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The Papacy

Microsuck
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10/1/2012 7:11:20 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
The Pope is the Bishop of Rome. He is the highest living authority of the RCC. Catholics have been fed with lies, myths, and misconceptions about the papacy.

1) Papal infallibility is not supported by historical evidence. When the Catholic theologian Hans Kung questioned this doctrine, the current Pope, John Paul II announced that, Kung was to be stripped of all his academic post and told he should no longer consider himself a Catholic theologian

2) The claim that Peter was the first Pope, the first Bishop of Rome and was appointed to that position by Jesus himself is without any historical support

3) Many lay Catholics probably assumed that the popes in history had been men of elevated piety and morals. Yet this is another belief which is demonstrably false. Many of the past popes had been, well, scoundrels.

4) Peter was not the first pope of the RCC.

http://www.rejectionofpascalswager.net...
http://www.rejectionofpascalswager.net...

For Catholics, take a look at the links and the evidence that he gives. The Catholic church is not infallible and the Papacy is a joke.

For DogKnox, AMTY, and other catholics, give me your rebuttals.
Wall of Fail

Devil worship much? - SD
Newsflash: Atheists do not believe in the Devil! - Me
Newsflash: I doesnt matter if you think you do or not.....You do - SD

"you [imabench] are very naive and so i do not consider your opinions as having any merit. you must still be in highschool" - falconduler
Microsuck
Posts: 1,562
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10/1/2012 7:38:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/1/2012 7:21:29 AM, Ron-Paul wrote:
Well all of this is known.

Except to Catholics...
Wall of Fail

Devil worship much? - SD
Newsflash: Atheists do not believe in the Devil! - Me
Newsflash: I doesnt matter if you think you do or not.....You do - SD

"you [imabench] are very naive and so i do not consider your opinions as having any merit. you must still be in highschool" - falconduler
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Posts: 2,900
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10/1/2012 9:22:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Don't expect a thorough response from me any time soon. I'm not in the habit of refuting entire websites, especially as I don't really know anything.

At 10/1/2012 7:11:20 AM, Microsuck wrote:
Catholics have been fed with lies, myths, and misconceptions about the papacy.

Any lies, myths, and misconceptions about the papacy that I hold, I ate myself.

1) Papal infallibility is not supported by historical evidence. When the Catholic theologian Hans Kung questioned this doctrine, the current Pope, John Paul II announced that, Kung was to be stripped of all his academic post and told he should no longer consider himself a Catholic theologian

Heretic.

2) The claim that Peter was the first Pope, the first Bishop of Rome and was appointed to that position by Jesus himself is without any historical support

What do you deem historical support?

3) Many lay Catholics probably assumed that the popes in history had been men of elevated piety and morals.

Many lay Catholics don't know anything.

Yet this is another belief which is demonstrably false. Many of the past popes had been, well, scoundrels.

Yes. This is not a problem.

4) Peter was not the first pope of the RCC.

According to you.

For Catholics, take a look at the links and the evidence that he gives. The Catholic church is not infallible and the Papacy is a joke.

False. Definition of Joke: "A thing that someone says to cause amusement or laughter,"

I have severe doubts that you will ever be able to prove that someone said the Papacy to cause amusement.

For DogKnox, AMTY, and other catholics, give me your rebuttals.

I will eventually. Don't wait on it; Rome wasn't built in a day.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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10/1/2012 9:23:45 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/1/2012 7:38:12 AM, Microsuck wrote:
At 10/1/2012 7:21:29 AM, Ron-Paul wrote:
Well all of this is known.

Except to Catholics...

You're an atheist so why do you care?? Why does it bother you that they believe something different than you??
Dogknox
Posts: 5,082
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10/1/2012 11:45:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Microsuck you said.. 1) Papal infallibility is not supported by historical evidence. When the Catholic theologian Hans Kung questioned this doctrine, the current Pope, John Paul II announced that, Kung was to be stripped of all his academic post and told he should no longer consider himself a Catholic theologian
I reply: You have your little popes.. You also have heads of your churches that represent the whole church! WHAT....? Are you going to say; "I do NOT listen to them!!?"

Scriptures supports infallibility!
1) 17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

DO YOU SEE IT??? God the father "HIMSELF" stopped Peter from making error! Not flesh and blood (men) but God himself!!!!!!!

Jesus is building his ONE HOLY CHURCH on Peter the very man God stopped from making error! Jesus' church will never fall... Jesus' Church will always prevail against Satan and death!
NO ERRORS means; Satan will never, ever get a foothold!!!

2) Jesus is ALWAYS WITH his CHURCH!!! Always with his church to the very end of the world!!
Microsuck Jesus can't error!
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Microsuck DO YOU SEE IT?? I am with you always,

This means; Jesus is NOT, he cannot be with your thousands of man made bodies!
Microsuck Satan did not overpower Jesus, Satan did NOT take Jesus' holy Catholic body from Jesus! "JESUS IS ALWAYS WITH HIS BODY, TO THE VERY END OF THE WORLD!!!"

Microsuck Jesus' Church does NOT need to be RESTORED!!

"JESUS IS ALWAYS WITH HIS CHURCH"!

Microsuck You also must reject this scripture to think Jesus left his Holy Catholic Church! FACT: Christians believe the scriptures they do NOT reject the scriptures!

LOGIC ALONE: Tells you Jesus is not with any of your thousands of Man made bodies, simply because; No two are the same. PROVING Satan is the hand that form your many thousands of churches, not God! Jesus' Holy Catholic CHURCH does NOT need to be restored, he never left his bride!
Ephesians 5:27
and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

Scriptures tell you NO protestant churches are holy, blameless... They are all IN PROTEST against Jesus and his HOLY BLAMELESS CHURCH!

Jesus made Peter his Shepherd! Shepherd; The man in charge of the flock! Peter holds the KEYS to heaven and earth, he binds or looses! Peter cannot error, there is NO error in Heaven!

3) The Holy Spirit is Guiding the Holy Catholic Church, into all truth! If the Holy Spirit was to error then he would not be GOD! Thus the Holy Spirit cannot guide the Holy Catholic Church into error!
1 Timothy 3:15
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God"s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

No protestant church, NO NOT EVEN ONE can be guided by the Holy Spirit, they are all in chaos, not one is the same as the next.
NOT One protestant or protestant church was made by God! All are made by men, all came along at least SIXTEEN HUNDRED years after Jesus! Proving if you are looking for Jesus' church you can't look to any protestant churches!

You said.. 2) The claim that Peter was the first Pope, the first Bishop of Rome and was appointed to that position by Jesus himself is without any historical support
I reply: you are wrong! Peter was made SHEPHERD! Peter straightened the other Apostles! Scriptures show; Peters name is first and more then all the other Apostles put together, Judas is always LAST!
The list of 265 Popes always puts Peter as the first Pope!
The CHRISTIANS In Jesus early Church say Peter is first!
Clement of Alexandria IS CHRISTIAN!!
He said..
"[T]he blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly g.asped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? "Behold, we have left all and have followed you" [Matt. 19:27; Mark 10:28]" (Who Is the Rich Man That Is Saved? 21:3"5 [A.D. 200]).

DO YOU SEE IT?? Blessed, chosen, preeminent, first!!!!

Tertullian
He said..
"For though you think that heaven is still shut up, remember that the Lord left the keys of it to Peter here, and through him to the Church, which keys everyone will carry with him if he has been questioned and made a confession [of faith]" (Antidote Against the Scorpion 10 [A.D. 211]).

The Letter of Clement to James is CHRISTIAN!
Microsuck Clement is NOT protestant!!!
"Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter, the first fruits of our Lord, the first of the apostles; to whom first the Father revealed the Son; whom the Christ, with good reason, blessed; the called, and elect" (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D. 221]).

DO YOU SEE IT?? Was set apart to be the foundation of the Church!!!

Microsuck so far I have proven you MUST reject the scriptures, all LOGIC and the Early CHRISTIANS, for you to be protestant!
You reject what CHRISTIANS have always believed.. PROVING..
Microsuck proving you can't be a Christian!

You said.. 3) Many lay Catholics probably assumed that the popes in history had been men of elevated piety and morals. Yet this is another belief which is demonstrably false. Many of the past popes had been, well, scoundrels.

I reply: NOPE you once more prove you are WRONG!! Catholic's know some (very few) popes were scoundrels!
Microsuck All this PROVES is; Popes are MEN, all men are sinners!!! If they were NOT sinners, they would not be human!!!! DUH!!!!

You said.. 4) Peter was not the first pope of the RCC.
Okay: I will bite... "Who was then"?!

I wait for your reply!!!!

Dogknox
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Posts: 2,900
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10/1/2012 3:31:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
So this still isn't much of a rebuttal, but I've considered the points more thoroughly and will now readdress them.

Kind of.

At 10/1/2012 7:11:20 AM, Microsuck wrote:
The Pope is the Bishop of Rome. He is the highest living authority of the RCC. Catholics have been fed with lies, myths, and misconceptions about the papacy.

Refer to my earlier post.

1) Papal infallibility is not supported by historical evidence. When the Catholic theologian Hans Kung questioned this doctrine, the current Pope, John Paul II announced that, Kung was to be stripped of all his academic post and told he should no longer consider himself a Catholic theologian

I'm not sure of the specifics concerning this case, so I cannot make a statement here. It is possible Hans Kung misunderstood papal infallibility, although as he was a theologian I would certainly hope not.

Conclusion: I cannot say without more information.

2) The claim that Peter was the first Pope, the first Bishop of Rome and was appointed to that position by Jesus himself is without any historical support

Peter was not by necessity the first Pope according to Catholicism: He is generally taught to be the first Pope, but that is a more layman's view than the actual situation.

It is believed that Peter had a certain authority which has been conferred by Apostolic Succession to the current Holy Father.

Peter was not appointed to the See of Rome directly by Jesus, and I don't think that matters.

Conclusion: Even if Peter was neither a Pope nor the Bishop of Rome, this has no impact on the Catholic understanding of the papacy.

3) Many lay Catholics probably assumed that the popes in history had been men of elevated piety and morals. Yet this is another belief which is demonstrably false. Many of the past popes had been, well, scoundrels.

True. However, most lay Catholics don't know much, and an argument that appeals to the ignorance of the masses proves nothing.

It has never been a teaching of the Catholic Church that Popes are by necessity impeccable.

Conclusion: Even Dogknox answered this adequately.

4) Peter was not the first pope of the RCC.

Conclusion: See point 2.

As I may have mentioned, I'm not in the habit of refuting websites, especially not ones that have been building up for years.

Consider rebuttals given.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
Stephen_Hawkins
Posts: 5,316
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10/1/2012 4:14:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/1/2012 9:23:45 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 10/1/2012 7:38:12 AM, Microsuck wrote:
At 10/1/2012 7:21:29 AM, Ron-Paul wrote:
Well all of this is known.

Except to Catholics...

You're an atheist so why do you care?? Why does it bother you that they believe something different than you??

omfg I know right? Atheists should only be able to comment on atheist stuff, not Catholic stuff!

...see where banning freedom of speech on these silly grounds leads? Or freedom of edification. Or freedom of the internet.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

Social Contract Theory debate: http://www.debate.org...
MouthWash
Posts: 2,607
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10/1/2012 4:27:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/1/2012 4:14:00 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 10/1/2012 9:23:45 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 10/1/2012 7:38:12 AM, Microsuck wrote:
At 10/1/2012 7:21:29 AM, Ron-Paul wrote:
Well all of this is known.

Except to Catholics...

You're an atheist so why do you care?? Why does it bother you that they believe something different than you??

omfg I know right? Atheists should only be able to comment on atheist stuff, not Catholic stuff!

...see where banning freedom of speech on these silly grounds leads? Or freedom of edification. Or freedom of the internet.

I don't recall anyone calling for him to be banned from it.
"Well, that gives whole new meaning to my assassination. If I was going to die anyway, perhaps I should leave the Bolsheviks' descendants some Christmas cookies instead of breaking their dishes and vodka bottles in their sleep." -Tsar Nicholas II (YYW)
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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10/1/2012 5:29:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/1/2012 4:14:00 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 10/1/2012 9:23:45 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 10/1/2012 7:38:12 AM, Microsuck wrote:
At 10/1/2012 7:21:29 AM, Ron-Paul wrote:
Well all of this is known.

Except to Catholics...

You're an atheist so why do you care?? Why does it bother you that they believe something different than you??

omfg I know right? Atheists should only be able to comment on atheist stuff, not Catholic stuff!

...see where banning freedom of speech on these silly grounds leads? Or freedom of edification. Or freedom of the internet.

Jesus H. Rodriguez, what is your problem with me asking questions?? Who said anything about banning freedom of speech. Seems more like what you're trying to do to me. That's 2 threads in one day where you have a stroke because I ask questions.
Dogknox
Posts: 5,082
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10/2/2012 9:21:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Microsuck You there?? Cat got your tongue!!!
I add .... All institutions of men have there "heads" spokesmen...People that speak for the group!! Jesus made Peter and his successors his, to represent him until his return!!!

In the Old Testament, Moses spoke for God, he was God' hands and voice on earth! In the New Testament Peter is the voice; He is the hands and voice of Jesus! Peter alone holds the keys, given to him by Jesus himself!

You have your pastor speaking for your church!
The Police Chief speak for and represents the police department!
The Mayor represents your city, WHAT.. The mayor can represent the city but the pope can't represent Jesus' Holy Church???!

Peter and his successors speaks for the body of Jesus, if he/pope's is guided into error, by the Holy Spirit then the Holy Spirit, GOD himself is to be blamed!
Microsuck QUESTION Can God ERROR??!!!

By what you want to believe you say; "YES, God can error, and God' holy Body is an error!!"
You must reject the scriptures, to think God can lead into error>> GOD IS PERFECT, God can't sin or he would not be God!!!!!

Dogknox
annanicole
Posts: 19,788
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10/3/2012 7:34:21 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/2/2012 9:21:25 PM, Dogknox wrote:
Microsuck You there?? Cat got your tongue!!!
I add .... All institutions of men have there "heads" spokesmen...People that speak for the group!!

No, they don't

Jesus made Peter and his successors his, to represent him until his return!!!

You never proved Peter had a successor.

In the Old Testament, Moses spoke for God,

So did many other people, but they weren't called "Moses successors"

he was God' hands and voice on earth! In the New Testament Peter is the voice; He is the hands and voice of Jesus! Peter alone holds the keys, given to him by Jesus himself!

Peter is not the only voice.

You have your pastor speaking for your church!

No, I don't.

The Police Chief speak for and represents the police department!

And?

The Mayor represents your city, WHAT.. The mayor can represent the city but the pope can't represent Jesus' Holy Church???!

LMAO @ your reasoning

Peter and his successors speaks for the body of Jesus,

But you can't take the Bible and prove that Peter ever had a successor.

if he/pope's is guided into error, by the Holy Spirit then the Holy Spirit, GOD himself is to be blamed!

Correct. So ... thank goodness ... since one papa has called another papa a heretic, we know they aren't guided by the Spirit.

Microsuck QUESTION Can God ERROR??!!!

No, but popes can. And they have. Many times.

By what you want to believe you say; "YES, God can error, and God' holy Body is an error!!"

The Catholic church is in error.

You must reject the scriptures, to think God can lead into error>> GOD IS PERFECT, God can't sin or he would not be God!!!!!

Who said God can lead into error? The popes frequently err. Thus, God is not leading them.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Dogknox
Posts: 5,082
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10/3/2012 2:29:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
No churches have roots back to the Apostles except the Holy Catholic Church!
All churches are formed by men all except Jesus' Holy Catholic Church!

Jesus changed Simon's name to "Cephas the ROCK" Jesus' one church is built on "Cephas"!!! Jesus did not change any other Apostle's name except Simon's!! In scriptures, God only changes a mans name only if the man is given a special purpose by God!!

GOD formed ONE CHURCH! Just ONE CHURCH and it was not a church formed by men some sixteen hundred years AFTER Jesus!

Only the Holy Catholic Church has roots back to Cephas the SHEPHERD of Jesus' flock! Only the Holy Catholic Church has roots back to Cephas, 265 popes in an unbroken line from today back two thousand years! No one can prove otherwise!

No one can prove any other church has roots back to Cephas!!!
History, and LOGIC proves no church is Apostolic except the; Holy Catholic Church!

Jesus is ALWAYS with his CHURCH, no one can take Jesus' holy body from Jesus! Jesus is ALWAYS WITH his holy body to the very end of the world!

Mathew 28:20
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

The Holy Catholic Church, the BRIDE of Jesus, did not leave Jesus!
Jesus did not leave his holy Bride!
Satan did not take Jesus' body from Jesus!

God cannot lie...
"Jesus is ALWAYS WITH his Holy Church, the ONLY CHURCH that Peter shepherds; To the very end of the world!"

Dogknox
annanicole
Posts: 19,788
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10/4/2012 4:28:44 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/3/2012 2:29:19 PM, Dogknox wrote:
No churches have roots back to the Apostles except the Holy Catholic Church!

The apostles never heard of any Holy Catholic church. Wrong again.

All churches are formed by men all except Jesus' Holy Catholic Church!

Huh? Seems that that "fact" was left out of the Bible.

Jesus changed Simon's name to "Cephas the ROCK" Jesus' one church is built on "Cephas"!!!

No, it was built upon the confession that Peter made. Why do you make the same mistakes over and over?

Jesus did not change any other Apostle's name except Simon's!! In scriptures, God only changes a mans name only if the man is given a special purpose by God!!

And? By the way, Saul's name was changed to Paul.

GOD formed ONE CHURCH! Just ONE CHURCH and it was not a church formed by men some sixteen hundred years AFTER Jesus!

Correct. And it was founded in AD 33 in Jerusalem on Pentecost.

Only the Holy Catholic Church has roots back to Cephas the SHEPHERD of Jesus' flock!

Why did everyone fail to mention it?

Only the Holy Catholic Church has roots back to Cephas, 265 popes in an unbroken line from today back two thousand years! No one can prove otherwise!

Why are there so many conflicting lines of popes?

No one can prove any other church has roots back to Cephas!!!

Who would want to? I want roots back to Jerusalem in AD 33 on the day of Pentecost. I'm concerned about church identity, not church history.,

History, and LOGIC proves no church is Apostolic except the; Holy Catholic Church!

Logic proves otherwise.

Jesus is ALWAYS with his CHURCH, no one can take Jesus' holy body from Jesus! Jesus is ALWAYS WITH his holy body to the very end of the world!

"end of the age" .... end of the Jewish age.

Mathew 28:20
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

The Holy Catholic Church, the BRIDE of Jesus, did not leave Jesus!

The Catholic Church completely apostasized. Totally.

Jesus did not leave his holy Bride!

The Catholic Church is not the bride of anything, including Frankenstein.

Satan did not take Jesus' body from Jesus!

God cannot lie...
"Jesus is ALWAYS WITH his Holy Church, the ONLY CHURCH that Peter shepherds; To the very end of the world!"

That has nothing to do with any "Holy Catholic Church". Jesus was with the early church miraculously until the consummation of the Jewish state - not the end of the world.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Double_Helix46
Posts: 466
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10/5/2012 12:51:30 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
The Roman Catholic Church has many problems and past wrongs. Don't we all? Before we cast blame we should look in our own heart.
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Posts: 2,900
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10/5/2012 3:33:34 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I find it vaguely telling that Microsuck forfeited the first round of his debate on this.

Yes, I was stalking that debate. Problem?
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
Dogknox
Posts: 5,082
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10/5/2012 4:25:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Microsuck you said.. Papal infallibility is not supported by historical evidence. When the Catholic theologian Hans Kung questioned this doctrine, the current Pope, John Paul II announced that, Kung was to be stripped of all his academic post and told he should no longer consider himself a Catholic theologian

I reply: You have your little popes.. You also have heads of your churches that represent the whole church! WHAT....? Are you going to say; "I do NOT listen to them!!?"

Scriptures supports infallibility!

Matthew 16:17
Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

DO YOU SEE IT??? God the father "HIMSELF" stopped Peter from making error! Not flesh and blood (men) but God himself!!!!!!!

Jesus is building his ONE HOLY CHURCH on Peter the very man God stopped from making error! Jesus' church will never fall... Jesus' Church will always prevail against Satan and death!
NO ERRORS means; Satan will never, ever get a foothold!!!

Jesus is ALWAYS WITH his CHURCH!!! Always with his church to the very end of the world!!
Microsuck Jesus can't error!

Matthew 28:20
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Microsuck DO YOU SEE IT?? I am with you always,

This means; Jesus is NOT, he cannot be with your thousands of man made bodies!
Microsuck Satan did not overpower Jesus, Satan did NOT take Jesus' holy Catholic body from Jesus! "JESUS IS ALWAYS WITH HIS BODY, TO THE VERY END OF THE WORLD!!!"

Microsuck Jesus' Church does NOT need to be RESTORED!!

"JESUS IS ALWAYS WITH HIS CHURCH"!

Microsuck You also must reject this scripture to think Jesus left his Holy Catholic Church! FACT: Christians believe the scriptures they do NOT reject the scriptures!

LOGIC ALONE: Tells you Jesus is not with any of your thousands of Man made bodies, simply because; No two are the same. PROVING Satan is the hand that form your many thousands of churches, not God! Jesus' Holy Catholic CHURCH does NOT need to be restored, he never left his bride!

Ephesians 5:27
and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

Scriptures tell you NO protestant churches are holy, blameless... They are all IN PROTEST against Jesus and his HOLY BLAMELESS CHURCH!

Jesus made Peter his Shepherd! Shepherd; The man in charge of the flock! Peter holds the KEYS to heaven and earth, he binds or looses! Peter cannot error, there is NO error in Heaven!

The Holy Spirit is Guiding the Holy Catholic Church, into all truth! If the Holy Spirit was to error then he would not be GOD! Thus the Holy Spirit cannot guide the Holy Catholic Church into error!

1 Timothy 3:15
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God"s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

No protestant church, NO NOT EVEN ONE can be guided by the Holy Spirit, they are all in chaos, not one is the same as the next.
NOT One protestant or protestant church was made by God! All are made by men, all came along at least SIXTEEN HUNDRED years after Jesus! Proving if you are looking for Jesus' church you can't look to any protestant churches!

You said.. The claim that Peter was the first Pope, the first Bishop of Rome and was appointed to that position by Jesus himself is without any historical support

I reply: you are wrong! Peter was made SHEPHERD! Peter straightened the other Apostles! Scriptures show; Peters name is first and more then all the other Apostles put together, Judas is always LAST!
The list of 265 Popes always puts Peter as the first Pope on the list!
The CHRISTIANS In Jesus early Church say Peter is first!
Clement of Alexandria IS CHRISTIAN!!
He said..
"[T]he blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly g.asped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? "Behold, we have left all and have followed you" [Matt. 19:27; Mark 10:28]" (Who Is the Rich Man That Is Saved? 21:3"5 [A.D. 200]).

DO YOU SEE IT?? Blessed, chosen, preeminent, first!!!!

Tertullian
He said..
"For though you think that heaven is still shut up, remember that the Lord left the keys of it to Peter here, and through him to the Church, which keys everyone will carry with him if he has been questioned and made a confession [of faith]" (Antidote Against the Scorpion 10 [A.D. 211]).

The Letter of Clement to James is CHRISTIAN!
Microsuck Clement is NOT protestant!!!
He said..
"Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter, the first fruits of our Lord, the first of the apostles; to whom first the Father revealed the Son; whom the Christ, with good reason, blessed; the called, and elect" (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D. 221]).

DO YOU SEE IT?? Was set apart to be the foundation of the Church!!!

Microsuck so far I have proven you MUST reject the scriptures, all LOGIC and the Early CHRISTIANS, for you to be protestant!
You reject what CHRISTIANS have always believed.. PROVING..
Microsuck proving you can't be a Christian!

You said.. Many lay Catholics probably assumed that the popes in history had been men of elevated piety and morals. Yet this is another belief which is demonstrably false. Many of the past popes had been, well, scoundrels.

I reply: NOPE you once more prove you are WRONG!! Catholic's know some (very few) popes were scoundrels!
Microsuck All this PROVES is; Popes are MEN, all men are sinners!!! If they were NOT sinners, they would not be human!!!! DUH!!!!

You said.. Peter was not the first pope of the RCC.
Okay: I will bite... "Who was then"?!

Dogknox