Total Posts:76|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

? for proponents of a literal flood

brittwaller
Posts: 331
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/21/2009 6:05:56 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
This is something that just occurred to me a little while ago; I thought I would ask around, as the answers could prove to be interesting.

Assuming that a worldwide flood, as presented by the bible, actually happened - and for the sake of argument also disregarding the physical and logistical impossibilities involved - one question remains:

Did the ark have a hold for either all of the saltwater fish species, or the freshwater species?

Logic dictates it would have to be one or the other... of course in assuming the reality of a flood and an ark I may have given too wide a berth for illogic. On second thought, logic actually dictates that there would have to have been a separate hold for each set - meaning both. That's quite a demand for a ship that already holds countless millions of animals... just curious.

I look forward to an actual answer.
Don't I take care of them all?
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/21/2009 7:13:58 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/21/2009 6:05:56 AM, brittwaller wrote:
This is something that just occurred to me a little while ago; I thought I would ask around, as the answers could prove to be interesting.

Assuming that a worldwide flood, as presented by the bible, actually happened - and for the sake of argument also disregarding the physical and logistical impossibilities involved - one question remains:

Did the ark have a hold for either all of the saltwater fish species, or the freshwater species?

Logic dictates it would have to be one or the other... of course in assuming the reality of a flood and an ark I may have given too wide a berth for illogic. On second thought, logic actually dictates that there would have to have been a separate hold for each set - meaning both. That's quite a demand for a ship that already holds countless millions of animals... just curious.

I look forward to an actual answer.

If youre going to ignore all physical and natural impossibilities regarding the flood, then why not ignore this impossibility as well?

I mean, im guessing the standard answer from Creationists will be that the freshwater fishes were temporarily allowed to live in Salt water due to the powers of the almighty God. Hes God. Nuff said.

But quite frankly, theres an even more important question here. If christians are able to ignore the impossibilities that are posed by a global flood, thanks to claiming that God can do anything and thus, it doesnt matter if Noah made a boat the size of a peanut, they still wouldve survived, then whats the point? Why bother having Noah build a boat? Why bother flooding the world? Why not just have God kill every living human on the planet except for Noah and his family, without the need for all that ship building? Whats the point of defending Creationism with Science if you can just pull a huge science-nullifying explanation out of your butt?
brittwaller
Posts: 331
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/21/2009 7:35:34 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
...thanks for killing my sure-to-be fun-filled thread;)

My fault. I should have asked for x-tian only answers.
Don't I take care of them all?
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/21/2009 7:40:31 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Poseidan originally intended fish to be able to live in all water, but when they started to build Atlantis to rival Poseidan's ocean kingdom, he split the fish into salt-water breathing and fresh-water breathing and scattered them all over the globe.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
brittwaller
Posts: 331
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/21/2009 8:00:58 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/21/2009 7:40:31 AM, Kleptin wrote:
Poseidan originally intended fish to be able to live in all water, but when they started to build Atlantis to rival Poseidan's ocean kingdom, he split the fish into salt-water breathing and fresh-water breathing and scattered them all over the globe.

Well that covers the fish... but what about the mammals? @>@
Don't I take care of them all?
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/22/2009 10:49:50 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/21/2009 8:00:58 AM, brittwaller wrote:
At 9/21/2009 7:40:31 AM, Kleptin wrote:
Poseidan originally intended fish to be able to live in all water, but when they started to build Atlantis to rival Poseidan's ocean kingdom, he split the fish into salt-water breathing and fresh-water breathing and scattered them all over the globe.

Well that covers the fish... but what about the mammals? @>@

The mammales all died, but God, being all powerful, made Noah pregenant with all the mammals of the world. Problem solved. :D
ToastOfDestiny
Posts: 990
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/22/2009 6:41:17 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Actually, with the amount of rain/water emerging, water would have been diluted to the point of being fresh.

BTW it was totally Oceanus not Poseidon. Old Gods FTW!
At 10/11/2009 8:28:18 PM, banker wrote:
Our demise and industrial destruction
At 10/11/2009 10:00:21 PM, regebro wrote:
Only exists in your head, as already shown.

At 10/11/2009 8:28:18 PM, banker wrote:
reveal why you answer with a question mark
At 10/11/2009 10:00:21 PM, regebro wrote:
Because it was a question.

RFDs Pl0x:
http://www.debate.org...
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/23/2009 8:05:22 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/21/2009 6:05:56 AM, brittwaller wrote:
This is something that just occurred to me a little while ago; I thought I would ask around, as the answers could prove to be interesting.

Assuming that a worldwide flood, as presented by the bible, actually happened - and for the sake of argument also disregarding the physical and logistical impossibilities involved - one question remains:

Did the ark have a hold for either all of the saltwater fish species, or the freshwater species?

Logic dictates it would have to be one or the other... of course in assuming the reality of a flood and an ark I may have given too wide a berth for illogic. On second thought, logic actually dictates that there would have to have been a separate hold for each set - meaning both. That's quite a demand for a ship that already holds countless millions of animals... just curious.

I look forward to an actual answer.

Millions of species? Have you not heard of this new theory of evolution? New species are created through mutations due to habitat etc.. there were only a few distinct species in Noahs day (roughly along the lines of our 'Genus' classification)
And ONLY fresh water fish as there were no oceans before the flood: Which of course raises more questions than answers..

Toodle pip.
The Cross.. the Cross.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/23/2009 9:04:35 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/23/2009 8:05:22 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
At 9/21/2009 6:05:56 AM, brittwaller wrote:
This is something that just occurred to me a little while ago; I thought I would ask around, as the answers could prove to be interesting.

Assuming that a worldwide flood, as presented by the bible, actually happened - and for the sake of argument also disregarding the physical and logistical impossibilities involved - one question remains:

Did the ark have a hold for either all of the saltwater fish species, or the freshwater species?

Logic dictates it would have to be one or the other... of course in assuming the reality of a flood and an ark I may have given too wide a berth for illogic. On second thought, logic actually dictates that there would have to have been a separate hold for each set - meaning both. That's quite a demand for a ship that already holds countless millions of animals... just curious.

I look forward to an actual answer.

Millions of species? Have you not heard of this new theory of evolution? New species are created through mutations due to habitat etc.. there were only a few distinct species in Noahs day (roughly along the lines of our 'Genus' classification)
And ONLY fresh water fish as there were no oceans before the flood: Which of course raises more questions than answers..

Toodle pip.

Then all the fresh water fish would be dead, because the oceans are now saltwater.
Floid
Posts: 751
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/23/2009 9:34:46 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
: Millions of species? Have you not heard of this new theory of evolution? New species are created through mutations due to habitat etc.. there were only a few distinct species in Noahs day (roughly along the lines of our 'Genus' classification)
And ONLY fresh water fish as there were no oceans before the flood: Which of course raises more questions than answers..

This is why you never approach the illogical with logical arguments.
JustCallMeTarzan
Posts: 1,922
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/23/2009 3:46:28 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I've got a much better one - if the world flooded to the tops of the highest mountains (~ 27,000 feet) then where did the quadrillions of gallons of water go? The volume of which is more than the volume of the earth's crust?
leet4A1
Posts: 1,986
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/23/2009 4:39:12 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/23/2009 3:46:28 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
I've got a much better one - if the world flooded to the tops of the highest mountains (~ 27,000 feet) then where did the quadrillions of gallons of water go? The volume of which is more than the volume of the earth's crust?

I still haven't heard a good answer for this one...
"Let me tell you the truth. The truth is, 'what is'. And 'what should be' is a fantasy, a terrible terrible lie that someone gave to the people long ago. The 'what should be' never did exist, but people keep trying to live up to it. There is no 'what should be,' there is only what is." - Lenny Bruce

"Satan goes to church, did you know that?" - Godsands

"And Genisis 1 does match modern science... you just have to try really hard." - GR33K FR33K5
ToastOfDestiny
Posts: 990
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/23/2009 6:10:04 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/23/2009 8:05:22 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

Millions of species? Have you not heard of this new theory of evolution? New species are created through mutations due to habitat etc.. there were only a few distinct species in Noahs day (roughly along the lines of our 'Genus' classification)
And ONLY fresh water fish as there were no oceans before the flood: Which of course raises more questions than answers..

Toodle pip.

You realize that this means we'd need one common ancestor from EACH of today's genera (plural of genus)? This includes our millions of insect genera.

Also, what of the fruit flies which could not survive 40 days and 40 nights? All those animals with incredibly small generation time? And then all the microbes which cannot survive in water? Noah would've needed a strain of most lethal diseases on board.
At 10/11/2009 8:28:18 PM, banker wrote:
Our demise and industrial destruction
At 10/11/2009 10:00:21 PM, regebro wrote:
Only exists in your head, as already shown.

At 10/11/2009 8:28:18 PM, banker wrote:
reveal why you answer with a question mark
At 10/11/2009 10:00:21 PM, regebro wrote:
Because it was a question.

RFDs Pl0x:
http://www.debate.org...
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/25/2009 4:25:37 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/23/2009 4:39:12 PM, leet4A1 wrote:
At 9/23/2009 3:46:28 PM, JustCallMeTarzan wrote:
I've got a much better one - if the world flooded to the tops of the highest mountains (~ 27,000 feet) then where did the quadrillions of gallons of water go? The volume of which is more than the volume of the earth's crust?

I still haven't heard a good answer for this one...

Then you obviously don't hang around the religious forum nearly enough!
I've answered it a few times..
(1) No one knows how the earth, including mountains, was then so we have NO data to start doing ridiculous sums with..
(2) JCMT is arguing from a 'if the Bible is true' position: SO if the Bible is true then God could have made the water disappear at any time..

Ever diminishing circles guys..
The Cross.. the Cross.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/25/2009 4:29:30 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/23/2009 6:10:04 PM, ToastOfDestiny wrote:
At 9/23/2009 8:05:22 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:

Millions of species? Have you not heard of this new theory of evolution? New species are created through mutations due to habitat etc.. there were only a few distinct species in Noahs day (roughly along the lines of our 'Genus' classification)
And ONLY fresh water fish as there were no oceans before the flood: Which of course raises more questions than answers..

Toodle pip.

You realize that this means we'd need one common ancestor from EACH of today's genera (plural of genus)? This includes our millions of insect genera.

Spiders, flys, beetles, Bees, wasps, I'm struggling to think of more..

Also, what of the fruit flies which could not survive 40 days and 40 nights? All those animals with incredibly small generation time? And then all the microbes which cannot survive in water? Noah would've needed a strain of most lethal diseases on board.

EVEN if we take what you say as true (I don't) you are talking as if there is no God, a God who can DO ANYTHING AT ANYTIME..
The Cross.. the Cross.
regebro
Posts: 1,152
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/25/2009 4:31:19 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Obviously God made all the fish into brackish water fish during the flood, and then changed them back. He also did the same with all non-fish that didn't fit on the ark. He made them into fish, and then back. Except the dinosaurs because they were all sinners. Way to much dinosaur sex.
So prove me wrong, then.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/25/2009 5:27:49 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/25/2009 4:31:19 AM, regebro wrote:
Obviously God made all the fish into brackish water fish during the flood, and then changed them back. He also did the same with all non-fish that didn't fit on the ark. He made them into fish, and then back. Except the dinosaurs because they were all sinners. Way to much dinosaur sex.

And in the last days shall come SCOFFERS..
The Cross.. the Cross.
regebro
Posts: 1,152
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/25/2009 6:06:02 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/25/2009 4:29:30 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Spiders, flys, beetles, Bees, wasps, I'm struggling to think of more..

Genus means families. Only of the things you mentioned above is an insect family, and that's Wasps.

Spiders are not even insects so that's a pretty serious fudgeup there.
Hint: Spders have eight legs, insects six.

Flies are an order (Diptera), of which there are probably hundred of families.
There are nine families of Bees.
Best of all are your mention of beetles. They are, like flies, and order. But it's the order with the most species of any order. There are hundreds of families and about 350.000 known species of beetles.

That's one heck of an evolving to do in a couple of thousand years, since noah. ;)

What surprises me is your constant desire to state things in topic you have absolutely NO CLUE about, without even bothering to look at Wikipedia first. It's like you *want* to be wrong and slapped in your face with your stupidity over and over again, like some sort of masochist. I mean, all it would have taken is for you to look at the Wikipedia page about Insects:

http://en.wikipedia.org...

It's all there. Hundreds of not thousands of families, and millions of species.
Not five.
So prove me wrong, then.
brittwaller
Posts: 331
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/25/2009 6:17:24 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
I was looking for sincere answers from an actual christian; however, I suppose I should have known you would post your garbage here eventually, as you always do.

Ever diminishing brain cells, guys.
Don't I take care of them all?
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/25/2009 11:31:24 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
The thing I've never got about the Flood, at least from a geological standpoint, is where all this water went, and how in the world the Earth was repopulated so fast with terrestrial plants and animals after such a globally devastating event. To add to that, why is there no record showing this mass extermination of all land animals and plants in the geologic record? It would show up pretty clearly, and pretty recent.

Then we get into the silliness of how Noah was able to get those animals on his, quite literally, smaller-than-needed ship. How did the animals have enough to eat, without resorting to killing each other to literal extinction? How was there enough room for animals to graze and get enough exercise over at least 40 days? How did Noah get all these animals - including the animals never heard of within his locale, like marsupials and etc. (funny how they aren't mentioned) - into the boat? And it must be every single animal, there is no room for "oh, Australia was spared the Flood" and other nonsense.

Finally, how was the human race populated after the Flood? Would there not be a lot of inbreeding if Noah was the source of the most recent incarnation of the human race? Shouldn't we see a common ancestor that recent within our DNA? How was there enough labour to rebuild civilization to basically the same height as it was before the Flood? How were the Americas and other continents repopulated after the Flood? Why is there a lack of mention of the Flood in other civilizations from around the same point in time?

I mean, when you take all of those questions and absurdities into account, doesn't it make more sense that the Flood never occurred, and that its myth was from the flooding of the Mediterranean Plain and other local events similar to it? It does to me.
brittwaller
Posts: 331
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/25/2009 11:46:05 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/25/2009 11:31:24 AM, Volkov wrote:
The thing I've never got about the Flood, at least from a geological standpoint, is where all this water went, and how in the world the Earth was repopulated so fast with terrestrial plants and animals after such a globally devastating event. To add to that, why is there no record showing this mass extermination of all land animals and plants in the geologic record? It would show up pretty clearly, and pretty recent.

Then we get into the silliness of how Noah was able to get those animals on his, quite literally, smaller-than-needed ship. How did the animals have enough to eat, without resorting to killing each other to literal extinction? How was there enough room for animals to graze and get enough exercise over at least 40 days? How did Noah get all these animals - including the animals never heard of within his locale, like marsupials and etc. (funny how they aren't mentioned) - into the boat? And it must be every single animal, there is no room for "oh, Australia was spared the Flood" and other nonsense.

Finally, how was the human race populated after the Flood? Would there not be a lot of inbreeding if Noah was the source of the most recent incarnation of the human race? Shouldn't we see a common ancestor that recent within our DNA? How was there enough labour to rebuild civilization to basically the same height as it was before the Flood? How were the Americas and other continents repopulated after the Flood? Why is there a lack of mention of the Flood in other civilizations from around the same point in time?

I mean, when you take all of those questions and absurdities into account, doesn't it make more sense that the Flood never occurred, and that its myth was from the flooding of the Mediterranean Plain and other local events similar to it? It does to me.

Obviously. However, one has to have sense enough to recognize sense...
Don't I take care of them all?
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/26/2009 3:39:41 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/25/2009 6:12:59 AM, Floid wrote:
I'm struggling to think

Statement of the day.

Out of context is the ONLY way you may claim even a glimse of a pallid victory..

All power to you..
The Cross.. the Cross.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/26/2009 3:44:03 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/25/2009 6:06:02 AM, regebro wrote:
At 9/25/2009 4:29:30 AM, DATCMOTO wrote:
Spiders, flys, beetles, Bees, wasps, I'm struggling to think of more..


Genus means families. Only of the things you mentioned above is an insect family, and that's Wasps.

Spiders are not even insects so that's a pretty serious fudgeup there.
Hint: Spders have eight legs, insects six.

Flies are an order (Diptera), of which there are probably hundred of families.
There are nine families of Bees.
Best of all are your mention of beetles. They are, like flies, and order. But it's the order with the most species of any order. There are hundreds of families and about 350.000 known species of beetles.

That's one heck of an evolving to do in a couple of thousand years, since noah. ;)

What surprises me is your constant desire to state things in topic you have absolutely NO CLUE about, without even bothering to look at Wikipedia first. It's like you *want* to be wrong and slapped in your face with your stupidity over and over again, like some sort of masochist. I mean, all it would have taken is for you to look at the Wikipedia page about Insects:

http://en.wikipedia.org...

It's all there. Hundreds of not thousands of families, and millions of species.
Not five.

But YOU are proposing that ALL creatures evolved from a single cell amoeba.. so for me to suggest that all animals came from a few KINDS (including spiders, beetles, flys, wasps, bees, etc etc) is hardly radical.

You have NOTHING but semantic gymnastics.. nothing.
The Cross.. the Cross.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/26/2009 7:24:45 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/25/2009 6:17:24 AM, brittwaller wrote:
I was looking for sincere answers from an actual christian; however, I suppose I should have known you would post your garbage here eventually, as you always do.

Ever diminishing brain cells, guys.

You're not going to get any sincere answers because there *are* none. The intellectual floor that has to be fallen through in order to have the mindset that Noah and his Ark really existed is several stories below the minimum to even BE on this site.

And even in the rare situation that someone will come forth and give you a legitimate Christian answer, it won't be in any form that is logical or coherent, and it would undoubtedly come from one of the two people on this site who are unable to participate in a meaningful debate that stems from the answer they give.

Lose-Lose situation.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
brittwaller
Posts: 331
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2009 7:05:25 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/26/2009 7:24:45 AM, Kleptin wrote:
At 9/25/2009 6:17:24 AM, brittwaller wrote:
I was looking for sincere answers from an actual christian; however, I suppose I should have known you would post your garbage here eventually, as you always do.

Ever diminishing brain cells, guys.

You're not going to get any sincere answers because there *are* none. The intellectual floor that has to be fallen through in order to have the mindset that Noah and his Ark really existed is several stories below the minimum to even BE on this site.

And even in the rare situation that someone will come forth and give you a legitimate Christian answer, it won't be in any form that is logical or coherent, and it would undoubtedly come from one of the two people on this site who are unable to participate in a meaningful debate that stems from the answer they give.

Lose-Lose situation.

It was worth a try, I thought. Call me an optimist?
Don't I take care of them all?
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2009 7:11:27 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/27/2009 7:05:25 AM, brittwaller wrote:
At 9/26/2009 7:24:45 AM, Kleptin wrote:
At 9/25/2009 6:17:24 AM, brittwaller wrote:
I was looking for sincere answers from an actual christian; however, I suppose I should have known you would post your garbage here eventually, as you always do.

Ever diminishing brain cells, guys.

You're not going to get any sincere answers because there *are* none. The intellectual floor that has to be fallen through in order to have the mindset that Noah and his Ark really existed is several stories below the minimum to even BE on this site.

And even in the rare situation that someone will come forth and give you a legitimate Christian answer, it won't be in any form that is logical or coherent, and it would undoubtedly come from one of the two people on this site who are unable to participate in a meaningful debate that stems from the answer they give.

Lose-Lose situation.

It was worth a try, I thought. Call me an optimist?

Haha, fishing in a glass of water XD but at least the glass is half full?
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
DATCMOTO
Posts: 6,160
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/28/2009 5:27:37 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
You've had your answer but it wasn't the one you WANTED so you stick your fingers in your ears and LA LA LA can't hear you! LA LA LA.

Ignoring someone is NOT beating them.. it's AVOIDING them.
The Cross.. the Cross.