 9/18/2012 9:17:30 PM, Invalid wrote:
I've heard quite often, even from my old religion teacher, that morality came from god. I've heard that atheists are immoral, or that they only know morals because god gave it to humanity. How insulting is that? Not just to atheists, but to humanity in general. Basically, these people say that humans are incapable of sorting out right from wrong without divine intervention.
Humans are perfectly capable of morality by themselves, and there's no reason to say otherwise.

Morality does indeed come from commandments of God. On other hand the commandments of God are as per the human 'fitrah' (or nature). Atheists may rely on this conscience given by God for answering many questions about morality. They many also build artificial philosophical systems to lofty arguments and principles to distinguish between morality and immorality. Yet they can never have the kind of certainty that theists have. At some level atheists will always have doubts about their own arguments and intuition.

This is not intended as insult. This is a fact.

Atheists don't have the kind of certainty about religion that theists do? I'm sorry, but I consider it morally wrong to oppress anyone because of race, religion, sexual orientation or other factor that isn't one you hold yourself. Yet, that is precisely what people of religion do (granted not everyone). If I'm to take the states as an example, you see people trying to ban gay marriage because it is "morally wrong". I'll be more than happy to provide any moral issues prevalent in religion. People use religion to justify actions that affect other people extremely negatively. Therefore it has lost any moral ground.

Are those who disagree with your political ideas not allowed to vote their conscience, no matter the source of their morality?? God is the only source for morality, if He isn't, then morality is subjective and up to the individual. God help us if that ever becomes the ruling ideology.
Archistrategos
Posts: 602
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9/19/2012 2:02:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/19/2012 1:38:20 PM, medic0506 wrote:
Are those who disagree with your political ideas not allowed to vote their conscience, no matter the source of their morality?? God is the only source for morality, if He isn't, then morality is subjective and up to the individual. God help us if that ever becomes the ruling ideology.

What if i told you that morality is a rotating torus of light that fills the universe at "let there be light". It's central column is a laser of white light with one downwards direction of flow. One path but two possible directions. Harmony with it is the robe of white of the redeemed and the rising about the vault. Obstruct the flow of light and be pushed down further into material creations. Obstruct it completely and be destroyed as a form.

The wall of flames in 1 Cor 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.12 But if any man buildeth on the foundation gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, stubble;13 each man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it is revealed in fire; and the fire itself shall prove each man's work of what sort it is.14 If any man's work shall abide which he built thereon, he shall receive a reward.15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as through fire.
Archistrategos
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9/19/2012 3:08:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/19/2012 3:06:38 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
The rules of ethics (morality) are man made, just like the rules of the English language and the rules of Chess.

Based on what?
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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9/19/2012 3:11:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/19/2012 3:08:08 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
At 9/19/2012 3:06:38 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
The rules of ethics (morality) are man made, just like the rules of the English language and the rules of Chess.

Based on what?

I don't understand the question...What do you mean "based on what"?
Archistrategos
Posts: 602
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9/19/2012 3:20:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/19/2012 3:11:02 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 9/19/2012 3:08:08 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
At 9/19/2012 3:06:38 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
The rules of ethics (morality) are man made, just like the rules of the English language and the rules of Chess.

Based on what?

I don't understand the question...What do you mean "based on what"?

What are man made morals and ethics based on?
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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9/19/2012 3:24:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/19/2012 3:20:59 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
At 9/19/2012 3:11:02 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 9/19/2012 3:08:08 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
At 9/19/2012 3:06:38 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
The rules of ethics (morality) are man made, just like the rules of the English language and the rules of Chess.

Based on what?

I don't understand the question...What do you mean "based on what"?

What are man made morals and ethics based on?

Sympathy, empathy, logic, reason, flourishing of the species ect...
The_Fool_on_the_hill
Posts: 6,071
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9/19/2012 4:21:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/19/2012 8:26:01 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 9/19/2012 1:36:57 AM, baggins wrote:
Morality does indeed come from commandments of God. On other hand the commandments of God are as per the human 'fitrah' (or nature).

The Fool: This is flat out false. Moral philosphy was around way before bibles. We have a natrual inclination to think about them. Regards of any belief about them. The fact that such moral reasoning and moral questions Never cease, it be cause we recognize there necessity.

Atheists may rely on this conscience given by God for answering many questions about morality.

The Fool: Its a baseless assumptoin. Its could never be known without dropping the criteria for knowledge so low that its useless. And that which could never be true knowledge is by necessity FALSE knowledge.

They many also build artificial philosophical systems to lofty arguments and principles to distinguish between morality and immorality.

The Fool: And it is progressive. Like quality is alot better then ROman ages or when the church had all the power. It is cause by the seperation of church and state that we have improved.

Yet they can never have the kind of certainty that theists have. At some level atheists will always have doubts about their own arguments and intuition.

The Fool: Saying something is certain doesn't making it certain. You should always have some doubt that is the only way we can IMPROVE.

This is not intended as insult. This is a fact

The Fool: If this is how you are using the word 'fact' then everything is a fact.

If morality comes from human nature; then, humans should be naturally good.

The Fool: We are self improving. We make error but we are error correcting over time. And we have advanced from the days of the inquisition. Through the Age of Enlightenment. The age of Reason.
"The bud disappears when the blossom breaks through, and we might say that the former is refuted by the latter; in the same way when the fruit comes, the blossom may be explained to be a false form of the plant's existence, for the fruit appears as its true nature in place of the blossom. These stages are not merely differentiated; they supplant one another as being incompatible with one another." G. W. F. HEGEL
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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9/19/2012 4:43:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/19/2012 9:03:47 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
Morality and behavioural patterns come from evolution. Although, that doesn't make it objective.

Are you now giving evolution an intelligence?? How else could it know that morality is something that an intelligent species would need?? That only makes sense if God is behind what you're calling evolution.
Invalid
Posts: 105
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9/20/2012 2:20:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/19/2012 4:43:44 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 9/19/2012 9:03:47 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
Morality and behavioural patterns come from evolution. Although, that doesn't make it objective.

Are you now giving evolution an intelligence?? How else could it know that morality is something that an intelligent species would need?? That only makes sense if God is behind what you're calling evolution.

He isn't "giving evolution an intelligence". That doesn't even make sense. Morality is a result of evolution, as is intelliegence. When we hurt another person in any way, we can see that we hurt them. We also don't like being hurt ourselves, so as a result we don't hurt others. That's morality. It has nothing to do with a god. Sympathy and empathy are prime building blocks of morality. The commandments are nonsense as they were not the first rules against immoral acts. The code of Ur-Nammu predates the commandments by 600-700 years.
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."
- Christopher Hitchens
Lordknukle
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9/20/2012 2:23:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/19/2012 4:43:44 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 9/19/2012 9:03:47 AM, Lordknukle wrote:
Morality and behavioural patterns come from evolution. Although, that doesn't make it objective.

Are you now giving evolution an intelligence?? How else could it know that morality is something that an intelligent species would need?? That only makes sense if God is behind what you're calling evolution.

Evolution has no purpose nor goal- it just happens. Those organisms which have the highest propagation of their own genes force evolution to happen. The reason that these organisms have a higher propagation of their genes is because their genes bestow something beneficial to them which lets them survive longer, reproduce more, or both. Sometimes, these beneficial effects are physical mutations, while otherwise they are sometimes psychological mutations. These psychological mutations often develop into behavioural patterns (ex. don't kill your relatives), which becomes morality. It is important to note though that this morality is not objective and is subject to change dependent on gene mutations.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
s-anthony
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9/20/2012 9:45:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/19/2012 1:25:57 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
And we are ......until we recoil and react from the traumas of the worlds errors....errors that have been passed on and on and on and on......

From where do these errors come?
s-anthony
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9/20/2012 9:50:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/19/2012 1:38:20 PM, medic0506 wrote:
Are those who disagree with your political ideas not allowed to vote their conscience, no matter the source of their morality?? God is the only source for morality, if He isn't, then morality is subjective and up to the individual. God help us if that ever becomes the ruling ideology.

To whose god are we referring?
Archistrategos
Posts: 602
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9/20/2012 10:58:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/20/2012 9:45:09 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 9/19/2012 1:25:57 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
And we are ......until we recoil and react from the traumas of the worlds errors....errors that have been passed on and on and on and on......

From where do these errors come?

You mean where did they originate? Or where in the current environment?
s-anthony
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9/20/2012 11:27:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/20/2012 10:58:03 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
You mean where did they originate? Or where in the current environment?

I mean from where did they originate?
Archistrategos
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9/21/2012 12:22:09 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/20/2012 11:27:26 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 9/20/2012 10:58:03 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
You mean where did they originate? Or where in the current environment?

I mean from where did they originate?

That's a complex answer....some would say Eve.....others would say when the Sons of God came down and took the daughters of men for wives... others say when the Annunaki spliced their DNA with ours.......then again all that should have been fixed at Noahs flood.

At it's essence I see it as is simply the nature of the path of growth and choice that man is currently in the process of. A process of God's doings and thinking's. For us to have enlightened free will, we must not only know what to do but what not to do.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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9/21/2012 1:01:07 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/19/2012 1:14:47 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 9/19/2012 1:11:46 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Because infants are trusting.

We are to trust in Christ.

However, no.one chooses Christ; he chooses them.

Infants do not have the capacity to trust. They are helpless (and sinless).


Hmm, then why do they end up sinning?

Why does it say that man is sinful from youth, if we are actually innocent.

Furthermore, how does something sinful produce something sinless?

8 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

In case your not familiar with the 'man' tree-- it's bad.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.