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atheists and agnostics...

comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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9/21/2009 3:38:48 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
If the god of christianity proved to be real, would you follow him?
- read the bible
- go to church
- live in a "godly light"

or if any god came up and proved himself to be real would you follow?
- mormon
- jewish
- muslim
- hindu
- buddhism

or would you just throw your hands up and just say screw it.

(and i do mean that he proves himself with out a shadow of a doubt)
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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9/21/2009 3:45:32 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
There is no way God could prove Himself without a shadow of a doubt because God's own existence is logically impossible, so there isn't any way that I or anyone else would have to deal with it.
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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9/21/2009 3:46:03 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Depending on the religion, what is advocated is in no way made better, even with a supernatural backing. The issue is not as much as 'is this codex of commands really divinely inspired' but 'should they be followed, regardless if they were divinely inspired' and the answer is no. :)
comoncents
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9/21/2009 3:50:34 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/21/2009 3:45:32 PM, Volkov wrote:
There is no way God could prove Himself without a shadow of a doubt because God's own existence is logically impossible, so there isn't any way that I or anyone else would have to deal with it.

alright, i get see what you are saying...

not with out a shadow of doubt, but proved himself enough to make you really believe in him...

what would you do... stick to your guns or submit.
comoncents
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9/21/2009 3:51:20 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/21/2009 3:46:03 PM, Puck wrote:
Depending on the religion, what is advocated is in no way made better, even with a supernatural backing. The issue is not as much as 'is this codex of commands really divinely inspired' but 'should they be followed, regardless if they were divinely inspired' and the answer is no. :)
MTGandP
Posts: 702
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9/21/2009 3:51:34 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I agree with Volkov. But even if God somehow proved His existence, would I follow him? Let's assume we are talking about the Christian God.

I would want to obey him so that I don't get sent to Hell. Hell sounds pretty bad. At the same time, though, that would go against nearly every ounce of moral soundness that I possess. God is a rotten, cold-hearted, sadistic bastard and the only reason I'd ever worship him is if he threatened to send me to a land of eternal fire and torture and suffering.
comoncents
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9/21/2009 3:53:47 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/21/2009 3:51:34 PM, MTGandP wrote:
I agree with Volkov. But even if God somehow proved His existence, would I follow him? Let's assume we are talking about the Christian God.

I would want to obey him so that I don't get sent to Hell. Hell sounds pretty bad. At the same time, though, that would go against nearly every ounce of moral soundness that I possess. God is a rotten, cold-hearted, sadistic bastard and the only reason I'd ever worship him is if he threatened to send me to a land of eternal fire and torture and suffering.

i agree, a bit, with the first part... up until you lost the handle, just a little bit, lol.
Volkov
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9/21/2009 3:54:44 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/21/2009 3:51:34 PM, MTGandP wrote:
I agree with Volkov. But even if God somehow proved His existence, would I follow him? Let's assume we are talking about the Christian God.

I would want to obey him so that I don't get sent to Hell. Hell sounds pretty bad. At the same time, though, that would go against nearly every ounce of moral soundness that I possess. God is a rotten, cold-hearted, sadistic bastard and the only reason I'd ever worship him is if he threatened to send me to a land of eternal fire and torture and suffering.

Sigged.

But assuming that somehow God exists, I agree with MTGrandP on this. My survival mechanism tells me to follow because I want to avoid Hell; but my reasoning center tells me that any entity that creates Hell in the first place isn't something I should be following. Associating with sadistic creeps isn't my style.
MTGandP
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9/21/2009 3:56:51 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/21/2009 3:54:44 PM, Volkov wrote:
But assuming that somehow God exists, I agree with MTGrandP on this. My survival mechanism tells me to follow because I want to avoid Hell; but my reasoning center tells me that any entity that creates Hell in the first place isn't something I should be following. Associating with sadistic creeps isn't my style.

Yeah. Should I be a good person and try to help the world and all that, or should I selfishly try to avoid Hell? Choices, choices.
MTGandP
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9/21/2009 3:58:04 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Here's another question. Let's say I go to Hell. Will I still go insane from the neverending torture? Or does Hell not let you go insane? Along the same line of thinking, can I ever get used to the pain?
patsox834
Posts: 406
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9/21/2009 4:07:19 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/21/2009 3:38:48 PM, comoncents wrote:
If the god of christianity proved to be real, would you follow him?
- read the bible
- go to church
- live in a "godly light"

or if any god came up and proved himself to be real would you follow?
- mormon
- jewish
- muslim
- hindu
- buddhism

or would you just throw your hands up and just say screw it.

(and i do mean that he proves himself with out a shadow of a doubt)

Well, if he proved himself, I'd certainly respect that fact, but I wouldn't let it drastically change how I am. Would I go to church, or subscribe to any particular religious doctrines? I don't know; it'd depend on how he reveals himself, what messages he sends, etc.

I'd probably read the Bible -- but that's on my to do list, anyway.

Really, though, I tend to think I wouldn't be comfortable if a God did exist, because that'd essentially make life one major assignment.
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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9/21/2009 4:08:41 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/21/2009 3:45:32 PM, Volkov wrote:
There is no way God could prove Himself without a shadow of a doubt because God's own existence is logically impossible, so there isn't any way that I or anyone else would have to deal with it.

Explain.
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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9/21/2009 4:09:26 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/21/2009 3:54:44 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 9/21/2009 3:51:34 PM, MTGandP wrote:
I agree with Volkov. But even if God somehow proved His existence, would I follow him? Let's assume we are talking about the Christian God.

I would want to obey him so that I don't get sent to Hell. Hell sounds pretty bad. At the same time, though, that would go against nearly every ounce of moral soundness that I possess. God is a rotten, cold-hearted, sadistic bastard and the only reason I'd ever worship him is if he threatened to send me to a land of eternal fire and torture and suffering.

Sigged.

But assuming that somehow God exists, I agree with MTGrandP on this. My survival mechanism tells me to follow because I want to avoid Hell; but my reasoning center tells me that any entity that creates Hell in the first place isn't something I should be following. Associating with sadistic creeps isn't my style.

i agree...
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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9/21/2009 4:10:36 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/21/2009 4:08:41 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 9/21/2009 3:45:32 PM, Volkov wrote:
There is no way God could prove Himself without a shadow of a doubt because God's own existence is logically impossible, so there isn't any way that I or anyone else would have to deal with it.

Explain.

Explain how God can show itself. God is supposedly anything and everything. He would have to do a really good magic trick, ahem, miracle to prove itself.
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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9/21/2009 4:11:48 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/21/2009 3:58:04 PM, MTGandP wrote:
Here's another question. Let's say I go to Hell. Will I still go insane from the neverending torture? Or does Hell not let you go insane? Along the same line of thinking, can I ever get used to the pain?

i am not an expert but i think your soul is the only thing that goes to hell.

your brain and body do not burn... your soul does... and if i am not mistaken you soul is like another part... like another person...

i don't know... it seems like everything you know now will be left behind and you will not even know your old self.
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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9/21/2009 4:13:07 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/21/2009 4:10:36 PM, Nags wrote:
At 9/21/2009 4:08:41 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 9/21/2009 3:45:32 PM, Volkov wrote:
There is no way God could prove Himself without a shadow of a doubt because God's own existence is logically impossible, so there isn't any way that I or anyone else would have to deal with it.

Explain.

Explain how God can show itself. God is supposedly anything and everything. He would have to do a really good magic trick, ahem, miracle to prove itself.

He could very easily write it in the clouds if he wanted to. However, I'm questioning Volkov's assertion that God's existence is logically impossible.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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9/21/2009 4:13:18 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/21/2009 3:38:48 PM, comoncents wrote:
If the god of christianity proved to be real, would you follow him?
- read the bible
- go to church
- live in a "godly light"

or if any god came up and proved himself to be real would you follow?
- mormon
- jewish
- muslim
- hindu
- buddhism

or would you just throw your hands up and just say screw it.

(and i do mean that he proves himself with out a shadow of a doubt)

In a heartbeat. If it were conclusively proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Christian God exists, I will become the most devout Christian on the face of the Earth.

If it was just some arbitrary deity though, I think I'd ask him what he wants me to do, and I'll do it.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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9/21/2009 4:14:41 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/21/2009 4:13:07 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 9/21/2009 4:10:36 PM, Nags wrote:
At 9/21/2009 4:08:41 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 9/21/2009 3:45:32 PM, Volkov wrote:
There is no way God could prove Himself without a shadow of a doubt because God's own existence is logically impossible, so there isn't any way that I or anyone else would have to deal with it.

Explain.

Explain how God can show itself. God is supposedly anything and everything. He would have to do a really good magic trick, ahem, miracle to prove itself.

He could very easily write it in the clouds if he wanted to.

Lol, anyone could write 'God Exists' in the clouds.

However, I'm questioning Volkov's assertion that God's existence is logically impossible.

I think I know what he means, but I'll let him explain himself.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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9/21/2009 4:16:31 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/21/2009 3:54:44 PM, Volkov wrote:
But assuming that somehow God exists, I agree with MTGrandP on this. My survival mechanism tells me to follow because I want to avoid Hell; but my reasoning center tells me that any entity that creates Hell in the first place isn't something I should be following. Associating with sadistic creeps isn't my style.

I'd redefine my entire moral core instead. Obviously, if God thinks that it's OK to worship a sadistic creep like him, who am I to argue? It it is conclusively proven that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent, regardless of whatever logical rules that breaks, I'll just dedicate my life to tearing down what I perceive to have been logical and in place, construct a mindset and personality that is to God's liking.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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9/21/2009 4:17:17 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/21/2009 4:14:41 PM, Nags wrote:
At 9/21/2009 4:13:07 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 9/21/2009 4:10:36 PM, Nags wrote:
At 9/21/2009 4:08:41 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 9/21/2009 3:45:32 PM, Volkov wrote:
There is no way God could prove Himself without a shadow of a doubt because God's own existence is logically impossible, so there isn't any way that I or anyone else would have to deal with it.

Explain.

Explain how God can show itself. God is supposedly anything and everything. He would have to do a really good magic trick, ahem, miracle to prove itself.

He could very easily write it in the clouds if he wanted to.

Lol, anyone could write 'God Exists' in the clouds.

Could anybody do it without a plane? If "God Exists" suddenly appeared in the clouds before your eyes, with no airplane nearby, what would you do. No, better yet, "I, your God, exists!"
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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9/21/2009 4:17:48 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/21/2009 4:13:18 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 9/21/2009 3:38:48 PM, comoncents wrote:
If the god of christianity proved to be real, would you follow him?
- read the bible
- go to church
- live in a "godly light"

or if any god came up and proved himself to be real would you follow?
- mormon
- jewish
- muslim
- hindu
- buddhism

or would you just throw your hands up and just say screw it.

(and i do mean that he proves himself with out a shadow of a doubt)

In a heartbeat. If it were conclusively proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Christian God exists, I will become the most devout Christian on the face of the Earth.

If it was just some arbitrary deity though, I think I'd ask him what he wants me to do, and I'll do it.

well if we are around when armageddon happens... i think that may be a good sign... all that stuff thats in the bible... a bunch of people disappearing and locus' just coming out of the ground.

that would be a good indication that he may be real... hey thomas needed to feel the wholes in jesus' hand... so do I
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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9/21/2009 4:19:45 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/21/2009 4:17:17 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 9/21/2009 4:14:41 PM, Nags wrote:
At 9/21/2009 4:13:07 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 9/21/2009 4:10:36 PM, Nags wrote:
At 9/21/2009 4:08:41 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 9/21/2009 3:45:32 PM, Volkov wrote:
There is no way God could prove Himself without a shadow of a doubt because God's own existence is logically impossible, so there isn't any way that I or anyone else would have to deal with it.

Explain.

Explain how God can show itself. God is supposedly anything and everything. He would have to do a really good magic trick, ahem, miracle to prove itself.

He could very easily write it in the clouds if he wanted to.

Lol, anyone could write 'God Exists' in the clouds.

Could anybody do it without a plane? If "God Exists" suddenly appeared in the clouds before your eyes, with no airplane nearby, what would you do. No, better yet, "I, your God, exists!"

I'd call bullsh!t. Anyway, technology is pretty advanced, I reckon it's pretty easy to write 'God Exists' in the sky without an airplane.
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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9/21/2009 4:21:10 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/21/2009 4:19:45 PM, Nags wrote:
At 9/21/2009 4:17:17 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 9/21/2009 4:14:41 PM, Nags wrote:
At 9/21/2009 4:13:07 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 9/21/2009 4:10:36 PM, Nags wrote:
At 9/21/2009 4:08:41 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 9/21/2009 3:45:32 PM, Volkov wrote:
There is no way God could prove Himself without a shadow of a doubt because God's own existence is logically impossible, so there isn't any way that I or anyone else would have to deal with it.

Explain.

Explain how God can show itself. God is supposedly anything and everything. He would have to do a really good magic trick, ahem, miracle to prove itself.

He could very easily write it in the clouds if he wanted to.

Lol, anyone could write 'God Exists' in the clouds.

Could anybody do it without a plane? If "God Exists" suddenly appeared in the clouds before your eyes, with no airplane nearby, what would you do. No, better yet, "I, your God, exists!"

I'd call bullsh!t. Anyway, technology is pretty advanced, I reckon it's pretty easy to write 'God Exists' in the sky without an airplane.

yeah, i agree.
that would be a weak showing of an "all powerful god".
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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9/21/2009 4:25:05 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/21/2009 4:13:07 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 9/21/2009 4:10:36 PM, Nags wrote:
At 9/21/2009 4:08:41 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 9/21/2009 3:45:32 PM, Volkov wrote:
There is no way God could prove Himself without a shadow of a doubt because God's own existence is logically impossible, so there isn't any way that I or anyone else would have to deal with it.

Explain.

Explain how God can show itself. God is supposedly anything and everything. He would have to do a really good magic trick, ahem, miracle to prove itself.

He could very easily write it in the clouds if he wanted to. However, I'm questioning Volkov's assertion that God's existence is logically impossible.

I could also fairly easily write it in the clouds that God doesn't exist. Do you have any idea how easy it is to get a stunt pilot license?

God's existence is logically impossible simply by virtue of trying to be omnipresent, omnibenevolent and anything else He claims to be. God is a square circle; he cannot be omnipresent, which means that God is present in Hell, and omnibenevolent, and Hell is clearly not a benevolent creation of God's.

I don't know; there is better people to explain it, but God is logically impossible.
JBlake
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9/21/2009 4:31:22 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/21/2009 4:25:05 PM, Volkov wrote:
God's existence is logically impossible simply by virtue of trying to be omnipresent, omnibenevolent and anything else He claims to be. God is a square circle; he cannot be omnipresent, which means that God is present in Hell, and omnibenevolent, and Hell is clearly not a benevolent creation of God's.

I don't know; there is better people to explain it, but God is logically impossible.

You are arguing against the Christian God (really, all Abrahamic religions). Your arguments hold true only when applied to these religions with a clearly defined god.

These arguments would not apply to a deistic god (one who created the universe and the rules of physics, then left it alone). It is more difficult to say with as much certainty that such a god does not exist.

Applying the question to a deistic god results in a similar conclusion, but for different reasons. A theistic god would not show himself because he is demonstrably fictitious. A deistic god would likely never reveal himself and demand worship because by definition he is not involved in affairs of the universe.
Kleptin
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9/21/2009 4:32:10 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
If God were to prove himself, I think we'd be fine with throwing logic aside. Logic is not the end-all-be-all of everything.

Here's how I imagine it would be.

You're in the middle of doing whatever it is you're doing and suddenly, you're in the garden of eden, along with all other 6 Billion people on the planet, naked.

Suddenly have the understanding that God exists. No thinking, no voices, you understand it perfectly, and it correlates with all the other thoughts in your head.

Then, you quickly flash through all the memories you have, even the ones you forgot, and relive your life backwards, all the way to your birth.

At that point, you're back exactly where you were, exactly how you were, except now, twitter and facebook updates are going off the charts.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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9/21/2009 4:35:53 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/21/2009 4:32:10 PM, Kleptin wrote:
If God were to prove himself, I think we'd be fine with throwing logic aside. Logic is not the end-all-be-all of everything.

Here's how I imagine it would be.

You're in the middle of doing whatever it is you're doing and suddenly, you're in the garden of eden, along with all other 6 Billion people on the planet, naked.

Suddenly have the understanding that God exists. No thinking, no voices, you understand it perfectly, and it correlates with all the other thoughts in your head.

Then, you quickly flash through all the memories you have, even the ones you forgot, and relive your life backwards, all the way to your birth.

At that point, you're back exactly where you were, exactly how you were, except now, twitter and facebook updates are going off the charts.

hahahahaha
imagination does not fail you at all.
SWfiend
Posts: 16
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9/21/2009 6:33:25 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Before I follow or disassociate myself with a God who is able to prove himself to only me but to the rest of humanity, I would ask him questions.
"Why is there a hell? Evil? Death? Etc, etc."
I would have a complete glossary of questions that I'd want to ask it (can you really call God a He or a She?). If God is able to adequately answer my questions, then I will follow.
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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9/21/2009 8:19:30 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 9/21/2009 4:25:05 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 9/21/2009 4:13:07 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 9/21/2009 4:10:36 PM, Nags wrote:
At 9/21/2009 4:08:41 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 9/21/2009 3:45:32 PM, Volkov wrote:
There is no way God could prove Himself without a shadow of a doubt because God's own existence is logically impossible, so there isn't any way that I or anyone else would have to deal with it.

Explain.

Explain how God can show itself. God is supposedly anything and everything. He would have to do a really good magic trick, ahem, miracle to prove itself.

He could very easily write it in the clouds if he wanted to. However, I'm questioning Volkov's assertion that God's existence is logically impossible.

I could also fairly easily write it in the clouds that God doesn't exist. Do you have any idea how easy it is to get a stunt pilot license?

God's existence is logically impossible simply by virtue of trying to be omnipresent, omnibenevolent and anything else He claims to be. God is a square circle; he cannot be omnipresent, which means that God is present in Hell, and omnibenevolent, and Hell is clearly not a benevolent creation of God's.

I don't know; there is better people to explain it, but God is logically impossible.

You see, you assume that because some people claim that God is omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenelolent, and you say that one cannot be those four at once, God therefore can't exist, rather than the real conclusion: God therefore can't both exist and have the aforementioned attributes.
Floid
Posts: 751
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9/22/2009 5:22:18 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
If the god of Christianity proved to be real, would you follow him?

If the God of Christianity was demonstrated to be real I would not follow him. I would then acknowledge his existence, however if the claims of the Bible were true he has done some things that bar me from worshiping him. One example would be the 10th plague of Egypt where he intentionally killing tens of thousands (or more) children. I can not worship an all-powerful being who would do that. Or a supposedly intelligent being who would proscribe the death penalty (and a very brutal form of it: throwing rocks at people until they die) for a variety of silly things: being a "witch", homosexual, or a female who gets raped but doesn't yell loud enough for help (Deuteronomy 22:23-24) or woman who wasn't a virgin when she was married (Deuteronomy 22:20-21).

So no, I couldn't quite bring myself to worship a being who doesn't seem to smart to begin with.

: or if any god came up and proved himself to be real would you follow?
- Mormon
- Jewish
- Muslim
- Hindu
- Buddhism


Well Mormon, Jewish and Muslim basically worship the same God as Christianity, they just put a different twist on it (or lack of a twist as with Christianities use of the Jewish God)... so no.

Hindu - don't really know enough about it to comment. I like eating cows though so probably not.

Buddhism really doesn't have a God so it is a non-issue.