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Which came first: The chicken or the egg?

AlwaysMoreThanYou
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9/29/2012 8:12:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
This is to you, medic, and to anyone else who is reading this it has nothing to do with evolution. So ya'll can clear off.

How do you justify presuming the Bible over the Church when the Church came to exist first? You mentioned a bunch of stuff like we'd have no guidelines to judge the Church by, by you don't have any guidelines to judge the Bible by and you seem fine with that. A Church that is directly guided by God would be unable to fail anyway, and so there'd be no need to have guidelines to judge it by.

As best as I can see, every single thing you said could be turned against you just by swapping "Church" and "Bible".

So how is that you justify the Bible over the Church? Don't tell me "Because it's the Word of God and circular reasoning", because then I can just say "Well, it's the Church of God and circular reasoning".

:D
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
stubs
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9/29/2012 8:49:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/29/2012 8:12:05 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
This is to you, medic, and to anyone else who is reading this it has nothing to do with evolution. So ya'll can clear off.

How do you justify presuming the Bible over the Church when the Church came to exist first? You mentioned a bunch of stuff like we'd have no guidelines to judge the Church by, by you don't have any guidelines to judge the Bible by and you seem fine with that. A Church that is directly guided by God would be unable to fail anyway, and so there'd be no need to have guidelines to judge it by.

As best as I can see, every single thing you said could be turned against you just by swapping "Church" and "Bible".

So how is that you justify the Bible over the Church? Don't tell me "Because it's the Word of God and circular reasoning", because then I can just say "Well, it's the Church of God and circular reasoning".

:D

The church is just a group of believers. Clearly the church came before the bible because the church came to exist essentially right after Christ was risen while the historical documents that comprise the bible weren't written for years later.
Archistrategos
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9/29/2012 8:56:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/29/2012 8:49:49 PM, stubs wrote:
At 9/29/2012 8:12:05 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
This is to you, medic, and to anyone else who is reading this it has nothing to do with evolution. So ya'll can clear off.

How do you justify presuming the Bible over the Church when the Church came to exist first? You mentioned a bunch of stuff like we'd have no guidelines to judge the Church by, by you don't have any guidelines to judge the Bible by and you seem fine with that. A Church that is directly guided by God would be unable to fail anyway, and so there'd be no need to have guidelines to judge it by.

As best as I can see, every single thing you said could be turned against you just by swapping "Church" and "Bible".

So how is that you justify the Bible over the Church? Don't tell me "Because it's the Word of God and circular reasoning", because then I can just say "Well, it's the Church of God and circular reasoning".

:D

The church is just a group of believers. Clearly the church came before the bible because the church came to exist essentially right after Christ was risen while the historical documents that comprise the bible weren't written for years later.

Except for the entire Old Testament which was written down 4000 years ago and was oral tradition for 6000 years before that.
stubs
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9/29/2012 8:57:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/29/2012 8:56:09 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
Except for the entire Old Testament which was written down 4000 years ago and was oral tradition for 6000 years before that.

But what does that have to do with this thread?
Archistrategos
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9/29/2012 9:04:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/29/2012 8:57:39 PM, stubs wrote:
At 9/29/2012 8:56:09 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
Except for the entire Old Testament which was written down 4000 years ago and was oral tradition for 6000 years before that.

But what does that have to do with this thread?

Because it predates "the church" by a wide margin.

Idea of the chicken with the egg inside it came before either one.
The egg of the universe came before that.
DetectableNinja
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9/29/2012 9:30:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The chicken.

Next.
Think'st thou heaven is such a glorious thing?
I tell thee, 'tis not half so fair as thou
Or any man that breathes on earth.

- Christopher Marlowe, Doctor Faustus
medic0506
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9/29/2012 9:30:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/29/2012 8:12:05 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
This is to you, medic, and to anyone else who is reading this it has nothing to do with evolution. So ya'll can clear off.

How do you justify presuming the Bible over the Church when the Church came to exist first?

The Catholic church came first?? Ok then, can you answer these questions...

What did this church teach??
How did it get members??
When did it meet??
What did it honor, worship, celebrate, or whatever??
How did it justify itself to it's members??

You mentioned a bunch of stuff like we'd have no guidelines to judge the Church by, by you don't have any guidelines to judge the Bible by and you seem fine with that. A Church that is directly guided by God would be unable to fail anyway, and so there'd be no need to have guidelines to judge it by.

You're right, a church that is directly guided by God would be unable to fail, and there are alot of Protestant churches that have prospered for many years so how do you know if any of these churches are being guided by God, or by men??

The way Christians do that is by comparing the teachings of the church to those of God's word, the Bible. Christianity is about salvation through faith in Christ and trying our best to adhere to the word of God, not the word of the church. If the church is legit, the church AND the Bible will jive. If not then you have false teachings.

As best as I can see, every single thing you said could be turned against you just by swapping "Church" and "Bible".

I guess you could make that argument, but Catholics are the only group that I know of that accept that defense as legitimate.

So how is that you justify the Bible over the Church? Don't tell me "Because it's the Word of God and circular reasoning", because then I can just say "Well, it's the Church of God and circular reasoning".

You have to make the personal choice of where you are going to put your faith, and that's the best answer I can give for this. I'm not telling anyone not to go to church, but I personally am not bound by any church's dogma, and I think that has helped me understand the Bible better because I depend solely on that and prayer. I work strictly from my understanding of the Bible, and prayers to God for clarity and understanding. I know that I'm wrong in not going to church but until I find one that does not teach false, non-biblical beliefs, I'll have to continue looking.

So you can tell Dogknox that I concede that point to him. I know that we need to go to church, but not a church that claims that I need it in order to be saved.
Archistrategos
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9/29/2012 9:38:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/29/2012 9:30:49 PM, medic0506 wrote:

So you can tell Dogknox that I concede that point to him. I know that we need to go to church, but not a church that claims that I need it in order to be saved.

You need God to be saved. It say that quite repeatedly in the bible! lol!
Archistrategos
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9/29/2012 9:44:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/29/2012 9:28:22 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Eggs are found in other species, including the precursors of birds (dinosaurs), so obviously the egg came first :p

First dinosaurs with eggs, then aliens, then chickens with eggs.......then humans ;P
medic0506
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9/29/2012 9:53:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/29/2012 9:38:37 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
At 9/29/2012 9:30:49 PM, medic0506 wrote:

So you can tell Dogknox that I concede that point to him. I know that we need to go to church, but not a church that claims that I need it in order to be saved.

You need God to be saved. It say that quite repeatedly in the bible! lol!

I know, that's why I can't buy into any church that says that I need that church to be saved instead of God. A church is not a Savior, it is a body of the saved.
ScottyDouglas
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9/29/2012 9:53:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The OT was around long before the church. The Bible as we know it, was originally oral tradition and that predates the church also. The NT was a oral tradition before the church also. There is no physical church that is the body of Christ. The church of Christ is a spiritual one and that church has anyone who believes the Bible and Jesus Christ. Faith in the Lord and His Word is that church. Any church that claims to have the way to salvation and you need them for salvation has already went against the Word of God. The rock the chruch was founded one was not a man but Jesus Christ alone. The apostles were the beginning foundations not the corner stone. You say that the Sola Biblica is sercular reasoning, well, yeah that is the point. You act as if that is wrong here, still relying in earthly means and not the truth of God that He gave His Word to us. God's word is his Word regardless what you think about it.
TheAsylum
medic0506
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9/29/2012 9:55:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/29/2012 9:53:23 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
The OT was around long before the church. The Bible as we know it, was originally oral tradition and that predates the church also. The NT was a oral tradition before the church also. There is no physical church that is the body of Christ. The church of Christ is a spiritual one and that church has anyone who believes the Bible and Jesus Christ. Faith in the Lord and His Word is that church. Any church that claims to have the way to salvation and you need them for salvation has already went against the Word of God. The rock the chruch was founded one was not a man but Jesus Christ alone. The apostles were the beginning foundations not the corner stone. You say that the Sola Biblica is sercular reasoning, well, yeah that is the point. You act as if that is wrong here, still relying in earthly means and not the truth of God that He gave His Word to us. God's word is his Word regardless what you think about it.

Amen
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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9/30/2012 1:59:35 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Y people no read my post?

This had nothing to do with literal chickens and literal eggs.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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9/30/2012 2:07:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/29/2012 9:30:49 PM, medic0506 wrote:
The Catholic church came first?? Ok then, can you answer these questions...

I just said "the Church", as a hypothetical church. My point is more theoretical than practical here, because I don't see the grounds you use to presume the Bible.

You're right, a church that is directly guided by God would be unable to fail, and there are alot of Protestant churches that have prospered for many years so how do you know if any of these churches are being guided by God, or by men??

Men, obviously, because they're so johnny-come-lately.

Prospering =/= not failing, by not failing I mean "unable to falter in teaching the truth".

The way Christians do that is by comparing the teachings of the church to those of God's word, the Bible

Again, you presume the Bible. "The way Christians can tell how to interpret the Bible is by comparing the interpretations with the teachings of God's Church."

Christianity is about salvation through faith in Christ and trying our best to adhere to the word of God, not the word of the church.

Again, if the Church was guided by God it would be infallible.

If the church is legit, the church AND the Bible will jive. If not then you have false teachings.

"If your interpretation is legit, the Bible AND the Church will jive, if not you have a false interpretation."

I guess you could make that argument, but Catholics are the only group that I know of that accept that defense as legitimate.

I'm just talking about a hypothetical church here, nothing specific.

You have to make the personal choice of where you are going to put your faith, and that's the best answer I can give for this.

I see...

I'm not telling anyone not to go to church, but I personally am not bound by any church's dogma, and I think that has helped me understand the Bible better because I depend solely on that and prayer.

Tons of people "depend solely on the Bible", yet they would disagree with you countless times.

I work strictly from my understanding of the Bible, and prayers to God for clarity and understanding. I know that I'm wrong in not going to church but until I find one that does not teach false, non-biblical beliefs, I'll have to continue looking.

"I know I'm wrong in drawing interpretations from the Bible that are not supported by the teachings of the Church."

So you can tell Dogknox that I concede that point to him. I know that we need to go to church, but not a church that claims that I need it in order to be saved.

K.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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9/30/2012 2:13:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/29/2012 9:53:23 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
The OT was around long before the church. The Bible as we know it, was originally oral tradition and that predates the church also. The NT was a oral tradition before the church also.

lolwut? Who was carrying on the oral tradition if the church didn't exist?

There is no physical church that is the body of Christ. The church of Christ is a spiritual one and that church has anyone who believes the Bible and Jesus Christ. Faith in the Lord and His Word is that church. Any church that claims to have the way to salvation and you need them for salvation has already went against the Word of God.

"Any claim that the Bible is enough for salvation alone has already gone against God's Church."

The rock the chruch was founded one was not a man but Jesus Christ alone. The apostles were the beginning foundations not the corner stone.

Douay-Rhiems:

"So that, by the plain course of the words, Peter is here declared to be the rock, upon which the church was to be built: Christ himself being both the principal foundation and founder of the same. Where also note, that Christ, by building his house, that is, his church, upon a rock, has thereby secured it against all storms and floods, like the wise builder, St. Matt. 7. 24, 25."

You say that the Sola Biblica is sercular reasoning, well, yeah that is the point. You act as if that is wrong here, still relying in earthly means and not the truth of God that He gave His Word to us.

"You acts as if that is wrong here, still relying on earthly means and not the truth of God's Church."

God's word is his Word regardless what you think about it.

"God's Church is his Church regardless of what you think about it."

See what I did there (besides be insufferably annoying)? You've given no reason to presume the Bible.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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9/30/2012 2:19:23 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/29/2012 9:04:11 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
Because it predates "the church" by a wide margin.

Idea of the chicken with the egg inside it came before either one.
The egg of the universe came before that.


Deep, man. Deep.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
Archistrategos
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9/30/2012 2:27:52 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/30/2012 2:19:23 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 9/29/2012 9:04:11 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
Because it predates "the church" by a wide margin.

Idea of the chicken with the egg inside it came before either one.
The egg of the universe came before that.


Deep, man. Deep.

lol thanks!

The question is then...what laid the egg of the universe? What is a universe an embryonic form of?
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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9/30/2012 2:29:22 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/30/2012 2:27:52 AM, Archistrategos wrote:
At 9/30/2012 2:19:23 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 9/29/2012 9:04:11 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
Because it predates "the church" by a wide margin.

Idea of the chicken with the egg inside it came before either one.
The egg of the universe came before that.


Deep, man. Deep.

lol thanks!

The question is then...what laid the egg of the universe? What is a universe an embryonic form of?

A giant chicken.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
ScottyDouglas
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9/30/2012 2:32:38 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/30/2012 2:13:17 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 9/29/2012 9:53:23 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
The OT was around long before the church. The Bible as we know it, was originally oral tradition and that predates the church also. The NT was a oral tradition before the church also.

lolwut? Who was carrying on the oral tradition if the church didn't exist?
Men of God!

There is no physical church that is the body of Christ. The church of Christ is a spiritual one and that church has anyone who believes the Bible and Jesus Christ. Faith in the Lord and His Word is that church. Any church that claims to have the way to salvation and you need them for salvation has already went against the Word of God.

"Any claim that the Bible is enough for salvation alone has already gone against God's Church.":
Say's who, Pagans?

The rock the chruch was founded one was not a man but Jesus Christ alone. The apostles were the beginning foundations not the corner stone.

Douay-Rhiems:

"So that, by the plain course of the words, Peter is here declared to be the rock, upon which the church was to be built: Christ himself being both the principal foundation and founder of the same. Where also note, that Christ, by building his house, that is, his church, upon a rock, has thereby secured it against all storms and floods, like the wise builder, St. Matt. 7. 24, 25."

Sad, you can not see the contradiction. Christ build His church on himself not men or physical churches.
You say that the Sola Biblica is sercular reasoning, well, yeah that is the point. You act as if that is wrong here, still relying in earthly means and not the truth of God that He gave His Word to us.

"You acts as if that is wrong here, still relying on earthly means and not the truth of God's Church.":
LOL, God's church is not physical. RC IS.

God's word is his Word regardless what you think about it.

"God's Church is his Church regardless of what you think about it.":
The RC church is not God or His Word!

See what I did there (besides be insufferably annoying)? You've given no reason to presume the Bible.

We see who you worship, it is not the Biblical God.
TheAsylum
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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9/30/2012 2:35:59 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/30/2012 2:32:38 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
Men of God!

Then they were the church then, weren't they?

Say's who, Pagans?

Says me showing you why you have no justification for presuming the Bible.

Sad, you can not see the contradiction. Christ build His church on himself not men or physical churches.

Make a new thread if you want, this is pretty much 100% nontopical so I won't address it here.

LOL, God's church is not physical. RC IS.

Says who? You? Are you God?

We see who you worship, it is not the Biblical God.

You see nothing, for you are blind.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
Archistrategos
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9/30/2012 2:38:18 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/30/2012 2:29:22 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 9/30/2012 2:27:52 AM, Archistrategos wrote:
At 9/30/2012 2:19:23 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 9/29/2012 9:04:11 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
Because it predates "the church" by a wide margin.

Idea of the chicken with the egg inside it came before either one.
The egg of the universe came before that.


Deep, man. Deep.

lol thanks!

The question is then...what laid the egg of the universe? What is a universe an embryonic form of?

A giant chicken.

Why not a giant dinosaur?
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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9/30/2012 2:40:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/30/2012 2:38:18 AM, Archistrategos wrote:
At 9/30/2012 2:29:22 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 9/30/2012 2:27:52 AM, Archistrategos wrote:
At 9/30/2012 2:19:23 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 9/29/2012 9:04:11 PM, Archistrategos wrote:
Because it predates "the church" by a wide margin.

Idea of the chicken with the egg inside it came before either one.
The egg of the universe came before that.


Deep, man. Deep.

lol thanks!

The question is then...what laid the egg of the universe? What is a universe an embryonic form of?

A giant chicken.

Why not a giant dinosaur?

The only thing that can ever be associated with an egg is a chicken. Nothing but chickens lay eggs, and eggs hatch nothing but chickens.

So we're all just the yolk in the egg of a future Great Cosmic Chicken.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
Archistrategos
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9/30/2012 2:49:27 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/30/2012 2:40:15 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
The only thing that can ever be associated with an egg is a chicken. Nothing but chickens lay eggs, and eggs hatch nothing but chickens.

So we're all just the yolk in the egg of a future Great Cosmic Chicken.

I find your lack of speciation...disturbing! ;P

Snakes lay eggs.

Have you looked up the "Orphic Egg"?
ScottyDouglas
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9/30/2012 2:49:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/30/2012 2:35:59 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 9/30/2012 2:32:38 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
Men of God!

Then they were the church then, weren't they?:
Any person that believes is the church of God. Jesus Christ's church was a spiritual one.

Say's who, Pagans?

Says me showing you why you have no justification for presuming the Bible.:
LOL, Ok we see you deny the Bible. It has no authority at all. Jesus inspired it but that means nothing.

Sad, you can not see the contradiction. Christ build His church on himself not men or physical churches.

Make a new thread if you want, this is pretty much 100% nontopical so I won't address it here.:
Luke 6:48 He is like a man building a house, who dug and went deep, and laid a foundation on the rock. When a flood arose, the stream broke against that house, and could not shake it, because it was founded on the rock.

LOL, God's church is not physical. RC IS.

Says who? You? Are you God?:
Jesus Christ said, or do you pass over the passages that His kingdom and assembly is not of this world?

We see who you worship, it is not the Biblical God.

You see nothing, for you are blind.:
I can see you are in a Pagan cult.
TheAsylum
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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9/30/2012 3:06:29 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/30/2012 2:49:32 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
Any person that believes is the church of God. Jesus Christ's church was a spiritual one.

So you assert. If you use the Bible to prove this, you are presuming it. If you don't use the Bible, it's just a bare assertion.

LOL, Ok we see you deny the Bible. It has no authority at all. Jesus inspired it but that means nothing.

How do you know Jesus inspired it? Show this without presuming it.

Luke 6:48 He is like a man building a house, who dug and went deep, and laid a foundation on the rock. When a flood arose, the stream broke against that house, and could not shake it, because it was founded on the rock.
Jesus Christ said, or do you pass over the passages that His kingdom and assembly is not of this world?

How do you know that Jesus Christ said that? Show without presuming the Bible.

I can see you are in a Pagan cult.

Like I said, that just shows how blind you are.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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9/30/2012 3:07:10 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 9/30/2012 2:49:27 AM, Archistrategos wrote:
I find your lack of speciation...disturbing! ;P

Snakes lay eggs.

Heresy.

Have you looked up the "Orphic Egg"?

Interesting...
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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9/30/2012 3:14:29 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Here, I've hacked together a horrendous argument.

Plz critique, although I know you probably would even if I didn't ask you to.

Troll Edition

Premise 1: God would prevent his Church from ceasing to exist.
Premise 2: The Catholic Church exists.
Conclusion: The Catholic Church is God's Church.

Real Edition

Premise 1: God would prevent his Church from ceasing to exist, so a church is God's Church.
Premise 2: God's Church was created during the time of Jesus.
Conclusion: Given that the only churches that have existed from the time of Jesus are Catholic, a Catholic Church is God's Church.

First point out any unjustified leaps in logic I make before addressing the premises.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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9/30/2012 5:17:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Actually, scratch this entire thing. It's pointless.

We (Christians) all accept the Bible, regardless of why. No one will ever see my perspective anyway, so there's no point in continuing this.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13