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How do you KNOW?

Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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9/23/2012 10:12:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
How do you know God is real? The debate arguments for God's existence provide some of the least convincing reasons to believe in God, and are not the real reasons those of faith believe in the first place. Why do you think God is real and why did you first believe?
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Primal Diet. Lifting. Reading. Psychedelics. Cold-Approach Pickup. Music.
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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9/23/2012 10:15:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I don't know anything. Least of all the existence of God. That would be borderline arrogance.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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9/23/2012 10:22:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I don't claim to know.
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Deathbeforedishonour
Posts: 1,058
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9/23/2012 10:23:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
For the most part I agree with you but, the problem is I don't know... :/ Atheist, Theist, Deist, Pantheist? I have started to think that these type of truths are out reach.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ~ John 1:1

Matthew 10:22- "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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9/23/2012 10:24:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/23/2012 10:23:28 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:
For the most part I agree with you but, the problem is I don't know... :/ Atheist, Theist, Deist, Pantheist? I have started to think that these type of truths are out reach.

Bro, deism is theistic.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
THEBOMB
Posts: 2,872
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9/23/2012 10:24:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/23/2012 10:12:16 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
How do you know God is real? The debate arguments for God's existence provide some of the least convincing reasons to believe in God, and are not the real reasons those of faith believe in the first place. Why do you think God is real and why did you first believe?

How does a person know whether god is real or whether god is not real? Claiming 100% proof either way is just dishonest...
Deathbeforedishonour
Posts: 1,058
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9/23/2012 10:26:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/23/2012 10:24:50 PM, phantom wrote:
At 9/23/2012 10:23:28 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:
For the most part I agree with you but, the problem is I don't know... :/ Atheist, Theist, Deist, Pantheist? I have started to think that these type of truths are out reach.

Bro, deism is theistic.

Theist implies a personal god that intervenes in the affairs of mankind. Deism implies a god that doesn't really care.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ~ John 1:1

Matthew 10:22- "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
ScottyDouglas
Posts: 2,350
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9/23/2012 10:27:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/23/2012 10:12:16 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
How do you know God is real? The debate arguments for God's existence provide some of the least convincing reasons to believe in God, and are not the real reasons those of faith believe in the first place. Why do you think God is real and why did you first believe?

Because the believer had a personnel experience and God revealed himself. Plus, prophecies after prophecies that came true. Hey, you can say they made the prophecy come true, well yes, it still came true nevertheless.
TheAsylum
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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9/23/2012 10:28:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/23/2012 10:26:41 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:
At 9/23/2012 10:24:50 PM, phantom wrote:
At 9/23/2012 10:23:28 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:
For the most part I agree with you but, the problem is I don't know... :/ Atheist, Theist, Deist, Pantheist? I have started to think that these type of truths are out reach.

Bro, deism is theistic.

Theist implies a personal god that intervenes in the affairs of mankind. Deism implies a god that doesn't really care.

Um no. Theism is belief in God. You're making the same mistake Hitchens did in his debate with Craig.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
THEBOMB
Posts: 2,872
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9/23/2012 10:30:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/23/2012 10:28:06 PM, phantom wrote:
At 9/23/2012 10:26:41 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:
At 9/23/2012 10:24:50 PM, phantom wrote:
At 9/23/2012 10:23:28 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:
For the most part I agree with you but, the problem is I don't know... :/ Atheist, Theist, Deist, Pantheist? I have started to think that these type of truths are out reach.

Bro, deism is theistic.

Theist implies a personal god that intervenes in the affairs of mankind. Deism implies a god that doesn't really care.

Um no. Theism is belief in God. You're making the same mistake Hitchens did in his debate with Craig.

"Theism, in the broadest sense, is the belief that at least one deity exists." (http://en.wikipedia.org...)
Deathbeforedishonour
Posts: 1,058
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9/23/2012 10:32:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/23/2012 10:28:06 PM, phantom wrote:
At 9/23/2012 10:26:41 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:
At 9/23/2012 10:24:50 PM, phantom wrote:
At 9/23/2012 10:23:28 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:
For the most part I agree with you but, the problem is I don't know... :/ Atheist, Theist, Deist, Pantheist? I have started to think that these type of truths are out reach.

Bro, deism is theistic.

Theist implies a personal god that intervenes in the affairs of mankind. Deism implies a god that doesn't really care.

Um no. Theism is belief in God. You're making the same mistake Hitchens did in his debate with Craig.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com...

http://www.thefreedictionary.com...

Definitions disagree with you. Hitchens made no mistake.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ~ John 1:1

Matthew 10:22- "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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9/23/2012 10:37:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The problem with definitions is that they tend to lean to majority view sometimes. The vast majority of theists believe in a personal God and deists are quite a minority. But all deists I've ever spoken to or read refer to themselves as theists such as Antony Flew (and myself). The "the" pertains to God and "ism" to belief. It's belief in God.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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9/23/2012 10:43:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
And definitions contradict so the debate should rest elsewhere.

http://atheism.about.com...
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Deathbeforedishonour
Posts: 1,058
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9/23/2012 10:44:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/23/2012 10:37:16 PM, phantom wrote:
The problem with definitions is that they tend to lean to majority view sometimes. The vast majority of theists believe in a personal God and deists are quite a minority. But all deists I've ever spoken to or read refer to themselves as theists such as Antony Flew (and myself). The "the" pertains to God and "ism" to belief. It's belief in God.

Well for one, Deists don't believe in "God" they believe in a god. The word god is only capitalized when used as a name. And second, it doesn't matter. The English language says Deism is not Theistic, because the god or intelligent designer (doesn't matter) of the Deist concept is not personal. The Theist concept of gods are gods that intervene in human life. They are different.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ~ John 1:1

Matthew 10:22- "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
Deathbeforedishonour
Posts: 1,058
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9/23/2012 10:47:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/23/2012 10:43:58 PM, phantom wrote:
And definitions contradict so the debate should rest elsewhere.

http://atheism.about.com...

About.com? Seriously?! English dictionary is better.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ~ John 1:1

Matthew 10:22- "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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9/23/2012 10:48:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/23/2012 10:44:55 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:
At 9/23/2012 10:37:16 PM, phantom wrote:
The problem with definitions is that they tend to lean to majority view sometimes. The vast majority of theists believe in a personal God and deists are quite a minority. But all deists I've ever spoken to or read refer to themselves as theists such as Antony Flew (and myself). The "the" pertains to God and "ism" to belief. It's belief in God.

Well for one, Deists don't believe in "God" they believe in a god. The word god is only capitalized when used as a name.

What...?

And second, it doesn't matter. The English language says Deism is not Theistic, because the god or intelligent designer (doesn't matter) of the Deist concept is not personal. The Theist concept of gods are gods that intervene in human life. They are different.

Restate and unaddress what I said I see. And as I just showed, definitions don't all sway your side.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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9/23/2012 10:54:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/23/2012 10:47:09 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:
At 9/23/2012 10:43:58 PM, phantom wrote:
And definitions contradict so the debate should rest elsewhere.

http://atheism.about.com...

About.com? Seriously?! English dictionary is better.

Funny thing is your definition didn't prove anything. " Belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in a personal God as creator and ruler of the world."

How on earth does especially imply necessity?? I claim that definition as support for my side.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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9/23/2012 11:54:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
So far we've had:
1) idfk
2) Personal experience
3) Prophecies fulfilled (even if self-fulfilled)
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Primal Diet. Lifting. Reading. Psychedelics. Cold-Approach Pickup. Music.
JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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9/24/2012 12:54:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/23/2012 10:44:55 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:
At 9/23/2012 10:37:16 PM, phantom wrote:
The problem with definitions is that they tend to lean to majority view sometimes. The vast majority of theists believe in a personal God and deists are quite a minority. But all deists I've ever spoken to or read refer to themselves as theists such as Antony Flew (and myself). The "the" pertains to God and "ism" to belief. It's belief in God.

Well for one, Deists don't believe in "God" they believe in a god. The word god is only capitalized when used as a name. And second, it doesn't matter. The English language says Deism is not Theistic, because the god or intelligent designer (doesn't matter) of the Deist concept is not personal. The Theist concept of gods are gods that intervene in human life. They are different.

Oh boy... sorry, but you fail.

First... your own supplied definition of deism states "The belief, based solely on reason, in a God" with a capital G. Lol.

Secondly, your supplied definition of theism isn't limited to a personal God. "Belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in a personal God as creator and ruler of the world." Especially doesn't mean exclusively. Theism means belief in a god or gods... the especially part just means that the majority of theists believe in God as creator. It doesn't mean that all theistic belief is personal/interventionist. Convenient to just leave out the first half of your definition, right?

Thirdly, a God who is non-personal is still a god, so a deist God fits within theism.
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
JaxsonRaine
Posts: 3,606
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9/24/2012 12:56:24 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/23/2012 10:47:09 PM, Deathbeforedishonour wrote:
At 9/23/2012 10:43:58 PM, phantom wrote:
And definitions contradict so the debate should rest elsewhere.

http://atheism.about.com...

About.com? Seriously?! English dictionary is better.

thefreedictionary.com? Seriously?

Try Merriam Webster, Oxford, Cambridge...
twocupcakes: 15 = 13
Archistrategos
Posts: 602
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9/24/2012 1:14:03 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/24/2012 12:57:01 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
Personal experience. There can be no doubt for me.

Likewise. There is no room for doubt and belief no longer functions. I know. And in following that knowing and finding even more I am changed until there is no longer a known and a know-er but a fluency of Being.
Archistrategos
Posts: 602
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9/24/2012 1:15:02 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/24/2012 12:57:01 AM, JaxsonRaine wrote:
Personal experience. There can be no doubt for me.

Can you describe it?
Archistrategos
Posts: 602
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9/24/2012 2:37:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/24/2012 2:32:19 AM, Mirza wrote:
The Quran plays a huge role. I doubt any man could construct such a book.

I would love to see a comparison of the mathematical word harmonies of the Quran as compared to the Bible.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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9/24/2012 2:39:25 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/24/2012 2:37:54 AM, Archistrategos wrote:
At 9/24/2012 2:32:19 AM, Mirza wrote:
The Quran plays a huge role. I doubt any man could construct such a book.

I would love to see a comparison of the mathematical word harmonies of the Quran as compared to the Bible.
Feel free to compare Sir.
Archistrategos
Posts: 602
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9/24/2012 2:50:34 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/24/2012 2:39:25 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 9/24/2012 2:37:54 AM, Archistrategos wrote:
At 9/24/2012 2:32:19 AM, Mirza wrote:
The Quran plays a huge role. I doubt any man could construct such a book.

I would love to see a comparison of the mathematical word harmonies of the Quran as compared to the Bible.
Feel free to compare Sir.

*get's out abacus and piece of slate*

On second thought lets see what google has to say...
Archistrategos
Posts: 602
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9/24/2012 3:10:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/24/2012 2:39:25 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 9/24/2012 2:37:54 AM, Archistrategos wrote:
At 9/24/2012 2:32:19 AM, Mirza wrote:
The Quran plays a huge role. I doubt any man could construct such a book.

I would love to see a comparison of the mathematical word harmonies of the Quran as compared to the Bible.
Feel free to compare Sir.

Looks like the signature of God is in both...http://www.universalunity.net...

Dr. Khalifa's discovery is extremely significant, especially since it matches the findings of Rabbi Judah the Pious. The common denominator of the Quran's mathematical code, the number nineteen, was reported by Rabbi Judah "in the liturgy, in the Scripture, in nature, in historical events and throughout the universe."

Thus, God's `signature,' the number nineteen, encodes and guarantees every letter and every parameter of the Quran, and intact portions of the Torah. It also places the Creator's stamp on our own creation, on major historical events, on the sun/moon/earth interactions and throughout the universe.

But then what about this? The Koran teaches that abrogation, or "anulling", of verses in the Koran by Allah is acceptable.
If We abrogate any verse or cause it to be forgotten We will replace it by a better one or similar. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?
Sura 2:107
When We change one verse for another (Allah knows best what He reveals), they say: "You are an imposter." Indeed most of them are ignorant men.
Sura 16:95

Would that not change the mathematical harmonies of the specific words and letters?

Much, much to study....
Archistrategos
Posts: 602
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9/24/2012 3:23:33 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Now this: http://www.19miracle.org...

It is possible that this new approach was merely "academic," and it was not regarded as necessary to keep all the numerical combinations and associations in mind when actually praying. However, there can be no doubt that this new attitude had two results, one of which is manifested in this treatise, while the other is evident from all Ashkenazi Hasidic treatments of the subject: (a) No change can be tolerated in the text of the prayers, not even a minute one, because every change " even of one letter " would destroy the numerical harmony inherent in the text. It does not matter, therefore, whether the change is beneficial from the point of view of meaning and content, for this level of meaning is not the most important one in the prayers. The text was formed to reflect mystical harmony, and any change would destroy it

So we have the Judaic tradition that cannot tolerate change in their scripture because it changes the fundamental mathematical harmonies......and yet the Islamic tradition allows for it....curiouser and curiouser....

And then I find this:http://www.islamicity.com...

The Quran claims that NO ONE can change the Word of God.
Sura 6:34; 10:34
All these above texts presuppose the availability of the true revelation of God to the people of Muhammad's day.
-Sura 3:71,93; 10:94; 21:71
A true Muslim is obliged to believe in all the revelations of God. Sura 2:136; 4:136; 29:46
The Quran makes no distinction between God's revelations
Sura 2:136

What is a student of God to do?

jeremiah 8:8
" 'How can you say, "We are wise,
for we have the law of the LORD,"
when actually the lying pen of the scribes
has handled it falsely?

You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life. (John 5:39-40

Look to God the Son, The Man of Light in whom there is no darkness. Seek the Living Word.

This is the best resolution I can come up with.

Peace to you brother and thank you for the prompting the exploration! It shall continue =)