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In the Beginning......what?

Samuelstinger91
Posts: 46
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9/27/2012 12:22:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I have many problems with catholicism, but this is one of my main ones. Catholics say "There HAS to be a start for everything" To go against evolution. But then when people ask "then what started God?" they say "oh, well it was always there".

So, nothign can start without something starting it, except God. He "Was always there". That is so stupid, and makes absolutely no sense.

Can someone make this make sense at all?
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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9/27/2012 12:29:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/27/2012 12:22:35 PM, Samuelstinger91 wrote:
I have many problems with catholicism, but this is one of my main ones. Catholics say "There HAS to be a start for everything" To go against evolution. But then when people ask "then what started God?" they say "oh, well it was always there".

So, nothign can start without something starting it, except God. He "Was always there". That is so stupid, and makes absolutely no sense.

Can someone make this make sense at all?

Sure, all created things have a created beginning. God is not created and thus has the attribute of aseity. Simply put, that means that His existence is not contingent on anything. Created things find their existence is contingent on God. toodles
Samuelstinger91
Posts: 46
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9/27/2012 12:33:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/27/2012 12:29:38 PM, joneszj wrote:
Sure, all created things have a created beginning. God is not created and thus has the attribute of aseity. Simply put, that means that His existence is not contingent on anything. Created things find their existence is contingent on God. toodles

But what was there before God? What was the universe? God couldn't create himself out of nothing. If there is an infinite amount of nothingness, then what can create itself when nothing is there? That is like a fish appearing right next to me without any explenation for it. He just appeared out of himself. That is completely impossible and makes no sense still.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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9/27/2012 12:35:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/27/2012 12:22:35 PM, Samuelstinger91 wrote:
Can someone make this make sense at all?
If there is a cause of a cause (ad infinitum), then you're going in circles. There must have been a first cause, and for this cause to not have been caused by anything else, it must be eternal, timeless, etc. This logic can only be applied to God.
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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9/27/2012 12:46:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/27/2012 12:33:12 PM, Samuelstinger91 wrote:
At 9/27/2012 12:29:38 PM, joneszj wrote:
Sure, all created things have a created beginning. God is not created and thus has the attribute of aseity. Simply put, that means that His existence is not contingent on anything. Created things find their existence is contingent on God. toodles

But what was there before God?

Trick question.

What was the universe?

Nothing

God couldn't create himself out of nothing. If there is an infinite amount of nothingness, then what can create itself when nothing is there?

there was a nothingness in regards to the universe- not God. God was never created.

That is like a fish appearing right next to me without any explenation for it. He just appeared out of himself. That is completely impossible and makes no sense still.

God did not 'just appear'. He has always existed. Aseity. In any other context it would be an infinite regressive fallacy.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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9/27/2012 12:47:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Different modal claims. The world = contingent existence. God = necessary existence. What theists are saying here is that the existence of a contingent set like the universe necessitates a necessarily existent being and that's what we cal God. You're acting like saying God has no beginning is some post hoc explanation when it's really not. Now whether the argument is sound is another thing but your criticism is way off.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
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: I disagree.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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9/27/2012 1:17:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/27/2012 12:22:35 PM, Samuelstinger91 wrote:
I have many problems with catholicism, but this is one of my main ones. Catholics say "There HAS to be a start for everything" To go against evolution. But then when people ask "then what started God?" they say "oh, well it was always there".

So, nothign can start without something starting it, except God. He "Was always there". That is so stupid, and makes absolutely no sense.

Can someone make this make sense at all?

You just have to accept the fact that some entity was the first cause of everything, and everything resulted from that first entity. It may not make sense that God has always existed, but that's the only possibility. An infinite regress of caused causes is illogical and invalid, so there has to be a first, uncaused cause. We call that first uncaused cause God.
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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9/27/2012 1:21:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/27/2012 1:17:20 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 9/27/2012 12:22:35 PM, Samuelstinger91 wrote:
I have many problems with catholicism, but this is one of my main ones. Catholics say "There HAS to be a start for everything" To go against evolution. But then when people ask "then what started God?" they say "oh, well it was always there".

So, nothign can start without something starting it, except God. He "Was always there". That is so stupid, and makes absolutely no sense.

Can someone make this make sense at all?

You just have to accept the fact that some entity was the first cause of everything, and everything resulted from that first entity. It may not make sense that God has always existed, but that's the only possibility. An infinite regress of caused causes is illogical and invalid, so there has to be a first, uncaused cause. We call that first uncaused cause God.

It's kind of easy for me to accept this, in the modal version. I just don't see where the other attributes like omnibenevolence or interaction in the world come from. That's where revelation comes in I suppose and it's the reason I've never moved farther than weak Deism.
: At 9/29/2014 10:55:59 AM, imabench wrote:
: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
: :
: : DDO should discredit support of sexual violence at any time and in every way.
:
: I disagree.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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9/27/2012 4:37:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/27/2012 1:17:20 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 9/27/2012 12:22:35 PM, Samuelstinger91 wrote:
I have many problems with catholicism, but this is one of my main ones. Catholics say "There HAS to be a start for everything" To go against evolution. But then when people ask "then what started God?" they say "oh, well it was always there".

So, nothign can start without something starting it, except God. He "Was always there". That is so stupid, and makes absolutely no sense.

Can someone make this make sense at all?

You just have to accept the fact that some entity was the first cause of everything

Actually, this is incoherent. "Things" and "entities" are the same thing. You basically just claimed that something was the first cause of everything. Also, If one rejects the notion that causality applies without a sufficient cause present in the equation, then it's very reasonable to not accept the first premise of the Kalam Cosmological Argument.

and everything resulted from that first entity. It may not make sense that God has always existed, but that's the only possibility. An infinite regress of caused causes is illogical and invalid, so there has to be a first, uncaused cause. We call that first uncaused cause God.

No. Even if the universe did have a cause, this doesn't mean that any intelligence or personal entity was responsible. Something could be timeless, space-less, immaterial and not be God at all. Unless you are just slapping the label "God" on whatever this imaginary cause would be...However, this conception of God is rather useless.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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9/27/2012 10:08:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/27/2012 4:37:20 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 9/27/2012 1:17:20 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 9/27/2012 12:22:35 PM, Samuelstinger91 wrote:
I have many problems with catholicism, but this is one of my main ones. Catholics say "There HAS to be a start for everything" To go against evolution. But then when people ask "then what started God?" they say "oh, well it was always there".

So, nothign can start without something starting it, except God. He "Was always there". That is so stupid, and makes absolutely no sense.

Can someone make this make sense at all?

You just have to accept the fact that some entity was the first cause of everything

Actually, this is incoherent. "Things" and "entities" are the same thing. You basically just claimed that something was the first cause of everything. Also, If one rejects the notion that causality applies without a sufficient cause present in the equation, then it's very reasonable to not accept the first premise of the Kalam Cosmological Argument.

And if one rejects the notion that an entire universe must have had a cause, then one is being even sillier than one who attributes the creation to an all powerful God.

and everything resulted from that first entity. It may not make sense that God has always existed, but that's the only possibility. An infinite regress of caused causes is illogical and invalid, so there has to be a first, uncaused cause. We call that first uncaused cause God.

No. Even if the universe did have a cause, this doesn't mean that any intelligence or personal entity was responsible. Something could be timeless, space-less, immaterial and not be God at all. Unless you are just slapping the label "God" on whatever this imaginary cause would be...However, this conception of God is rather useless.

It "could be", but there's no more scientific evidence to support that than there is to support my theory.
Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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9/28/2012 1:21:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/27/2012 12:22:35 PM, Samuelstinger91 wrote:
I have many problems with catholicism, but this is one of my main ones. Catholics say "There HAS to be a start for everything" To go against evolution. But then when people ask "then what started God?" they say "oh, well it was always there".

So, nothign can start without something starting it, except God. He "Was always there". That is so stupid, and makes absolutely no sense.

Can someone make this make sense at all?

The Catholic Church conceded evolution was true 62 years ago. Saying there is a start to the Universe, and therefore requires a creator deity, is a philosophical argument for the existence of God in the realm of cosmology, not evolution.
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johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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9/28/2012 1:33:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/27/2012 12:22:35 PM, Samuelstinger91 wrote:
I have many problems with catholicism, but this is one of my main ones. Catholics say "There HAS to be a start for everything" To go against evolution. But then when people ask "then what started God?" they say "oh, well it was always there".

So, nothign can start without something starting it, except God. He "Was always there". That is so stupid, and makes absolutely no sense.

Can someone make this make sense at all?

They say that everything that begins to exist must have a cause. By definition, God never, "began" to exist. He always was, is, and shall be. And Catholic that says that everything must have a beginning do not have a grasp on their theology.

In short, the position that everything must have a cause is a strawman.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
johnnyboy54
Posts: 6,362
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9/28/2012 1:34:30 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/27/2012 12:47:52 PM, socialpinko wrote:
Different modal claims. The world = contingent existence. God = necessary existence. What theists are saying here is that the existence of a contingent set like the universe necessitates a necessarily existent being and that's what we cal God. You're acting like saying God has no beginning is some post hoc explanation when it's really not. Now whether the argument is sound is another thing but your criticism is way off.

That was a perfect explanation.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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9/28/2012 2:54:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
These self-acclaimed Story book jebus believers claim that Story book John 1:1 states that " in the beginning was the Word . . . . " & thereby miraculously that Word is somehow referring to Story book jebus = Story book god?

That word "beginning"; immediately disqualifies the one (falsely) described as "the Word" (i.e. Story book jebus) as also being Story book god. Why? Because these self-acclaimed believers also claim their god didn't have a beginning! cf. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou [art] God. (Psalm 90:2) KJV Story book
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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9/28/2012 1:42:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/27/2012 10:08:01 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 9/27/2012 4:37:20 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 9/27/2012 1:17:20 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 9/27/2012 12:22:35 PM, Samuelstinger91 wrote:
I have many problems with catholicism, but this is one of my main ones. Catholics say "There HAS to be a start for everything" To go against evolution. But then when people ask "then what started God?" they say "oh, well it was always there".

So, nothign can start without something starting it, except God. He "Was always there". That is so stupid, and makes absolutely no sense.

Can someone make this make sense at all?

You just have to accept the fact that some entity was the first cause of everything

Actually, this is incoherent. "Things" and "entities" are the same thing. You basically just claimed that something was the first cause of everything. Also, If one rejects the notion that causality applies without a sufficient cause present in the equation, then it's very reasonable to not accept the first premise of the Kalam Cosmological Argument.

And if one rejects the notion that an entire universe must have had a cause, then one is being even sillier than one who attributes the creation to an all powerful God.

Why, because you say so? lol Also, you aren't very good at reading... I already explained that your assertion all depends on how you define causality. Are you going with Aristotelian causality? Leibnizian causality? Can causality be applied without a sufficient cause? You just using the word "cause" doesn't mean much into you group it into a certain philosophical umbrella.

and everything resulted from that first entity. It may not make sense that God has always existed, but that's the only possibility. An infinite regress of caused causes is illogical and invalid, so there has to be a first, uncaused cause. We call that first uncaused cause God.

No. Even if the universe did have a cause, this doesn't mean that any intelligence or personal entity was responsible. Something could be timeless, space-less, immaterial and not be God at all. Unless you are just slapping the label "God" on whatever this imaginary cause would be...However, this conception of God is rather useless.

It "could be", but there's no more scientific evidence to support that than there is to support my theory.

Exactly. "I don't know" is the only honest answer.
Archistrategos
Posts: 602
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9/28/2012 3:50:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/27/2012 12:22:35 PM, Samuelstinger91 wrote:
I have many problems with catholicism, but this is one of my main ones. Catholics say "There HAS to be a start for everything" To go against evolution. But then when people ask "then what started God?" they say "oh, well it was always there".

So, nothign can start without something starting it, except God. He "Was always there". That is so stupid, and makes absolutely no sense.

Can someone make this make sense at all?

Yes I can.

Before the Beginning was God

Before there was materiality their was energy and pattern, it has not gone anywhere. The energy turned into mater and the pattern is still patterning.

The origin of a universe is a reverse black hole which forms when omnipresent light is pulled apart by a willful being (God). This OP light is to the Being as the quantum Planck field is to us. OP light substance is like a infinite plasmic fluid light. Inside a universe it is as a crystal matrice and it's called the vector equilibrium, it the shape of a 3d snowflake, the "waters"
This is "dark energy".

A ceiling (sphere) and floor (point) of OP light is formed and in-between is the frozen in place vibrating light or sea of glass or waters. This is the quantum field at the smallest scale of things.
This is why light behaves as both a particle and a wave, an out-flux (spherical) manifests as wave information, an influx manifests as a particle. What is fluxing in and out is the spherical universal membrane and the OP light beyond.

Light unfolds further inside the sphere forming 7 flows (for the 7 colors/sounds). 1:The sphere ceiling itself is the first flow, 2: the primary torus is a second encompassing 2 vectors (central column axis) and 7 vectors of light flow as shape of the torus expands. 3: The stabilized axis allows for a wheel to be spun (3 vector flow) And the wheel divides the torus into two halves which counter balance each other and each hemisphere mirrors each others flows manifesting two nested inner toroids each for a total 4: toroids inside a primary torus divided by a wheel, inside a sphere all surrounding a point.
This is the God particle.

These are also Times Arrows as shape flows of electro-crystaline resonant flow (still coming up with proper terms) of OP light substance. They provide directionality, counter balance, seasonality and accumulation. Everything needed for life. The next fractal implosion of OP light is a galaxy...everything need to make a Man.

Accumulation is the final step as light has unfold all its qualities and precipitates and condenses into matter and anti-matter on either side of the wheel.

Galaxies are individual drops of that condensate on the matter side and they each are a "big bang" when they are born. Look up the "End of Greatness". The greatest astronomical scale of the observable (matter) "universe" of 80 billion or so galaxies, and that's just what we can currently look out and see.

Galactic cores also directly incorporate, along a new vector, all the shape relationships of the universal God particle prior to it.

These form as rolling beams of tubular "gravi-magnetic light" that issue from a galactic center like spokes on a wheel. They stir the interstellar medium of stars and planets and are the cause of the temporary formations of the spiral arms (galaxies evolve too). "Churning the milky ocean for the elixir of immortality"
This is "dark matter"

Time and the very atomic constants are subject to the beam's "overstrumming" and angular momentum (we are currently within the latter part of one of these beams) and different naturally occurring valency division like the colors of light in asymmetric, tubular, laminar arrangement (do to directionality of travel). And the final upward rolling wall of the gravi-optic tube is traveling and re-braiding together the qualities of light speed, patterning, movement and substance.
This is judgment Day.

Because of the bend of light over such long distances, the beams spiral outwards and go perpendicular-ish their origins and the wave front will appear to come from the galactic center.

This has happened before and will happen again as the spoked wheel of the galaxy turns.

So to recap, the beams issuing from a condensed galaxy burst forth mater from the nested Planck vibratory field. Compress the cooled hydrogen into stars as they roll in, blow them up (and grow stabilized ones) when they roll out. Pattern saturated nebular clouds in to DNA molecules, directly create all life, are the conduits for self awareness in BOTH DIRECTIONS, and harvest the resultant consciousness as they roll out, grow planets (sudden mountain ranges and oceanic displacement) and cause stars to grow (blows of their outer cover, so the earth is not only grown but blasted with cosmic dust from the solar shockwave, baked, and flash frozen as now the sun is a much cooler star.)

Inside the tube are several valency divisions like colors in a rainbow and EM nullzone gaps between the colors....Pauses in the over current, pauses in the heavens...a drastic darkening of the Sun as the over-current "shuts off" for a space of time. This has happened before and will happen again. There was one at Noahs flood (the vibratory rate of everything changed to faster and the atmosphere could not longer hold the amount of water it could before, also the reason for the rainbow after and not before) There was one at the crucifixion, and there is another one coming at the opening of the 7th seal. ...This is the reason for all prophesy and being able to see forwards and backwards in time because it has a real structure. Mainly having to do with the angular momentum of the rolling over beam. The reason why the patriarchs lived for hundreds of years is because they were in the red/orange valence and the atomic decay rate was much slower.

This is the reason for all prophesy and being able to see forwards and backwards in time.

God saves every time because the whole thing is alive and a willful ordered process of a living consciousness. The One True Living God.