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Reformed/Calvinist

Paradox_7
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9/26/2012 4:26:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Just curious, how many Christians here consider themselves Reformed Christians (or Calvinists)?

If you are Christian, and do not hold to this theology, can you provide a reason why? Which particular points of this belief do you disagree with?
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Posts: 2,900
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9/26/2012 4:32:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I don't hold with this theology because I don't even know what it is.

So maybe I do hold with it, but probably not.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
Paradox_7
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9/26/2012 4:48:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/26/2012 4:37:04 PM, stubs wrote:
I hold some Calvinistic views but I do disagree with the notion that we do not have free will.


If so, then why do only some choose God?
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
stubs
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9/26/2012 4:57:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/26/2012 4:48:12 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 9/26/2012 4:37:04 PM, stubs wrote:
I hold some Calvinistic views but I do disagree with the notion that we do not have free will.


If so, then why do only some choose God?

Well I typical really don't like debating these issues since both Calvinists, Armenians, and Catholics are all Christians. However double predestination causes some sever problems. As for your question, I can't always tell you why some choose God. I also can't tell you why some people chose to eat pizza for lunch and some chose to have a sandwich. It's clear that the holy spirit is what moves people, but God gave us the choice to respond negatively or positively to his initiating grace that is open to all.

As for the problems predestination creates one of them is complacency. If we hold to double predestination we really don't have to do anything. I mean those that are going to be saved will be saved regardless of anything we do. Might as well just kick it on the couch because evangelism would serve absolutely no purpose. Thus also being detrimental to the great commission.
Paradox_7
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9/26/2012 5:06:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/26/2012 4:57:24 PM, stubs wrote:
At 9/26/2012 4:48:12 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 9/26/2012 4:37:04 PM, stubs wrote:
I hold some Calvinistic views but I do disagree with the notion that we do not have free will.


If so, then why do only some choose God?

Well I typical really don't like debating these issues since both Calvinists, Armenians, and Catholics are all Christians. However double predestination causes some sever problems. As for your question, I can't always tell you why some choose God. I also can't tell you why some people chose to eat pizza for lunch and some chose to have a sandwich. It's clear that the holy spirit is what moves people, but God gave us the choice to respond negatively or positively to his initiating grace that is open to all.

So, why do some respond negatively instead of positively? I know you have pretty decent knowledge of the bible so this can't be that difficult to answer..

As for the problems predestination creates one of them is complacency. If we hold to double predestination we really don't have to do anything. I mean those that are going to be saved will be saved regardless of anything we do. Might as well just kick it on the couch because evangelism would serve absolutely no purpose. Thus also being detrimental to the great commission.

I can understand that you don't 'like' the doctrine, however, it is overwhelmingly present in the bible. Works never contribute to anything, you should know this.

One of the biggest problems you are going to have, is addressing mans sinful nature. Do you believe in Total Depravity?

How about in Romans 3, when it is very plainly stated that no one seeks God and no one does good. Or in Romans 7 when Paul explains our sin, and that the best even the elect can do, is realize they can't do any good.

If all of our best efforts are as filthy rags, and worthless.. what do you propose a Christian 'must' do in order to 'keep' their salvation?

We've never even had a leg to stand on in the first place, so how is it that we would be some how capable of being worthy by works? Jeremiah says is clearly as well.. the heart is beyond cure; we have to die.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
stubs
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9/26/2012 5:26:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/26/2012 5:06:36 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:

So, why do some respond negatively instead of positively? I know you have pretty decent knowledge of the bible so this can't be that difficult to answer..


I told you I don't always know why. Just as I don't know why some chose to eat pizza for lunch and some chose to eat a sandwich. I don't have a problem not knowing everything. I think God has that on lock.

I can understand that you don't 'like' the doctrine, however, it is overwhelmingly present in the bible. Works never contribute to anything, you should know this.


I never said I didn't like the doctrine. I said it creates a lot of theological problems. Works never contribute to our salvation. Helping out the poor and charitable acts certainly contribute in ways.

One of the biggest problems you are going to have, is addressing mans sinful nature. Do you believe in Total Depravity?


I believe we inherent the consequences of Eve's sin, not the guilt.

How about in Romans 3, when it is very plainly stated that no one seeks God and no one does good. Or in Romans 7 when Paul explains our sin, and that the best even the elect can do, is realize they can't do any good.


Without the holy spirit moving in us which very well may work in anyone who seeks according to Romans one. Psalm 139 also says we are fearfully and wonderfully made. It seems as though you don't hold to the opinion that humans are very wonderfully made.

If all of our best efforts are as filthy rags, and worthless.. what do you propose a Christian 'must' do in order to 'keep' their salvation?


I don't believe you can lose salvation so I don't believe this question applies. If I'm misreading it just let me know.

We've never even had a leg to stand on in the first place, so how is it that we would be some how capable of being worthy by works? Jeremiah says is clearly as well.. the heart is beyond cure; we have to die.

"Concerning the sinfulness of man's heart, and the divine inspection it is always under, Jeremiah 17:9,10. It is folly to trust in man, for he is not only frail, but false and deceitful. We are apt to think that we trust in God, and are entitled to the blessings here promised to those who do so. But this is a thing about which our own hearts deceive us as much as any thing. We think that we trust in God when really we do not, as appears by this, that our hopes and fears rise or fall according as second causes smile or frown.

1. It is true in general. (1.) There is that wickedness in our hearts which we ourselves are not aware of and do not suspect to be there; nay, it is a common mistake among the children of men to think themselves, their own hearts at least, a great deal better than they really are. The heart, the conscience of man, in his corrupt and fallen state, is deceitful above all things. It is subtle and false; it is apt to supplant (so the word properly signifies); it is that from which Jacob had his name, a supplanter. It calls evil good and good evil, puts false colours upon things, and cries peace to those to whom peace does not belong. When men say in their hearts (that is, suffer their hearts to whisper to them) that there is no God, or he does not see, or he will not require, or they shall have peace though they go on; in these, and a thousand similar suggestions the heart is deceitful. It cheats men into their own ruin; and this will be the aggravation of it, that they are self-deceivers, self-destroyers. Herein the heart is desperately wicked; it is deadly, it is desperate. The case is bad indeed, and in a manner deplorable and past relief, if the conscience which should rectify the errors of the other faculties is itself a mother of falsehood and a ring-leader in the delusion. What will become of a man if that in him which should be the candle of the Lord give a false light, if God's deputy in the soul, that is entrusted to support his interests, betrays them? Such is the deceitfulness of the heart that we may truly say, Who can know it? Who can describe how bad the heart is? We cannot know our own hearts, not what they will do in an hour of temptation (Hezekiah did not, Peter did not), not what corrupt dispositions there are in them, nor in how many things they have turned aside; who can understand his errors? Much less can we know the hearts of others, or have any dependence upon them. But, (2.) Whatever wickedness there is in the heart God sees it, and knows it, is perfectly acquainted with it and apprised of it: I the Lord search the heart. This is true of all that is in the heart, all the thoughts of it, the quickest, and those that are most carelessly overlooked by ourselves--all the intents of it, the closest, and those that are most artfully disguised, and industriously concealed from others. Men may be imposed upon, but God cannot. He not only searches the heart with a piercing eye, but he tries the reins, to pass a judgment upon what he discovers, to give every thing its true character and due weight. He tries it, as the gold is tried whether it be standard or no, as the prisoner is tried whether he be guilty or no. And this judgment which he makes of the heart is in order to his passing judgment upon the man; it is to give to every man according to his ways (according to the desert and the tendency of them, life to those that walked in the ways of life, and death to those that persisted in the paths of the destroyer) and according to the fruit of his doings, the effect and influence his doings have had upon others, or according to what is settled by the word of God to be the fruit of men's doings, blessings to the obedient and curses to the disobedient. Note, Therefore God is Judge himself, and he alone, because he, and none besides, knows the hearts of the children of men.

2. It is true especially of all the deceitfulness and wickedness of the heart, all its corrupt devices, desires, and designs. God observes and discerns them; and (which is more than any man can do) he judges of the overt act by the heart. Note, God knows more evil of us than we do of ourselves, which is a good reason why we should not flatter ourselves, but always stand in awe of the judgment of God."

http://www.studylight.org...
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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9/26/2012 6:46:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/26/2012 4:57:24 PM, stubs wrote:

As for the problems predestination creates one of them is complacency. If we hold to double predestination we really don't have to do anything. I mean those that are going to be saved will be saved regardless of anything we do. Might as well just kick it on the couch because evangelism would serve absolutely no purpose. Thus also being detrimental to the great commission.

I'm not a calvinist by any means, way, shape, or form, but I think that's false. God could use evangelism by somebody as the means to bring it about that someone else accepts the Gospel even if it was determined since "before the foundation of the word" that both people would do exactly that.
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jharry
Posts: 4,984
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9/26/2012 7:15:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/26/2012 4:26:37 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Just curious, how many Christians here consider themselves Reformed Christians (or Calvinists)?

If you are Christian, and do not hold to this theology, can you provide a reason why? Which particular points of this belief do you disagree with?

For me Calvinism makes God the author and creator of Sin. The doctrine makes Jesus a liar.

It takes everything in Holy Scripture and throws it out the window. It causes God to be unjust. It would make me free from blame for the sins in my life. All the people I have hurt in flesh and spirit were not hurt by me but by God.

That is my interpretation of the doctrine.

I do not see the interpretation the Calvinists use from scripture. I agree that I am utterly lost, incapable of doing good on my own from me. The good I do without God is for reasons that are not pure. Only with God can good be done through me by Him. Left to my own ways I will not do good, been there done that.

I think it all resides in Trust. Trusting is the chorus of Holy Scripture. Abram trusting in the Lord most of the time but failed to do so and the results were less then positive. He tried to make God's Word come true by his own means. He didn't trust that the Lord would protect him and lied about his wife. The same with King David, Jonah and countless other people detailed in Scripture.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
Paradox_7
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9/26/2012 7:38:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/26/2012 7:15:11 PM, jharry wrote:
At 9/26/2012 4:26:37 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Just curious, how many Christians here consider themselves Reformed Christians (or Calvinists)?

If you are Christian, and do not hold to this theology, can you provide a reason why? Which particular points of this belief do you disagree with?

For me Calvinism makes God the author and creator of Sin. The doctrine makes Jesus a liar.

Care to explain?

It takes everything in Holy Scripture and throws it out the window. It causes God to be unjust. It would make me free from blame for the sins in my life. All the people I have hurt in flesh and spirit were not hurt by me but by God.

I think it's completely the opposite, the reformed theology holds man soley to blame for his sin. I think what you are doing, is taking what you believe to be just and then imputing it to your understanding of God, instead of viewing what God does as just, and derriving you understanding of justice from Him.

That is my interpretation of the doctrine.

I do not see the interpretation the Calvinists use from scripture. I agree that I am utterly lost, incapable of doing good on my own from me. The good I do without God is for reasons that are not pure. Only with God can good be done through me by Him. Left to my own ways I will not do good, been there done that.

If you believe in total depravity, then there is nothing in scripture that would make sense, but calvinism. What you just described is the foundation of reformed theology, so I'm not sure you even understand what calvinism is.

I think it all resides in Trust. Trusting is the chorus of Holy Scripture. Abram trusting in the Lord most of the time but failed to do so and the results were less then positive. He tried to make God's Word come true by his own means. He didn't trust that the Lord would protect him and lied about his wife. The same with King David, Jonah and countless other people detailed in Scripture.


We agree here completely. You sound like a calvinist.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
jharry
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9/26/2012 7:42:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/26/2012 7:38:42 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 9/26/2012 7:15:11 PM, jharry wrote:
At 9/26/2012 4:26:37 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Just curious, how many Christians here consider themselves Reformed Christians (or Calvinists)?

If you are Christian, and do not hold to this theology, can you provide a reason why? Which particular points of this belief do you disagree with?

For me Calvinism makes God the author and creator of Sin. The doctrine makes Jesus a liar.

Care to explain?

If I do not sin by my own free will then I have not sinned.

It takes everything in Holy Scripture and throws it out the window. It causes God to be unjust. It would make me free from blame for the sins in my life. All the people I have hurt in flesh and spirit were not hurt by me but by God.

I think it's completely the opposite, the reformed theology holds man soley to blame for his sin. I think what you are doing, is taking what you believe to be just and then imputing it to your understanding of God, instead of viewing what God does as just, and derriving you understanding of justice from Him.

That is my interpretation of the doctrine.

I do not see the interpretation the Calvinists use from scripture. I agree that I am utterly lost, incapable of doing good on my own from me. The good I do without God is for reasons that are not pure. Only with God can good be done through me by Him. Left to my own ways I will not do good, been there done that.

If you believe in total depravity, then there is nothing in scripture that would make sense, but calvinism. What you just described is the foundation of reformed theology, so I'm not sure you even understand what calvinism is.

I think it all resides in Trust. Trusting is the chorus of Holy Scripture. Abram trusting in the Lord most of the time but failed to do so and the results were less then positive. He tried to make God's Word come true by his own means. He didn't trust that the Lord would protect him and lied about his wife. The same with King David, Jonah and countless other people detailed in Scripture.


We agree here completely. You sound like a calvinist.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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9/26/2012 7:49:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/26/2012 4:26:37 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Just curious, how many Christians here consider themselves Reformed Christians (or Calvinists)?

If you are Christian, and do not hold to this theology, can you provide a reason why? Which particular points of this belief do you disagree with?

I do not hold any Calvinistic beliefs, from total depravity to the impossibility of apostasy, although I will buy into the notion that (1) if someone clings to the first 2-3 tenets, then (2) rejection of the final 2-3 become more difficult.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
annanicole
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9/26/2012 7:50:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/26/2012 4:26:37 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Just curious, how many Christians here consider themselves Reformed Christians (or Calvinists)?

If you are Christian, and do not hold to this theology, can you provide a reason why? Which particular points of this belief do you disagree with?

Well, wait. Calvin did say that anything not expressed commanded by God, or permitted by approved example, or implied necessarily ... is thus implicitly forbidden. There is more Calvinism in me concerning that statement than the rest of his Institutes combined.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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9/26/2012 7:52:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/26/2012 7:42:45 PM, jharry wrote:
At 9/26/2012 7:38:42 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
For me Calvinism makes God the author and creator of Sin. The doctrine makes Jesus a liar.

Care to explain?

If I do not sin by my own free will then I have not sinned.

Well then we nearly agree.

The only problem, is that while you do obviously have a will, it isn't free. If it was free, then you would be asserting that we are capable of righteous acts in and of ourselves-- which you just said we don't have the ability to do.

How about you address these passages and reconcile 'free-will'

Romans 3
10 As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."

Romans 7
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do---this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

Romans 9
11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad"in order that God"s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls"she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God"s mercy....

19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?" 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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9/26/2012 7:54:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/26/2012 7:50:38 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 9/26/2012 4:26:37 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Just curious, how many Christians here consider themselves Reformed Christians (or Calvinists)?

If you are Christian, and do not hold to this theology, can you provide a reason why? Which particular points of this belief do you disagree with?

Well, wait. Calvin did say that anything not expressed commanded by God, or permitted by approved example, or implied necessarily ... is thus implicitly forbidden. There is more Calvinism in me concerning that statement than the rest of his Institutes combined.


Well, tbh, I could care less what Calvin has to say.. The only reason i even you the label 'Calvinist' is because it been f*ckin branded on anyone who holds to the TULIP; which Calvin did not come up with.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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9/26/2012 7:59:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/26/2012 7:54:24 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 9/26/2012 7:50:38 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 9/26/2012 4:26:37 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Just curious, how many Christians here consider themselves Reformed Christians (or Calvinists)?

If you are Christian, and do not hold to this theology, can you provide a reason why? Which particular points of this belief do you disagree with?

Well, wait. Calvin did say that anything not expressed commanded by God, or permitted by approved example, or implied necessarily ... is thus implicitly forbidden. There is more Calvinism in me concerning that statement than the rest of his Institutes combined.


Well, tbh, I could care less what Calvin has to say.. The only reason i even you the label 'Calvinist' is because it been f*ckin branded on anyone who holds to the TULIP; which Calvin did not come up with.

Haha ... well, I could care less, too. And Calvin may not have "come up" with TULIP, but he certainly expounded upon the tenets. Of course, he also contradicted himself as did Luther and Wesley and all the rest.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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9/26/2012 8:10:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/26/2012 7:59:02 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 9/26/2012 7:54:24 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 9/26/2012 7:50:38 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 9/26/2012 4:26:37 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Just curious, how many Christians here consider themselves Reformed Christians (or Calvinists)?

If you are Christian, and do not hold to this theology, can you provide a reason why? Which particular points of this belief do you disagree with?

Well, wait. Calvin did say that anything not expressed commanded by God, or permitted by approved example, or implied necessarily ... is thus implicitly forbidden. There is more Calvinism in me concerning that statement than the rest of his Institutes combined.


Well, tbh, I could care less what Calvin has to say.. The only reason i even you the label 'Calvinist' is because it been f*ckin branded on anyone who holds to the TULIP; which Calvin did not come up with.

Haha ... well, I could care less, too. And Calvin may not have "come up" with TULIP, but he certainly expounded upon the tenets. Of course, he also contradicted himself as did Luther and Wesley and all the rest.


lol, Anna.. everytime we do this, I post mountains of scriptures that support my position, and you blatantly ignore them, and posit your own..

Then i expound on yours (while you continually ignore mine), easily reconcile them with the reformed theology, and you then last stand it with shinanigans about 'personal' understanding and completely leave scripture behind..

For example, that entire "faith - Pistis/Pisteus" debacle.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Paradox_7
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9/26/2012 8:15:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/26/2012 4:32:21 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
I don't hold with this theology because I don't even know what it is.

So maybe I do hold with it, but probably not.


If you are R. Catholic, then you most assuredly do not.. lol

Unless you do, which would make you a Reformed Christian, and no longer a RC; this would be awesome!.. lol
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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9/26/2012 8:19:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/26/2012 7:52:03 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 9/26/2012 7:42:45 PM, jharry wrote:
At 9/26/2012 7:38:42 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
For me Calvinism makes God the author and creator of Sin. The doctrine makes Jesus a liar.

Care to explain?

If I do not sin by my own free will then I have not sinned.

Well then we nearly agree.

The only problem, is that while you do obviously have a will, it isn't free. If it was free, then you would be asserting that we are capable of righteous acts in and of ourselves-- which you just said we don't have the ability to do.

How about you address these passages and reconcile 'free-will'

I look at them in context.

Romans 3
10 As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."

St. Paul was explaining the there is no difference between Jew and Gentile. He was addressing a specific topic and it was not free will.

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God"s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Righteousness Through Faith

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through the shedding of his blood"to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished" 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Calvinism takes Romans 3 out of context and tries to impose a message that was never intended.

Romans 7
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do---this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

Again, St. Paul was addressing the Law of Moses. He was addressing the same specific argument from the Jews.

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God"s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God"s law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin.

God has saved us from the Law by death in Jesus Christ. And if you read about Jesus Christ we are commanded to follow Him and follow His commands. We either choose to follow or walk away. The verses you posted above having nothing to do with this.

Romans 9
11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad"in order that God"s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls"she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God"s mercy....

Again, the verses you have nothing to do with what Calvinism teaches. God placed a stone in our path, and some stumble over it but others do not. That in no way means He forces us to stumble or pas it by.

19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?" 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame."[m]

Again, the verses you have nothing to do with what Calvinism teaches. God placed a stone in the path of Jews, and some stumble over it but others do not. That in no way means He forces us to stumble or pass it by.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
Paradox_7
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9/26/2012 8:40:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/26/2012 8:19:05 PM, jharry wrote:
At 9/26/2012 7:52:03 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
I look at them in context.

That's funny because so do I, and the message is plain.

Romans 3
10 As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."

St. Paul was explaining the there is no difference between Jew and Gentile. He was addressing a specific topic and it was not free will.

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God"s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Righteousness Through Faith

Lol, I completely agree that righteousness is through faith, 100%. What you seem to not understand, is that if no one seeks God, then why is that there are Christians? No one chose of their own free will to 'accept' Christ; he chose them:

John 15:16
16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit"fruit that will last"and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

How is it that we have free-will, when Christ clearly says that HE chose, not us.

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through the shedding of his blood"to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished" 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Calvinism takes Romans 3 out of context and tries to impose a message that was never intended.

No, it doesn't.. You haven't debunked a single thing, you actually reinforced it. What is out of context with Romans 3? Are you saying that man does seek God? or that there are some who do good? despite the clear passage stating the not even one does good?

Romans 7
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do---this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

Again, St. Paul was addressing the Law of Moses. He was addressing the same specific argument from the Jews.

uhh, no sh*t? But it's pretty obvious that he is saying that he doesn't do good, even though he wants to; how is that free-will?

21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God"s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God"s law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin.

God has saved us from the Law by death in Jesus Christ. And if you read about Jesus Christ we are commanded to follow Him and follow His commands. We either choose to follow or walk away. The verses you posted above having nothing to do with this.

And how do we follow Christ my friend? BY FAITH. If you have Faith, you are following Christ, and you are in the process of sanctification. But, you just contradicted Christ, (above) he says that HE chose.. so which is it?

And, the passages all have to do with one another. If Paul is saying he can't do good, even though he knows he should, then his will isn't free; and this is supported by Romans 3 that clearly states that no one does good!

Romans 9
11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad"in order that God"s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls"she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God"s mercy....

Again, the verses you have nothing to do with what Calvinism teaches. God placed a stone in our path, and some stumble over it but others do not. That in no way means He forces us to stumble or pas it by.

Lol, once again, you seem to have no idea what Calvinism teaches, beacuse Romans 9 is one of calvinisms power-house verses. You basically just contradicted the passage. It says that his election(salvation) is by his mercy and not our efforts or DESIRE-- meaning none of us even want to be saved; he forces his elect into salvtion; Irresistable Grace.

19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?" 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame."[m]

Again, the verses you have nothing to do with what Calvinism teaches. God placed a stone in the path of Jews, and some stumble over it but others do not. That in no way means He forces us to stumble or pass it by.

You got some serious reading to do buddy. Do you know why those who believe won't stumble? because no one can remove us from the love of God that is through Christ. God seeks man, obtains him, and keeps him-- against his sinful will.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
jharry
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9/26/2012 8:56:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Parodox, I can't reply to your post. It is over 8000 characters so some how all of your posts are not there.

As a Catholic I can agree with a lot of what Calvinism teaches, but not all of it.

Calvinism contradicts the whole of Holy Scripture because it only resides in a few verses and is forced to ignore others.

Acts 17:24-27

24 "The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.

So was St. Paul lying? In which portion of Holy Scripture was he lying? If you will give me a few days I will put together a proper response. I'm horrible with putting stuff like this together and it takes me a while. I hope you can have patience.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
jharry
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9/26/2012 8:59:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Paradox "Lol, once again, you seem to have no idea what Calvinism teaches, beacuse Romans 9 is one of calvinisms power-house verses. You basically just contradicted the passage. It says that his election(salvation) is by his mercy and not our efforts or DESIRE-- meaning none of us even want to be saved; he forces his elect into salvtion; Irresistable Grace."

Acts 7:51 Stephen tells the Sanhedrin, "You always resist the Holy Spirit!"

??????????????? How can it be resisted?
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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9/26/2012 9:01:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/26/2012 8:59:26 PM, jharry wrote:
Paradox "Lol, once again, you seem to have no idea what Calvinism teaches, beacuse Romans 9 is one of calvinisms power-house verses. You basically just contradicted the passage. It says that his election(salvation) is by his mercy and not our efforts or DESIRE-- meaning none of us even want to be saved; he forces his elect into salvtion; Irresistable Grace."

Acts 7:51 Stephen tells the Sanhedrin, "You always resist the Holy Spirit!"


??????????????? How can it be resisted?

I know, irresistable grace seems to mean what it says, but it does not.

Of course we resist the holy spirit, but irresistable grace posits that the holy spirit overcomes the resistance of our will.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Paradox_7
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9/26/2012 9:02:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/26/2012 8:56:22 PM, jharry wrote:
Parodox, I can't reply to your post. It is over 8000 characters so some how all of your posts are not there.

As a Catholic I can agree with a lot of what Calvinism teaches, but not all of it.

Calvinism contradicts the whole of Holy Scripture because it only resides in a few verses and is forced to ignore others.

Acts 17:24-27

24 "The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.

So was St. Paul lying? In which portion of Holy Scripture was he lying? If you will give me a few days I will put together a proper response. I'm horrible with putting stuff like this together and it takes me a while. I hope you can have patience.


No, there is no problem here..
He did do such so we would seek him, but we did not.

I'm leaving work right now, so I'll post more later.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
jharry
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9/26/2012 9:05:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Paradox
"Lol, I completely agree that righteousness is through faith, 100%. What you seem to not understand, is that if no one seeks God, then why is that there are Christians? No one chose of their own free will to 'accept' Christ; he chose them:

John 15:16
16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit"fruit that will last"and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

How is it that we have free-will, when Christ clearly says that HE chose, not us."

I see this a lot from Protestants. He was speaking to the Apostles. And He says "IF" a lot. This does not look like Calvinism to me, when you put the single verse in context of the rest.

9 "As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father"s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one"s life for one"s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master"s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit"fruit that will last"and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
jharry
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9/26/2012 9:54:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/26/2012 9:02:28 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 9/26/2012 8:56:22 PM, jharry wrote:
Parodox, I can't reply to your post. It is over 8000 characters so some how all of your posts are not there.

As a Catholic I can agree with a lot of what Calvinism teaches, but not all of it.

Calvinism contradicts the whole of Holy Scripture because it only resides in a few verses and is forced to ignore others.

Acts 17:24-27

24 "The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.

So was St. Paul lying? In which portion of Holy Scripture was he lying? If you will give me a few days I will put together a proper response. I'm horrible with putting stuff like this together and it takes me a while. I hope you can have patience.


No, there is no problem here..
He did do such so we would seek him, but we did not.

I'm leaving work right now, so I'll post more later.

So He did something that He knew no one would do? That makes God appear confused and foolish.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
jharry
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9/26/2012 10:01:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/26/2012 9:01:07 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 9/26/2012 8:59:26 PM, jharry wrote:
Paradox "Lol, once again, you seem to have no idea what Calvinism teaches, beacuse Romans 9 is one of calvinisms power-house verses. You basically just contradicted the passage. It says that his election(salvation) is by his mercy and not our efforts or DESIRE-- meaning none of us even want to be saved; he forces his elect into salvtion; Irresistable Grace."

Acts 7:51 Stephen tells the Sanhedrin, "You always resist the Holy Spirit!"


??????????????? How can it be resisted?

I know, irresistable grace seems to mean what it says, but it does not.

Of course we resist the holy spirit, but irresistable grace posits that the holy spirit overcomes the resistance of our will.

I think this is where we split. Did God give these people sufficient Grace (Holy Spirit) to follow Him?
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
jharry
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9/26/2012 10:07:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Parodox "uhh, no sh*t? But it's pretty obvious that he is saying that he doesn't do good, even though he wants to; how is that free-will?"

I don't want to do a of of things but I still do. I want to do a lot of things but I don't. St. Paul was describing the human condition, and how the Law of Moses only tells us t is sin in that Covenant. It shows that we can not be Righteous by the Law because can not perfectly follow the Law. That's all he is saying here.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
stubs
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9/26/2012 10:15:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/26/2012 6:46:24 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 9/26/2012 4:57:24 PM, stubs wrote:

As for the problems predestination creates one of them is complacency. If we hold to double predestination we really don't have to do anything. I mean those that are going to be saved will be saved regardless of anything we do. Might as well just kick it on the couch because evangelism would serve absolutely no purpose. Thus also being detrimental to the great commission.

I'm not a calvinist by any means, way, shape, or form, but I think that's false. God could use evangelism by somebody as the means to bring it about that someone else accepts the Gospel even if it was determined since "before the foundation of the word" that both people would do exactly that.

But if they were predestined to go to heaven then it would happen regardless if anyone evangelized.
jharry
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9/26/2012 10:30:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Parodox
"You got some serious reading to do buddy. Do you know why those who believe won't stumble? because no one can remove us from the love of God that is through Christ. God seeks man, obtains him, and keeps him-- against his sinful will."

First, your tone seems highly arrogant. Do all things in LOVE my friend.

Second, I have read. It is funny you mention that. I have been to dozens of denominations and I ask for evidence that they hold the Truth. All of them turned to a small pamphlet containing anywhere from a dozen to thirty verses supporting their faith. I asked a Priest for his evidence and he handed me his Bible, he said "every letter" is why I am here.

From OT to Jesus Holy Scripture has always shown that mans freedom to choose and obey the will of God for salvation is absolutely central.

I am with Joshua when he said "choose this day whom you will serve......but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."

I also once had great thirst and believe Jesus when he said "if any man thirst, let him come to me, and drink."

Even in the very verses Calvinists hold up as evidence of their faith I see fraud.

Romans 9:19

Jeremiah 18: 6-10

5 Then the word of the Lord came to me. 6 He said, "Can I not do with you, Israel, as this potter does?" declares the Lord. "Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, Israel. 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.

We are all apart of God's predestined plan, but that does not mean we have no free will.

As I said before, I can agree with a lot of what Calvinism teaches. But not all of it. This is clear because what is Calvinism? An attempt to build something other the Church and Her teachings. Luther did the same. Both take the seeds of Truth vested in the Church and then cut out the parts they do not like, add the parts that they want so they can be excused from remaining in the Church Christ founded and tends to daily.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen