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"Unseat pope; church is authoritarian"

popculturepooka
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10/7/2012 1:24:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
http://www.rawstory.com...

Hans Kung (a prominent Catholic theologian) has called for the pope to be unseated and radical reform to be forced upon the Vatican.

Thoughts?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
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annanicole
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10/7/2012 1:29:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/7/2012 1:24:22 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
http://www.rawstory.com...

Hans Kung (a prominent Catholic theologian) has called for the pope to be unseated and radical reform to be forced upon the Vatican.

Thoughts?

Waste of time. The Roman Catholic Church is irreformable (<-- is that a word?). Unless I am mistaken, "reformation of the RCC" has been attempted many times with miniscule success.

If Mr. Kung is a Roman Catholic (and I'll take your word for it), then my prediction is that the Roman Catholic church will strip him of his privileges and excommunicate him, if it already hasn't. That's what they do to anyone within their ranks who publicly disagrees with them AND questions their authority. They will tolerate dissent, up to a point, but will to tolerate anyone or anything who denies their authority. "Authority" is a big word with them.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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10/7/2012 1:55:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
He's not a theologian anymore; he was stripped of that already for his objections to the infallibility of the Holy Father.

The next step should be to excommunicate him, and prohibit him from performing in any priestly capacity.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
popculturepooka
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10/7/2012 1:56:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/7/2012 1:29:20 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 10/7/2012 1:24:22 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
http://www.rawstory.com...

Hans Kung (a prominent Catholic theologian) has called for the pope to be unseated and radical reform to be forced upon the Vatican.

Thoughts?

Waste of time. The Roman Catholic Church is irreformable (<-- is that a word?). Unless I am mistaken, "reformation of the RCC" has been attempted many times with miniscule success.

If Mr. Kung is a Roman Catholic (and I'll take your word for it), then my prediction is that the Roman Catholic church will strip him of his privileges and excommunicate him, if it already hasn't. That's what they do to anyone within their ranks who publicly disagrees with them AND questions their authority. They will tolerate dissent, up to a point, but will to tolerate anyone or anything who denies their authority. "Authority" is a big word with them.

He's been "anathemized" for a long time (since the 80's, I believe) for questioning papal infallibility. He's not allowed to teach Catholic theology, but is still a priest.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
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Double_Helix46
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10/7/2012 2:02:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/7/2012 1:24:22 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
http://www.rawstory.com...

Hans Kung (a prominent Catholic theologian) has called for the pope to be unseated and radical reform to be forced upon the Vatican.

Thoughts?

The whole theology need's reforming.
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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10/7/2012 2:03:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/7/2012 2:02:54 PM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
The whole theology need's reforming.

You need reforming.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
Double_Helix46
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10/7/2012 2:10:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/7/2012 2:03:56 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 10/7/2012 2:02:54 PM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
The whole theology need's reforming.

You need reforming.

Don't we all? If we are perfect in our way's what would be the need of Jesus Christ. Infalliability by a man or a church's part, is non-existant. That is claim and assertion by people who want power and dominion. Should overlook the many falliable errors committed by the church and Pope in the thousands of years of their existance? Should we overlook the Bible? Should we overlook the testimony of the apostles, that all who are saved are saints and preist?
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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10/7/2012 2:13:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/7/2012 2:10:08 PM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
Don't we all? If we are perfect in our way's what would be the need of Jesus Christ. Infalliability by a man or a church's part, is non-existant. That is claim and assertion by people who want power and dominion. Should overlook the many falliable errors committed by the church and Pope in the thousands of years of their existance? Should we overlook the Bible? Should we overlook the testimony of the apostles, that all who are saved are saints and preist?

lol. That was just meant to be a stupid jab. No need to make an actual response.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
Wnope
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10/7/2012 2:24:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/7/2012 1:24:22 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
http://www.rawstory.com...

Hans Kung (a prominent Catholic theologian) has called for the pope to be unseated and radical reform to be forced upon the Vatican.

Thoughts?

So.....he's a Protestant?
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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10/7/2012 2:26:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/7/2012 2:20:07 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Christianity is authoritarian.

Exactly.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
popculturepooka
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10/7/2012 2:32:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/7/2012 2:26:40 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 10/7/2012 2:20:07 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Christianity is authoritarian.

Exactly.

Meh, I would say it's authoritative, not authoritarian.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
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Double_Helix46
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10/7/2012 2:34:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/7/2012 2:13:07 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 10/7/2012 2:10:08 PM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
Don't we all? If we are perfect in our way's what would be the need of Jesus Christ. Infalliability by a man or a church's part, is non-existant. That is claim and assertion by people who want power and dominion. Should overlook the many falliable errors committed by the church and Pope in the thousands of years of their existance? Should we overlook the Bible? Should we overlook the testimony of the apostles, that all who are saved are saints and preist?

lol. That was just meant to be a stupid jab. No need to make an actual response.

No. It is flatout honesty. Answer the questions and use the scriptures to do so.
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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10/7/2012 2:54:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/7/2012 2:34:38 PM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
At 10/7/2012 2:13:07 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 10/7/2012 2:10:08 PM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
Don't we all? If we are perfect in our way's what would be the need of Jesus Christ. Infalliability by a man or a church's part, is non-existant. That is claim and assertion by people who want power and dominion. Should overlook the many falliable errors committed by the church and Pope in the thousands of years of their existance? Should we overlook the Bible? Should we overlook the testimony of the apostles, that all who are saved are saints and preist?

lol. That was just meant to be a stupid jab. No need to make an actual response.

No. It is flatout honesty. Answer the questions and use the scriptures to do so.

Why?
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
Double_Helix46
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10/7/2012 3:01:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/7/2012 2:54:05 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 10/7/2012 2:34:38 PM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
At 10/7/2012 2:13:07 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 10/7/2012 2:10:08 PM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
Don't we all? If we are perfect in our way's what would be the need of Jesus Christ. Infalliability by a man or a church's part, is non-existant. That is claim and assertion by people who want power and dominion. Should overlook the many falliable errors committed by the church and Pope in the thousands of years of their existance? Should we overlook the Bible? Should we overlook the testimony of the apostles, that all who are saved are saints and preist?

lol. That was just meant to be a stupid jab. No need to make an actual response.

No. It is flatout honesty. Answer the questions and use the scriptures to do so.

Why?

You prove that point!
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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10/7/2012 3:02:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/7/2012 3:01:34 PM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
You prove that point!

I'm not going to prove why I should answer questions I see no need to answer.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
Double_Helix46
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10/7/2012 3:03:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/7/2012 3:02:13 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 10/7/2012 3:01:34 PM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
You prove that point!

I'm not going to prove why I should answer questions I see no need to answer.

You can not answer them with scripture be honest now.
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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10/7/2012 3:05:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/7/2012 3:03:28 PM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
You can not answer them with scripture be honest now.

None of your questions have much relation to scripture at all.

I see no need to answer questions such as "Should overlook the many falliable errors committed by the church and Pope in the thousands of years of their existance?" with the scriptures.

You're obviously asking me charged rhetorical questions in a transparent assault on the Church. Don't deny it.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
annanicole
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10/7/2012 3:57:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
(Being totally serious without my usual cynicism and sarcasm)

Anyone who doubts the exact position of the Roman Catholic Church concerning authority, dissent, church and state, etc should take twenty or thirty minutes and read:

http://www.papalencyclicals.net...

This is the famous (or infamous) Syllabus of Errors proclaimed by that infallible papa, Pius IX. It enumerates errors and each should be read as, "It is a grave error and anathema to believe ...." Here you go:

It is a grave error and anathema to believe .... "every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true."

No need in raising the flag and proclaiming "religious freedom" if that's what you believe, is there?

It is a grave error and anathema to believe .... "the Church has not the power of defining dogmatically that the religion of the Catholic Church is the only true religion."

Uh-huh. Preach on, Brother Pius!

It is a grave error and anathema to believe .... Roman pontiffs and ecumenical councils have wandered outside the limits of their powers, have usurped the rights of princes, and have even erred in defining matters of faith and morals.

So if you think the popes have ever usurped the authority of any civil government, you're accursed. Umm ... count me as accursed.

It is a grave error and anathema to believe .... The Church has not the power of using force, nor has she any temporal power, direct or indirect.

You see, the Roman Catholic church claims the right to wage war - and has done so.

It is a grave error and anathema to believe .... In the case of conflicting laws enacted by the two powers, the civil law prevails.

And what's the alternative? Here it is: if the law of the land, of the United States, conflicts with the rules of the Roman Catholic church, the laws and rules of the Roman Catholic church supercede the laws of the United States. What other conclusion is there?

It is a grave error and anathema to believe .... The Church ought to be separated from the .State, and the State from the Church.

We might try consulting the First Amendment at this point.

It is a grave error and anathema to believe .... The form of solemnizing marriage prescribed by the Council of Trent, under pain of nullity, does not bind in cases where the civil law lays down another form, and declares that when this new form is used the marriage shall be valid.

So (1) if civil law, i. e. the laws of the United States, prescribes any form of marriage other than according to the Trent Council and (2) the form thus authorized by civil law is utilized, then (3) the marriage is not binding and subject to nullity. So about half of the married couples really aren't married?

Anyway, for those who are interested, including Catholics, I thought I'd post the reference and a few examples. Sorry about the bolding - reminds me of DogKnox.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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10/7/2012 4:10:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/7/2012 3:57:24 PM, annanicole wrote:
(Being totally serious without my usual cynicism and sarcasm)

Oh you <3

Anyone who doubts the exact position of the Roman Catholic Church concerning authority, dissent, church and state, etc should take twenty or thirty minutes and read:

http://www.papalencyclicals.net...

Too lazy.

This is the famous (or infamous) Syllabus of Errors proclaimed by that infallible papa, Pius IX. It enumerates errors and each should be read as, "It is a grave error and anathema to believe ...." Here you go:

It is a grave error and anathema to believe .... "every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true."

No need in raising the flag and proclaiming "religious freedom" if that's what you believe, is there?

I think this is more a condemnation of just saying "Well, you can follow any old religion you like, they're all just as good". Sounds a bit harsh, though.

It is a grave error and anathema to believe .... "the Church has not the power of defining dogmatically that the religion of the Catholic Church is the only true religion."

Uh-huh. Preach on, Brother Pius!

You mean "Blessed Pius XI", don't you? No, I can tell you don't. Anyhoo, I see what you meant about "without my usual cynicism or sarcasm".

It is a grave error and anathema to believe .... Roman pontiffs and ecumenical councils have wandered outside the limits of their powers, have usurped the rights of princes, and have even erred in defining matters of faith and morals.

So if you think the popes have ever usurped the authority of any civil government, you're accursed. Umm ... count me as accursed.

Interesting. I'm not sure about the "usurping rights of princes part". But okay, be accursed if that's what you want.

It is a grave error and anathema to believe .... The Church has not the power of using force, nor has she any temporal power, direct or indirect.

You see, the Roman Catholic church claims the right to wage war - and has done so.

Nothing wrong with that.

It is a grave error and anathema to believe .... In the case of conflicting laws enacted by the two powers, the civil law prevails.

And what's the alternative? Here it is: if the law of the land, of the United States, conflicts with the rules of the Roman Catholic church, the laws and rules of the Roman Catholic church supercede the laws of the United States. What other conclusion is there?

That's not a problem either.

It is a grave error and anathema to believe .... The Church ought to be separated from the .State, and the State from the Church.

We might try consulting the First Amendment at this point.

You might, but Blessed Pius IX already let you know what he thought about civil law conflicting with the Church.

It is a grave error and anathema to believe .... The form of solemnizing marriage prescribed by the Council of Trent, under pain of nullity, does not bind in cases where the civil law lays down another form, and declares that when this new form is used the marriage shall be valid.

So (1) if civil law, i. e. the laws of the United States, prescribes any form of marriage other than according to the Trent Council and (2) the form thus authorized by civil law is utilized, then (3) the marriage is not binding and subject to nullity. So about half of the married couples really aren't married?

Yes.

Anyway, for those who are interested, including Catholics, I thought I'd post the reference and a few examples. Sorry about the bolding - reminds me of DogKnox.

How interesting. I will need to study this further.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
annanicole
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10/7/2012 4:25:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/7/2012 4:10:40 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 10/7/2012 3:57:24 PM, annanicole wrote:
(Being totally serious without my usual cynicism and sarcasm)

Oh you <3

Anyone who doubts the exact position of the Roman Catholic Church concerning authority, dissent, church and state, etc should take twenty or thirty minutes and read:

http://www.papalencyclicals.net...

Too lazy.

This is the famous (or infamous) Syllabus of Errors proclaimed by that infallible papa, Pius IX. It enumerates errors and each should be read as, "It is a grave error and anathema to believe ...." Here you go:

It is a grave error and anathema to believe .... "every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true."

No need in raising the flag and proclaiming "religious freedom" if that's what you believe, is there?

I think this is more a condemnation of just saying "Well, you can follow any old religion you like, they're all just as good". Sounds a bit harsh, though.

Well, you CAN follow any old religion you like. That's your right as a United States citizen - whether papa likes it or not. And apparently he does not.

It is a grave error and anathema to believe .... "the Church has not the power of defining dogmatically that the religion of the Catholic Church is the only true religion."

Uh-huh. Preach on, Brother Pius!

You mean "Blessed Pius XI", don't you? No, I can tell you don't.

Actually, I didn't even mean "Brother".

Anyhoo, I see what you meant about "without my usual cynicism or sarcasm".

Of course!

It is a grave error and anathema to believe .... Roman pontiffs and ecumenical councils have wandered outside the limits of their powers, have usurped the rights of princes, and have even erred in defining matters of faith and morals.

So if you think the popes have ever usurped the authority of any civil government, you're accursed. Umm ... count me as accursed.

Interesting. I'm not sure about the "usurping rights of princes part". But okay, be accursed if that's what you want.

If I become accursed by believing that who serves as the king of England is no concern of papa's, then "accursed" is exactly what I want.

It is a grave error and anathema to believe .... The Church has not the power of using force, nor has she any temporal power, direct or indirect.

You see, the Roman Catholic church claims the right to wage war - and has done so.

Nothing wrong with that.

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."

Jesus, in effect, told his own followers not to fight in defense of Him. Yet Catholic have in fact exterminated entire populations who simply rejected the authority of papa.


It is a grave error and anathema to believe .... In the case of conflicting laws enacted by the two powers, the civil law prevails.

And what's the alternative? Here it is: if the law of the land, of the United States, conflicts with the rules of the Roman Catholic church, the laws and rules of the Roman Catholic church supercede the laws of the United States. What other conclusion is there?

That's not a problem either.

It is if you are a girl on birth control in any form.

It is a grave error and anathema to believe .... The Church ought to be separated from the .State, and the State from the Church.

We might try consulting the First Amendment at this point.

You might, but Blessed Pius IX already let you know what he thought about civil law conflicting with the Church.

Yep, he did. And the cardinals and others agreed with him. And anyone who thinks otherwise is accursed and in grave error. No wonder people rejected his pretensions.

It is a grave error and anathema to believe .... The form of solemnizing marriage prescribed by the Council of Trent, under pain of nullity, does not bind in cases where the civil law lays down another form, and declares that when this new form is used the marriage shall be valid.

So (1) if civil law, i. e. the laws of the United States, prescribes any form of marriage other than according to the Trent Council and (2) the form thus authorized by civil law is utilized, then (3) the marriage is not binding and subject to nullity. So about half of the married couples really aren't married?

Yes.

Well, not only that - but we are accursed for believing otherwise.

Anyway, for those who are interested, including Catholics, I thought I'd post the reference and a few examples. Sorry about the bolding - reminds me of DogKnox.

How interesting. I will need to study this further.

I wish all Catholics would read it about once weekly. They'd understand that the "bashing" (as they call it) is not at all against individual Catholics. It is against a system which by its own statements - again and again - shows itself to be un-American and anti-American. If they could, they would control the military ... the schools ... and stop people from practicing the religion of their choice. Heck, they've tried to do just that throughout history.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Wallstreetatheist
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10/7/2012 9:57:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/7/2012 7:47:54 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I love people like that.

He could just leave Catholicism. But no. He wants to change it.

He wants to change the institution that apologized for what it did to Galileo 350 years after the fact? K.
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THEBOMB
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10/7/2012 10:00:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/7/2012 9:57:08 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 10/7/2012 7:47:54 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I love people like that.

He could just leave Catholicism. But no. He wants to change it.

He wants to change the institution that apologized for what it did to Galileo 350 years after the fact? K.

At least it apologized. Besides, what's wrong with change?
FREEDO
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10/7/2012 10:06:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/7/2012 10:00:54 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
At 10/7/2012 9:57:08 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 10/7/2012 7:47:54 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I love people like that.

He could just leave Catholicism. But no. He wants to change it.

He wants to change the institution that apologized for what it did to Galileo 350 years after the fact? K.

At least it apologized. Besides, what's wrong with change?

At least the rapist apologized 30 years later. Now he rapes much fewer people.
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THEBOMB
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10/7/2012 10:08:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/7/2012 10:06:09 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 10/7/2012 10:00:54 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
At 10/7/2012 9:57:08 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 10/7/2012 7:47:54 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I love people like that.

He could just leave Catholicism. But no. He wants to change it.

He wants to change the institution that apologized for what it did to Galileo 350 years after the fact? K.

At least it apologized. Besides, what's wrong with change?

At least the rapist apologized 30 years later. Now he rapes much fewer people.

Apology is better than no apology. And less is better than more. 0 would be the ideal, but we don't live in an idealistic world.