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THEBOMB
Posts: 2,872
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9/20/2012 3:55:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
"Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. "He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters." (http://www.vatican.va...)

"Nobody may be forced to act against his convictions, nor is anyone to be restrained from acting in accordance with his conscience in religious matters in private or in public, alone or in association with others, within due limits." This right is based on the very nature of the human person, whose dignity enables him freely to assent to the divine truth which transcends the temporal order. For this reason it "continues to exist even in those who do not live up to their obligation of seeking the truth and adhering to it." (http://www.vatican.va...)

In other words, if your conscience tells you something, it is moral no matter what the church teaches. How do you reconcile that the Church is not the only source of truth, but in fact, you are a source of truth?
Archistrategos
Posts: 602
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9/20/2012 4:12:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/20/2012 3:55:46 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
In other words, if your conscience tells you something, it is moral no matter what the church teaches. How do you reconcile that the Church is not the only source of truth, but in fact, you are a source of truth?

Hence..."The Living Word" =)
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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9/20/2012 5:10:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'm sorry, but you did read the source? That point is about religious liberty, not personal duty.

"The right to religious liberty is neither a moral license to adhere to error, nor a supposed right to error, but rather a natural right of the human person to civil liberty, i.e., immunity, within just limits, from external constraint in religious matters by political authorities. This natural right ought to be acknowledged in the juridical order of society in such a way that it constitutes a civil right."

Or am I mistaken?
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
THEBOMB
Posts: 2,872
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9/20/2012 6:06:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/20/2012 5:10:26 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
I'm sorry, but you did read the source? That point is about religious liberty, not personal duty.

"The right to religious liberty is neither a moral license to adhere to error, nor a supposed right to error, but rather a natural right of the human person to civil liberty, i.e., immunity, within just limits, from external constraint in religious matters by political authorities. This natural right ought to be acknowledged in the juridical order of society in such a way that it constitutes a civil right."

Or am I mistaken?

You're right, it is about religious liberty, but as I (rather the Vatican) said "This right is based on the very nature of the human person, whose dignity enables him freely to assent to the divine truth which transcends the temporal order. For this reason it "continues to exist even in those who do not live up to their obligation of seeking the truth and adhering to it."

The way I have always interpreted this to mean is that all religions have some shred of truth to them, and that thus, the Catholic Church is not the only source of truth.

"Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. "He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters."

This basically means that if your conscience says one thing and the church says another thing, go with your conscience over the church.
Dogknox
Posts: 5,094
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9/20/2012 7:12:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/20/2012 3:55:46 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
"Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. "He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters." (http://www.vatican.va...)

"Nobody may be forced to act against his convictions, nor is anyone to be restrained from acting in accordance with his conscience in religious matters in private or in public, alone or in association with others, within due limits." This right is based on the very nature of the human person, whose dignity enables him freely to assent to the divine truth which transcends the temporal order. For this reason it "continues to exist even in those who do not live up to their obligation of seeking the truth and adhering to it." (http://www.vatican.va...)

In other words, if your conscience tells you something, it is moral no matter what the church teaches. How do you reconcile that the Church is not the only source of truth, but in fact, you are a source of truth?
THEBOMB You have good questions.
When it comes to "Faith & Morals" the Church teaches TRUTH!

Conscience is NOT morals, you can be totally wron if you follow your poorly formed "Conscience"!
Conscience is the faculty that warns you if you're about to do something wrong--but only if you already have formed your conscience properly, and that's a job for your intellect.

THEBOMB You mistakenly think that conscience is the faculty that tells us what is right and what is wrong.
With your intellect you learn what"s right and wrong, and then conscience "sounds off" when you are about to violate the standards your intellect has learned. If you have no standards, you"ll never hear the alarm.

THEBOMB If your conscience is formed poorly, then your moral judgments won"t be trustworthy. Got it? They are different!

THEBOMB if you"ve been taught that there"s nothing wrong with stealing"or if you"ve never been taught that stealing is wrong"you won"t have any inhibitions against stealing.
Your conscience won"t bother you when you steal!!

YES..we have an obligation to follow our conscience, even a poorly formed or "erroneous" one, but we also have an obligation to form our consciences properly. For Catholics, this means following what Jesus teaches in Scripture and Tradition through the magisterium of the Church.

Dogknox
Dogknox
Posts: 5,094
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9/20/2012 11:18:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
THEBOMB The Holy Catholic Church Teaches it is MORALLY WONG to have an "Abortion"!

Abortion is WRONG!!! Period! Try as you might, you must twist your CONSCIENCE to believe it is NOT WRONG! Your decision to have an abortion will go against the TEACHING of the Holy Catholic Church and thus GOD; And your conscience!
Abortion is murder of the innocent!!
Abortion is fixing your problems by killing the innocent!
Solving your problems by murder!

Morals are the cut and dry, to the point, black and white!
FACT: It is wrong to steal!
Conscience is the police man of your mind!

FACT: It is wrong to break your neighbors window!
BUT...
Is it wrong, to break your neighbors window to wake him up, warning him his house is on fire!? Morals say: NO! (no sitting on the fence) Saving life overrides the window!

Church teaches the truth, INFALLIBLE (Incapable of erring) when it comes to Faith & Morals!

The Holy Catholic Church stands alone in the world, never to waver, condemning Abortion!

Dogknox
Dogknox
Posts: 5,094
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9/21/2012 12:16:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
THEBOMB Yes other religions have truth.. Only the Holy Catholic Church has the FULLNESS of truth!

The Holy Catholic Church teaches "Jesus is God" this is truth!! Other religions also teach "Jesus is God" they also teach truth!

The Holy Catholic Church teaches "Union is between Man and Woman" this is TRUTH! This is MORALLY right! All other religions teach "union between man & man or woman & woman is a union, if it is a union of love!" This is Morally WRONG and the Holy Catholic Church stands alone against the whole world proclaiming it so!
THEBOMB She will never, ever change her teaching against; "Union of the same gender" she will always teach it is wrong! Some, so called christian churches even condone homosexual pastors!!

THEBOMB your words.. This basically means that if your conscience says one thing and the church says another thing, go with your conscience over the church.

I reply: you twist it to the extreme!!
Your way of twisting the TRUTH comes to this.. A conscience that says.. "Sex with children" is perfectly okay! Do you understand???
Tossing acid in your "X" girlfriends face is perfectly okay, by your CONSCIENCE! "An eye for an eye"!

THEBOMB If your conscience says; "Sex with the same gender is wrong" and the church says "it is okay (sex with the same gender)" then go with your conscience over the church.

You can't always trust "CONSCIENCE" to lead you to God! BUT you can trust morals and the faith taught by the Holy Catholic Church! Letting this ONE CHURCH guide you will never fail you!!

Fullness of truth in the teaching of "Faith & Morals"!!

Dogknox