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Foundation of America

ScottyDouglas
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10/2/2012 6:05:10 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
This was the theme our nation, America, was centered and focused upon!

"It is when people forget God that tyrants forge their chains" --Patrick Henry

"May not... the children of these fathers rightly say: Our fathers were English men which came over this great ocean and were ready to perish in this wilderness, but they cried unto the Lord, and He heard their voices...Let them therefore praise the Lord, because He is good, and His mercies endure forever." --William Bradford

"We shall find that the God os Israel is amoung us.. For we must consider that we shall be as a city upon a hill. So that of we shall deal falsely with our God in this work we have undertaken, and so cause Him to withdraw His present help from us, we shall be made a story and a by-word through the world." --John Winthrop

Harvard university the first American school, Motto was, " Truth, for Christ and the Church." Harvard's founder also said, "Let every scholar be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well the main and of his life and studies is to know God and Jesus Christ, which is eternal life. Therefore to lay Christ in the bottome as the only foundation of all sound knowledge and learning."

Princeton University motto was, "Under God's power She flourishes" Princeton's first president said, "Cursed be all learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ." --John Dickenson

At Yale, the aim was, "All scholars shall live religious, Godly and blameless lives according to the rules of God's word, diligently reading the holy scriptures..."

Dartmouth, Columbia, William Mary & Brown universities declarations were the same. In fact 123 of 126 first American colleges formed on Christian principles. Our early colleges clearly were founded on the Christian belief as was most of our founding fathers.

" Our end in leaving our native country is not to gain riches and honor, but singly this; to live wholly for the glory of God." --Founding settlers, William J. Federer
"If thou wouldst rule well, thou must rule for God, and to do that, thou must be ruled by Him. Those who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants." --William Penn

"If you ask an American, who is his master? He will tell you he has none, nor any governor but Jesus Christ." --John Trumbull

" You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention." --George Washington adressing Native Americans

"If the power of the gospel is not felt throughout the length and breadth of the land, anarchy and misrule, degradation and misery, corruption and darkness will reign without mitigation or end." --Daniel Webster

"No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and priveleges of a free people. All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible." --Noah Webster founder of Webster's dictionary

"The rights of the Colonists as Christians...may be best understood by reading and carefully studying the institution of The Great Law Giver and Head of the Christian Church, which are to be founded clearly written in the New Testament." --Samuel Adams

Father of Samuel Morris, founder of the Morris code said, " To the kindly influence of Christianity, we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. In proportion, as the genuine effects of Christianity are diminished in any nation, either through unbelief, or the corruption of its doctrines. In the same proportion will the people of the nation recede from the blessings of genuine freedom and approximate the miseries of complete despotism."

Andrew Jackson stated about the Bible,"That book, Sir, is the rock upon which our Republic rests."

I dare anyone to challenge the precepts of these great men. To say that their new age ideals are superior unto theirs.
TheAsylum
s-anthony
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10/2/2012 7:23:26 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/2/2012 6:05:10 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
The Crusades and the Inquisition were founded on Christian principles, too.
ScottyDouglas
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10/2/2012 7:44:46 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/2/2012 7:23:26 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 10/2/2012 6:05:10 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
The Crusades and the Inquisition were founded on Christian principles, too.

Were they? I think you are mistaken. The Bible and Jesus Christ are Christian princibles. Neither followed them.
TheAsylum
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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10/2/2012 7:51:29 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
From:
The Age of Reason by Thomas Paine, pp. 8,9 (Republished 1984, Prometheus Books, Buffalo, NY)

George Washington, the first president of the United States, never declared himself a Christian according to contemporary reports or in any of his voluminous correspondence. Washington Championed the cause of freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion. When John Murray (a universalist who denied the existence of hell) was invited to become an army chaplain, the other chaplains petitioned Washington for his dismissal. Instead, Washington gave him the appointment. On his deathbed, Washinton uttered no words of a religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in attendance.
From:
George Washington and Religion by Paul F. Boller Jr., pp. 16, 87, 88, 108, 113, 121, 127 (1963, Southern Methodist University Press, Dallas, TX)

John Adams, the country's second president, was drawn to the study of law but faced pressure from his father to become a clergyman. He wrote that he found among the lawyers 'noble and gallant achievments" but among the clergy, the "pretended sanctity of some absolute dunces". Late in life he wrote: "Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!"

It was during Adam's administration that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship, which states in Article XI that "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."
From:
The Character of John Adams by Peter Shaw, pp. 17 (1976, North Carolina Press, Chapel Hill, NC) Quoting a letter by JA to Charles Cushing Oct 19, 1756, and John Adams, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by James Peabody, p. 403 (1973, Newsweek, New York NY) Quoting letter by JA to Jefferson April 19, 1817, and in reference to the treaty, Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 311 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse, June, 1814.

Thomas Jefferson, third president and author of the Declaration of Independence, said:"I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian." He referred to the Revelation of St. John as "the ravings of a maniac" and wrote:
The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ levelled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained."
From:
Thomas Jefferson, an Intimate History by Fawn M. Brodie, p. 453 (1974, W.W) Norton and Co. Inc. New York, NY) Quoting a letter by TJ to Alexander Smyth Jan 17, 1825, and Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 246 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to John Adams, July 5, 1814.

Ethan Allen, whose capture of Fort Ticonderoga while commanding the Green Mountain Boys helped inspire Congress and the country to pursue the War of Independence, said, "That Jesus Christ was not God is evidence from his own words." In the same book, Allen noted that he was generally "denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian." When Allen married Fanny Buchanan, he stopped his own wedding ceremony when the judge asked him if he promised "to live with Fanny Buchanan agreeable to the laws of God." Allen refused to answer until the judge agreed that the God referred to was the God of Nature, and the laws those "written in the great book of nature."
From:
Religion of the American Enlightenment by G. Adolph Koch, p. 40 (1968, Thomas Crowell Co., New York, NY.) quoting preface and p. 352 of Reason, the Only Oracle of Man and A Sense of History compiled by American Heritage Press Inc., p. 103 (1985, American Heritage Press, Inc., New York, NY.)

Benjamin Franklin, delegate to the Continental Congress and the Constitutional Convention, said:
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion...has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble." He died a month later, and historians consider him, like so many great Americans of his time, to be a Deist, not a Christian.
From:
Benjamin Franklin, A Biography in his Own Words, edited by Thomas Fleming, p. 404, (1972, Newsweek, New York, NY) quoting letter by BF to Exra Stiles March 9, 1970.

The words "In God We Trust" were not consistently on all U.S. currency until 1956, during the McCarthy Hysteria.

The Treaty of Tripoli, passed by the U.S. Senate in 1797, read in part: "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion." The treaty was written during the Washington administration, and sent to the Senate during the Adams administration. It was read aloud to the Senate, and each Senator received a printed copy. This was the 339th time that a recorded vote was required by the Senate, but only the third time a vote was unanimous (the next time was to honor George Washington). There is no record of any debate or dissension on the treaty. It was reprinted in full in three newspapers - two in Philadelphia, one in New York City. There is no record of public outcry or complaint in subsequent editions of the papers.

Source: http://www.skeptically.org...
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
16kadams
Posts: 10,497
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10/2/2012 8:03:41 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I think most of them where deist...
https://www.youtube.com...
https://rekonomics.wordpress.com...
"A trend is a trend, but the question is, will it bend? Will it alter its course through some unforeseen force and come to a premature end?" -- Alec Cairncross
ScottyDouglas
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10/2/2012 8:23:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Thomas Paine : http://www.belcherfoundation.org...

George Washington : http://www.christiananswers.net...

John Adams : In 1796, Adams remarked in his Deist book The Age of Reason, saying, "The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity, let the Blackguard Paine say what he will." http://en.wikipedia.org...

Thomas Jefferson : http://www.jesus-is-savior.com...

Bejamin Franklin : On July 4, 1776, Congress appointed a three-member committee composed of Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and John Adams to design the Great Seal of the United States. Franklin's proposal (which was not adopted) featured the motto: "Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God" and a scene from the Book of Exodus, with Moses, the Israelites, the pillar of fire, and George III depicted as pharaoh. The design that was produced was never acted upon by Congress and the Great Seal's design was not finalized until a third committee was appointed in 1782. http://en.wikipedia.org...

Are we forgetting that America was around long before it became a nation? In essence, it was founded on Christian values, meaning most of our fundamental laws are based on the morals that are found in the Old and New Testament. Many were judeo-Christian, but free masonry is what most/almost all presidents belong to. This in sense means that the bulk of people that came to America were in fact Christian.

1630's Puritans settle Massachusetts Bay
1640's Southern Englishmen (Protestants) settle Virginia
1670's Northern Englishmen and Welsh (Protestants) settle the Delaware Valley
1720's Scotch, Irish and Yorkshire Protestants move into the Appalachian Valley.

The list goes on-and-on including Catholics who founded Maryland and named it after the Blessed Virgin. Which is why the constitution insists on freedom of religion as well as the strict separation of Church and State.
TheAsylum
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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10/2/2012 8:46:07 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/2/2012 8:23:17 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
Thomas Paine : http://www.belcherfoundation.org...

This has nothing to do with Thomas Paine. He isn't even mentioned.


George Washington : http://www.christiananswers.net...

This is from a christian site which simply asserts Washingtons christianity rather then using any evidence. But, a common practice in those day's was to call a clergy member to your death bed. As Washington did not do this, it is a small piece of evidence pointing towards a lack of faith.


John Adams : In 1796, Adams remarked in his Deist book The Age of Reason, saying, "The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity, let the Blackguard Paine say what he will." http://en.wikipedia.org...

This one conflicts with the quote I have given, so it leaves one to wonder the truth. Regardless, he was not a christian. This is fact.


Thomas Jefferson : http://www.jesus-is-savior.com...

This proves my point, it also say's that jefferson is not a christian.


Bejamin Franklin : On July 4, 1776, Congress appointed a three-member committee composed of Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and John Adams to design the Great Seal of the United States. Franklin's proposal (which was not adopted) featured the motto: "Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God" and a scene from the Book of Exodus, with Moses, the Israelites, the pillar of fire, and George III depicted as pharaoh. The design that was produced was never acted upon by Congress and the Great Seal's design was not finalized until a third committee was appointed in 1782. http://en.wikipedia.org...

Benjamin Franklin is widely know to have been a deist, his use of a quote from the bible has no weight in this.


Are we forgetting that America was around long before it became a nation? In essence, it was founded on Christian values, meaning most of our fundamental laws are based on the morals that are found in the Old and New Testament. Many were judeo-Christian, but free masonry is what most/almost all presidents belong to. This in sense means that the bulk of people that came to America were in fact Christian.

Why does any of this matter? All you did is assert it is founded on christian morals and laws from the old/new testament. Then bable on about masonry.


1630's Puritans settle Massachusetts Bay
1640's Southern Englishmen (Protestants) settle Virginia
1670's Northern Englishmen and Welsh (Protestants) settle the Delaware Valley
1720's Scotch, Irish and Yorkshire Protestants move into the Appalachian Valley.

The list goes on-and-on including Catholics who founded Maryland and named it after the Blessed Virgin. Which is why the constitution insists on freedom of religion as well as the strict separation of Church and State.

Irrelevant.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
GenesisCreation
Posts: 496
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10/2/2012 8:46:40 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/2/2012 7:23:26 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 10/2/2012 6:05:10 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
The Crusades and the Inquisition were founded on Christian principles, too.

Catholic Crusades =/= Christianity
Um....You've got a log in your eye.
"I would be suspicious of an argument without any concessions." - John Dickson
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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10/2/2012 10:26:34 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/2/2012 7:44:46 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 10/2/2012 7:23:26 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 10/2/2012 6:05:10 AM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
The Crusades and the Inquisition were founded on Christian principles, too.

Were they? I think you are mistaken. The Bible and Jesus Christ are Christian princibles. Neither followed them.

I would have liked to have heard you say that to the crusaders and inquisitors.
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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10/2/2012 10:28:33 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/2/2012 8:46:40 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
Catholic Crusades =/= Christianity

I wonder how they would of responded to that.
Koopin
Posts: 12,090
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10/2/2012 10:31:59 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/2/2012 10:28:33 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 10/2/2012 8:46:40 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
Catholic Crusades =/= Christianity

I wonder how they would of responded to that.

Is this an argument?
kfc
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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10/2/2012 10:39:25 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/2/2012 10:31:59 AM, Koopin wrote:
At 10/2/2012 10:28:33 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 10/2/2012 8:46:40 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
Catholic Crusades =/= Christianity

I wonder how they would of responded to that.

Is this an argument?

Yes. They claimed to be killing in the name of Jesus. How can anybody say they weren't?
Koopin
Posts: 12,090
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10/2/2012 10:44:55 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/2/2012 10:39:25 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 10/2/2012 10:31:59 AM, Koopin wrote:
At 10/2/2012 10:28:33 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 10/2/2012 8:46:40 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
Catholic Crusades =/= Christianity

I wonder how they would of responded to that.

Is this an argument?

Yes. They claimed to be killing in the name of Jesus. How can anybody say they weren't?

And killing in the name of Jesus is where in the bible?
kfc
MilitaryAtheist
Posts: 1,058
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10/2/2012 10:49:16 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/2/2012 10:44:55 AM, Koopin wrote:
At 10/2/2012 10:39:25 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 10/2/2012 10:31:59 AM, Koopin wrote:
At 10/2/2012 10:28:33 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 10/2/2012 8:46:40 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
Catholic Crusades =/= Christianity

I wonder how they would of responded to that.

Is this an argument?

Yes. They claimed to be killing in the name of Jesus. How can anybody say they weren't?

And killing in the name of Jesus is where in the bible?

I kill in the name of the FSM.
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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10/2/2012 11:02:19 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/2/2012 10:44:55 AM, Koopin wrote:
And killing in the name of Jesus is where in the bible?

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household." - Matthew 10:34-36

The entire Book of Revelation.
ScottyDouglas
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10/2/2012 1:46:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/2/2012 11:02:19 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 10/2/2012 10:44:55 AM, Koopin wrote:
And killing in the name of Jesus is where in the bible?

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household." - Matthew 10:34-36

The entire Book of Revelation.

You must interpret, cause I do not get anything your saying here as killing. I see Jesus destorying evil, please tell me that is not a bad thing?
TheAsylum
s-anthony
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10/2/2012 8:59:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/2/2012 1:46:36 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
At 10/2/2012 11:02:19 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 10/2/2012 10:44:55 AM, Koopin wrote:
And killing in the name of Jesus is where in the bible?

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household." - Matthew 10:34-36

The entire Book of Revelation.

You must interpret, cause I do not get anything your saying here as killing. I see Jesus destorying evil, please tell me that is not a bad thing?

A license to massacre millions of people, in the name of Jesus, is the interpretation the Medieval Church gave these passages.
THEBOMB
Posts: 2,872
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10/2/2012 9:25:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
List of the founding fathers (even Who Shaped Our Destiny: The Founding Fathers as Revolutionaries):

John Adams
Benjamin Franklin
Alexander Hamilton
John Jay
Thomas Jefferson
James Madison
George Washington

ONLY JOHN JAY WAS A CHRISTIAN!

Thomas Jefferson

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."

John Locke wrote the government lacked authority to get people to cede their conscience to them.

Roger Williams, proponent of separation of church and state.

Treaty of Tripoli

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

James Madison

"Mr. [Peter] Sylvester [of New York] had some doubts...He feared it [the First Amendment] might be thought to have a tendency to abolish religion altogether...Mr. [Elbridge] Gerry [of Massachusetts] said it would read better if it was that "no religious doctrine shall be established by law."...Mr. [James] Madison [of Virginia] said he apprehended the meaning of the words to be, that "Congress should not establish a religion, and enforce the legal observation of it by law."...[T]he State[s]...seemed to entertain an opinion that under the clause of the Constitution...it enabled them [Congress] to make laws of such a nature as might...establish a national religion; to prevent these effects he presumed the amendment was intended...Mr. Madison thought if the word "National" was inserted before religion, it would satisfy the minds of honorable gentlemen...He thought if the word "national" was introduced, it would point the amendment directly to the object it was intended to prevent."

Madison again

"Because if Religion be exempt from the authority of the Society at large, still less can it be subject to that of the Legislative Body."

Madison wrote of total seperation of church and state. (1819 letter to Robert Walsh)

JFK

"I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute"where no Catholic prelate would tell the President (should he be Catholic) how to act, and no Protestant minister would tell his parishoners for whom to vote"where no church or church school is granted any public funds or political preference"and where no man is denied public office merely because his religion differs from the President who might appoint him or the people who might elect him. I believe in an America that is officially neither Catholic, Protestant nor Jewish"where no public official either requests or accepts instructions on public policy from the Pope, the National Council of Churches or any other ecclesiastical source"where no religious body seeks to impose its will directly or indirectly upon the general populace or the public acts of its officials"and where religious liberty is so indivisible that an act against one church is treated as an act against all. [...] I do not speak for my church on public matters"and the church does not speak for me. Whatever issue may come before me as President"on birth control, divorce, censorship, gambling or any other subject"I will make my decision in accordance with these views, in accordance with what my conscience tells me to be the national interest, and without regard to outside religious pressures or dictates. And no power or threat of punishment could cause me to decide otherwise. But if the time should ever come"and I do not concede any conflict to be even remotely possible"when my office would require me to either violate my conscience or violate the national interest, then I would resign the office; and I hope any conscientious public servant would do the same."

The fact the Constitution never uses the word "God" in it.

Jefferson (writing about an amendment)

"[An] amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindu and Infidel of every denomination."

Benjamin Franklin

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible,"
"Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies."

John Adams

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

Jefferson

"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."

Declaration of Independence never mentions Jesus Christ or Christianity, but instead attributes our self-evident Rights and Equality to "the Laws of Nature and Nature"s God."

In Declaration of Independence Jefferson originally wrote: "All men are created equal and independent. From that equal creation they derive rights inherent and inalienable." Changed to "All men are created equal. They are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights."

If congress were Christians there would never be a rebellion: "For rebellion as is the sin of witchcraft." 1 Samuel, 15:23

1 Peter 2:13: "For the Lord's sake accept the authority of every human institution, whether of the emperor as supreme, or of governors, as sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to praise those who do right."

Romans 13:1: "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities; for there is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resist authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment."

More to come...
Lordknukle
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10/2/2012 9:25:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Aw... you quote people instead of presenting real arguments... that's cute :)
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
THEBOMB
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10/2/2012 9:30:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Madison

"It may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the Civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on unessential points. The tendency to unsurpastion on one side or the other, or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them, will be best guarded agst. by an entire abstinence of the Gov't from interfence in any way whatsoever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order, and protecting each sect agst. trespasses on its legal rights by others."

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."

"Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."

"Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and corruption, all of which facilitate the execution of mischievous projects."

"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries."

John Adams

""As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?"

""I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved-- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"

""The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning. And ever since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality, is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, and fly into your face and eyes."

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity."

""The question before the human race is, whether the God of Nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?"

""Can a free government possibly exist with the Roman Catholic religion?"

""God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there will never be any liberal science in the world."

""Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1,500 years?"

"". . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."

""This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."

""The human understanding is a revelation from its maker, which can never be disputed or doubted. There can be no scepticism, Pyrrhonism, or incredulity or infidelity here. No prophecies, no miracles are necessary to prove this celestical communication. This revelation has made it certain that two and one make three, and that one is not three nor can three be one. We can never be so certain of any prophecy, or the fulfilment of any prophecy, or of any miracle, or the design of any miracle, as we are from the revelation of nature, that is, nature's God, that two and two are equal to four."

Thomas Jefferson

""The hocus-pocus phantasm of a God like another Cerberus, with one body and three heads, had its birth and growth in the blood of thousands and thousands of martyrs."

""It is too late in the day for men of sincerity to pretend they believe in the Platonic mysticisms that three are one, and one is three; and yet the one is not three, and the three are not one: to divide mankind by a single letter into ["consubstantialists and like-substantialists"]. But this constitutes the craft, the power and the profit of the priests. Sweep away their gossamer fabrics of factitious religion, and they would catch no more flies. We should all then, like the quakers, live without an order of priests, moralise for ourselves, follow the oracle of conscience, and say nothing about what no man can understand, nor therefore believe; for I suppose belief to be the assent of the mind to an intelligible proposition."

""And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this the most venerated reformer of human errors."

See the Jefferson Bible.

""No one sees with greater pleasure than myself the progress of reason in its advances towards rational Christianity. When we shall have done away the incomprehensible jargon of the Trinitarian arithmetic, that three are one, and one is three; when we shall have knocked down the artificial scaffolding, raised to mask from view the simple structure of Jesus; when, in short, we shall have unlearned everything which has been taught since His day, and get back to the pure and simple doctrines He inculcated, we shall then be truly and worthily His disciples; and my opinion is that if nothing had ever been added to what flowed purely from His lips, the whole world would at this day have been Christian. I know that the case you cite, of Dr. Drake, has been a common one. The religion-builders have so distorted and deformed the doctrines of Jesus, so muffled them in mysticisms, fancies and falsehoods, have caricatured them into forms so monstrous and inconceivable, as to shock reasonable thinkers, to revolt them against the whole, and drive them rashly to pronounce its Founder an imposter. Had there never been a commentator, there never would have been an infidel."

""As to the calumny of Atheism, I am so broken to calumnies of every kind, from every department of government, Executive, Legislative, and Judiciary, and from every minion of theirs holding office or seeking it, that I entirely disregard it, and from Chace it will have less effect than from any other man in the United States. It has been so impossible to contradict all their lies, that I have determined to contradict none; for while I should be engaged with one, they would publish twenty new ones."

Let's keep going shall we?
THEBOMB
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10/2/2012 9:36:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Jefferson

""The returning good sense of our country threatens abortion to their (the Christian clergy) hopes, and they believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

""If by religion we are to understand sectarian dogmas, in which no two of them agree, then your exclamation on that hypothesis is just, "that this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it." But if the moral precepts, innate in man, and made a part of his physical constitution, as necessary for a social being, if the sublime doctrines of philanthropism and deism taught us by Jesus of Nazareth, in which all agree, constitute true religion, then, without it, this would be, as you again say, "something not fit to be named even, indeed, a hell."

""The office of reformer of the superstitions of a nation is ever dangerous. Jesus had to walk on the perilous confines of reason and religion; and a step to right or left might place Him within the grasp of the priests of the superstition, a bloodthirsty race, as cruel and remorseless as the Being whom they represented as the family God of Abraham, of Isaac and of Jacob, and the local God of Israel. They were constantly laying snares, too, to entangle Him in the web of the law. He was justifiable, therefore, in avoiding these by evasions, by sophisms, by misconstructions and misapplications of scraps of the prophets, and in defending Himself with these their own weapons, as sufficient, ad homines, at least. That Jesus did not mean to impose Himself on mankind as the Son of God, physically speaking, I have been convinced by the writings of men more learned than myself in the lore."

""But while this syllabus is meant to place the character of Jesus in its true light, as no imposter himself, but a great reformer of the Hebrew code of religion, it is not to be understood that I am with him in all his doctrines. I am a materialist; he takes the side of spiritualism; he preaches the efficacy of repentance towards forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it."

""In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose."

""Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."

""Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."

""History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."

""It has been fifty and sixty years since I read the Apocalypse, and then I considered it merely the ravings of a maniac."

""No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever."

""... I am not afraid of priests. They have tried upon me all their various batteries of pious whining, hypocritical canting, lying and slandering. I have contemplated their order from the Magi of the East to the Saints of the West and I have found no difference of character, but of more or less caution, in proportion to their information or ignorance on whom their interested duperies were to be played off. Their sway in New England is indeed formidable. No mind beyond mediocrity dares there to develop itself."

"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the Common Law."

Benjamin Franklin

"I think vital religion has always suffered when orthodoxy is more regarded than virtue. The scriptures assure me that at the last day we shall not be examined on what we thought but what we did."

". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it."

"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity."

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish Church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice themselves both here (England) and in New England."

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."

"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself so that its professors are obliged to call for the help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one."

""It is much to be lamented that a man of Franklin's general good character and great influence should have been an unbeliever in Christianity, and also have done as much as he did to make others unbelievers" (Priestley's Autobiography)

Thomas Paine

"Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst."

""Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half of the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind."

"What is it the New Testament teaches us? To believe that the Almighty committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married; and the belief of this debauchery is called faith."

""Take away from Genesis the belief that Moses was the author, on which only the strange belief that it is the word of God has stood, and there remains nothing of Genesis but an anonymous book of stories, fables, and traditionary or invented absurdities, or of downright lies."

""The story of Jesus Christ appearing after he was dead is the story of an apparition, such as timid imaginations can always create in vision, and credulity believe. Stories of this kind had been told of the assassination of Julius Caesar."

"The study of theology, as it stands in the Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authority; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing; and it admits of no conclusion."

Okay,
THEBOMB
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10/2/2012 9:37:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/2/2012 9:25:57 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Aw... you quote people instead of presenting real arguments... that's cute :)

My counterarguments are quotes too :D
ScottyDouglas
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10/2/2012 11:02:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Yep, I guess we can think a handful of poeple for the foundation of this country. It was all those people you mention there that founded this nation. The little people who came in droves did not do nothing. If it was not for those men you named this country would not be a nation today. Of course our nation was not formed under the Christian God and the Bible as I said. You can bring quotes all day from the men who ruled this country that they were not Christian, it doesn't matter. They did not make even a small portion of the population. They do not have to be christian for the foundation of america to be build on christian principles. No matter were you turn and where you go that truth is undeniable.
http://www.usconstitution.net...
In 1844, the Court said, "Christianity is part of our common law."

In 1892, the Supreme Court said this: "No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national because this is a religious people. This is historically true."

In 1930, the U.S. Supreme Court said this: "We are a Christian people, according to our motto."

In 1952, the U.S. Supreme Court said, "We are a religious people whose institutions presuppose a Supreme Being.

George Washington- "I now make it my earnest prayer the God would have you and the State over which you preside, in His holy protection, that he would incline the hearts of the citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to government; to entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another, for their fellow citizens of the United States at large, and particularly for their brethren who have served in the field; and, finally, that he would be most graciously pleased to dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility, and pacific temper of mind, which were the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion, and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things we can never hope to be a happy nation." June 8, 1783 in a letter to the governors of the states on disbanding the army.

Thomas Jefferson- "God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever." 1781, Query XVIII of his Notes on that State of Virginia.

"My views...are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others..." April 21, 1803 in a letter to Dr. Benjamin.

"The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man."

"Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus....I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

James Madison- "Religion is the basis and Foundation of Government." June 20, 1785

"It is not the talking but the walking and working person that is the true Christian." In a manuscript on the Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles, Madison makes this statement.

"We have all been encouraged to feel in the guardianship and guidance of that Almighty Being, whose power regulates the destiny of nations." March 4, 1809 Inaugural Address

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We"ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity"to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

Benjamin Franklin- "Here is my Creed. I believe in on God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped.

That the most acceptable service we render to Him is in doing good to His other Children. That the soul of Man is immortal, and will be treated with Justice in another Life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound Religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever Sect I meet with them.

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, is the best the World ever saw, or is likely to see." March 9, 1790 in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University

"Heavenly Father, May all revere Thee, And become They dutiful children and faithful subjects. May thy Laws be obeyed on earth as perfectly as they are in Heaven. Provide for us this day as Thou hast hitherto daily done. Forgive us our trespasses, and enable us likewise to forgive those that offended us. Keep us out of temptation and deliver us from Evil." Franklin's own version of the Lord's Prayer

"God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel" " Constitutional Convention of 1787, original manuscript of this speech

John Adams- "The Christian religion is above all the Religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of Wisdom, Virtue, Equity, and Humanity. Let the Blackguard Paine say what he will; it is Resignation to God, it is Goodness itself to Man." July 26, 1796, in his diary.

"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

"The Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount contain my religion..." November 4, 1816 in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation." December 27, 1816 in a letter to Judge F.A. Van der Kemp.

The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were. . . . the general principles of Christianity. . . . I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature. (taken from a letter to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813)
Twenty times in the course of my late reading have I been on the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion at all!!!" But in this exclamation I would have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company, I mean hell.

Jesus is benevolence personified, an example for all men" The Christian religion, in its primitive purity and simplicity, I have entertained for more than sixty years. It is the religion of reason, equity, and love; it is the religion of the head and the heart

These men did not have to be christian themselves. What they did know and was smart enough to realize is that most of the citizens of America were. That means that they were wise enough to adopt the christian values into the foundation of this country. Not because they wanted to but because the citizens wanted to.
TheAsylum
s-anthony
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10/2/2012 11:37:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/2/2012 11:02:39 PM, ScottyDouglas wrote:
Our country is not ruled by quotes; its ruled by the Constitution, and the Establishment Clause reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...,".