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Why does God hate babies who have not sinned?

GreatestIam
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10/10/2012 2:41:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Why does God hate babies who have not sinned?

Scriptures indicate that God knows that babies in the womb have not done anything good or evil. They also indicate that God hates some babies even while in the womb and innocent. It is also said that God creates us and our characters. Our characters, as we evolve, cannot help but do evil. God then is responsible for the evil that we will do as he has created our natures. Natures that we cannot help but follow.

We can blame our free will and the choices we make for the evil that we do but this does not explain why our God created natures decide to do evil. Theistic evolutionists try to explain this paradox but the average literalist or fundamental Christian does not follow their reasoning.

We have no choice and no free will to deviate from our God given sin nature and God would know this as it is was all planned. Jesus was to die even before man was created. That is why Adam"s sin is called a necessary sin.

If we have no choice in following our sin natures, and cannot deviate from our part in God"s plan, then what is God"s reason for punishing us for being exactly what he created and programmed us to do?

That is why Adam"s sin is called a necessary sin. He could not help but sin and neither can any of us. You cannot help but do evil and thus sin.

This is all rather abstract so if you like I will imagine a viable scenario for us to work with. We all know that many are starving to death in various countries. Imagine one of these starving children walking past a farmer"s apple tree. The child knows that if he steals the apples that the farmer"s family will starve to death. He or she has a choice of either stealing apples to prevent their death or not. The survival instinct being our first instinct, I think apples will be eaten.

That child"s God given nature will choose life, as all natures do by default, and eat an apple. Does that child deserve hell when it"s God given nature drove it to sin?

We cannot do anything but follow our basic God given natures. Do we deserve hell for doing so?

Is God"s punishment unjust?

If sin was required for Jesus to manifest, Adam had to sin. Would his punishment and death have also been unjust?

Did God, knowing Adam would be a sinner and cause God"s/Jesus" death, hate Adam as well when he was creating him?

Regards
DL

This clip explains theistic evolution and how you cannot help but do evil and sin.

http://www.youtube.com...
Double_Helix46
Posts: 466
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10/10/2012 2:56:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/10/2012 2:41:00 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
Why does God hate babies who have not sinned?:
He doesn't. You just hate him.

Scriptures indicate that God knows that babies in the womb have not done anything good or evil.:
Show this
They also indicate that God hates some babies even while in the womb and innocent.:
Show this also.
God then is responsible for the evil that we will do as he has created our natures. Natures that we cannot help but follow.:
I can help what I do and so can everyone else.

We can blame our free will and the choices we make for the evil that we do but this does not explain why our God created natures decide to do evil.:
Yes it does, it is called free-will to choose to be that way.
We have no choice and no free will to deviate from our God given sin nature and God would know this as it is was all planned.:
Yes, you have free-will. Just like you deciced to write this thread.
Jesus was to die even before man was created. That is why Adam"s sin is called a necessary sin.:
Necessary? Please show this.

If we have no choice in following our sin natures, and cannot deviate from our part in God"s plan, then what is God"s reason for punishing us for being exactly what he created and programmed us to do?:
Because we go against His will by choice.

That is why Adam"s sin is called a necessary sin. He could not help but sin and neither can any of us. You cannot help but do evil and thus sin.:
You can help it but choose to blame someone else(God) instead of looking in the mirror.
That child"s God given nature will choose life, as all natures do by default, and eat an apple. Does that child deserve hell when it"s God given nature drove it to sin?:
Your reasoning is nonsense. They child wont go to hell but it is still wrong. It is also wrong for people to hoard wealth and food.

We cannot do anything but follow our basic God given natures. Do we deserve hell for doing so?:
If it goes against God's commandments, yes you do.

Is God"s punishment unjust?:
No it isn't. Is your reasoning? Yes it is.

If sin was required for Jesus to manifest, Adam had to sin. Would his punishment and death have also been unjust?:
You should explain your line of thought here.

Did God, knowing Adam would be a sinner and cause God"s/Jesus" death, hate Adam as well when he was creating him?:
You can not be this naive.
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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10/10/2012 3:38:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/10/2012 2:41:00 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
Why does God hate babies who have not sinned?

That's petitio principii. You assume that which you have not proven (that God hates any baby), and you're actually simply making an assertion in the form of a nonsensical question, i. e. it's BS.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
GreatestIam
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10/10/2012 5:56:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/10/2012 2:45:19 PM, Mirza wrote:
May I point out that this concept does NOT exist in Islam.

It may not but all in Islam are still not imune. All Muslims do evil just like all people.

Christians and likely Muslims are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or " it"s all man"s fault".

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.

Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.

Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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10/10/2012 6:33:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/10/2012 2:56:40 PM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
At 10/10/2012 2:41:00 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
Why does God hate babies who have not sinned?:
He doesn't. You just hate him.


Thanks for the ignorant start. I cannot hate what I do not believe in

Scriptures indicate that God knows that babies in the womb have not done anything good or evil.:
Show this
They also indicate that God hates some babies even while in the womb and innocent.:
Show this also.

Romans 9:11-13
King James Version (KJV)
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.


I can help what I do and so can everyone else.

Are you Gay or straight and can you revert or go the other way?

God then is responsible for the evil that we will do as he has created our natures. Natures that we cannot help but follow.:
I can help what I do and so can everyone else.


Can you go 10 days without food or water and not hunger or thirst?

We can blame our free will and the choices we make for the evil that we do but this does not explain why our God created natures decide to do evil.:
Yes it does, it is called free-will to choose to be that way.

Read the post just above please.

We have no choice and no free will to deviate from our God given sin nature and God would know this as it is was all planned.:
Yes, you have free-will. Just like you deciced to write this thread.
Jesus was to die even before man was created. That is why Adam"s sin is called a necessary sin.:
Necessary? Please show this.

Rev13;8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

God had planned for Jesus the lamb to be slain before the earth and man were created. If Adam did not start the sin cascade, God's plan would not unfold.


If we have no choice in following our sin natures, and cannot deviate from our part in God"s plan, then what is God"s reason for punishing us for being exactly what he created and programmed us to do?:
Because we go against His will by choice.


Is it God's will that you live?
I will assume here that you will answer yes although I could be wrong if the caliber of thought above is an indicator.
If yes, then you must compete like we all must and if you read the post above this will be clear to you.


That is why Adam"s sin is called a necessary sin. He could not help but sin and neither can any of us. You cannot help but do evil and thus sin.:
You can help it but choose to blame someone else(God) instead of looking in the mirror.

I do not suffer fools well child so if you expect me to not ignore your ignorant as s, stop your ignorance . Remember that your God is watching your apologetics and you are his representative.


That child"s God given nature will choose life, as all natures do by default, and eat an apple. Does that child deserve hell when it"s God given nature drove it to sin?:
Your reasoning is nonsense. They child wont go to hell but it is still wrong. It is also wrong for people to hoard wealth and food.


No one is hoarding.
If wrong then it is a sin for the child to steal. Right?
Your scriptures say that God will punish the child then. Stick to your dogma.


We cannot do anything but follow our basic God given natures. Do we deserve hell for doing so?:
If it goes against God's commandments, yes you do.


That child stole and sinned and deserves hell then. Right?

Is God"s punishment unjust?:
No it isn't. Is your reasoning? Yes it is.


Then refute it. Denial is not a worthy argument unless you are a child.

If sin was required for Jesus to manifest, Adam had to sin. Would his punishment and death have also been unjust?:
You should explain your line of thought here.


I did above.

Did God, knowing Adam would be a sinner and cause God"s/Jesus" death, hate Adam as well when he was creating him?:
You can not be this naive.

And you cannot be so ignorant if you want me to teach you something of your religion. You get one chance only. Decide.

You think I am an atheist and are wrong. I am a Gnostic Christian.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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10/10/2012 6:37:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/10/2012 3:38:03 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 10/10/2012 2:41:00 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
Why does God hate babies who have not sinned?

That's petitio principii. You assume that which you have not proven (that God hates any baby), and you're actually simply making an assertion in the form of a nonsensical question, i. e. it's BS.

I assumed that theists would know their own dogma but I guess the statistics are right when they say that you know less that those who do not believe.

I answered your foolish lack of knowledge above. Go find it. If you can read.

Regards
DL
annanicole
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10/10/2012 6:54:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/10/2012 6:37:17 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 10/10/2012 3:38:03 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 10/10/2012 2:41:00 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
Why does God hate babies who have not sinned?

That's petitio principii. You assume that which you have not proven (that God hates any baby), and you're actually simply making an assertion in the form of a nonsensical question, i. e. it's BS.

I assumed that theists would know their own dogma but I guess the statistics are right when they say that you know less that those who do not believe.

I answered your foolish lack of knowledge above. Go find it. If you can read.

Regards
DL

All you "answered" was a bunch of misapplied Calvinistic jabber about individual election. The majority of the so-called Christian world does not believe it.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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10/10/2012 7:00:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/10/2012 6:54:19 PM, annanicole wrote:
All you "answered" was a bunch of misapplied Calvinistic jabber about individual election. The majority of the so-called Christian world does not believe it.


Romans 9

10 Not only that, but Rebekah"s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad"in order that God"s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls"she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

It sure looks like God planned to Hate Esau, before he'd done anything.

Unless you think he means something else here.. or perhaps, you believe that he was merely exercising his foreknowledge?
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
MouthWash
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10/10/2012 7:07:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/10/2012 2:45:19 PM, Mirza wrote:
May I point out that this concept does NOT exist in Islam.

It doesn't exist in Judaism either. Babies are born sinless.
"Well, that gives whole new meaning to my assassination. If I was going to die anyway, perhaps I should leave the Bolsheviks' descendants some Christmas cookies instead of breaking their dishes and vodka bottles in their sleep." -Tsar Nicholas II (YYW)
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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10/10/2012 7:13:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/10/2012 7:07:14 PM, MouthWash wrote:
At 10/10/2012 2:45:19 PM, Mirza wrote:
May I point out that this concept does NOT exist in Islam.

It doesn't exist in Judaism either. Babies are born sinless.


So, 2 sinners created a sinless baby? Not sure how that works.

And, what causes this supposed 'sinless' baby to sin, if all evil/sin come within a persons heart? (Mark 7:21-23)
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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10/10/2012 7:52:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/10/2012 7:00:19 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 10/10/2012 6:54:19 PM, annanicole wrote:
All you "answered" was a bunch of misapplied Calvinistic jabber about individual election. The majority of the so-called Christian world does not believe it.


Romans 9

10 Not only that, but Rebekah"s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad"in order that God"s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls"she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

It sure looks like God planned to Hate Esau, before he'd done anything.

Looks more to me like God is choosing, in general, the true Israel of God - the church in which Jew and Gentile are one - over fleshly Israel, the descendents of Abraham who keep the Mosaic Law. All you have is types and antitypes here: Esau, representing national Israel versus Jacob representing the church of Christ which walks by faith.

Unless you think he means something else here..

I do.

or perhaps, you believe that he was merely exercising his foreknowledge?

Yep, and if you drop down to verse 30 - the conclusion of the matter - you'll see it:

"What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone, as it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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10/10/2012 8:25:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/10/2012 7:52:23 PM, annanicole wrote:


So did he, or did he not hate Esau before he was born?
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Wallstreetatheist
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10/10/2012 8:58:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The most likely conclusion is that, according to Christianity, babies do go to heaven. To take extra precautions, just baptise the little f*cker. http://www.debate.org...
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annanicole
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10/10/2012 9:12:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/10/2012 8:25:26 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 10/10/2012 7:52:23 PM, annanicole wrote:


So did he, or did he not hate Esau before he was born?

As an individual, no. He hated or detested what Esau represented. In choosing Jacob, God was choosing his descendents: every Jew gloried in that choice. God's selection of Jacob (and consequent rejection of Esau) had nothing at all to do with their salvation as individuals. If it had to do with their salvation, there would have been no point at all in mentioning the fact that the younger was chosen in preference over the older. The oldest son is not the natural heir to salvation - even to a Calvinist. Nor are the other sons reprobates - even to a Calvinist. I repeat: the selection of Jacob was the selection of a people rather than an individual.

"Two nations are in thy womb, and the two peoples shall be separated from thy bowels: and the one people shall be stonger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger." This doesn't mean that Esau individually would serve Jacob. Heck, Jacob came nearer to serving Esau. However, as time rolled on, it did come to pass that the descendents of Esau served the descendents of Jacob.

Also, you try to make it sound like "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" was said before they were born. It wasn't. It refers to the nations that each represented, and was written hundreds of years after their birth.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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10/11/2012 3:33:28 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/10/2012 8:58:27 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
The most likely conclusion is that, according to Christianity, babies do go to heaven. To take extra precautions, just baptise the little f*cker. http://www.debate.org...

Are you ever going to rejoin that discussion, or have you left me hanging?
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
GreatestIam
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10/11/2012 7:37:52 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/10/2012 8:58:27 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
The most likely conclusion is that, according to Christianity, babies do go to heaven. To take extra precautions, just baptise the little f*cker. http://www.debate.org...

Baptism is negated by not placing one, head right up you know where.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
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10/11/2012 7:39:49 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/10/2012 7:07:14 PM, MouthWash wrote:
At 10/10/2012 2:45:19 PM, Mirza wrote:
May I point out that this concept does NOT exist in Islam.

It doesn't exist in Judaism either. Babies are born sinless.

Jews have always thought better than Christians.
I wonder what happened to Islam.

Regards
DL
DanielChristopherBlowes
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10/16/2012 10:03:53 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/10/2012 2:41:00 PM, GreatestIam wrote:
Why does God hate babies who have not sinned?

Scriptures indicate that God knows that babies in the womb have not done anything good or evil. They also indicate that God hates some babies even while in the womb and innocent. It is also said that God creates us and our characters. Our characters, as we evolve, cannot help but do evil. God then is responsible for the evil that we will do as he has created our natures. Natures that we cannot help but follow.

We can blame our free will and the choices we make for the evil that we do but this does not explain why our God created natures decide to do evil. Theistic evolutionists try to explain this paradox but the average literalist or fundamental Christian does not follow their reasoning.

We have no choice and no free will to deviate from our God given sin nature and God would know this as it is was all planned. Jesus was to die even before man was created. That is why Adam"s sin is called a necessary sin.

If we have no choice in following our sin natures, and cannot deviate from our part in God"s plan, then what is God"s reason for punishing us for being exactly what he created and programmed us to do?

That is why Adam"s sin is called a necessary sin. He could not help but sin and neither can any of us. You cannot help but do evil and thus sin.

This is all rather abstract so if you like I will imagine a viable scenario for us to work with. We all know that many are starving to death in various countries. Imagine one of these starving children walking past a farmer"s apple tree. The child knows that if he steals the apples that the farmer"s family will starve to death. He or she has a choice of either stealing apples to prevent their death or not. The survival instinct being our first instinct, I think apples will be eaten.

That child"s God given nature will choose life, as all natures do by default, and eat an apple. Does that child deserve hell when it"s God given nature drove it to sin?

We cannot do anything but follow our basic God given natures. Do we deserve hell for doing so?

Is God"s punishment unjust?

If sin was required for Jesus to manifest, Adam had to sin. Would his punishment and death have also been unjust?

Did God, knowing Adam would be a sinner and cause God"s/Jesus" death, hate Adam as well when he was creating him?

Regards
DL

This clip explains theistic evolution and how you cannot help but do evil and sin.

http://www.youtube.com...

Another example of 'psychic vampirism' -he states the very things he hopes will cause you pain and discomfort and then feeds on the ensuing chaos, JUST as, in his private moments, HE is gnawed at by doubt and confusion etc..

Anyone who refuses to formally debate is not a true member of DDO in my book.
Everyone on the side of Truth listens to Me. (Jesus Christ)