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The kingdom of God is now upon the earth!

ScottyDouglas
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9/22/2012 11:25:55 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Forward: AnnaNicole
The proposition is: "The Bible teaches that the kingdom of God as prophesied has been established and exists on earth now."

That the kingdom of God was prophesied, I take it, my opponent will not deny, and I cite Dan 2: 44:

"And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."

One may note (1) a certain time-element to this prophesy "in the days of those kings" as well as (2) the event "shall " set up a kingdom." So the question becomes, "Who are "those kings"?"

In Daniel 2, I presume that no one will deny the following order in fulfillment, although the dates are approximate:

1. The Head of Gold: the Babylonian Empire (606BC - 536BC)
2. The Breastplate of Silver: the MedoPersian Empire (536BC - 331BC)
3. Belly and thighs of Bronze: The Grecian Empire (331BC - 30BC)
4. Legs of Iron: The Roman Empire (30BC - 400AD)

I see it, except to endlessly quibble over Dan 2: 40-44 " with special attention paid to "and whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay", but for now I simply introduce the passage and await his response. The simple fact will remain, however, that "those kings" does refer to the kings or emperors of the 4th worldwide kingdom, the Roman empire.

** We now move to the words of John the Baptist:

Matt 3: 1, 2: "In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near"." (KJV: "at hand")

** Jesus then stated the same thing more emphatically:

Matthew 4:17 "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Mark 1: 14, 15 "Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Question: WHAT time was fulfilled? I"ll submit that Jesus hearkened right back to Daniel"s prophecy in Dan 2 (and other prophesies) and emphatically stated, "The " TIME " is "fulfilled."

Do we speculate, for some reason, that the kingdom which was "near" and "at hand" in about 30AD hasn"t shown up yet " in 2012. Why is that? Do "near", "nigh", and "at hand" mean 1832 years?

** Then again, Jesus said in Mark 9: 1, "And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power."

Those people to whom Jesus was speaking were to see " to visualize " the arrival of the promised kingdom before they "tasted death." Alright, if Jesus told the truth, where are these folks? I don"t know, but when we locate them, they"ll make Methuselah look like a baby in diapers. Truth is: the kingdom came during their lifetime, and they are all dead now. Another thing: the kingdom was to come when the power came.

** Note Luke 24: 49, "And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry you in the city of Jerusalem, until you are endued with power from on high."

So the disciples would be in Jerusalem when the power came, and when the power came, the kingdom would come.

** And again: Acts 1: 8, "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

Thus, the coming of power was synonymous with the coming of the Spirit, and it would all happen in Jerusalem.

** Now observe Acts 2:

1. Where? Jerusalem ("Now there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.)
2. When? During the days of the Roman Empire
3. Who? The disciples and apostles who whom Jesus said, ""shall not taste death"
4. What happened? "And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." There"s the Spirit, and there"s the power.
5. What did Peter say about it? THIS " what you are seeing " THIS " what you are hearing " is THAT which Joel prophesied.

"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: and also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call."

Peter said, "This is that."

Thus, we have this situation concerning the appearance of the kingdom:

1. To come in the days of the Roman Emperors
2. The time was fulfilled " it was near
3. Heralded as "near" and "at hand" by John
4. Heralded as "near" and "at hand" by Jesus
5. Awaited by Joseph of Arimethea (Mark 15: 43)
6. Would appear before some standing with the Lord would die
7. Would come with power, power would come with the Spirit
8. Would all occur in Jerusalem

Alright, the Spirit came on Pentecost. The power came on Pentecost. They were in Jerusalem.

** Not only that, but prior to Acts 2, the kingdom is always referenced as future. But what about after Acts 2?

1. "Who has delivered us from the power of darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son" (Col 1: 13) Paul is among that "us". So Paul was in the kingdom. The Colossians were among that "us". So the Colossians were in the kingdom.

2. "I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus" (Rev 1: 9). So John was in it. Not only that, but the readers of Revelation in the first century were in it. Yet it hadn"t come?

Note now again Col 1: 13:

1. "Who" Who is "who"? God the Father
2. "Hath translated" (First aorist active indicative).
3. "Us" Paul and the Colossians
4. "Into the kingdom" , i. e. the kingdom of Jesus Christ.

Well, how, do tell, were these people translated into a kingdom that didn"t exist " and still doesn"t, according to speculations?

This entire discussion - including point-blank denials that the kingdom exists now - are unto one end: to enable a belief in a future earthly kingdom, which in turn enables endless silly speculations and theories surrounding supposed "end times". That's all it boils down to. And the theories number in the hundreds. Every last one of them is based upon a flat-out and false denial that the kingdom of Christ never came. My position is that such a belief, if held, is a tendency towards infidelity because it reflects poorly on prophetic veracity as a whole.
TheAsylum
ScottyDouglas
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9/22/2012 11:29:20 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I moved this agruement from a debate me and Anna had were I did not have time to properly debate it. It was limited to 24 hours. So, I now offer time to fully discuss it. Not just I or Anna but the entire community! Thanks.
TheAsylum
ScottyDouglas
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9/22/2012 11:50:01 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Reply:

Let's notice that each metal is inferior in value to the other, but each metal is stronger than the preceding one. After the Babylonian kingdom there was to arise another kingdom inferior to it, as silver is inferior to gold but stronger, we know that it was the Medes and Persians that took over the Babylonian kingdom. The third kingdom, the belly and thighs of brass, this kingdom was the Grecian empire. Here we find a fourth kingdom. It was to be as strong as iron, for iron breaks and subdues all things and would break all the other metals before it. This is what Rome did.

The Roman Empire was to be divided, but with some having the strength of iron and others being weak like clay. The Western Roman Empire divided into ten separate parts. Heruli, Ostrogoths, Vandals, Franks, Visigoths, Burgundians, Lombards, Anglo/Saxsons, Alamanni and Seuvi.

Clay and Iron " The iron and clay are much more than just the divided kingdoms. But what does the Bible represent clay as?

In Jeremiah 18:6 and Isaiah 64:8 we find that God"s people, which are His church, are likened unto clay.

In the days of these divided nations, in the days of the kings of the earth uniting with the church, the God of heaven is going to set up His kingdom which will never be destroyed but will stand forever. This kingdom, that God is going to set up, is the everlasting kingdom that the saints will posses.

Jesus made it plain that the Kingdom of God was not here yet.

He said that, after these events, people "will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory... When you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near" (verses 27, 31).

Christ clearly said that the Kingdom of God will not be set up on earth until after His triumphant return in power and glory. Christ also made this plain other times. The familiar words of the Lord's Prayer were given by Jesus Christ in response to the disciples' request that He teach them how to pray.

"In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come" (Matthew 6:9-10
This well-known prayer acknowledges that God's Kingdom is not here now.

Hebrews 11:13-16 tell us: "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them."

"waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God"Hebrews 11:10.

God's people today experience a foretaste of God's coming Kingdom in their lives, many scriptures make it clear that the Kingdom of God is not here now, but will be established on earth in the future.

Mark 9:1 Apostle John was there when Jesus made the statement in Mark 9:1. If you've read Revelation you will understand that John saw the Second Coming of Christ as it would happen in a vision from heaven. John described how the Second Coming would be and what it would be like.

The devil rules this world. We read:

2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,
Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
John 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
1 Thessalonians 2:17 But we, brethren, being taken from you for a short time in presence, not in heart, endeavoured the more abundantly to see your face with great desire.18 Wherefore we would have come to you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.
Revelation 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

God and his chosen are not of this world. God's kingdom is not of this world. We read:

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Hebrews 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
John 8:23 And he said to them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Hebrews 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
Luke 22:29 And I appoint to you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed to me; 30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world, for a testimony to all nations; and then shall the end come.

God's kingdom has not come down to this World yet. When it does Jesus Christ will come with with all power and glory!
TheAsylum
Dogknox
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9/22/2012 12:19:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
ScottyDouglas get is straight these Legs of Iron can only be "The Holy Catholic Church!!
4. Legs of Iron: The Roman Empire

Legs of Iron are: The Holy Catholic CHURCH!
44 "In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.

Jesus sets up his Holy Catholic Church....
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

ScottyDouglas Satan will NOT PREVAIL against Jesus' holy Catholic Church!
Never be destroyed, but it will itself endure forever.

Jesus' words.. "I am ALWAYS with you, FOREVER!!!"

The only Church Jesus formed will never be overpowered The Holy Catholic Church is the forth Kingdom!!
The God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.

ScottyDouglas All protestant churches are made by men.. they fail, they are not the kingdom Jesus set up Two Thousand years ago never ever to Fail!

Dogknox
ScottyDouglas
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9/22/2012 12:29:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/22/2012 12:19:26 PM, Dogknox wrote:
ScottyDouglas get is straight these Legs of Iron can only be "The Holy Catholic Church!!
4. Legs of Iron: The Roman Empire

Legs of Iron are: The Holy Catholic CHURCH!
44 "In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.

Jesus sets up his Holy Catholic Church....
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

ScottyDouglas Satan will NOT PREVAIL against Jesus' holy Catholic Church!
Never be destroyed, but it will itself endure forever.

Jesus' words.. "I am ALWAYS with you, FOREVER!!!"

The only Church Jesus formed will never be overpowered The Holy Catholic Church is the forth Kingdom!!
The God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.

ScottyDouglas All protestant churches are made by men.. they fail, they are not the kingdom Jesus set up Two Thousand years ago never ever to Fail!

Dogknox

DogKnox, you are not saying your Holy Catholic church are the iron legs are you?
TheAsylum
Dogknox
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9/22/2012 1:00:30 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/22/2012 12:29:53 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 9/22/2012 12:19:26 PM, Dogknox wrote:
ScottyDouglas get is straight these Legs of Iron can only be "The Holy Catholic Church!!
4. Legs of Iron: The Roman Empire

Legs of Iron are: The Holy Catholic CHURCH!
44 "In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.

Jesus sets up his Holy Catholic Church....
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

ScottyDouglas Satan will NOT PREVAIL against Jesus' holy Catholic Church!
Never be destroyed, but it will itself endure forever.

Jesus' words.. "I am ALWAYS with you, FOREVER!!!"

The only Church Jesus formed will never be overpowered The Holy Catholic Church is the forth Kingdom!!
The God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.

ScottyDouglas All protestant churches are made by men.. they fail, they are not the kingdom Jesus set up Two Thousand years ago never ever to Fail!

Dogknox

DogKnox, you are not saying your Holy Catholic church are the iron legs are you?

The PROPHESY is saying it!!
Never to be destroyed!!

NOR Left to another people!!!
Jesus started with the Holy Catholic Church, he will never, ever leave His Body for others!

It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.

All protestant bodies are man made, not even one was formed by God! They will continue to divide and fragment out of existence!
Only the Holy Catholic Church is God' holy body!

Acts 5:38
Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail.
39 But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God."


Jesus is ALWAYS with his Holy Catholic Church>> NONE OTHER!!!
ScottyDouglas Protesting against Jesus' holy Catholic BRIDE is rejecting Jesus!

Dogknox
ScottyDouglas
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9/22/2012 1:20:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/22/2012 1:00:30 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 9/22/2012 12:29:53 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:

DogKnox, you are not saying your Holy Catholic church are the iron legs are you?

The PROPHESY is saying it!!
Never to be destroyed!!:

Thanks, Dogknox, You have shown the whole community what you serve and who you serve! Read the Bible namely Daniel!
The Iron legs are in the statue! The iron legs are a beast then bruises the world. It mingles with clay. This forms the statue of the four beast. God destroys this statue along with the Iron legs and feet with iron & clay. God destroys(by your claim), The Holy Roman Catholic Church. Thanks.
TheAsylum
annanicole
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9/22/2012 1:53:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/22/2012 11:50:01 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
Reply:

Let's notice that each metal is inferior in value to the other, but each metal is stronger than the preceding one. After the Babylonian kingdom there was to arise another kingdom inferior to it, as silver is inferior to gold but stronger, we know that it was the Medes and Persians that took over the Babylonian kingdom. The third kingdom, the belly and thighs of brass, this kingdom was the Grecian empire. Here we find a fourth kingdom. It was to be as strong as iron, for iron breaks and subdues all things and would break all the other metals before it. This is what Rome did.

The Roman Empire was to be divided, but with some having the strength of iron and others being weak like clay. The Western Roman Empire divided into ten separate parts. Heruli, Ostrogoths, Vandals, Franks, Visigoths, Burgundians, Lombards, Anglo/Saxsons, Alamanni and Seuvi.

Clay and Iron " The iron and clay are much more than just the divided kingdoms. But what does the Bible represent clay as?

In Jeremiah 18:6 and Isaiah 64:8 we find that God"s people, which are His church, are likened unto clay.

Well, I had said in the 1st affirmative, "My opponent will have no choice, as I see it, except to endlessly quibble over Dan 2: 40-44 - with special attention paid to 'and whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men ...' " Called that one right, didn't I?

He'll elasticize those feet and toes out over two millennia.


In the days of these divided nations, in the days of the kings of the earth uniting with the church, the God of heaven is going to set up His kingdom which will never be destroyed but will stand forever.

Remarkably, the passage does not even hint at any sort of church-state union, does it? You made it all up based upon the word "clay", right?

This kingdom, that God is going to set up, is the everlasting kingdom that the saints will posses.

God already set it up

Jesus made it plain that the Kingdom of God was not here yet.

Of course He did. The kingdom was not here until after the ascension.

He said that, after these events, people "will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory... When you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near" (verses 27, 31).

That's absolutely true. Didn't Jesus conclude by saying, "even so ye also, when ye see all these things, know ye that he is nigh, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished."

See that, Scotty? "This generation shall not pass away, til ALL these things be ACCOMPLISHED." Why didn't you bother to go ahead and quote that as well?

Christ clearly said that the Kingdom of God will not be set up on earth until after His triumphant return in power and glory. Christ also made this plain other times. The familiar words of the Lord's Prayer were given by Jesus Christ in response to the disciples' request that He teach them how to pray.

"In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come" (Matthew 6:9-10
This well-known prayer acknowledges that God's Kingdom is not here now.

Who said the kingdom was here when the Lord prayed that prayer? Not me. It wasn't. Repeat: the kingdom was not established until after the ascension, so you wasted your time on the Lord's Prayer.

Hebrews 11:13-16 tell us: "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them."

~~~ speaking of the Old Testament characters, Scotty

"waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God"Hebrews 11:10.

Correct. You think that means an earthly kingdom headquartered over in Palestine?

God's people today experience a foretaste of God's coming Kingdom in their lives, many scriptures make it clear that the Kingdom of God is not here now, but will be established on earth in the future.

Scotty: "scriptures make it clear that the kingdom of God is not here now"
Paul: "who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love"

Ummm ok


Mark 9:1 Apostle John was there when Jesus made the statement in Mark 9:1. If you've read Revelation you will understand that John saw the Second Coming of Christ as it would happen in a vision from heaven. John described how the Second Coming would be and what it would be like.

Hahahaha! You mean to tell us that the fulfillment of Mark 9: 1 lies in John's apolcalyptic vision? That's the best you can do on it? I can debunk that for you:

"And he said unto them (plural), Verily I say unto you (plural) , That there be some of them (plural) that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they (plural) have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

It just seems to me that the Apostle John is very singular. He's the only one that saw the visions of Revelation. So of course, Mark 9: 1 has no reference to Revelation - and never did.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
DeFool
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9/22/2012 1:57:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Jesus, "kill your children and cut off your balls" Christ did not return. He never came back to murder the little children with his often-promised mouth-sword and teeth-gnashing.

We are relieved.
annanicole
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9/22/2012 1:57:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Dang, I really wanted you to dig in good on Col 1:13

"Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son"

and

Rev 1: 9: "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ"

It just seems to me that Paul, John, the Colossians, and the readers of Revelation were all in this suspicious kingdom that you claim was - and is - nonexistent.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
annanicole
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9/22/2012 2:03:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Scotty, why don't you hit "reply" and "quote" over there like I do? Then you can respond to each passage and each point instead of skipping 90% of them, then spending the rest of your time just asserting that the kingdom that was "at hand", "near", and to "shortly come to pass" ain't made it here for 2,000 years.

Wouldn't that be much more honorable of you? That's exactly why I wanted you in a private, formal debate. I wouldn't let you skip over point after point like you do in these forums.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
ScottyDouglas
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9/22/2012 2:24:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/22/2012 2:03:12 PM, annanicole wrote:
Scotty, why don't you hit "reply" and "quote" over there like I do? Then you can respond to each passage and each point instead of skipping 90% of them, then spending the rest of your time just asserting that the kingdom that was "at hand", "near", and to "shortly come to pass" ain't made it here for 2,000 years.

Wouldn't that be much more honorable of you? That's exactly why I wanted you in a private, formal debate. I wouldn't let you skip over point after point like you do in these forums.

First off, AnnaNicole, that was as far as I got in my argument and rebuttal in that debate. I have loads left to remark on. I did cover most of your argument.
Second, are you not being hypocritcal? You skip'd over most of my Biblical passages clearly showing that the devil rules this word and God's kingdom is not upon this earth. The Bible and its passages rules here, not opinion.
TheAsylum
annanicole
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9/22/2012 2:34:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/22/2012 2:24:25 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 9/22/2012 2:03:12 PM, annanicole wrote:
Scotty, why don't you hit "reply" and "quote" over there like I do? Then you can respond to each passage and each point instead of skipping 90% of them, then spending the rest of your time just asserting that the kingdom that was "at hand", "near", and to "shortly come to pass" ain't made it here for 2,000 years.

Wouldn't that be much more honorable of you? That's exactly why I wanted you in a private, formal debate. I wouldn't let you skip over point after point like you do in these forums.

First off, AnnaNicole, that was as far as I got in my argument and rebuttal in that debate. I have loads left to remark on. I did cover most of your argument.
Second, are you not being hypocritcal? You skip'd over most of my Biblical passages clearly showing that the devil rules this word and God's kingdom is not upon this earth. The Bible and its passages rules here, not opinion.

Well, #1 is that you never supplied any passage that says God's kingdom is not upon this earth. And you won't. The best you'll to is to make a play on "My kingdom is not of this world." All that means is that the kingdom of Jesus Christ does not have an earthly quarters, it does not partake in carnal warfare in defense of its king, nor does it conquer by physical force. So it's not "of the world" - partaking in the nature and adhering to the form of earthly kingdoms.

And #2 is that I barely give notice to that old infidel argument: "There's evil that pervades the world, so Jesus Christ can't be ruling." That's just an argument of an infidel, and you kinda spin it to support your speculations.

The job of the negative (which is you) is

(1) First and foremost, to notice and rebut every point made by the affirmative, and
(2) Then and only then, to advance additional arguments in support of the negation

Take my suggestion and copy/paste the post and reply specifically to the arguments advanced. You started on Dan 2, touched upon Mark 9, then went off into left field.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Archistrategos
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9/22/2012 2:44:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/22/2012 1:57:22 PM, annanicole wrote:
Dang, I really wanted you to dig in good on Col 1:13

"Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son"

and

Rev 1: 9: "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ"

It just seems to me that Paul, John, the Colossians, and the readers of Revelation were all in this suspicious kingdom that you claim was - and is - nonexistent.

"The Kingdom of Heaven is within you and all around you, spread throughout the earth though men see it not. Lift a stone and you will find me, split a piece of wood and I am there."

The question is...do you recognize and participate in Thy Kingdom?
annanicole
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9/22/2012 2:50:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/22/2012 2:44:22 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
At 9/22/2012 1:57:22 PM, annanicole wrote:
Dang, I really wanted you to dig in good on Col 1:13

"Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son"

and

Rev 1: 9: "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ"

It just seems to me that Paul, John, the Colossians, and the readers of Revelation were all in this suspicious kingdom that you claim was - and is - nonexistent.

"The Kingdom of Heaven is within you and all around you, spread throughout the earth though men see it not. Lift a stone and you will find me, split a piece of wood and I am there."

The question is...do you recognize and participate in Thy Kingdom?

No, that's "a" question, but it's not "the" question at the moment.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
ScottyDouglas
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9/22/2012 3:00:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
@Anna,
Skip over all the scriptures I provided showing that Jesus Christ's kingdom is not on or of this earth, Nice! Here they are again in short!

We read:

2 Corinthians 4:4 "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,"

=Seems the devil is the God of this world.

God and his chosen are not of this world. God's kingdom is not of this world. We read:

John 18:36 "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."

Seems we would not fight and quibble if God's kingdom was on this earth!

Hebrews 9:24 "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:"
John 8:23 And he said to them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world."

We see here that heaven itself will be Jesus's kingdom, not on earth or in it.

Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."

Here we see the kingdom you proclaim. This kingdom is not on this earth! Because it will be a new heaven and new earth when it does!

Hebrews 11:16 "But now they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."
Matthew 24:13 "But he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world, for a testimony to all nations; and then shall the end come."

Seem's the gospel is of the kingdom and so is his people but not in it, Has the end came?

Well, I had said in the 1st affirmative, "My opponent will have no choice, as I see it, except to endlessly quibble over Dan 2: 40-44:

Yes, you affirmed over Biblical passages that you would rather just ignore and skip. Well, we are not.

"- with special attention paid to 'and whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men ...' " Called that one right, didn't I?"

You sure did know I was going to use all the scriptures and maybe you should too!

"He'll elasticize those feet and toes out over two millennia."
Seems, Jesus Christ did also! We read!
KJV-R (Webster) 2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved to fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,"

We see that Jesus Christ tells to be wise and know that 1 day and 'shortly, near' is 1,000 years to his coming kingdom and the spiritual bodies.

Remarkably, the passage does not even hint at any sort of church-state union, does it? You made it all up based upon the word "clay", right?:

Remarkably you are trying to say that the state is not deciding what the church and people of God can and can not do today in this world. Aren't you? Also would God allow this in his kingdom? Are we to believe God gave us His kingdom and left?

God already set it up:

Gotta show He has and time and the description of the word is not favoring you. I guess in God's kingdom people die, people are sick, babies are aborted and sin runs rampant.

"Of course He did. The kingdom was not here until after the ascension.
He said that, after these events, people "will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory... When you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near" (verses 27, 31).:
That's absolutely true. Didn't Jesus conclude by saying, "even so ye also, when ye see all these things, know ye that he is nigh, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished.":

We see here that Anna says, 'that the kingdom comes after the ascention'. Then she adds us a passage that is very telling indeed. We Jesus already ascended and comes back but the kingdom is not here yet, it is still near!
The second part means that the generation of the Lord's coming shall not pass away until all the things prophesied be accomplished.

See that, Scotty? "This generation shall not pass away, til ALL these things be ACCOMPLISHED." Why didn't you bother to go ahead and quote that as well?:

I seen it, did you? Did you understand it. Are you saying that every last bit of prophesy was accomplished by the propets deaths?

"In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come" (Matthew 6:9-10
This well-known prayer acknowledges that God's Kingdom is not here now.
Who said the kingdom was here when the Lord prayed that prayer? Not me. It wasn't. Repeat: the kingdom was not established until after the ascension, so you wasted your time on the Lord's Prayer.:

Yep, guess Jesus was giving the gospel and prayers for a people of 30 or 40 years. The it would not be needed. I guess Jesus sends His kingdom to eath and leaves and allows sin to rule it.

Hebrews 11:13-16 tell us: "These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them."

~~~ speaking of the Old Testament characters, Scotty:
Really, explain!

"waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God"Hebrews 11:10.

Correct. You think that means an earthly kingdom headquartered over in Palestine?:

I know it is not! Are you saying that that kingdom is here and God is not?

Scotty: "scriptures make it clear that the kingdom of God is not here now"
Paul: "who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love"

You must explain here, Anna, how this means that the kingdom is upon this earth. See you miss the words, He said translated US and not translted the KINGDOM here. We will go to His kingdom in heaven.

Hahahaha! You mean to tell us that the fulfillment of Mark 9: 1 lies in John's apolcalyptic vision? That's the best you can do on it? I can debunk that for you:

Hahaha! Are you tell me John was the only one there who had a vision? I know they all had different ones but nevertheless seen the vision of the kingdom! Are you?

It just seems to me that the Apostle John is very singular. He's the only one that saw the visions of Revelation. So of course, Mark 9: 1 has no reference to Revelation - and never did.:

So the
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Archistrategos
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9/22/2012 3:10:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/22/2012 2:50:18 PM, annanicole wrote:
"The Kingdom of Heaven is within you and all around you, spread throughout the earth though men see it not. Lift a stone and you will find me, split a piece of wood and I am there."

The question is...do you recognize and participate in Thy Kingdom?

No, that's "a" question, but it's not "the" question at the moment.

That is always the question my dear sister. ;)
ScottyDouglas
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9/22/2012 3:13:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/22/2012 2:34:48 PM, annanicole wrote:

(1) First and foremost, to notice and rebut every point made by the affirmative, and:

Why, I do not disagree with everything you say. I think I have been rebutting you. I know I have, you are just to stubborn to see it.
(2) Then and only then, to advance additional arguments in support of the negation:
I will do both!

I bet you would like me to stay just on the scriptures you site. No! Answers are inside the whole Bible, You must use the whole Bible, not just one or two verses!
TheAsylum
ScottyDouglas
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9/22/2012 3:16:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/22/2012 2:44:22 PM, Archistrategos wrote:

"The Kingdom of Heaven is within you and all around you, spread throughout the earth though men see it not. Lift a stone and you will find me, split a piece of wood and I am there."

The question is...do you recognize and participate in Thy Kingdom?:

What she is not grasping is we are from God's kingdom! It is in us! That kingdom is not here on earth! We are representatives of it!
TheAsylum
Paradox_7
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9/22/2012 3:25:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Uh, too lazy to read much more, but..

I believe the Roman Empire (E/W) was around for about 1400 Yrs.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Archistrategos
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9/22/2012 3:28:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/22/2012 3:16:31 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 9/22/2012 2:44:22 PM, Archistrategos wrote:

"The Kingdom of Heaven is within you and all around you, spread throughout the earth though men see it not. Lift a stone and you will find me, split a piece of wood and I am there."

The question is...do you recognize and participate in Thy Kingdom?:

What she is not grasping is we are from God's kingdom! It is in us! That kingdom is not here on earth! We are representatives of it!

Try read the Gospel of Thomas. The Kingdom of Heaven is here on the earth and it is invisible. Within us and throughout the earth
ScottyDouglas
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9/22/2012 3:34:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/22/2012 3:28:35 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
At 9/22/2012 3:16:31 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 9/22/2012 2:44:22 PM, Archistrategos wrote:

"The Kingdom of Heaven is within you and all around you, spread throughout the earth though men see it not. Lift a stone and you will find me, split a piece of wood and I am there."

The question is...do you recognize and participate in Thy Kingdom?:

What she is not grasping is we are from God's kingdom! It is in us! That kingdom is not here on earth! We are representatives of it!

Try read the Gospel of Thomas. The Kingdom of Heaven is here on the earth and it is invisible. Within us and throughout the earth

The Gospel According to Thomas, is a well preserved non-canonical sayings-gospel. It was discovered near Nag Hammadi, Egypt, in December 1945. Scholars have speculated that the works were buried in response to a letter from Bishop Athanasius who for the first time declared a strict canon of Christian scripture.
A portion of the sayings resemble those found in the Canonical Gospels, while it is speculated that the other sayings were added from Gnostic tradition.
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ScottyDouglas
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9/22/2012 3:46:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/22/2012 3:28:35 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
At 9/22/2012 3:16:31 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 9/22/2012 2:44:22 PM, Archistrategos wrote:

"The Kingdom of Heaven is within you and all around you, spread throughout the earth though men see it not. Lift a stone and you will find me, split a piece of wood and I am there."

The question is...do you recognize and participate in Thy Kingdom?:

What she is not grasping is we are from God's kingdom! It is in us! That kingdom is not here on earth! We are representatives of it!

Try read the Gospel of Thomas. The Kingdom of Heaven is here on the earth and it is invisible. Within us and throughout the earth

The new age movement wants to start including those Gnostic books. Gnostic teachings stems from Mystery school teachings. I shun on such teachings.
TheAsylum
Archistrategos
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9/22/2012 4:19:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/22/2012 3:46:37 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 9/22/2012 3:28:35 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
At 9/22/2012 3:16:31 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 9/22/2012 2:44:22 PM, Archistrategos wrote:

"The Kingdom of Heaven is within you and all around you, spread throughout the earth though men see it not. Lift a stone and you will find me, split a piece of wood and I am there."

The question is...do you recognize and participate in Thy Kingdom?:

What she is not grasping is we are from God's kingdom! It is in us! That kingdom is not here on earth! We are representatives of it!

Try read the Gospel of Thomas. The Kingdom of Heaven is here on the earth and it is invisible. Within us and throughout the earth

The new age movement wants to start including those Gnostic books. Gnostic teachings stems from Mystery school teachings. I shun on such teachings.

Gnostic was a derogatory term the church used to describe them all "know it alls"

They called themselves Telestai, ones who are aimed.

The found books predate the NT. At least one written by one of the disciples himself.
Toss out at your own risk.
annanicole
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9/22/2012 4:31:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Hahahaha! You mean to tell us that the fulfillment of Mark 9: 1 lies in John's apolcalyptic vision? That's the best you can do on it? I can debunk that for you:

Hahaha! Are you tell me John was the only one there who had a vision? I know they all had different ones but nevertheless seen the vision of the kingdom! Are you?


I'll stop right here for a second. I'm telling you that John is the only one either one of us know of who was:

(1) standing with the Lord when He spake Mark 9: 1, and
(2) had any sort of a vision of the 2nd coming

Scotty says, "I know they all had different ones but nevertheless seen the vision of the kingdom!" No, you don't know that at all. You made it up. And another thing, here's Jesus Christ: "And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, that there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power."

Scotty trots out two thousand years later and say, "Oh, hey everybody, they didn't live to REALLY see it - they just saw it in a vision. They dreamed it."

Then Scotty backs up and says, "Well, John saw it in a vision." John isn't a "they", Scotty. Next you just ASSERT, i. e. just made it up off the top of your head, that others had similar "visions" of the 2nd coming. Well, well!

Chalk one up for Scotty's imagination:

(1) He asserts that "seeing the kingdom come with power" refers to apocalyptic "visions" and "dreams". They didn't see it literally come. They dreamed it. No proof for his assertion - just blurts it out
(2) He cites, based upon #1, John in Revelation as the one who had these visions, then
(3) When it's pointed out that Christ stated that a plural number would see the 2nd coming, Scotty maintains that He spake of apocalyptic-style visions, then (once again) simply ASSERTS that other saw the same stuff.

C'mon, Scotty! That's one assertion without proof after another.

One more thing. YOU are the one who thinks all this stuff is literal, especially in Revelation, but look at you when you squirm: "Those LITERALLY standing with Christ did not LITERALLY see the LITERAL kingdom LITERALLY come within their lifetimes." That's your position. You run to visions and dreams, then simply fabricate the idea that multiple people had visions and dream similar in substance to the vision of John. Who can believe you?

Explain it a little further because you'll imagine any old limb to crawl out on, and if it's rotten, you bear the brunt of the fall.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
annanicole
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9/22/2012 4:36:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
"In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come" (Matthew 6:9-10)

Scotty: This well-known prayer acknowledges that God's Kingdom is not here now.

Anna: Who said the kingdom was here when the Lord prayed that prayer? Not me. It wasn't. Repeat: the kingdom was not established until after the ascension, so you wasted your time on the Lord's Prayer.:

Scotty: Yep, guess Jesus was giving the gospel and prayers for a people of 30 or 40 years.

Anna: I'll repeat, "NO ONE said the kingdom of God was established when Jesus prayed that prayer." No one. The kingdom came after the ascension.

Scotty: The it would not be needed. I guess Jesus sends His kingdom to eath and leaves and allows sin to rule it.

Anna: And I guess you paid not one lick of attention to this fact: The Lord's prayer was accurate when it was prayed. Nobody denies that. The kingdom came afterward, and the portion stating "Thy kingdom come" thus would be inaccurate after that.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
ScottyDouglas
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9/22/2012 5:04:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Let's notice Anna jumped over half of the argument! Let's notice that I am the only one confronting her argument in whole while giving mine. Let's go on!
I'll stop right here for a second. I'm telling you that John is the only one either one of us know of who was:

(1) standing with the Lord when He spake Mark 9: 1, and
(2) had any sort of a vision of the 2nd coming:
Really, Anna, states previously that "them" meant plural, didnt she?

Scotty says, "I know they all had different ones but nevertheless seen the vision of the kingdom!" No, you don't know that at all. You made it up. And another thing, here's Jesus Christ: "And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, that there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.":
Already explained, Sorry. Them, as you said, means plural. So, Oh..yes they did also see it.
Scotty trots out two thousand years later and say, "Oh, hey everybody, they didn't live to REALLY see it - they just saw it in a vision. They dreamed it.":
Oh, Anna, you really like to be sarcastic dont you? Gives you joy, doesn't it? Well by Anna'a approach here she is saying that the entire Bible was dreamed up! That is a load of laughs. Every Word of the Bible was seen by a prophet and experienced, just like this. Also, I never said they did not live to see it, they did, by the hand of Jesus Christ! This does not show in any way that the kingdom came to earth or is here now!
Then Scotty backs up and says, "Well, John saw it in a vision." John isn't a "they", Scotty. Next you just ASSERT, i. e. just made it up off the top of your head, that others had similar "visions" of the 2nd coming. Well, well!:
We see Anna, has a mouth on her and has mockery. To bad this is not backed up with scriptures but a lashing tongue. Anna also has fantasies about other people who do not read the Bible and make Unbiblical claims, I do not how that is any concern her, it is best she keeps those to herself, it has no value here.

Chalk one up for Scotty's imagination:
Oh, Anna, ever the kidder. Seem's she is the one dreaming dreams, because she does not even supply scriptures here, when she does supply some it isn't with the book and verse. How do we know it is even in the Bible? I do, but how about readers?

(1) He asserts that "seeing the kingdom come with power" refers to apocalyptic "visions" and "dreams". They didn't see it literally come. They dreamed it. No proof for his assertion - just blurts it out.:
Are you saying visions are not seeing? Are you saying that God did not literally bring them to heaven and show them befre their death? Are you saying that does not happen?
(2) He cites, based upon #1, John in Revelation as the one who had these visions, then:
I used John as a example, you play way out of context my explaination and that is dishonest. It is further dishonest because you use it as attacking my character.
(3) When it's pointed out that Christ stated that a plural number would see the 2nd coming, Scotty maintains that He spake of apocalyptic-style visions, then (once again) simply ASSERTS that other saw the same stuff.:
You pointed it out or was it in the Bible all along. No one missed 'them', you are just playing out of context my example like I only meant John and I already said what that is-Dishonest.

C'mon, Scotty! That's one assertion without proof after another.:
Woman, you are making the assertions, you havent even defended your case and attack mine.lol. You skip over half of it and choose what you will address. You further more do not even give scriptures to help you, just Anna's words, which mean nothing in a Bible discussion.

One more thing. YOU are the one who thinks all this stuff is literal, especially in Revelation, but look at you when you squirm: "Those LITERALLY standing with Christ did not LITERALLY see the LITERAL kingdom LITERALLY come within their lifetimes.":
LOL, Did we see it? She switched her whole stance, did you see it? She has been maintaining it literally came and they saw it in their lives on this earth. Now she is accusing me of it!LOL
That's your position. You run to visions and dreams, then simply fabricate the idea that multiple people had visions and dream similar in substance to the vision of John. Who can believe you?:
I never even stated they had the same vision. I simply gave a reason. The topic is the kingdom on earth, not Scotty's interpretation but that is where you want to go because you have no Biblical foundation. You objective is to show that the kingdom of God is on this earth, you have done poorly at it. Mocking me and critically attacking my interpretation does not help your case. Just saying! Also, we see that Anna has not respect for visions and hevenly experiences, the Bible is littered with them.

Explain it a little further because you'll imagine any old limb to crawl out on, and if it's rotten, you bear the brunt of the fall.:
It is your argument and we see that se wants me to take it up! No, Anna, you must explain. That your problem. You have no Biblical backing and foundation and all you have is a couple verses and attack everyone else from those. Try the whole Bible it may help you understand better!
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ScottyDouglas
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9/22/2012 5:10:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/22/2012 4:36:49 PM, annanicole wrote:
"In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come" (Matthew 6:9-10)

Scotty: This well-known prayer acknowledges that God's Kingdom is not here now.

Anna: Who said the kingdom was here when the Lord prayed that prayer? Not me. It wasn't. Repeat: the kingdom was not established until after the ascension, so you wasted your time on the Lord's Prayer.:

Scotty: Yep, guess Jesus was giving the gospel and prayers for a people of 30 or 40 years.

Anna: I'll repeat, "NO ONE said the kingdom of God was established when Jesus prayed that prayer." No one. The kingdom came after the ascension.

Scotty: The it would not be needed. I guess Jesus sends His kingdom to eath and leaves and allows sin to rule it.

Anna: And I guess you paid not one lick of attention to this fact: The Lord's prayer was accurate when it was prayed. Nobody denies that. The kingdom came afterward, and the portion stating "Thy kingdom come" thus would be inaccurate after that.:
We can all see Anna copied what she wanted, like she doesnt know you can read everything posted. Hmm..very telling indeed! She skips this entirely! I wonder why?
""Of course He did. The kingdom was not here until after the ascension.

He said that, after these events, people "will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory... When you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near" (verses 27, 31).:
That's absolutely true. Didn't Jesus conclude by saying, "even so ye also, when ye see all these things, know ye that he is nigh, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished.":

My reply:
"We see here that Anna says, 'that the kingdom comes after the ascention'. Then she adds us a passage that is very telling indeed. We see Jesus already ascended and comes back but the kingdom is not here yet, it is still near!"

@Anna,
Skip'd over all the scriptures I provided showing that Jesus Christ's kingdom is not on or of this earth, again, 2 times, Nice! Here they are again in short!

We read:

2 Corinthians 4:4 "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,"

=Seems the devil is the God of this world.

God and his chosen are not of this world. God's kingdom is not of this world. We read:

John 18:36 "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."

Seems we would not fight and quibble if God's kingdom was on this earth!

Hebrews 9:24 "For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:"
John 8:23 And he said to them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world."

We see here that heaven itself will be Jesus's kingdom, not on earth or in it.

Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."

Here we see the kingdom you proclaim. This kingdom is not on this earth! Because it will be a new heaven and new earth when it does!

Hebrews 11:16 "But now they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."
Matthew 24:13 "But he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world, for a testimony to all nations; and then shall the end come."

Seem's the gospel is of the kingdom and so is his people but not in it, Has the end came?

Anna, you must overcome!
TheAsylum
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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9/22/2012 5:19:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/22/2012 4:19:21 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
At 9/22/2012 3:46:37 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:

Gnostic was a derogatory term the church used to describe them all "know it alls"

They called themselves Telestai, ones who are aimed.

The found books predate the NT. At least one written by one of the disciples himself.
Toss out at your own risk.:

If it was suppose to be in the Bible and known by us through God, it would have appeared before the 1900's. The Bible has been around for thousands of years without and there is no need of them. Also, Gnostics were also practicing Kaballist, which was another sect of Jewish teaching and not from Biblical origin. Again, a part of mystery school teachings.
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annanicole
Posts: 19,788
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9/22/2012 5:48:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/22/2012 5:04:14 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
Let's notice Anna jumped over half of the argument! Let's notice that I am the only one confronting her argument in whole while giving mine. Let's go on!
I'll stop right here for a second. I'm telling you that John is the only one either one of us know of who was:

(1) standing with the Lord when He spake Mark 9: 1, and
(2) had any sort of a vision of the 2nd coming:
Really, Anna, states previously that "them" meant plural, didnt she?

Scotty says, "I know they all had different ones but nevertheless seen the vision of the kingdom!" No, you don't know that at all. You made it up. And another thing, here's Jesus Christ: "And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, that there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.":
Already explained, Sorry. Them, as you said, means plural. So, Oh..yes they did also see it.

Why, I wasn't asking for a re-assertion from you. I was asking for proof. Do you have any?

Scotty trots out two thousand years later and say, "Oh, hey everybody, they didn't live to REALLY see it - they just saw it in a vision. They dreamed it.":

Oh, Anna, you really like to be sarcastic dont you? Gives you joy, doesn't it? Well by Anna'a approach here she is saying that the entire Bible was dreamed up!

Nope, but the part about "multiple people who were standing there with Jesus saw visions of His 2nd coming" is certainly dreamt up by you.

That is a load of laughs. Every Word of the Bible was seen by a prophet and experienced, just like this. Also, I never said they did not live to see it, they did, by the hand of Jesus Christ! This does not show in any way that the kingdom came to earth or is here now!

But it shows that you can't prove that anyone other than John ever had an apocalytic vision of Christ's 2nd coming. Therefore, Mark 9: 1 doesn't refer to the 2nd coming at all.

Then Scotty backs up and says, "Well, John saw it in a vision." John isn't a "they", Scotty. Next you just ASSERT, i. e. just made it up off the top of your head, that others had similar "visions" of the 2nd coming. Well, well!:

We see Anna, has a mouth on her and has mockery. To bad this is not backed up with scriptures but a lashing tongue.

Umm .. you won't me to prove a negative. I can't prove anyone else ever had an apocalyptic vision of Christ's 2nd coming. You simply asserted that someone did. Who was it, Scotty?

Anna also has fantasies about other people who do not read the Bible and make Unbiblical claims, I do not how that is any concern her, it is best she keeps those to herself, it has no value here.

Huh?

Chalk one up for Scotty's imagination:
Oh, Anna, ever the kidder. Seem's she is the one dreaming dreams, because she does not even supply scriptures here, when she does supply some it isn't with the book and verse. How do we know it is even in the Bible? I do, but how about readers?

(1) He asserts that "seeing the kingdom come with power" refers to apocalyptic "visions" and "dreams". They didn't see it literally come. They dreamed it. No proof for his assertion - just blurts it out.:
Are you saying visions are not seeing? Are you saying that God did not literally bring them to heaven and show them befre their death? Are you saying that does not happen?

I'm saying any proof of your assertions is sorely lacking. Every claim you are making on this has a great source: the 23rd chapter of your imagination. I'm saying that you can't prove that ANYONE ever had an apocalyptic vision or dream even related to the 2nd coming other than John. Absolutely no record of it. No hint of it.

(2) He cites, based upon #1, John in Revelation as the one who had these visions, then:
I used John as a example, you play way out of context my explaination and that is dishonest. It is further dishonest because you use it as attacking my character.

LOL @ John an "a example". You used him as THE example - and stretched it to do that - and you can't find another one.

(3) When it's pointed out that Christ stated that a plural number would see the 2nd coming, Scotty maintains that He spake of apocalyptic-style visions, then (once again) simply ASSERTS that other saw the same stuff.:
You pointed it out or was it in the Bible all along. No one missed 'them', you are just playing out of context my example like I only meant John and I already said what that is-Dishonest.

C'mon, Scotty! That's one assertion without proof after another.:
Woman, you are making the assertions, you havent even defended your case and attack mine.lol. You skip over half of it and choose what you will address. You further more do not even give scriptures to help you, just Anna's words, which mean nothing in a Bible discussion.

I gave you Mark 9: 1 about five times. All you do is assert that it was fulfilled when John saw apocalyptic visions on Patmos. That's it. Suppose the passage has nothing to do with visions and dreams. Wanna try that? Absolutely no indication that it does. Then you turn around and simply make things up: you claim others saw the same type and substance of future matters that John did. Any proof? Course not.

One more thing. YOU are the one who thinks all this stuff is literal, especially in Revelation, but look at you when you squirm: "Those LITERALLY standing with Christ did not LITERALLY see the LITERAL kingdom LITERALLY come within their lifetimes.":
LOL, Did we see it? She switched her whole stance, did you see it? She has been maintaining it literally came and they saw it in their lives on this earth. Now she is accusing me of it!LOL

My stance remains the same. Yours doesn't. I do maintain that it literally, actually came. You claim that it came "in a dream."

That's your position. You run to visions and dreams, then simply fabricate the idea that multiple people had visions and dream similar in substance to the vision of John. Who can believe you?:
I never even stated they had the same vision. I simply gave a reason. The topic is the kingdom on earth, not Scotty's interpretation but that is where you want to go because you have no Biblical foundation. Mocking me and critically attacking my interpretation does not help your case.

Your interpretation? More like I attacked your imagination. You made the whole thing up concerning Mark 9: 1, and you know it. For a moment, I thought you were joking.

Just saying! Also, we see that Anna has not respect for visions and hevenly experiences, the Bible is littered with them.

No, I have very little respect for the fabrication of them by you. You made it up. Want to prove that anyone else had any vision of Christ's 2nd coming? You said they did.

Explain it a little further because you'll imagine any old limb to crawl out on, and if it's rotten, you bear the brunt of the fall.:
It is your argument and we see that se wants me to take it up! No, Anna, you must explain. That your problem. You have no Biblical backing and foundation and all you have is a couple verses and attack everyone else from those. Try the whole Bible it may help you understand better!

Why, I'll stick with Mark 9: 1: "And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power."

I'll stand by it, and say they DID live to see it. Many of them. That's because the kingdom came on the first Pentecost after the ascension of Christ. I sure don't have to wander aimlessly and assert that Jesus meant "see it in a dream" like you do. Then claim that multiple people had dreams or visions. Then claim that these multiple-person visions were of the 2nd coming. Repeat: you have no proof, except a out-of-control imagination.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."