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God's Mercy Towards the Israelites

s-anthony
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10/5/2012 12:19:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
The men of Israel have sex with the Moabite women. This angers God; so, he has the Israelites go to war, against the Moabites. The Israelites slaughter the men of Moab and, then, bring the women and children to Moses; and, this is what Moses says:

"Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

He has the women and little boys killed, but rewards the men by telling them, they may keep the virgin girls, for themselves.
Double_Helix46
Posts: 466
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10/5/2012 12:27:59 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/5/2012 12:19:00 AM, s-anthony wrote:
The men of Israel have sex with the Moabite women. This angers God; so, he has the Israelites go to war, against the Moabites. The Israelites slaughter the men of Moab and, then, bring the women and children to Moses; and, this is what Moses says:

"Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

He has the women and little boys killed, but rewards the men by telling them, they may keep the virgin girls, for themselves.

Really your interpretation is extremely lacking. First, the moabite women intentionally offered themselves to the Israelite men for adultry. Why? Because the Moabite men told them to. They did this to cause anger from the Israelite God and so He would punish them. This is in the same passages your got your story from. In return God commanded them to destroy the specific Moabite tribe that did this. The Israelite men saved some of the women who did this after God ordered their destruction. The result was the Israelite men was killed along with the women. The young men, who no doubt were as wicked, were slayed as well. The children and untouched women were saved. You call it slavery. That is laughable. You skipped over the actions of these people. They were raptist, murders, adulters, wicked, enslaved many people and constantly attacked the Israelites. Yes, you skip over what you do not want to read.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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10/5/2012 7:11:07 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/5/2012 12:27:59 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
At 10/5/2012 12:19:00 AM, s-anthony wrote:
The men of Israel have sex with the Moabite women. This angers God; so, he has the Israelites go to war, against the Moabites. The Israelites slaughter the men of Moab and, then, bring the women and children to Moses; and, this is what Moses says:

"Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

He has the women and little boys killed, but rewards the men by telling them, they may keep the virgin girls, for themselves.

Really your interpretation is extremely lacking. First, the moabite women intentionally offered themselves to the Israelite men for adultry. Why? Because the Moabite men told them to. They did this to cause anger from the Israelite God and so He would punish them. This is in the same passages your got your story from. In return God commanded them to destroy the specific Moabite tribe that did this. The Israelite men saved some of the women who did this after God ordered their destruction. The result was the Israelite men was killed along with the women. The young men, who no doubt were as wicked, were slayed as well. The children and untouched women were saved. You call it slavery. That is laughable. You skipped over the actions of these people. They were raptist, murders, adulters, wicked, enslaved many people and constantly attacked the Israelites. Yes, you skip over what you do not want to read.

These "people" committed crimes so it was justified to enslave the ones who did not (the virgin women)?

Since there are plenty of Caucasian murderers and rapists, I propose that you, DoubleHelix, be put to death so that the white race may pay for its crimes. Don't protest; your people are criminals.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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10/5/2012 7:13:09 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
LOL, this is fantastic logic. The women decide to break free of sexual repression and so they willingly enter into sexual relations with Israelites. This means that they must be punished, but not the Israelites (who apparently are blameless for some unknown reason even though adultery is an act committed by two people). In return, the Israelites are rewarded because they are able to rape, plunder, and murder Moabites.

What a just individual this God is!
Double_Helix46
Posts: 466
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10/5/2012 7:15:43 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/5/2012 7:11:07 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 10/5/2012 12:27:59 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
At 10/5/2012 12:19:00 AM, s-anthony wrote:
The men of Israel have sex with the Moabite women. This angers God; so, he has the Israelites go to war, against the Moabites. The Israelites slaughter the men of Moab and, then, bring the women and children to Moses; and, this is what Moses says:

"Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

He has the women and little boys killed, but rewards the men by telling them, they may keep the virgin girls, for themselves.

Really your interpretation is extremely lacking. First, the moabite women intentionally offered themselves to the Israelite men for adultry. Why? Because the Moabite men told them to. They did this to cause anger from the Israelite God and so He would punish them. This is in the same passages your got your story from. In return God commanded them to destroy the specific Moabite tribe that did this. The Israelite men saved some of the women who did this after God ordered their destruction. The result was the Israelite men was killed along with the women. The young men, who no doubt were as wicked, were slayed as well. The children and untouched women were saved. You call it slavery. That is laughable. You skipped over the actions of these people. They were raptist, murders, adulters, wicked, enslaved many people and constantly attacked the Israelites. Yes, you skip over what you do not want to read.

These "people" committed crimes so it was justified to enslave the ones who did not (the virgin women)?

Since there are plenty of Caucasian murderers and rapists, I propose that you, DoubleHelix, be put to death so that the white race may pay for its crimes. Don't protest; your people are criminals.:

Ever read the verses mentioned here? What race is not criminals? That same anology can be pointed right back in your own yard.
Double_Helix46
Posts: 466
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10/5/2012 7:18:34 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/5/2012 7:13:09 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
LOL, this is fantastic logic. The women decide to break free of sexual repression and so they willingly enter into sexual relations with Israelites. This means that they must be punished, but not the Israelites (who apparently are blameless for some unknown reason even though adultery is an act committed by two people). In return, the Israelites are rewarded because they are able to rape, plunder, and murder Moabites.

What a just individual this God is!

Willingly? They were enslaved by their own people(if they were originally moabites). Though the Bible is just to much to read to pull the truth out isn't it.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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10/5/2012 7:20:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/5/2012 7:15:43 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
At 10/5/2012 7:11:07 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 10/5/2012 12:27:59 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
At 10/5/2012 12:19:00 AM, s-anthony wrote:
The men of Israel have sex with the Moabite women. This angers God; so, he has the Israelites go to war, against the Moabites. The Israelites slaughter the men of Moab and, then, bring the women and children to Moses; and, this is what Moses says:

"Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

He has the women and little boys killed, but rewards the men by telling them, they may keep the virgin girls, for themselves.

Really your interpretation is extremely lacking. First, the moabite women intentionally offered themselves to the Israelite men for adultry. Why? Because the Moabite men told them to. They did this to cause anger from the Israelite God and so He would punish them. This is in the same passages your got your story from. In return God commanded them to destroy the specific Moabite tribe that did this. The Israelite men saved some of the women who did this after God ordered their destruction. The result was the Israelite men was killed along with the women. The young men, who no doubt were as wicked, were slayed as well. The children and untouched women were saved. You call it slavery. That is laughable. You skipped over the actions of these people. They were raptist, murders, adulters, wicked, enslaved many people and constantly attacked the Israelites. Yes, you skip over what you do not want to read.

These "people" committed crimes so it was justified to enslave the ones who did not (the virgin women)?

Since there are plenty of Caucasian murderers and rapists, I propose that you, DoubleHelix, be put to death so that the white race may pay for its crimes. Don't protest; your people are criminals.:

Ever read the verses mentioned here?
Yes
What race is not criminals? That same anology can be pointed right back in your own yard.
So what? My point is that it is unjust to persecute people for the crimes of others. Do you agree with this? If not, I urge you to live out the implications of your words and publicly submit yourself to the death penalty.

I was using sarcasm as an instrument to refute your contention, but that seems to have eluded you.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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10/5/2012 7:21:48 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/5/2012 7:18:34 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
At 10/5/2012 7:13:09 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
LOL, this is fantastic logic. The women decide to break free of sexual repression and so they willingly enter into sexual relations with Israelites. This means that they must be punished, but not the Israelites (who apparently are blameless for some unknown reason even though adultery is an act committed by two people). In return, the Israelites are rewarded because they are able to rape, plunder, and murder Moabites.

What a just individual this God is!

Willingly? They were enslaved by their own people(if they were originally moabites). Though the Bible is just to much to read to pull the truth out isn't it.

Do you have proof that they were enslaved? I see no such evidence. Moreover, even if they were enslaved, the crime is now worse because the Israelites participated in the rape of unwilling slave women and then slaughtered the Moabites as a means of punishing them for the crimes of the Jews.

Is that better for you? The Jews rape a girl and then kill her family to punish her for being raped?

That makes God more just, am I right?
Double_Helix46
Posts: 466
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10/5/2012 7:26:38 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/5/2012 7:20:00 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 10/5/2012 7:15:43 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
At 10/5/2012 7:11:07 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 10/5/2012 12:27:59 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
At 10/5/2012 12:19:00 AM, s-anthony wrote:
The men of Israel have sex with the Moabite women. This angers God; so, he has the Israelites go to war, against the Moabites. The Israelites slaughter the men of Moab and, then, bring the women and children to Moses; and, this is what Moses says:

"Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

He has the women and little boys killed, but rewards the men by telling them, they may keep the virgin girls, for themselves.

Really your interpretation is extremely lacking. First, the moabite women intentionally offered themselves to the Israelite men for adultry. Why? Because the Moabite men told them to. They did this to cause anger from the Israelite God and so He would punish them. This is in the same passages your got your story from. In return God commanded them to destroy the specific Moabite tribe that did this. The Israelite men saved some of the women who did this after God ordered their destruction. The result was the Israelite men was killed along with the women. The young men, who no doubt were as wicked, were slayed as well. The children and untouched women were saved. You call it slavery. That is laughable. You skipped over the actions of these people. They were raptist, murders, adulters, wicked, enslaved many people and constantly attacked the Israelites. Yes, you skip over what you do not want to read.

These "people" committed crimes so it was justified to enslave the ones who did not (the virgin women)?

Since there are plenty of Caucasian murderers and rapists, I propose that you, DoubleHelix, be put to death so that the white race may pay for its crimes. Don't protest; your people are criminals.:

Ever read the verses mentioned here?
Yes
What race is not criminals? That same anology can be pointed right back in your own yard.
So what? My point is that it is unjust to persecute people for the crimes of others. Do you agree with this? If not, I urge you to live out the implications of your words and publicly submit yourself to the death penalty.

I was using sarcasm as an instrument to refute your contention, but that seems to have eluded you.

Should I post every last verse to go over it with you? So what, you ask? Well no ones innocent. You say it is unjust to persecute people for others crimes. Well if you had read this scripture you would see the many things that the Moabites did and they were not innocent. You would also see that the Israelites were also punished. No one escaped judgement. Makes sense that the Israelites were God's people and are the only people who worshipped him as God. Nice sarcasm =)
Double_Helix46
Posts: 466
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10/5/2012 7:29:58 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/5/2012 7:21:48 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 10/5/2012 7:18:34 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
At 10/5/2012 7:13:09 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
LOL, this is fantastic logic. The women decide to break free of sexual repression and so they willingly enter into sexual relations with Israelites. This means that they must be punished, but not the Israelites (who apparently are blameless for some unknown reason even though adultery is an act committed by two people). In return, the Israelites are rewarded because they are able to rape, plunder, and murder Moabites.

What a just individual this God is!

Willingly? They were enslaved by their own people(if they were originally moabites). Though the Bible is just to much to read to pull the truth out isn't it.

Do you have proof that they were enslaved? I see no such evidence. Moreover, even if they were enslaved, the crime is now worse because the Israelites participated in the rape of unwilling slave women and then slaughtered the Moabites as a means of punishing them for the crimes of the Jews.

Is that better for you? The Jews rape a girl and then kill her family to punish her for being raped?

That makes God more just, am I right?

Are you kidding me? You are joking right? You are just pulling my chain. Who rapped who? The moabites rapped and enslaved numerous times in the Bible, sorry, you must have missed that. The Jews did not rape no one. The Moabite women gave themselves to the Israelites. That must have eluded you also. You also must have missed that ordanice set down by God for these people to the Israelites.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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10/5/2012 7:32:43 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/5/2012 7:29:58 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
At 10/5/2012 7:21:48 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 10/5/2012 7:18:34 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
At 10/5/2012 7:13:09 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
LOL, this is fantastic logic. The women decide to break free of sexual repression and so they willingly enter into sexual relations with Israelites. This means that they must be punished, but not the Israelites (who apparently are blameless for some unknown reason even though adultery is an act committed by two people). In return, the Israelites are rewarded because they are able to rape, plunder, and murder Moabites.

What a just individual this God is!

Willingly? They were enslaved by their own people(if they were originally moabites). Though the Bible is just to much to read to pull the truth out isn't it.

Do you have proof that they were enslaved? I see no such evidence. Moreover, even if they were enslaved, the crime is now worse because the Israelites participated in the rape of unwilling slave women and then slaughtered the Moabites as a means of punishing them for the crimes of the Jews.

Is that better for you? The Jews rape a girl and then kill her family to punish her for being raped?

That makes God more just, am I right?

Are you kidding me? You are joking right? You are just pulling my chain. Who rapped who? The moabites rapped and enslaved numerous times in the Bible, sorry, you must have missed that. The Jews did not rape no one. The Moabite women gave themselves to the Israelites. That must have eluded you also. You also must have missed that ordanice set down by God for these people to the Israelites.

This is absolutely false. You claimed that the women who "gave themselves" were Moabite slaves who were forced to do so by the Moabite men. Last time I checked, this is called sexual slavery. That means that they were not being raped by anybody with whom they had sex under the commands of their masters. The Israelites had sex with them and thus raped them.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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10/5/2012 7:35:51 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/5/2012 7:26:38 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
At 10/5/2012 7:20:00 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 10/5/2012 7:15:43 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
At 10/5/2012 7:11:07 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 10/5/2012 12:27:59 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
At 10/5/2012 12:19:00 AM, s-anthony wrote:
The men of Israel have sex with the Moabite women. This angers God; so, he has the Israelites go to war, against the Moabites. The Israelites slaughter the men of Moab and, then, bring the women and children to Moses; and, this is what Moses says:

"Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

He has the women and little boys killed, but rewards the men by telling them, they may keep the virgin girls, for themselves.

Really your interpretation is extremely lacking. First, the moabite women intentionally offered themselves to the Israelite men for adultry. Why? Because the Moabite men told them to. They did this to cause anger from the Israelite God and so He would punish them. This is in the same passages your got your story from. In return God commanded them to destroy the specific Moabite tribe that did this. The Israelite men saved some of the women who did this after God ordered their destruction. The result was the Israelite men was killed along with the women. The young men, who no doubt were as wicked, were slayed as well. The children and untouched women were saved. You call it slavery. That is laughable. You skipped over the actions of these people. They were raptist, murders, adulters, wicked, enslaved many people and constantly attacked the Israelites. Yes, you skip over what you do not want to read.

These "people" committed crimes so it was justified to enslave the ones who did not (the virgin women)?

Since there are plenty of Caucasian murderers and rapists, I propose that you, DoubleHelix, be put to death so that the white race may pay for its crimes. Don't protest; your people are criminals.:

Ever read the verses mentioned here?
Yes
What race is not criminals? That same anology can be pointed right back in your own yard.
So what? My point is that it is unjust to persecute people for the crimes of others. Do you agree with this? If not, I urge you to live out the implications of your words and publicly submit yourself to the death penalty.

I was using sarcasm as an instrument to refute your contention, but that seems to have eluded you.

Should I post every last verse to go over it with you?
Yes. If you make a claim that requires evidence, then you need to post that evidence. It is not my job to find your evidence for you.
So what, you ask? Well no ones innocent.
This justifies raping and enslaving the virgin women why?

If nobody is innocent, can we just do whatever we please to them? If so, I hope someone kills all of your children and you agree to let that individual off the hook.
You say it is unjust to persecute people for others crimes. Well if you had read this scripture you would see the many things that the Moabites did and they were not innocent.
It doesn't matter what the Moabites did. The virgin women did not do anything, so there was no cause for enslaving them and raping them. If every member of my family is a criminal and I am not, I should not be punished for their crimes.
You would also see that the Israelites were also punished. No one escaped judgement.
Yes, getting to enslave and rape Moabite girls after plundering their villages and killing their people was a great punishment.
Makes sense that the Israelites were God's people and are the only people who worshipped him as God. Nice sarcasm =)
So they had automatic license to do whatever they pleased?
Double_Helix46
Posts: 466
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10/5/2012 7:38:43 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/5/2012 7:32:43 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 10/5/2012 7:29:58 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
At 10/5/2012 7:21:48 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 10/5/2012 7:18:34 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
At 10/5/2012 7:13:09 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
LOL, this is fantastic logic. The women decide to break free of sexual repression and so they willingly enter into sexual relations with Israelites. This means that they must be punished, but not the Israelites (who apparently are blameless for some unknown reason even though adultery is an act committed by two people). In return, the Israelites are rewarded because they are able to rape, plunder, and murder Moabites.

What a just individual this God is!

Willingly? They were enslaved by their own people(if they were originally moabites). Though the Bible is just to much to read to pull the truth out isn't it.

Do you have proof that they were enslaved? I see no such evidence. Moreover, even if they were enslaved, the crime is now worse because the Israelites participated in the rape of unwilling slave women and then slaughtered the Moabites as a means of punishing them for the crimes of the Jews.

Is that better for you? The Jews rape a girl and then kill her family to punish her for being raped?

That makes God more just, am I right?

Are you kidding me? You are joking right? You are just pulling my chain. Who rapped who? The moabites rapped and enslaved numerous times in the Bible, sorry, you must have missed that. The Jews did not rape no one. The Moabite women gave themselves to the Israelites. That must have eluded you also. You also must have missed that ordanice set down by God for these people to the Israelites.

This is absolutely false. You claimed that the women who "gave themselves" were Moabite slaves who were forced to do so by the Moabite men. Last time I checked, this is called sexual slavery. That means that they were not being raped by anybody with whom they had sex under the commands of their masters. The Israelites had sex with them and thus raped them.

Did you not read your own post? You just said, true I mite add, that these women were slaves to the Moabites and maybe some, if not most, were actually Moabites themselves this we do not know. What we do know is that the Moabites conquered and took captives, I am assuming women is in there. You also stated, true I mite add, that these women were told by the Moabite men to give themselves to the Israelites. Then were you got me was, you called that rape by the Israelites. I am confused. Were do we get willing women ordered by their men, unto, Israelite being raptist?
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
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10/5/2012 7:41:45 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/5/2012 7:38:43 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
At 10/5/2012 7:32:43 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 10/5/2012 7:29:58 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
At 10/5/2012 7:21:48 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 10/5/2012 7:18:34 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
At 10/5/2012 7:13:09 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
LOL, this is fantastic logic. The women decide to break free of sexual repression and so they willingly enter into sexual relations with Israelites. This means that they must be punished, but not the Israelites (who apparently are blameless for some unknown reason even though adultery is an act committed by two people). In return, the Israelites are rewarded because they are able to rape, plunder, and murder Moabites.

What a just individual this God is!

Willingly? They were enslaved by their own people(if they were originally moabites). Though the Bible is just to much to read to pull the truth out isn't it.

Do you have proof that they were enslaved? I see no such evidence. Moreover, even if they were enslaved, the crime is now worse because the Israelites participated in the rape of unwilling slave women and then slaughtered the Moabites as a means of punishing them for the crimes of the Jews.

Is that better for you? The Jews rape a girl and then kill her family to punish her for being raped?

That makes God more just, am I right?

Are you kidding me? You are joking right? You are just pulling my chain. Who rapped who? The moabites rapped and enslaved numerous times in the Bible, sorry, you must have missed that. The Jews did not rape no one. The Moabite women gave themselves to the Israelites. That must have eluded you also. You also must have missed that ordanice set down by God for these people to the Israelites.

This is absolutely false. You claimed that the women who "gave themselves" were Moabite slaves who were forced to do so by the Moabite men. Last time I checked, this is called sexual slavery. That means that they were not being raped by anybody with whom they had sex under the commands of their masters. The Israelites had sex with them and thus raped them.

Did you not read your own post? You just said, true I mite add, that these women were slaves to the Moabites and maybe some, if not most, were actually Moabites themselves this we do not know. What we do know is that the Moabites conquered and took captives, I am assuming women is in there.
LOOOL. Female Moabite slaves took captives? Really? Do you honestly want to have a discussion about how much power females, let alone female slaves, had in the ancient world?
You also stated, true I mite add, that these women were told by the Moabite men to give themselves to the Israelites. Then were you got me was, you called that rape by the Israelites. I am confused. Were do we get willing women ordered by their men, unto, Israelite being raptist?

If a sexual slave is forced into having sex with another individual, both the client and the master are rapists because the sexual slave is being forced into the sexual relationship against her will.
Double_Helix46
Posts: 466
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10/5/2012 7:44:46 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Should I post every last verse to go over it with you?
Yes. If you make a claim that requires evidence, then you need to post that evidence. It is not my job to find your evidence for you.:
You are making the claim. The Bible speaks itself. You are claiming that the Israelites were raptist and murders. The proof is on you.
So what, you ask? Well no ones innocent.
This justifies raping and enslaving the virgin women why?:
No one was enslaved. No one was raped. Prove it.

If nobody is innocent, can we just do whatever we please to them?:
NO, you can not.
If so, I hope someone kills all of your children and you agree to let that individual off the hook.:
What a awful thing to say.
It doesn't matter what the Moabites did. The virgin women did not do anything, so there was no cause for enslaving them and raping them.:
Again, you must prove they were enslaved and raped.
Yes, getting to enslave and rape Moabite girls after plundering their villages and killing their people was a great punishment.:
You still have to show that they were enslaved and raped.
Makes sense that the Israelites were God's people and are the only people who worshipped him as God. Nice sarcasm =)
So they had automatic license to do whatever they pleased?:
No, it did not. They were actually held to higher standard.
Double_Helix46
Posts: 466
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10/5/2012 7:47:07 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/5/2012 7:41:45 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 10/5/2012 7:38:43 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
At 10/5/2012 7:32:43 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 10/5/2012 7:29:58 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
At 10/5/2012 7:21:48 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 10/5/2012 7:18:34 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
At 10/5/2012 7:13:09 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
LOL, this is fantastic logic. The women decide to break free of sexual repression and so they willingly enter into sexual relations with Israelites. This means that they must be punished, but not the Israelites (who apparently are blameless for some unknown reason even though adultery is an act committed by two people). In return, the Israelites are rewarded because they are able to rape, plunder, and murder Moabites.

What a just individual this God is!

Willingly? They were enslaved by their own people(if they were originally moabites). Though the Bible is just to much to read to pull the truth out isn't it.

Do you have proof that they were enslaved? I see no such evidence. Moreover, even if they were enslaved, the crime is now worse because the Israelites participated in the rape of unwilling slave women and then slaughtered the Moabites as a means of punishing them for the crimes of the Jews.

Is that better for you? The Jews rape a girl and then kill her family to punish her for being raped?

That makes God more just, am I right?

Are you kidding me? You are joking right? You are just pulling my chain. Who rapped who? The moabites rapped and enslaved numerous times in the Bible, sorry, you must have missed that. The Jews did not rape no one. The Moabite women gave themselves to the Israelites. That must have eluded you also. You also must have missed that ordanice set down by God for these people to the Israelites.

This is absolutely false. You claimed that the women who "gave themselves" were Moabite slaves who were forced to do so by the Moabite men. Last time I checked, this is called sexual slavery. That means that they were not being raped by anybody with whom they had sex under the commands of their masters. The Israelites had sex with them and thus raped them.

Did you not read your own post? You just said, true I mite add, that these women were slaves to the Moabites and maybe some, if not most, were actually Moabites themselves this we do not know. What we do know is that the Moabites conquered and took captives, I am assuming women is in there.
LOOOL. Female Moabite slaves took captives? Really? Do you honestly want to have a discussion about how much power females, let alone female slaves, had in the ancient world?:
You say, LOOOL, like you have any knowledge here. I did not say the women took captives. Read again please.
You also stated, true I mite add, that these women were told by the Moabite men to give themselves to the Israelites. Then were you got me was, you called that rape by the Israelites. I am confused. Were do we get willing women ordered by their men, unto, Israelite being raptist?

If a sexual slave is forced into having sex with another individual, both the client and the master are rapists because the sexual slave is being forced into the sexual relationship against her will.:
How do you suppse the Israelites knew that if the women offered themselves to them?
GenesisCreation
Posts: 496
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10/5/2012 7:47:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/5/2012 7:11:07 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 10/5/2012 12:27:59 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
At 10/5/2012 12:19:00 AM, s-anthony wrote:
The men of Israel have sex with the Moabite women. This angers God; so, he has the Israelites go to war, against the Moabites. The Israelites slaughter the men of Moab and, then, bring the women and children to Moses; and, this is what Moses says:

"Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

He has the women and little boys killed, but rewards the men by telling them, they may keep the virgin girls, for themselves.

Really your interpretation is extremely lacking. First, the moabite women intentionally offered themselves to the Israelite men for adultry. Why? Because the Moabite men told them to. They did this to cause anger from the Israelite God and so He would punish them. This is in the same passages your got your story from. In return God commanded them to destroy the specific Moabite tribe that did this. The Israelite men saved some of the women who did this after God ordered their destruction. The result was the Israelite men was killed along with the women. The young men, who no doubt were as wicked, were slayed as well. The children and untouched women were saved. You call it slavery. That is laughable. You skipped over the actions of these people. They were raptist, murders, adulters, wicked, enslaved many people and constantly attacked the Israelites. Yes, you skip over what you do not want to read.

These "people" committed crimes so it was justified to enslave the ones who did not (the virgin women)?

Since there are plenty of Caucasian murderers and rapists, I propose that you, DoubleHelix, be put to death so that the white race may pay for its crimes. Don't protest; your people are criminals.

You make a logical error. We're speaking of a singular tribe that tested the patience of God for many generations. You've given a total value to them by calling them a race. It's micro vs macro. This wasn't ethnic cleansing. This was war.
Also, virgin =/= innocent.
Um....You've got a log in your eye.
"I would be suspicious of an argument without any concessions." - John Dickson
GenesisCreation
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10/5/2012 7:48:11 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/5/2012 7:11:16 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 10/5/2012 6:57:37 AM, medic0506 wrote:
Point??

God is unjust.

That presupposes that you are just. Logical error.
Um....You've got a log in your eye.
"I would be suspicious of an argument without any concessions." - John Dickson
GenesisCreation
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10/5/2012 7:50:13 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/5/2012 7:13:09 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
LOL, this is fantastic logic. The women decide to break free of sexual repression and so they willingly enter into sexual relations with Israelites.

Freedom from Sexual repression? Where did you find that this was their intention?

This means that they must be punished, but not the Israelites (who apparently are blameless for some unknown reason even though adultery is an act committed by two people). In return, the Israelites are rewarded because they are able to rape, plunder, and murder Moabites.

They did not rape them. They married them. It's called arranged marriage and it's only a problem through the lense of western morality.

What a just individual this God is!

Amen.
Um....You've got a log in your eye.
"I would be suspicious of an argument without any concessions." - John Dickson
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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10/5/2012 8:37:28 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/5/2012 7:11:16 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 10/5/2012 6:57:37 AM, medic0506 wrote:
Point??

God is unjust.

By who's moral standard??
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,926
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10/5/2012 9:10:19 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Wow, paul copan and william lane craig would be proud of you guys....

Smh
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
DeFool
Posts: 626
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10/5/2012 9:17:40 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/5/2012 12:19:00 AM, s-anthony wrote:
The men of Israel have sex with the Moabite women. This angers God; so, he has the Israelites go to war, against the Moabites. The Israelites slaughter the men of Moab and, then, bring the women and children to Moses; and, this is what Moses says:

"Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

He has the women and little boys killed, but rewards the men by telling them, they may keep the virgin girls, for themselves.

We should remember that this action makes Moses and the pre-born Jesus more prolific child rapists than even the Pope himself.

It also makes the 'normal' example of biblical marriage identical to kidnapping and sexual slavery.
MouthWash
Posts: 2,607
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10/5/2012 9:21:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/5/2012 7:11:07 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 10/5/2012 12:27:59 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
At 10/5/2012 12:19:00 AM, s-anthony wrote:
The men of Israel have sex with the Moabite women. This angers God; so, he has the Israelites go to war, against the Moabites. The Israelites slaughter the men of Moab and, then, bring the women and children to Moses; and, this is what Moses says:

"Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."

He has the women and little boys killed, but rewards the men by telling them, they may keep the virgin girls, for themselves.

Really your interpretation is extremely lacking. First, the moabite women intentionally offered themselves to the Israelite men for adultry. Why? Because the Moabite men told them to. They did this to cause anger from the Israelite God and so He would punish them. This is in the same passages your got your story from. In return God commanded them to destroy the specific Moabite tribe that did this. The Israelite men saved some of the women who did this after God ordered their destruction. The result was the Israelite men was killed along with the women. The young men, who no doubt were as wicked, were slayed as well. The children and untouched women were saved. You call it slavery. That is laughable. You skipped over the actions of these people. They were raptist, murders, adulters, wicked, enslaved many people and constantly attacked the Israelites. Yes, you skip over what you do not want to read.

These "people" committed crimes so it was justified to enslave the ones who did not (the virgin women)?

Since there are plenty of Caucasian murderers and rapists, I propose that you, DoubleHelix, be put to death so that the white race may pay for its crimes. Don't protest; your people are criminals.

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"Well, that gives whole new meaning to my assassination. If I was going to die anyway, perhaps I should leave the Bolsheviks' descendants some Christmas cookies instead of breaking their dishes and vodka bottles in their sleep." -Tsar Nicholas II (YYW)
s-anthony
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10/5/2012 9:57:55 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/5/2012 12:27:59 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
Really your interpretation is extremely lacking. First, the moabite women intentionally offered themselves to the Israelite men for adultry. Why? Because the Moabite men told them to.

Ok. I get it. The Moabite women were forced to have sex with the Israelite men; so, the men could be seen as adulterers. Forgive me. Now, that you put it that way, it seems only justifiable for the Israelites to annihilate the entire group of people.

I, too, had sex with someone to whom I wasn't married. Do you think I should, also, seek that person out and totally destroy both him and his family?

They did this to cause anger from the Israelite God and so He would punish them. This is in the same passages your got your story from. In return God commanded them to destroy the specific Moabite tribe that did this. The Israelite men saved some of the women who did this after God ordered their destruction. The result was the Israelite men was killed along with the women. The young men, who no doubt were as wicked, were slayed as well. The children and untouched women were saved. You call it slavery. That is laughable. You skipped over the actions of these people. They were raptist, murders, adulters, wicked, enslaved many people and constantly attacked the Israelites. Yes, you skip over what you do not want to read.

Please, cite the passage in which the Israelite men were slaughtered. Because, in this passage it doesn't say that; it only says they were rewarded with the virgin girls.

So, because the women had forced sex with the Israelite men, it was justifiable to kill not only them but to kill and enslave innocent children, also?
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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10/5/2012 1:26:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
From an article by Dave Miller at Apologetics Press...

"If the critic would take the time to study the Bible and make an honest evaluation of the principles of God"s justice, wrath, and love, he would see the perfect and harmonious interplay between them. God"s vengeance is not like the impulsive, irrational, emotional outbursts of pagan deities or human beings. He is infinite in all His attributes and thus perfect in justice, love, and anger. Just as God"s ultimate and final condemnation of sinners to eternal punishment will be just and appropriate, so the temporal judgment of wicked people in the Old Testament was ethical and fair. We human beings do not have an accurate handle on the gravity of sin and the deplorable nature of evil and wickedness. Human sentimentality is hardly a qualified measuring stick for divine truth and spiritual reality.

How incredibly ironic that the atheist, the agnostic, the skeptic, and the liberal all attempt to stand in judgment upon the ethical behavior of God when, if one embraces their position, there is no such thing as an absolute, objective, authoritative standard by which to pronounce anything right or wrong. As the French existentialist philosopher, Sartre, admitted: "Everything is indeed permitted if God does not exist.... Nor...are we provided with any values or commands that could legitimize our behavior" (1961, p. 485). The atheist and agnostic have absolutely no platform on which to stand to make moral or ethical distinctions"except as the result of purely personal taste. The mere fact that they concede the existence of objective evil is an unwitting concession there is a God Who has established an absolute framework of moral judgments.

The facts of the matter are that the Canaanites, whom God"s people were to destroy, were destroyed for their wickedness (Deuteronomy 9:4; 18:9-12; Leviticus 18:24-25,27-28). Canaanite culture and religion in the second millennium B.C. were polluted, corrupt, and perverted. No doubt the people were physically diseased from their illicit behavior. There simply was no viable solution to their condition except destruction. Their moral depravity was "full" (Genesis 15:16). They had slumped to such an immoral, depraved state, with no hope of recovery, that their existence on this Earth had to be terminated"just like in Noah"s day when God waited while Noah preached for years, but was unable to turn the world"s population from its wickedness (Genesis 6:3,5-7; 1 Peter 3:20; 2 Peter 3:5-9). Including the children in the destruction of such populations actually spared them from a worse condition"that of being reared to be as wicked as their parents and thus face eternal punishment. All persons who die in childhood, according to the Bible, are ushered to Paradise and will ultimately reside in Heaven. Children who have parents who are evil must naturally suffer innocently while on Earth (e.g., Numbers 14:33).

Those who disagree with God"s annihilation of the wicked in the Old Testament have the same liberal attitude that has come to prevail in America just in the last half century. That attitude has typically opposed capital punishment, as well as the corporal punishment of children. Such people simply cannot see the rightness of evildoers being punished by execution or physical pain. Nevertheless, their view is skewed"and the rest of us are being forced to live with the results of their warped thinking: undisciplined, out-of-control children are wreaking havoc on our society by perpetrating crime to historically, all-time high levels.

Those who reject the ethics of God"s destructive activity in the Old Testament, to be consistent, must reject Jesus and the New Testament. Over and over again, Jesus and the New Testament writers endorsed and defended such activity (e.g., Luke 13:1-9; 12:5; 17:29-32; 10:12; Hebrews 10:26-31). The Bible provides the only logical, sensible, meaningful, consistent explanation regarding the principles of retribution, punishment, and the conditions under which physical life may be extinguished."

http://www.apologeticspress.org...
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
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10/5/2012 1:35:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/5/2012 1:26:43 PM, medic0506 wrote:
How incredibly ironic that the atheist, the agnostic, the skeptic, and the liberal all attempt to stand in judgment upon the ethical behavior of God when, if one embraces their position, there is no such thing as an absolute, objective, authoritative standard by which to pronounce anything right or wrong. As the French existentialist philosopher, Sartre, admitted: "Everything is indeed permitted if God does not exist....

Fvcking idiots.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,926
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10/5/2012 2:08:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/5/2012 1:26:43 PM, medic0506 wrote:
From an article by Dave Miller at Apologetics Press...

"If the critic would take the time to study the Bible and make an honest evaluation of the principles of God"s justice, wrath, and love, he would see the perfect and harmonious interplay between them. God"s vengeance is not like the impulsive, irrational, emotional outbursts of pagan deities or human beings. He is infinite in all His attributes and thus perfect in justice, love, and anger. Just as God"s ultimate and final condemnation of sinners to eternal punishment will be just and appropriate, so the temporal judgment of wicked people in the Old Testament was ethical and fair. We human beings do not have an accurate handle on the gravity of sin and the deplorable nature of evil and wickedness. Human sentimentality is hardly a qualified measuring stick for divine truth and spiritual reality.

How incredibly ironic that the atheist, the agnostic, the skeptic, and the liberal all attempt to stand in judgment upon the ethical behavior of God when, if one embraces their position, there is no such thing as an absolute, objective, authoritative standard by which to pronounce anything right or wrong. As the French existentialist philosopher, Sartre, admitted: "Everything is indeed permitted if God does not exist.... Nor...are we provided with any values or commands that could legitimize our behavior" (1961, p. 485). The atheist and agnostic have absolutely no platform on which to stand to make moral or ethical distinctions"except as the result of purely personal taste. The mere fact that they concede the existence of objective evil is an unwitting concession there is a God Who has established an absolute framework of moral judgments.

The facts of the matter are that the Canaanites, whom God"s people were to destroy, were destroyed for their wickedness (Deuteronomy 9:4; 18:9-12; Leviticus 18:24-25,27-28). Canaanite culture and religion in the second millennium B.C. were polluted, corrupt, and perverted. No doubt the people were physically diseased from their illicit behavior. There simply was no viable solution to their condition except destruction. Their moral depravity was "full" (Genesis 15:16). They had slumped to such an immoral, depraved state, with no hope of recovery, that their existence on this Earth had to be terminated"just like in Noah"s day when God waited while Noah preached for years, but was unable to turn the world"s population from its wickedness (Genesis 6:3,5-7; 1 Peter 3:20; 2 Peter 3:5-9). Including the children in the destruction of such populations actually spared them from a worse condition"that of being reared to be as wicked as their parents and thus face eternal punishment. All persons who die in childhood, according to the Bible, are ushered to Paradise and will ultimately reside in Heaven. Children who have parents who are evil must naturally suffer innocently while on Earth (e.g., Numbers 14:33).

Those who disagree with God"s annihilation of the wicked in the Old Testament have the same liberal attitude that has come to prevail in America just in the last half century. That attitude has typically opposed capital punishment, as well as the corporal punishment of children. Such people simply cannot see the rightness of evildoers being punished by execution or physical pain. Nevertheless, their view is skewed"and the rest of us are being forced to live with the results of their warped thinking: undisciplined, out-of-control children are wreaking havoc on our society by perpetrating crime to historically, all-time high levels.


Those who reject the ethics of God"s destructive activity in the Old Testament, to be consistent, must reject Jesus and the New Testament. Over and over again, Jesus and the New Testament writers endorsed and defended such activity (e.g., Luke 13:1-9; 12:5; 17:29-32; 10:12; Hebrews 10:26-31). The Bible provides the only logical, sensible, meaningful, consistent explanation regarding the principles of retribution,
punishment, and the conditions under which physical life may be extinguished."

http://www.apologeticspress.org...

I'm not overly impressed with apologia for genocide....
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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10/5/2012 3:08:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/5/2012 2:08:39 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/5/2012 1:26:43 PM, medic0506 wrote:
From an article by Dave Miller at Apologetics Press...

"If the critic would take the time to study the Bible and make an honest evaluation of the principles of God"s justice, wrath, and love, he would see the perfect and harmonious interplay between them. God"s vengeance is not like the impulsive, irrational, emotional outbursts of pagan deities or human beings. He is infinite in all His attributes and thus perfect in justice, love, and anger. Just as God"s ultimate and final condemnation of sinners to eternal punishment will be just and appropriate, so the temporal judgment of wicked people in the Old Testament was ethical and fair. We human beings do not have an accurate handle on the gravity of sin and the deplorable nature of evil and wickedness. Human sentimentality is hardly a qualified measuring stick for divine truth and spiritual reality.

How incredibly ironic that the atheist, the agnostic, the skeptic, and the liberal all attempt to stand in judgment upon the ethical behavior of God when, if one embraces their position, there is no such thing as an absolute, objective, authoritative standard by which to pronounce anything right or wrong. As the French existentialist philosopher, Sartre, admitted: "Everything is indeed permitted if God does not exist.... Nor...are we provided with any values or commands that could legitimize our behavior" (1961, p. 485). The atheist and agnostic have absolutely no platform on which to stand to make moral or ethical distinctions"except as the result of purely personal taste. The mere fact that they concede the existence of objective evil is an unwitting concession there is a God Who has established an absolute framework of moral judgments.

The facts of the matter are that the Canaanites, whom God"s people were to destroy, were destroyed for their wickedness (Deuteronomy 9:4; 18:9-12; Leviticus 18:24-25,27-28). Canaanite culture and religion in the second millennium B.C. were polluted, corrupt, and perverted. No doubt the people were physically diseased from their illicit behavior. There simply was no viable solution to their condition except destruction. Their moral depravity was "full" (Genesis 15:16). They had slumped to such an immoral, depraved state, with no hope of recovery, that their existence on this Earth had to be terminated"just like in Noah"s day when God waited while Noah preached for years, but was unable to turn the world"s population from its wickedness (Genesis 6:3,5-7; 1 Peter 3:20; 2 Peter 3:5-9). Including the children in the destruction of such populations actually spared them from a worse condition"that of being reared to be as wicked as their parents and thus face eternal punishment. All persons who die in childhood, according to the Bible, are ushered to Paradise and will ultimately reside in Heaven. Children who have parents who are evil must naturally suffer innocently while on Earth (e.g., Numbers 14:33).

Those who disagree with God"s annihilation of the wicked in the Old Testament have the same liberal attitude that has come to prevail in America just in the last half century. That attitude has typically opposed capital punishment, as well as the corporal punishment of children. Such people simply cannot see the rightness of evildoers being punished by execution or physical pain. Nevertheless, their view is skewed"and the rest of us are being forced to live with the results of their warped thinking: undisciplined, out-of-control children are wreaking havoc on our society by perpetrating crime to historically, all-time high levels.


Those who reject the ethics of God"s destructive activity in the Old Testament, to be consistent, must reject Jesus and the New Testament. Over and over again, Jesus and the New Testament writers endorsed and defended such activity (e.g., Luke 13:1-9; 12:5; 17:29-32; 10:12; Hebrews 10:26-31). The Bible provides the only logical, sensible, meaningful, consistent explanation regarding the principles of retribution,
punishment, and the conditions under which physical life may be extinguished."

http://www.apologeticspress.org...

I'm not overly impressed with apologia for genocide....

I like Matt Slick's answer for this issue...

So??