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Religion - Faith = ?

Df0512
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9/21/2012 5:34:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I just want to know how Christians, Muslims, or whoever can be so narrow minded with so much discovery going on in the world today. Without faith religion has no basis of fact so how can you argue it so passionately. Just so you know, I grew up in church. My father is a pastor of his own church. I have read the bible and heard it all. Now I am old enough to question what I have heard but no one I knows seems willing to discuss such topic. So please...
MattDescopa
Posts: 356
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9/21/2012 5:36:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/21/2012 5:34:35 PM, Df0512 wrote:
I just want to know how Christians, Muslims, or whoever can be so narrow minded with so much discovery going on in the world today. Without faith religion has no basis of fact so how can you argue it so passionately. Just so you know, I grew up in church. My father is a pastor of his own church. I have read the bible and heard it all. Now I am old enough to question what I have heard but no one I knows seems willing to discuss such topic. So please...

Religion-faith= logic, facts, reasoning.

Religion + faith + logic/facts/reasoning = strong believer who can withstand heavy criticism
Df0512
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9/21/2012 5:45:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Religion without faith nothing, but i was hoping that point wouldn't come up until a little later lol. I guess a better question would be, and i hope some one of religious belief can answer this, what makes one more anymore right than the next? Hoping or a religious answer.
Archistrategos
Posts: 602
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9/21/2012 5:47:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Can any of you identify the original meaning of the word faith before it got bastardized into meaning really really really strong belief to the contrary of any and all evidence...aka ignorance.......?
Df0512
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9/21/2012 5:53:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Not without looking it up but instance faith means a really really strong belief. And I bet most people would agree to that. Maybe a bit simpler than the actual definition.
THEBOMB
Posts: 2,872
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9/21/2012 5:53:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/21/2012 5:45:39 PM, Df0512 wrote:
Religion without faith nothing, but i was hoping that point wouldn't come up until a little later lol. I guess a better question would be, and i hope some one of religious belief can answer this, what makes one more anymore right than the next? Hoping or a religious answer.

Quite simply, the purpose of religion is to find truth. Some may object to this notion, but ultimately all religions have that in common. The search and desire for truth about the cosmos. I have a question for you now, "right" in what sense of the word?
Archistrategos
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9/21/2012 6:06:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/21/2012 5:53:31 PM, Df0512 wrote:
Not without looking it up but instance faith means a really really strong belief. And I bet most people would agree to that. Maybe a bit simpler than the actual definition.

You should look it up because it's original meaning was experience of Truth that either confirmed or denied one's belief

Faith meant knowing by direct experience , thus belief no longer functions as such.

Do you believe you can get up and walk? No there is no mental yes or no because you have experienced it, mastered it and now just do it when you decide to. You have faith that you can walk.
Df0512
Posts: 966
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9/21/2012 6:23:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/21/2012 6:06:33 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
At 9/21/2012 5:53:31 PM, Df0512 wrote:
Not without looking it up but instance faith means a really really strong belief. And I bet most people would agree to that. Maybe a bit simpler than the actual definition.

You should look it up because it's original meaning was experience of Truth that either confirmed or denied one's belief

Faith meant knowing by direct experience , thus belief no longer functions as such.

Do you believe you can get up and walk? No there is no mental yes or no because you have experienced it, mastered it and now just do it when you decide to. You have faith that you can walk.

Well that kind of defeats the purpose for the word. You're saying that people who haven't had a "supernatural experience" can't have faith in god?
Archistrategos
Posts: 602
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9/21/2012 7:05:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/21/2012 6:23:41 PM, Df0512 wrote:
At 9/21/2012 6:06:33 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
At 9/21/2012 5:53:31 PM, Df0512 wrote:
Not without looking it up but instance faith means a really really strong belief. And I bet most people would agree to that. Maybe a bit simpler than the actual definition.

You should look it up because it's original meaning was experience of Truth that either confirmed or denied one's belief

Faith meant knowing by direct experience , thus belief no longer functions as such.

Do you believe you can get up and walk? No there is no mental yes or no because you have experienced it, mastered it and now just do it when you decide to. You have faith that you can walk.

Well that kind of defeats the purpose for the word. You're saying that people who haven't had a "supernatural experience" can't have faith in god?

Does it not say that "faith" is given by God?

All who earnestly seek (believe) will find (faith) and they will be astonished and rule overall things (fruition, resolution of subject /object relationship into fluency of Being)
Df0512
Posts: 966
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9/21/2012 7:38:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/21/2012 7:05:50 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
At 9/21/2012 6:23:41 PM, Df0512 wrote:
At 9/21/2012 6:06:33 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
At 9/21/2012 5:53:31 PM, Df0512 wrote:
Not without looking it up but instance faith means a really really strong belief. And I bet most people would agree to that. Maybe a bit simpler than the actual definition.

You should look it up because it's original meaning was experience of Truth that either confirmed or denied one's belief

Faith meant knowing by direct experience , thus belief no longer functions as such.

Do you believe you can get up and walk? No there is no mental yes or no because you have experienced it, mastered it and now just do it when you decide to. You have faith that you can walk.

Well that kind of defeats the purpose for the word. You're saying that people who haven't had a "supernatural experience" can't have faith in god?

Does it not say that "faith" is given by God?

All who earnestly seek (believe) will find (faith) and they will be astonished and rule overall things (fruition, resolution of subject /object relationship into fluency of Being)

I think maybe you are taking that scripture to literally. The scripture is referring to the seeking to know God and finding faith that he is god. The bible doesn't refer to faith as belief in a fact because it continually refers to the strengthening of faith. A fact would require faith because a fact would be a fact whether or not people believed it.

One of the bibles most famous scriptures, 2 Corinthians 5: 7, reads "For we walk by faith, not by sight."

This scripture does not suggest faith as a product proof. It seems to be saying that even when you "think" something is have "faith" that it is. This is the mechanism of faith. Believing in something no matter what evidence or logic comes against it. There are many scriptures in the bible that suggest the inevitable struggle with faith.
Archistrategos
Posts: 602
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9/21/2012 7:59:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/21/2012 7:38:26 PM, Df0512 wrote:
At 9/21/2012 7:05:50 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
At 9/21/2012 6:23:41 PM, Df0512 wrote:
At 9/21/2012 6:06:33 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
At 9/21/2012 5:53:31 PM, Df0512 wrote:
Not without looking it up but instance faith means a really really strong belief. And I bet most people would agree to that. Maybe a bit simpler than the actual definition.

You should look it up because it's original meaning was experience of Truth that either confirmed or denied one's belief

Faith meant knowing by direct experience , thus belief no longer functions as such.

Do you believe you can get up and walk? No there is no mental yes or no because you have experienced it, mastered it and now just do it when you decide to. You have faith that you can walk.

Well that kind of defeats the purpose for the word. You're saying that people who haven't had a "supernatural experience" can't have faith in god?

Does it not say that "faith" is given by God?

All who earnestly seek (believe) will find (faith) and they will be astonished and rule overall things (fruition, resolution of subject /object relationship into fluency of Being)

I think maybe you are taking that scripture to literally. The scripture is referring to the seeking to know God and finding faith that he is god. The bible doesn't refer to faith as belief in a fact because it continually refers to the strengthening of faith. A fact would require faith because a fact would be a fact whether or not people believed it.

One of the bibles most famous scriptures, 2 Corinthians 5: 7, reads "For we walk by faith, not by sight."

This scripture does not suggest faith as a product proof. It seems to be saying that even when you "think" something is have "faith" that it is. This is the mechanism of faith. Believing in something no matter what evidence or logic comes against it. There are many scriptures in the bible that suggest the inevitable struggle with faith.

Orly?

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Df0512
Posts: 966
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9/21/2012 8:15:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/21/2012 7:59:36 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
At 9/21/2012 7:38:26 PM, Df0512 wrote:
At 9/21/2012 7:05:50 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
At 9/21/2012 6:23:41 PM, Df0512 wrote:
At 9/21/2012 6:06:33 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
At 9/21/2012 5:53:31 PM, Df0512 wrote:
Not without looking it up but instance faith means a really really strong belief. And I bet most people would agree to that. Maybe a bit simpler than the actual definition.

You should look it up because it's original meaning was experience of Truth that either confirmed or denied one's belief

Faith meant knowing by direct experience , thus belief no longer functions as such.

Do you believe you can get up and walk? No there is no mental yes or no because you have experienced it, mastered it and now just do it when you decide to. You have faith that you can walk.

Well that kind of defeats the purpose for the word. You're saying that people who haven't had a "supernatural experience" can't have faith in god?

Does it not say that "faith" is given by God?

All who earnestly seek (believe) will find (faith) and they will be astonished and rule overall things (fruition, resolution of subject /object relationship into fluency of Being)

I think maybe you are taking that scripture to literally. The scripture is referring to the seeking to know God and finding faith that he is god. The bible doesn't refer to faith as belief in a fact because it continually refers to the strengthening of faith. A fact would require faith because a fact would be a fact whether or not people believed it.

One of the bibles most famous scriptures, 2 Corinthians 5: 7, reads "For we walk by faith, not by sight."

This scripture does not suggest faith as a product proof. It seems to be saying that even when you "think" something is have "faith" that it is. This is the mechanism of faith. Believing in something no matter what evidence or logic comes against it. There are many scriptures in the bible that suggest the inevitable struggle with faith.

Orly?

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

The "evidence" referred to is faith, the substance of things HOPED for. Not the substance of things already known. Basically it's saying unshakable faith is all the evidence you need.

"the evidence of things not seen" means evidence of things you wouldn't be able to prove.
Archistrategos
Posts: 602
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9/21/2012 8:20:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/21/2012 8:15:14 PM, Df0512 wrote:
Orly?

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

The "evidence" referred to is faith, the substance of things HOPED for. Not the substance of things already known. Basically it's saying unshakable faith is all the evidence you need.

"the evidence of things not seen" means evidence of things you wouldn't be able to prove.

Hoped = belief

Faith = experience and confirmation of belief....so that it can live.

Evidence of Spiritual reality aka the reality of God's existence.....by experiencing it! What do you think happens when the Holy Spirit pours into a person?
Do they believe anymore? They not only know, they know all things!
Df0512
Posts: 966
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9/21/2012 8:40:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/21/2012 8:20:33 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
At 9/21/2012 8:15:14 PM, Df0512 wrote:
Orly?

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

The "evidence" referred to is faith, the substance of things HOPED for. Not the substance of things already known. Basically it's saying unshakable faith is all the evidence you need.

"the evidence of things not seen" means evidence of things you wouldn't be able to prove.

Hoped = belief

Faith = experience and confirmation of belief....so that it can live.

Evidence of Spiritual reality aka the reality of God's existence.....by experiencing it! What do you think happens when the Holy Spirit pours into a person?
Do they believe anymore? They not only know, they know all things!

Experience and confirmation would be proof. How could faith be fact if it is the substance of things hoped for.

Matthew 17:20
He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you. "

Here is another example of levels of faith. I have no doubt in my mind that the sky is blue. I know because I can walk outside and see it. I do not need faith as small as a mustard seed because it is already a proven fact.

And I dont know what the holy spirit pouring into people means. I have seen it all my life but the concept of it makes no sense. SO I don't think anything happens. I especially don't believe you will know all things.
Archistrategos
Posts: 602
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9/21/2012 8:47:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/21/2012 8:40:59 PM, Df0512 wrote:

Experience and confirmation would be proof. How could faith be fact if it is the substance of things hoped for.

Because it is substance of reality...not conjecture. As in there is no longer any room for doubt.

Matthew 17:20
He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you. "

The mountain is doubt.

Here is another example of levels of faith. I have no doubt in my mind that the sky is blue. I know because I can walk outside and see it. I do not need faith as small as a mustard seed because it is already a proven fact.

And I dont know what the holy spirit pouring into people means. I have seen it all my life but the concept of it makes no sense. SO I don't think anything happens. I especially don't believe you will know all things.

1 John 2:20 You have an anointing from the Holy One and know all things.
Archistrategos
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9/21/2012 8:55:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/21/2012 8:49:59 PM, yoda878 wrote:
Religion - Faith = Atheist

Belief - knowing = ignorance.
Df0512
Posts: 966
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9/21/2012 8:59:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/21/2012 8:47:08 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
At 9/21/2012 8:40:59 PM, Df0512 wrote:

Experience and confirmation would be proof. How could faith be fact if it is the substance of things hoped for.

Because it is substance of reality...not conjecture. As in there is no longer any room for doubt.

Matthew 17:20
He replied, "Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you. "

The mountain is doubt.

Here is another example of levels of faith. I have no doubt in my mind that the sky is blue. I know because I can walk outside and see it. I do not need faith as small as a mustard seed because it is already a proven fact.

And I dont know what the holy spirit pouring into people means. I have seen it all my life but the concept of it makes no sense. SO I don't think anything happens. I especially don't believe you will know all things.

1 John 2:20 You have an anointing from the Holy One and know all things.

There is know person on earth that knows all things. Nor has there ever been, excluding Jesus if you believe in him. How could the mountain even exist if you have faith. If you already have proof of something why would I ever doubt it.

Also I am no atheist. I do believe in a god in some way shape or form. I think at the very origins of all things you will find god, but only there. Religion, to me, is man made. I believe god or who ever created things and then let them to grow.
Archistrategos
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9/21/2012 9:05:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/21/2012 8:59:40 PM, Df0512 wrote:
There is know person on earth that knows all things. Nor has there ever been, excluding Jesus if you believe in him. How could the mountain even exist if you have faith. If you already have proof of something why would I ever doubt it.

The mountain exists because of ignorance, belief is the climbing of it, faith is the moving of it out of your way.

Also I am no atheist. I do believe in a god in some way shape or form. I think at the very origins of all things you will find god, but only there. Religion, to me, is man made. I believe god or who ever created things and then let them to grow.

1 Cor: 3:6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth.

What would you say if I said I have found the origins of all things with God and can walk you through them step by step right to where you are now and what you are looking at in the near future?
Df0512
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9/21/2012 9:17:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/21/2012 9:05:46 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
At 9/21/2012 8:59:40 PM, Df0512 wrote:
There is know person on earth that knows all things. Nor has there ever been, excluding Jesus if you believe in him. How could the mountain even exist if you have faith. If you already have proof of something why would I ever doubt it.

The mountain exists because of ignorance, belief is the climbing of it, faith is the moving of it out of your way.

Also I am no atheist. I do believe in a god in some way shape or form. I think at the very origins of all things you will find god, but only there. Religion, to me, is man made. I believe god or who ever created things and then let them to grow.

1 Cor: 3:6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth.

What would you say if I said I have found the origins of all things with God and can walk you through them step by step right to where you are now and what you are looking at in the near future?

How can a person have faith that they can move a mountain if they have never seen a mountain be moved. The bible often talks about having faith in things you prey for so that they will happen. I talks specifically about increasing your faith. Once again I dont need to increase my faith that the sky is blue, I is because I have already seen it. Why would you need to increase faith if it is already fact.

You make very good points but other problems with religion is perception. We can only speculate as to what the real meaning behind that scripture is because we can't talk to the person who wrote it. And to you proposal I would say go for it but I don't understand you question. Are you asking what am i hoping to get out of this debate?
Archistrategos
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9/21/2012 9:21:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/21/2012 9:17:16 PM, Df0512 wrote:
You make very good points but other problems with religion is perception. We can only speculate as to what the real meaning behind that scripture is because we can't talk to the person who wrote it.
First some roots....http://concordances.org...
Faith (4102/pistis) is always a gift from God, and never something that can be produced by people. In short, 4102/pistis ("faith") for the believer is "God's divine persuasion" " and therefore distinct from human belief (confidence), yet involving it. The Lord continuously births faith in the yielded believer so they can know what He prefers, i.e. the persuasion of His will (1 Jn 5:4).

And to you proposal I would say go for it but I don't understand you question. Are you asking what am i hoping to get out of this debate?

No, just wondering if you you like to take a walk withe through imagination like we did as kids =)
Df0512
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9/21/2012 9:35:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/21/2012 9:21:43 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
At 9/21/2012 9:17:16 PM, Df0512 wrote:
You make very good points but other problems with religion is perception. We can only speculate as to what the real meaning behind that scripture is because we can't talk to the person who wrote it.
First some roots....http://concordances.org...
Faith (4102/pistis) is always a gift from God, and never something that can be produced by people. In short, 4102/pistis ("faith") for the believer is "God's divine persuasion" " and therefore distinct from human belief (confidence), yet involving it. The Lord continuously births faith in the yielded believer so they can know what He prefers, i.e. the persuasion of His will (1 Jn 5:4).

And to you proposal I would say go for it but I don't understand you question. Are you asking what am i hoping to get out of this debate?

No, just wondering if you you like to take a walk withe through imagination like we did as kids =)

If faith can only come after proof is given I would say that at least everyone on earth has faith. Even in the link you provided, the short definition describes faith as belief and trust. This sounds like one big contradiction. Either something is or it isn't and faith seems like the devise created to keep you believing no matter the situation.

Lets take a walk lol.
stubs
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9/21/2012 10:20:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/21/2012 9:20:15 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
At 9/21/2012 8:49:59 PM, yoda878 wrote:
Religion - Faith = Atheist

Not at all...
Archistrategos
Posts: 602
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9/22/2012 12:03:40 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/21/2012 9:35:11 PM, Df0512 wrote:
If faith can only come after proof is given I would say that at least everyone on earth has faith. Even in the link you provided, the short definition describes faith as belief and trust. This sounds like one big contradiction. Either something is or it isn't and faith seems like the devise created to keep you believing no matter the situation.

Lets take a walk lol.

;D

Okay, so...proof is a response yes?

Response from the environment that what you though was true actually works...and depending of the history of your thinking is the trajectory of what you can propose...

So what you can believe...what you know works...and what you can then do with that knowledge are all three growing at the same time yes?
Df0512
Posts: 966
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9/22/2012 9:40:47 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/22/2012 12:03:40 AM, Archistrategos wrote:
At 9/21/2012 9:35:11 PM, Df0512 wrote:
If faith can only come after proof is given I would say that at least everyone on earth has faith. Even in the link you provided, the short definition describes faith as belief and trust. This sounds like one big contradiction. Either something is or it isn't and faith seems like the devise created to keep you believing no matter the situation.

Lets take a walk lol.

;D

Okay, so...proof is a response yes?

Response from the environment that what you though was true actually works...and depending of the history of your thinking is the trajectory of what you can propose...

So what you can believe...what you know works...and what you can then do with that knowledge are all three growing at the same time yes?

No, proof is not just a response. Sometimes it is just a discovery. Questing for truth you may discover proof without a response from anything. The sky is blue all on its own. We just have to look at it. But im following you go on...