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Childish God

Sidewalker
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9/27/2012 1:56:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I think it"s common for young children to see the Bible as a story book and to have a childish understanding of God as an invisible man in the sky that grants wishes to those who pray. Of course, as children age and mature their conception of God and their understanding of faith develops and matures beyond such childish ways of understanding things.

But apparently, that isn"t always the case. There seems to be a select group of very vocal Atheists whose conception of God and faith did not mature as they got older and who spend a lot of time ranting about how much more intelligent, rational, and mature they are than people of faith because they now reject this childish idea of God. They apparently don"t understand that no adult Theist believes in the God they don"t believe in and yet, they really seem thrilled with themselves for their intellectual achievement It just seems that they are using the faith discussion to brag about how they are all grown up now and so they don"t believe in God anymore, and when I read those posts I can"t help recall the image of a little child I saw on vacation a few years back who was clinging to the wall of the hotel pool next to the three foot sign yelling "Mommy, mommy, look at me, I"m in the deep end just like a grown up". I"m sorry, but this type of Atheism just doesn"t appear to be all that grown up to me, and clinging to such childish ideas about God and faith isn"t what I"d call "deep".

What do you think?
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Posts: 2,900
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9/27/2012 2:00:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Thought-provoking...
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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9/27/2012 3:08:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The God I don't believe in is the one you can pray to, the one that grants miracles, the one who has any knowable characteristics and most importantly of all, the one that decides whether people deserve heaven or hell.... Unless these are not attributes of your God, in which case you have no right to call yourself a christian, you need to can it with this vacuous rhetoric. All your post has demonstrated is how little you know of the sophistication behind new atheism.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Sidewalker
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9/27/2012 3:32:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/27/2012 1:58:50 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
You just summed up one of my biggest pet peeves about atheists.

You're just trying to make me forget the turkey bacon thing.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Sidewalker
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9/27/2012 3:35:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/27/2012 3:08:15 PM, 000ike wrote:
The God I don't believe in is the one you can pray to, the one that grants miracles, the one who has any knowable characteristics and most importantly of all, the one that decides whether people deserve heaven or hell.... Unless these are not attributes of your God, in which case you have no right to call yourself a christian, you need to can it with this vacuous rhetoric. All your post has demonstrated is how little you know of the sophistication behind new atheism.

Mommy Mommy, look at Ike, he's in the deep end like an adult.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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9/27/2012 3:39:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/27/2012 3:08:15 PM, 000ike wrote:
The God I don't believe in is the one you can pray to, the one that grants miracles, the one who has any knowable characteristics and most importantly of all, the one that decides whether people deserve heaven or hell.... Unless these are not attributes of your God, in which case you have no right to call yourself a christian, you need to can it with this vacuous rhetoric. All your post has demonstrated is how little you know of the sophistication behind new atheism.

Sidewalker destroyed.

Atheists have written entire books about the characteristics of God from a religious and philosophical description. And you think they base their entire argument based on childhood conceptions of God? C'mon.

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"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
MouthWash
Posts: 2,607
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9/27/2012 4:15:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/27/2012 3:39:23 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 9/27/2012 3:08:15 PM, 000ike wrote:
The God I don't believe in is the one you can pray to, the one that grants miracles, the one who has any knowable characteristics and most importantly of all, the one that decides whether people deserve heaven or hell.... Unless these are not attributes of your God, in which case you have no right to call yourself a christian, you need to can it with this vacuous rhetoric. All your post has demonstrated is how little you know of the sophistication behind new atheism.

Sidewalker destroyed.

Atheists have written entire books about the characteristics of God from a religious and philosophical description. And you think they base their entire argument based on childhood conceptions of God? C'mon.

Not all atheists, no. But a surprising percentage. Richard Dawkins springs to mind.
"Well, that gives whole new meaning to my assassination. If I was going to die anyway, perhaps I should leave the Bolsheviks' descendants some Christmas cookies instead of breaking their dishes and vodka bottles in their sleep." -Tsar Nicholas II (YYW)
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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9/27/2012 4:15:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/27/2012 3:39:23 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 9/27/2012 3:08:15 PM, 000ike wrote:
The God I don't believe in is the one you can pray to, the one that grants miracles, the one who has any knowable characteristics and most importantly of all, the one that decides whether people deserve heaven or hell.... Unless these are not attributes of your God, in which case you have no right to call yourself a christian, you need to can it with this vacuous rhetoric. All your post has demonstrated is how little you know of the sophistication behind new atheism.

Sidewalker destroyed.

Atheists have written entire books about the characteristics of God from a religious and philosophical description. And you think they base their entire argument based on childhood conceptions of God? C'mon.

Try to read slow, for comprehension, especially the part "a select group of very vocal Atheists".

You see, that would not be all Atheists, just the ones still thinking like children, you know, people like you and Ike.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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9/27/2012 4:40:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/27/2012 4:15:22 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 9/27/2012 3:39:23 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 9/27/2012 3:08:15 PM, 000ike wrote:
The God I don't believe in is the one you can pray to, the one that grants miracles, the one who has any knowable characteristics and most importantly of all, the one that decides whether people deserve heaven or hell.... Unless these are not attributes of your God, in which case you have no right to call yourself a christian, you need to can it with this vacuous rhetoric. All your post has demonstrated is how little you know of the sophistication behind new atheism.

Sidewalker destroyed.

Atheists have written entire books about the characteristics of God from a religious and philosophical description. And you think they base their entire argument based on childhood conceptions of God? C'mon.

Try to read slow, for comprehension, especially the part "a select group of very vocal Atheists".

You see, that would not be all Atheists, just the ones still thinking like children, you know, people like you and Ike.

actually, I just outlined for you exactly what kind of God I reject, and I know for a fact that you believe in all of those attributes. All you're doing is attacking people to compensate for the intellectually vapid Bullsh!t you asserted in the OP.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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9/27/2012 4:48:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/27/2012 4:15:08 PM, MouthWash wrote:
At 9/27/2012 3:39:23 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 9/27/2012 3:08:15 PM, 000ike wrote:
The God I don't believe in is the one you can pray to, the one that grants miracles, the one who has any knowable characteristics and most importantly of all, the one that decides whether people deserve heaven or hell.... Unless these are not attributes of your God, in which case you have no right to call yourself a christian, you need to can it with this vacuous rhetoric. All your post has demonstrated is how little you know of the sophistication behind new atheism.

Sidewalker destroyed.

Atheists have written entire books about the characteristics of God from a religious and philosophical description. And you think they base their entire argument based on childhood conceptions of God? C'mon.

Not all atheists, no. But a surprising percentage. Richard Dawkins springs to mind.

What do you have against Dawkins?
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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9/27/2012 6:16:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/27/2012 3:08:15 PM, 000ike wrote:
The God I don't believe in is the one you can pray to,

Me neither.

the one that grants miracles,

Same

the one who has any knowable characteristics

Same. Nothing is knowable.

and most importantly of all, the one that decides whether people deserve heaven or hell....

After life doesn't exist. I agree.

Does that mean you don't reject my God?? 0.o

Unless these are not attributes of your God, in which case you have no right to call yourself a christian, you need to can it with this vacuous rhetoric. All your post has demonstrated is how little you know of the sophistication behind new atheism.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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9/27/2012 6:28:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/27/2012 3:08:15 PM, 000ike wrote:
All your post has demonstrated is how little you know of the sophistication behind new atheism.

I lol'd.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
000ike
Posts: 11,196
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9/27/2012 6:33:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/27/2012 6:16:09 PM, phantom wrote:
At 9/27/2012 3:08:15 PM, 000ike wrote:
The God I don't believe in is the one you can pray to,

Me neither.

the one that grants miracles,

Same

the one who has any knowable characteristics

Same. Nothing is knowable.

and most importantly of all, the one that decides whether people deserve heaven or hell....

After life doesn't exist. I agree.


Does that mean you don't reject my God?? 0.o

nope, I don't reject the Deist God...I just see no reason why to believe in his existence, and any arguments towards that end would be struck down by the fact that such a God is unknowable so assuming he abides by logic and is logically applicable is simply unjustified.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
phantom
Posts: 6,774
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9/27/2012 6:37:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/27/2012 6:33:32 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 9/27/2012 6:16:09 PM, phantom wrote:
At 9/27/2012 3:08:15 PM, 000ike wrote:
The God I don't believe in is the one you can pray to,

Me neither.

the one that grants miracles,

Same

the one who has any knowable characteristics

Same. Nothing is knowable.

and most importantly of all, the one that decides whether people deserve heaven or hell....

After life doesn't exist. I agree.


Does that mean you don't reject my God?? 0.o

nope, I don't reject the Deist God...I just see no reason why to believe in his existence, and any arguments towards that end would be struck down by the fact that such a God is unknowable so assuming he abides by logic and is logically applicable is simply unjustified.

kk, but for the bolded part I agree. Nothing is knowable. Everything is probabilities. I don't see the problem.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
MouthWash
Posts: 2,607
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9/27/2012 6:52:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/27/2012 4:48:18 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 9/27/2012 4:15:08 PM, MouthWash wrote:
At 9/27/2012 3:39:23 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 9/27/2012 3:08:15 PM, 000ike wrote:
The God I don't believe in is the one you can pray to, the one that grants miracles, the one who has any knowable characteristics and most importantly of all, the one that decides whether people deserve heaven or hell.... Unless these are not attributes of your God, in which case you have no right to call yourself a christian, you need to can it with this vacuous rhetoric. All your post has demonstrated is how little you know of the sophistication behind new atheism.

Sidewalker destroyed.

Atheists have written entire books about the characteristics of God from a religious and philosophical description. And you think they base their entire argument based on childhood conceptions of God? C'mon.

Not all atheists, no. But a surprising percentage. Richard Dawkins springs to mind.

What do you have against Dawkins?

Because he doesn't understand religion and his arguments are idiotic. He seems to think that if he refutes an assertion made in support of religious belief, then he has refuted all religious belief. I don't think any serious philosopher would take him seriously.
"Well, that gives whole new meaning to my assassination. If I was going to die anyway, perhaps I should leave the Bolsheviks' descendants some Christmas cookies instead of breaking their dishes and vodka bottles in their sleep." -Tsar Nicholas II (YYW)
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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9/27/2012 7:01:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/27/2012 6:52:16 PM, MouthWash wrote:
At 9/27/2012 4:48:18 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 9/27/2012 4:15:08 PM, MouthWash wrote:
At 9/27/2012 3:39:23 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 9/27/2012 3:08:15 PM, 000ike wrote:
The God I don't believe in is the one you can pray to, the one that grants miracles, the one who has any knowable characteristics and most importantly of all, the one that decides whether people deserve heaven or hell.... Unless these are not attributes of your God, in which case you have no right to call yourself a christian, you need to can it with this vacuous rhetoric. All your post has demonstrated is how little you know of the sophistication behind new atheism.

Sidewalker destroyed.

Atheists have written entire books about the characteristics of God from a religious and philosophical description. And you think they base their entire argument based on childhood conceptions of God? C'mon.

Not all atheists, no. But a surprising percentage. Richard Dawkins springs to mind.

What do you have against Dawkins?

Because he doesn't understand religion and his arguments are idiotic. He seems to think that if he refutes an assertion made in support of religious belief, then he has refuted all religious belief. I don't think any serious philosopher would take him seriously.

Ya got some proof?
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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9/27/2012 7:02:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/27/2012 7:01:07 PM, Lordknukle wrote:

Not all atheists, no. But a surprising percentage. Richard Dawkins springs to mind.

What do you have against Dawkins?

Because he doesn't understand religion and his arguments are idiotic. He seems to think that if he refutes an assertion made in support of religious belief, then he has refuted all religious belief. I don't think any serious philosopher would take him seriously.

Ya got some proof?

http://www.amazon.com...
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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9/27/2012 7:10:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/27/2012 7:02:48 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 9/27/2012 7:01:07 PM, Lordknukle wrote:

Not all atheists, no. But a surprising percentage. Richard Dawkins springs to mind.

What do you have against Dawkins?

Because he doesn't understand religion and his arguments are idiotic. He seems to think that if he refutes an assertion made in support of religious belief, then he has refuted all religious belief. I don't think any serious philosopher would take him seriously.

Ya got some proof?

http://www.amazon.com...

Dude... great argument....
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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9/27/2012 7:17:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/27/2012 4:15:22 PM, Sidewalker wrote:
Try to read slow, for comprehension, especially the part "a select group of very vocal Atheists".

You see, that would not be all Atheists, just the ones still thinking like children, you know, people like you and Ike.

I'm not an Atheist, especially one who conceives of God as the one from childhood. I have researched the many religio-philosophical concepts of God.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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9/27/2012 7:34:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/27/2012 7:10:57 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 9/27/2012 7:02:48 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 9/27/2012 7:01:07 PM, Lordknukle wrote:

Not all atheists, no. But a surprising percentage. Richard Dawkins springs to mind.

What do you have against Dawkins?

Because he doesn't understand religion and his arguments are idiotic. He seems to think that if he refutes an assertion made in support of religious belief, then he has refuted all religious belief. I don't think any serious philosopher would take him seriously.

Ya got some proof?

http://www.amazon.com...

Dude... great argument....

I know. It kind of speaks for itself, doesn't it?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Citrakayah
Posts: 1,500
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9/27/2012 7:52:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'm an atheist (a secular Jew, to be exact) and I don't particularly like Dawkins.

1. We can't disprove the existence of a reality-warping entity. They can simply make it so the test never happened. Nor can we really judge probability in any scientific manner; we have a sample size of one. All we can say is that a deity isn't necessary.
2. Religion =/= theism. For that matter, what many cultures consider 'gods' we would not. Most wouldn't consider, say, Hercules to be particularly godly, and he certainly doesn't conform to the Western concept of a deity.
3. And most important, why should we care? What is right is right, and what is wrong is wrong. I have seen atheists take positions I find abhorrent--Rand, for example--and I know many theists whom I see eye-to-eye on pretty much every cultural and political matter. So I do not judge people on their religion, I judge them on what they think their religion means. Which differs wildly from person to person.
4. Then we have the matter of faith. Some people have it, some people don't. I don't think you'll manage to convince someone who has it that they shouldn't have it by means of logic.

Dawkins brings up good points, from what I've seen, against some theists. But I think he errs in conflating some theists with all theists.
Sidewalker
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9/27/2012 9:57:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/27/2012 6:52:16 PM, MouthWash wrote:
At 9/27/2012 4:48:18 PM, Lordknukle wrote:


What do you have against Dawkins?

Because he doesn't understand religion and his arguments are idiotic. He seems to think that if he refutes an assertion made in support of religious belief, then he has refuted all religious belief. I don't think any serious philosopher would take him seriously.

They wouldn't take him seriously of course, but I don't really think he is that dumb, I actually think he was smart enough to recognize that there was a large audience that is that dumb and he saw an opportunity to cash in on 9/11. He has no respect for his followers, he's just laughing at them all the way to the bank.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
s-anthony
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9/27/2012 10:43:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/27/2012 3:08:15 PM, 000ike wrote:
The God I don't believe in is the one you can pray to, the one that grants miracles, the one who has any knowable characteristics and most importantly of all, the one that decides whether people deserve heaven or hell.... Unless these are not attributes of your God, in which case you have no right to call yourself a christian, you need to can it with this vacuous rhetoric. All your post has demonstrated is how little you know of the sophistication behind new atheism.

I believe God hears and answers all prayers, not just those of a select few.
I believe everything is a miracle.
I believe God is not only knowable, but is known by all.
I believe God is Heaven and Hell.
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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9/27/2012 10:57:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/27/2012 7:02:48 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 9/27/2012 7:01:07 PM, Lordknukle wrote:

Not all atheists, no. But a surprising percentage. Richard Dawkins springs to mind.

What do you have against Dawkins?

Because he doesn't understand religion and his arguments are idiotic. He seems to think that if he refutes an assertion made in support of religious belief, then he has refuted all religious belief. I don't think any serious philosopher would take him seriously.

Ya got some proof?

http://www.amazon.com...

Win.
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OberHerr
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9/27/2012 10:59:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The biggest issue I have with people arguing anything is when the paint their opposition as childish idiots, and never even attempt to see things room their side, or even consider that they may be wrong. And, that's somthing I've noticed a lot with Athiests on this site. Paradox is a good example of a theist version of this.

It's rude, obnoxious, and is the reason I despise(d) atheists like Dawkins, and Hitchens.
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Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

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Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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9/28/2012 3:37:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/27/2012 3:08:15 PM, 000ike wrote:
The God I don't believe in is the one you can pray to, the one that grants miracles, the one who has any knowable characteristics and most importantly of all, the one that decides whether people deserve heaven or hell.... Unless these are not attributes of your God, in which case you have no right to call yourself a christian,

LOL, why is it the childish atheists always think they are best suited to determine who is a Christian and who isn't. Do you really think that Christianity is to be defined by atheists?

Can't you see that this is the problem I was referring to in the OP, I get it that you don't understand what people of faith believe in when they mature and their ideas about transcendence develop beyond childhood, and I get it that thinking people of faith are still acting childish makes you feel all grown up and superior, but that was pretty much my OP point. Now you are insisting that your own childish, one dimensional, and literalistic interpretation of faith and God is the one true faith and God and you are arrogant enough to try to tell me that unless I intellectually digress back to your developmentally stunted childish interpretation of faith and God, I don't get to be a Christian?

Let me just say it again, I don't believe in the God you don't believe in, and I certainly reject your inane contention that I don't get to call myself a Christian if I don't accept this childish story book interpretation of Christianity that you are clinging to so desperately.

That is comically absurd, and it simply validates the point of my OP, it's just too bad that you don't get it, perhaps when you mature a little more, you will get it.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater