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Some Problems With Jesus' Sacrifice/The Fall

jat93
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10/12/2012 4:10:11 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Why must we accept and recognize him as lord and savior in order for the redemption from damnation to occur? God loves humanity so much he's willing to brutally kill his son, or, part of himself, in order to redeem them from sin. But then humans are only redeemed when they recognize that he exists and jesus saved us. Why is the recognition of the sacrifice necessary for the sacrifice to affect you? It all sounds kinda weird and selfish on God's part.

Certainly his love is anything but unconditional as I have often heard Christians suggest it is; it requires believing in crazily unrealistic things on pretty skimpy evidence. A lot of decent, moral people can't honestly and with integrity bring themselves to believe in the Christian doctrines; it's not a choice. More importantly, often times people who hear the gospel have been indoctrinated into another religion so there are too many psychological/cultural values keeping them from ever being able to accept Jesus as lord and savior. This too is not a choice and yet both are damned to eternal hell for that which only God can be blamed for. Jesus' sacrifice for humanity won't apply to these people who literally can't help but not believe in essential Christian doctrines and they'll burn in hell? Damn, there should at least be an appeal process to try to explain the concepts of reasonable skepticism and cognitive biases to God, because despite creating them, he seems not to have a full grasp on their implications. Either that, or he's really "trigger happy" when it comes to sending everyone to hell forever, and if this is true can he really be omnibenevolent?

The thing that baffles me the most is that the sacrifice was necessary to begin with. If God wanted to forgive humanity, his omnipotence should allow him to do it in whichever way he wants, and his omnibenevolence should have him wanting to do it in a manner which doesn't, I don't know, necessitate the brutal torture and murder of his beloved son and part of himself. He could have simply decreed that humanity is forgiven.

But this begs the question of why humanity had to be forgiven in the first place. Why? Because of the original sin. But it's important to note that it is not a logical consequence of Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit that all their descendants, ad infitinum, will be full of sin and damnation. Even if eating the fruit was somehow immoral, why would an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God be forced to punish every single subsequent human to be born in sin? God loves humanity so much that he thought of and enforced that one all by himself. He didn't have to, though, and could have just not been such a petty unforgiving @$$hole... Especially given the fact that his omniscience means he created Adam and Eve in such a manner that he must have known they'd succumb to eating the apple, given his knowledge of their nature as he created it and all future events.

But how could they have sinned by eating the apple in the first place if it was the eating of the apple that first brought the sinful nature to begin with? Christianity is so fraught with ridiculous, illogical, and contradictory central tenets.
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10/12/2012 4:28:03 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/12/2012 4:10:11 AM, jat93 wrote:
Why must we accept and recognize him as lord and savior in order for the redemption from damnation to occur? God loves humanity so much he's willing to brutally kill his son, or, part of himself, in order to redeem them from sin. But then humans are only redeemed when they recognize that he exists and jesus saved us. Why is the recognition of the sacrifice necessary for the sacrifice to affect you? It all sounds kinda weird and selfish on God's part.

Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: According to so called xtianities preferred Story book, jebus was a fraud -

In Deuteronomy 24:16 (KJV Story book) it specifically says this:

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the father. Every man shall be put to death for his own sin. (Online Source: http://whatjewsbelieve.org...) - What Jews believe Point 1.)

"The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor shall the children be put to death for the fathers; Every man shall be put to death for his own sin. (Deut. 24:16) RSV Story book catholic edition 1965

cf.

Fathers must not be put to death for what their children24 do, nor children for what their fathers do; each must be put to death for his own sin. (Deut. 24:16) NET Story book (See also: post2966264 (Post#1586, story book contradictions Deut. 24:16 Oops! Ex. 20: 5. LOL!))

This was later confirmed by -

Ezekiel 18:20 RSV

"THE SON SHALL NOT SUFFER FOR THE INIQUITY OF THE FATHER. NOR THE FATHER SUFFER FOR THE INIQUITY OF THE SON; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."

Ezekiel 18:20 also "pulls the rug out from under" Christianity's main premise, that all generations of mankind are burdened with sin and death stemming from Adam's act of disobedience. Only Christ's redeeming shed blood can end this never-ending cycle of sin and death. Quite clearly Ezekiel refutes this notion. "The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father." (Online Source: http://www.bibleorigins.net...)

At 10/12/2012 4:10:11 AM, jat93 wrote:
Certainly his love is anything but unconditional as I have often heard Christians suggest it is; it requires believing in crazily unrealistic things on pretty skimpy evidence. A lot of decent, moral people can't honestly and with integrity bring themselves to believe in the Christian doctrines; it's not a choice.

So called xtianity is another human fabricated SCAM!

Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster!
Dogknox
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10/12/2012 3:38:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
jat93 You have good questions... But you missed something!
Jesus suffered..
God suffered as we do!

In a nut shell!
Jesus died... He rose because he was without sins!
Sins bring death, as Adam died because Adam sinned!
Jesus is a second Adam.. Formed PERFECT as Adam was formed perfect! Jesus was equal in every way with the first man except without sin!
Jesus rose, from the dead because sins bring death and we both know Jesus remained sinless! SOOOOOoooo

Jesus can't die a second time.. no man can die twice..
jat93 you can't even kill a stinking no good son of a gun DOG twice! One death is allotted to each man!!! IF...
jat93 If you were placed into the body of the risen Jesus, then you would not die.. Jesus has been there and done that!

THIS IS IT!!!!!
Get yourself into Jesus' holy sinless, blameless body, save yourself!
1 Peter 3:21
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also"not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

jat93 do you see it.. BAPTISM saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ
Baptism "ADDS" you to Jesus risen body!!!!
All in Jesus' resurrected body will also resurrect/RISE!

Acts 2:40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation."
41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.


DO YOU SEE IT!!?
3000 were saved on the first day of Pentecost because they were "ADDED" to Jesus' holy body!!!

Dogknox
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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10/12/2012 5:25:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/12/2012 4:10:11 AM, jat93 wrote:
Why must we accept and recognize him as lord and savior in order for the redemption from damnation to occur?

Because it seems to be the hardest thing for people to do. Example: your entire argument against him.

God loves humanity so much he's willing to brutally kill his son, or, part of himself, in order to redeem them from sin. But then humans are only redeemed when they recognize that he exists and jesus saved us. Why is the recognition of the sacrifice necessary for the sacrifice to affect you? It all sounds kinda weird and selfish on God's part.

Once again, because one of man's biggest problems is self reliance. We are so F*cked up, and clueless, yet we cling to our own reason and morality for comfort and truth.

Despite what most Christians will tell you, God does not love ALL of humanity.

When he doesn't do EVERYTHING, we resort to pure evil. Had God completely withdrawan himself, we'd be murdering our own siblings with out thinking twice; no remorse.

Certainly his love is anything but unconditional as I have often heard Christians suggest it is; it requires believing in crazily unrealistic things on pretty skimpy evidence.

Whats your idea of real? things you understand? things you agree with?

A lot of decent, moral people can't honestly and with integrity bring themselves to believe in the Christian doctrines; it's not a choice.

You are absolutely right about this. It's not a 'human' choice. God chooses, because otherwise, NO ONE would choose him.

More importantly, often times people who hear the gospel have been indoctrinated into another religion so there are too many psychological/cultural values keeping them from ever being able to accept Jesus as lord and savior.

Excuses, excuses.

This too is not a choice and yet both are damned to eternal hell for that which only God can be blamed for.

God's to blame for humanity rebelling against him? Just listen to yourself; you acknowledge how easy it would be to just 'accept' God, siince thats the supposed 'only' condition, yet you still rebel. Why? because you don't like it.. wtf?

Jesus' sacrifice for humanity won't apply to these people who literally can't help but not believe in essential Christian doctrines and they'll burn in hell? Damn, there should at least be an appeal process to try to explain the concepts of reasonable skepticism and cognitive biases to God, because despite creating them, he seems not to have a full grasp on their implications. Either that, or he's really "trigger happy" when it comes to sending everyone to hell forever, and if this is true can he really be omnibenevolent?

Oh, is that your take on it? thats what seem fair to you? How utterly human. God's not human. His ways are 'higher' then our ways. His thoughts are 'higher' then our thoughts. Get over yourself. No one likes it.

The thing that baffles me the most is that the sacrifice was necessary to begin with. If God wanted to forgive humanity, his omnipotence should allow him to do it in whichever way he wants, and his omnibenevolence should have him wanting to do it in a manner which doesn't, I don't know, necessitate the brutal torture and murder of his beloved son and part of himself. He could have simply decreed that humanity is forgiven.

Wait, so you're imperfect @ss is trying to figure God out, with human reason and empathy? This is the big wall blocking all unbelievers out: You just can't be satisfied. it has to be something you 'agree' with; it has to be 'appealing'

But this begs the question of why humanity had to be forgiven in the first place. Why? Because of the original sin. But it's important to note that it is not a logical consequence of Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit that all their descendants, ad infitinum, will be full of sin and damnation. Even if eating the fruit was somehow immoral, why would an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God be forced to punish every single subsequent human to be born in sin?

Eating the apple wasn't immoral, disobeying God was. As a result, man corrupted himself, and spread a plague: Sin. Sin destroyed everything. It effected the universe.

God loves humanity so much that he thought of and enforced that one all by himself. He didn't have to, though, and could have just not been such a petty unforgiving @$$hole... Especially given the fact that his omniscience means he created Adam and Eve in such a manner that he must have known they'd succumb to eating the apple, given his knowledge of their nature as he created it and all future events.

He's very forgiving. So much so, that he overcame the will of some so that they would be saved.

But how could they have sinned by eating the apple in the first place if it was the eating of the apple that first brought the sinful nature to begin with? Christianity is so fraught with ridiculous, illogical, and contradictory central tenets.

No, you're just a spoiled brat, with an authority problem.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Dogknox
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10/12/2012 5:52:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Paradox_7
You said.. Despite what most Christians will tell you, God does not love ALL of humanity.

I reply: You can't be more WRONG!!
God IS LOVE!!!! God can't do anything but LOVE, he is pure LOVE!

jat93 Jesus died for all men.. all men are sinners!!
God created ALL MEN; God created ALL MEN with LOVE!

1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

GOD IS LOVE!!
Love is GIVING of self from the heart!!
God loves all men!!
God does not like some men's actions..He want's all to be saved!

1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

Jesus/GOD died for all men because he LOVES all men!
John 1:7
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Acts 17:30
In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

Romans 5:18
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

Justification and life for all people.

Paradox_7 & jat93 Jesus died for all men because God loves all men!

Dogknox
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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10/12/2012 6:10:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/12/2012 5:52:04 PM, Dogknox wrote:
Paradox_7
You said.. Despite what most Christians will tell you, God does not love ALL of humanity.

I reply: You can't be more WRONG!!
God IS LOVE!!!! God can't do anything but LOVE, he is pure LOVE!

jat93 Jesus died for all men.. all men are sinners!!
God created ALL MEN; God created ALL MEN with LOVE!

1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

GOD IS LOVE!!
Love is GIVING of self from the heart!!
God loves all men!!
God does not like some men's actions..He want's all to be saved!

1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

Jesus/GOD died for all men because he LOVES all men!
John 1:7
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Acts 17:30
In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

Romans 5:18
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

Justification and life for all people.

Paradox_7 & jat93 Jesus died for all men because God loves all men!

Dogknox


ZzZzZz... -_-
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Dogknox
Posts: 5,049
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10/12/2012 6:22:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/12/2012 6:10:39 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 10/12/2012 5:52:04 PM, Dogknox wrote:
Paradox_7
You said.. Despite what most Christians will tell you, God does not love ALL of humanity.

I reply: You can't be more WRONG!!
God IS LOVE!!!! God can't do anything but LOVE, he is pure LOVE!

jat93 Jesus died for all men.. all men are sinners!!
God created ALL MEN; God created ALL MEN with LOVE!

1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

GOD IS LOVE!!
Love is GIVING of self from the heart!!
God loves all men!!
God does not like some men's actions..He want's all to be saved!

1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

Jesus/GOD died for all men because he LOVES all men!
John 1:7
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Acts 17:30
In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

Romans 5:18
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

Justification and life for all people.

Paradox_7 & jat93 Jesus died for all men because God loves all men!

Dogknox


ZzZzZz... -_-
Paradox_7 meaning what???
You disagree with the scriptures??
You will be back!!?

I point out: God can't hate any more then Satan could love!
God can get angry sure, being upset does not mean God does not love! Jesus turned over the "Money Changers Tables" in anger!

Jesus died a perfect man with ZERO Sins because he never ever thought of himself.. He was always GIVING of himself in LOVE!
A person doing actions with LOVE CAN'T sin!

Breaking a neighbors window is a sin.. It is an action done with out love!
Breaking a neighbors window to wake him up, his house is on fire, is an action of love!
Paradox_7 Only God can see into a mans heart.. "Harden not your hearts"!
God judges each man by each mans heart!
Love alone saves.. Jesus/God PURE LOVE died for all men!

Dogknox
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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10/12/2012 6:52:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/12/2012 6:22:01 PM, Dogknox wrote:
Paradox_7 Only God can see into a mans heart.. "Harden not your hearts"!
God judges each man by each mans heart!
Love alone saves.. Jesus/God PURE LOVE died for all men!

Dogknox


Jeremiah 17:9
9 The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it?

Mark 7:21-23
21 For it is from within, out of a person's heart, that evil thoughts come sexual immorality, theft, murder, 22 adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and defile a person."

Our hearts suck.. if he judges us based on this, we're all doomed.

But no, he doesn't..

Romans 9
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God"s mercy.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Composer
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10/12/2012 8:11:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/12/2012 5:25:56 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Eating the apple wasn't immoral, disobeying God was.

Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: Story book EVE was NEVER commanded by Story book god NOT to eat from the TreeOTKOG&Evil, ONLY Story book Adam was!

The Serpent was the wisest of all (above jebus & his god says jebus) and it was the ONLY Truth teller, as neither Adam NOR Eve literally died that day they ate, neither physically, nor as some have stupidly guessed at, dying spiritually!

Why would any one but a jealous as_s_hole wish to deny all, access to the Knowledge of Good?

At 10/12/2012 5:25:56 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
As a result, man corrupted himself,

Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: More of you & your Cults lies!

Man was created in a corrupted state from Day 1 of its Creation, and we know this because Story book states they had to partake of the Tree of Life to make them IMmortal, which means they were already Mortal and subject to death! Again Story book god lied that they brought death upon themselves through sin!

At 10/12/2012 5:25:56 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
and spread a plague: Sin. Sin destroyed everything. It effected the universe.

Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: More of your Cult minded drivel! LOL!

Apart from your preferred Story book, what actual evidence do you have that every human is a sinner?

Story book jebus was a spoiled brat that pretended to do things for mankind, but its own fundamental motivation is the same as those claiming to be believers today = Lust for personal gain, based upon promises of divine rewards!
Composer
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10/12/2012 8:21:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/12/2012 6:22:01 PM, Dogknox wrote:
Love alone saves.. Jesus/God PURE LOVE died for all men!

Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: Story book jebus was a selfish bastard whose primary motivation was that of personal greed for promises of divine rewards.

Atheists conversely show Unambiguous Pure Selfless Love for ALL of mankind, for believer or non-believer, as they have and shall again sacrifice themselves on the various Battle-Fields with NO motivation for ANY promises of divine rewards!

I'm also stilllllllllllllll waiting for any of you jebus dupes to show us how your Supernatural godman managed to literally die?

In the Thread " Let's Talk About Free-Will " dimwit & self-contradicting Dogknox wrote -

At 10/1/2012 5:20:05 PM, Dogknox wrote:
. . . . he is immortal he died for us... . . .

(I responded) - Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: You speak unending self contradicting horse manure!

Immortal = 1. Not subject to death (WordWeb)

Immortal = 1. . . . . not liable or subject to death (Dictionary.com)

You & your priestly whores remain as always busted by moi!

Your ONLY literal Saviour moi!
Dogknox
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10/12/2012 10:56:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/12/2012 6:52:27 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 10/12/2012 6:22:01 PM, Dogknox wrote:
Paradox_7 Only God can see into a mans heart.. "Harden not your hearts"!
God judges each man by each mans heart!
Love alone saves.. Jesus/God PURE LOVE died for all men!

Dogknox


Jeremiah 17:9
9 The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it?

Mark 7:21-23
21 For it is from within, out of a person's heart, that evil thoughts come sexual immorality, theft, murder, 22 adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and defile a person."

Our hearts suck.. if he judges us based on this, we're all doomed.

But no, he doesn't..

Romans 9
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God"s mercy.

Paradox_7 says you.... Our hearts suck.. if he judges us based on this, we're all doomed.

I reply with scriptures...

The Sheep go to heaven.. They have LOVE!
Jesus is judging men at the end times.. The Goats go to heaven because they are righteous.. "They do RIGHT!" They GIVE to other as simple a thing as a cup of water!

Sheep ..(Matt 25)
34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, "Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me."

Paradox_7 The Goats have "Faith ALONE" they go to eternal fire with Satan and his demons! They do NOTHING!

The Goats (Matt 25)
41 "Then he will say to those on his left, "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me."

LOOK... John 5
28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out"those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Paradox_7 DOING GOOD SAVES!!

You quote Jeremiah 17:9
9 The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it?


Jesus wrote Jeremiah AND John!!!
John 13:34
"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.

1 John 4:16
And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

Paradox_7 All men can love... And men do love they help others, they carry the bag of grocery's for the old lady they help a old lady cross a street.. IT is all from the heart.. GIVING is NOT WORKING!!

The Sheep "GIVE" to Jesus! They are not working their way into heaven they LOVE their way in.. They did not even know it was Jesus they were GIVING TO!!

Sheep (Matt 25)
37 "Then the righteous will answer him, "Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?"

Dogknox
Composer
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10/13/2012 5:22:41 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Jeremiah 17:9
9 The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it?


Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: Assuming you catholics & others actually believe that to be the case, then mere human propensity outclasses your naughty & deceitful catholic Satan spirit being! LOL!
Paradox_7
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10/13/2012 2:53:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/13/2012 5:22:41 AM, Composer wrote:
Jeremiah 17:9
9 The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it?


Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: Assuming you catholics & others actually believe that to be the case, then mere human propensity outclasses your naughty & deceitful catholic Satan spirit being! LOL!


Who cares about satan? If we weren't evil, we wouldn't sin. Satan simply uses what we've created. He's not to blame-- we are.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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10/13/2012 4:44:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/12/2012 4:10:11 AM, jat93 wrote:
Why must we accept and recognize him as lord and savior in order for the redemption from damnation to occur? God loves humanity so much he's willing to brutally kill his son, or, part of himself, in order to redeem them from sin. But then humans are only redeemed when they recognize that he exists and jesus saved us. Why is the recognition of the sacrifice necessary for the sacrifice to affect you? It all sounds kinda weird and selfish on God's part.

It looks like you are leaning on fundamental sect beliefs. Christ's sacrifice opened the doors of Heaven to ALL men. Past, present and future. I, as a Catholic, have no authority to judge man, the Mercy of God is not something I can fully comprehend.

Certainly his love is anything but unconditional as I have often heard Christians suggest it is; it requires believing in crazily unrealistic things on pretty skimpy evidence. A lot of decent, moral people can't honestly and with integrity bring themselves to believe in the Christian doctrines; it's not a choice. More importantly, often times people who hear the gospel have been indoctrinated into another religion so there are too many psychological/cultural values keeping them from ever being able to accept Jesus as lord and savior. This too is not a choice and yet both are damned to eternal hell for that which only God can be blamed for. Jesus' sacrifice for humanity won't apply to these people who literally can't help but not believe in essential Christian doctrines and they'll burn in hell? Damn, there should at least be an appeal process to try to explain the concepts of reasonable skepticism and cognitive biases to God, because despite creating them, he seems not to have a full grasp on their implications. Either that, or he's really "trigger happy" when it comes to sending everyone to hell forever, and if this is true can he really be omnibenevolent?

Again, before there was Christianity men were considered saved and Heaven bound. Christianity is the fullness of God's Word. I

The thing that baffles me the most is that the sacrifice was necessary to begin with. If God wanted to forgive humanity, his omnipotence should allow him to do it in whichever way he wants, and his omnibenevolence should have him wanting to do it in a manner which doesn't, I don't know, necessitate the brutal torture and murder of his beloved son and part of himself. He could have simply decreed that humanity is forgiven.

There are a few truths that come along with being God. One is ultimate justice, far beyond human or worldly justice. While being perfectly just God can not be unjust, unrighteousness can not stand before Him. It takes something stronger then "I'm sorry" to clean us. It takes the Blood of a perfect sacrifice, which Jesus carried out.

A simple sacrifice by a human can be so powerful in this world, giving others the chance to grow or be healed. Jesus made the perfect sacrifice to totally remove all uncleanness.


But this begs the question of why humanity had to be forgiven in the first place. Why? Because of the original sin. But it's important to note that it is not a logical consequence of Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit that all their descendants, ad infitinum, will be full of sin and damnation. Even if eating the fruit was somehow immoral, why would an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God be forced to punish every single subsequent human to be born in sin? God loves humanity so much that he thought of and enforced that one all by himself. He didn't have to, though, and could have just not been such a petty unforgiving @$$hole... Especially given the fact that his omniscience means he created Adam and Eve in such a manner that he must have known they'd succumb to eating the apple, given his knowledge of their nature as he created it and all future events.

Eating the fruit was the sin, the consequence was the separation from God. As I stated above, sin can not stand before Him. That separation is what the Fall is. It's kinda like flames getting near a dry leaf, it doesn't work out to well for the leaf.

The sin was the disobedience. All things are intended for our own good, when we rebel we suffer the effects from it. To just magically remove the consequence we end up in an unrealistic world where nothing is real and nothing really matters any more.

But how could they have sinned by eating the apple in the first place if it was the eating of the apple that first brought the sinful nature to begin with? Christianity is so fraught with ridiculous, illogical, and contradictory central tenets.

The one thing God warned Adam and Eve about was eating the fruit. They suffered for it and brought humanity into a world where God could not stay, He could not just take it back because the damage was already done.

Now that God's pure presence is no longer present among us like it was then we all suffer from sin. I do not have to sin, but because I have to live in this imperfect world I will, have and do. God made an antidote for this infection that is pure enough to cure our disease. Jesus. Well, He didn't make Jesus but made a way. And that is through Jesus.

If you have heard of the Way and refuse it then it is on you in the end.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
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10/14/2012 2:16:58 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/13/2012 2:53:48 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 10/13/2012 5:22:41 AM, Composer wrote:
Jeremiah 17:9
9 The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it?


Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: Assuming you catholics & others actually believe that to be the case, then mere human propensity outclasses your naughty & deceitful catholic Satan spirit being! LOL!


Who cares about satan? If we weren't evil, we wouldn't sin. Satan simply uses what we've created. He's not to blame-- we are.

Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: We didn't create a single thing according to the Story book -

Col. 1:16
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10/14/2012 3:18:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/13/2012 4:44:19 PM, jharry wrote:
The one thing God warned Adam and Eve about was eating the fruit.

Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: Bollocks to that!

Story book god ONLY ever commanded the man, Eve wasn't even created yet!

cf. Gen. 2:16-18
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10/14/2012 3:27:58 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/13/2012 4:44:19 PM, jharry wrote:
God made an antidote for this infection

Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: What infection?

Ezekiel 18:20 RSV

"THE SON SHALL NOT SUFFER FOR THE INIQUITY OF THE FATHER. NOR THE FATHER SUFFER FOR THE INIQUITY OF THE SON; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."

Ezekiel 18:20 also "pulls the rug out from under" Christianity's main premise, that all generations of mankind are burdened with sin and death stemming from Adam's act of disobedience. Only Christ's redeeming shed blood can end this never-ending cycle of sin and death. Quite clearly Ezekiel refutes this notion. "The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father." (Online Source: http://www.bibleorigins.net...)

At 10/13/2012 4:44:19 PM, jharry wrote:
Well, He didn't make Jesus but made a way. And that is through Jesus.

Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: For starters, IF it didn't make jebus as you claim, then the Story book lied again cf. Col. 1:16

Your Only Saviour moi!
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10/14/2012 3:43:29 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/13/2012 4:44:19 PM, jharry wrote:
I do not have to sin, but because I have to live in this imperfect world I will, have and do.

Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: 1. Then for starters you obviously DO NOT have a genuine Free-Will, else you would NOT continue to Sin as you do unless you are disobedient!

2. Obviously YOUR Story book jebus was an incompetent idiot for commanding others to cease their sins henceforth, because dimwits like you say you can't help yourself, then try to blame every one else around you for your failure, LOL!

cf. After this Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, "Look, you have become well. Don"t sin any more,26 lest anything worse happen to you." (John 5:14) NET Story book

cf. She replied, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you either. Go, and from now on do not sin any more."]] (John 8:11) NET Story book

cf. Everyone who resides23 in him does not sin;24 everyone who sins has neither seen him nor known him. (1 John 3:6) NET Story book

YOU are obviously just another proven fraudulent jebus believer making BS excuses for your disobediences & failures!

Your ONLY literal Saviour moi!
Dan4reason
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10/14/2012 9:38:34 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Let me get this strait. We are sinful and don't deserve to go to heaven. Jesus dies for us but it only counts if we believe in him.

Three questions:
Why is God being such a hard*** and requiring people to be perfect to go to heaven if it were not for Jesus?
How does killing an innocent person absolve you of your sins?
Why is the requirement that we have to believe in Christ? Why isn't it that we have to be basically good people?
Dogknox
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10/14/2012 10:04:11 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Dan4reason you get 66%!!
You asked.. Let me get this strait. We are sinful and don't deserve to go to heaven. Jesus dies for us but it only counts if we believe in him.

Right.. We are sinful and don't deserve to go to heaven.
Right... Jesus dies for us
WRONG.. but it only counts if we believe in him.

All men go to heaven if they LOVE!

"GOD IS LOVE"!

"Taking Jesus as personal lord and savior" is a protestant teaching.. it is not in the scriptures!

ALL MEN are made in the Image of God!
Only men can chose to love or not to love!

LOVE is GIVING of self from the heart... GIVING is not working!
GIVING is NOT expecting reward!
Man is saved by "Love ALONE!"

Dogknox
jat93
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10/14/2012 10:28:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/14/2012 10:04:11 PM, Dogknox wrote:
Dan4reason you get 66%!!
You asked.. Let me get this strait. We are sinful and don't deserve to go to heaven. Jesus dies for us but it only counts if we believe in him.

Right.. We are sinful and don't deserve to go to heaven.
Right... Jesus dies for us
WRONG.. but it only counts if we believe in him.

All men go to heaven if they LOVE!

"GOD IS LOVE"!

"Taking Jesus as personal lord and savior" is a protestant teaching.. it is not in the scriptures!

ALL MEN are made in the Image of God!
Only men can chose to love or not to love!

LOVE is GIVING of self from the heart... GIVING is not working!
GIVING is NOT expecting reward!
Man is saved by "Love ALONE!"

Dogknox

That's an inclusive kind of Christianity that I could really learn to respect. Assuming you're saying that as long as you're good and righteous and loving, that's good enough, and you don't need to accept Jesus as lord and savior or whatever. I could really dig that. I'm an atheist but I also try to be good and righteous and loving. Most religious people I talk to seem to think that god cares/will care more about the fact that I don't believe in him than the fact that I try my hardest to be good, righteous, and loving. That is an awful belief and is not conducive to a good and loving society.
Dan4reason
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10/14/2012 10:28:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/14/2012 10:04:11 PM, Dogknox wrote:
Dan4reason you get 66%!!
You asked.. Let me get this strait. We are sinful and don't deserve to go to heaven. Jesus dies for us but it only counts if we believe in him.

Right.. We are sinful and don't deserve to go to heaven.
Right... Jesus dies for us
WRONG.. but it only counts if we believe in him.

All men go to heaven if they LOVE!

"GOD IS LOVE"!

"Taking Jesus as personal lord and savior" is a protestant teaching.. it is not in the scriptures!

ALL MEN are made in the Image of God!
Only men can chose to love or not to love!

LOVE is GIVING of self from the heart... GIVING is not working!
GIVING is NOT expecting reward!
Man is saved by "Love ALONE!"

Dogknox

Well, I am giving you 0% for not using the bible to support your interpretation of the bible.
jat93
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10/15/2012 12:22:28 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/14/2012 10:28:45 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 10/14/2012 10:04:11 PM, Dogknox wrote:
Dan4reason you get 66%!!
You asked.. Let me get this strait. We are sinful and don't deserve to go to heaven. Jesus dies for us but it only counts if we believe in him.

Right.. We are sinful and don't deserve to go to heaven.
Right... Jesus dies for us
WRONG.. but it only counts if we believe in him.

All men go to heaven if they LOVE!

"GOD IS LOVE"!

"Taking Jesus as personal lord and savior" is a protestant teaching.. it is not in the scriptures!

ALL MEN are made in the Image of God!
Only men can chose to love or not to love!

LOVE is GIVING of self from the heart... GIVING is not working!
GIVING is NOT expecting reward!
Man is saved by "Love ALONE!"

Dogknox

Well, I am giving you 0% for not using the bible to support your interpretation of the bible.

That's not fair, his view might be totally incompatible with the official doctrines/history of his religion but wouldn't you rather a religious person whose views are inconsistent with the bible but moral and just, than someone who actually adheres to biblical/clerical doctrine... Maybe don't give him 100%, but for saying that God doesn't care about accepting Jesus, just being a good and loving person, he deserves more than your "0%"
DanielChristopherBlowes
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10/15/2012 4:20:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/12/2012 4:10:11 AM, jat93 wrote:
Why must we accept and recognize him as lord and savior in order for the redemption from damnation to occur? God loves humanity so much he's willing to brutally kill his son, or, part of himself, in order to redeem them from sin. But then humans are only redeemed when they recognize that he exists and jesus saved us. Why is the recognition of the sacrifice necessary for the sacrifice to affect you? It all sounds kinda weird and selfish on God's part.

Certainly his love is anything but unconditional as I have often heard Christians suggest it is; it requires believing in crazily unrealistic things on pretty skimpy evidence. A lot of decent, moral people can't honestly and with integrity bring themselves to believe in the Christian doctrines; it's not a choice. More importantly, often times people who hear the gospel have been indoctrinated into another religion so there are too many psychological/cultural values keeping them from ever being able to accept Jesus as lord and savior. This too is not a choice and yet both are damned to eternal hell for that which only God can be blamed for. Jesus' sacrifice for humanity won't apply to these people who literally can't help but not believe in essential Christian doctrines and they'll burn in hell? Damn, there should at least be an appeal process to try to explain the concepts of reasonable skepticism and cognitive biases to God, because despite creating them, he seems not to have a full grasp on their implications. Either that, or he's really "trigger happy" when it comes to sending everyone to hell forever, and if this is true can he really be omnibenevolent?

The thing that baffles me the most is that the sacrifice was necessary to begin with. If God wanted to forgive humanity, his omnipotence should allow him to do it in whichever way he wants, and his omnibenevolence should have him wanting to do it in a manner which doesn't, I don't know, necessitate the brutal torture and murder of his beloved son and part of himself. He could have simply decreed that humanity is forgiven.

But this begs the question of why humanity had to be forgiven in the first place. Why? Because of the original sin. But it's important to note that it is not a logical consequence of Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit that all their descendants, ad infitinum, will be full of sin and damnation. Even if eating the fruit was somehow immoral, why would an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God be forced to punish every single subsequent human to be born in sin? God loves humanity so much that he thought of and enforced that one all by himself. He didn't have to, though, and could have just not been such a petty unforgiving @$$hole... Especially given the fact that his omniscience means he created Adam and Eve in such a manner that he must have known they'd succumb to eating the apple, given his knowledge of their nature as he created it and all future events.

But how could they have sinned by eating the apple in the first place if it was the eating of the apple that first brought the sinful nature to begin with? Christianity is so fraught with ridiculous, illogical, and contradictory central tenets.

Way too many points to cover here, so I'll try one for now..

On the question of why we, Adams descendents, should bare the brunt of his mistake, I think of it like this: if the government brought in a statute that it and it alone decided what language your children would speak, what religion they must adopt and who they married etc we would be rightly outraged as we want out children to follow our own modes of living etc.. God afforded Adam precisely the same liberty; that his descendents would live by his choices..
Everyone on the side of Truth listens to Me. (Jesus Christ)
Dogknox
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10/15/2012 11:58:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
jat93
That's an inclusive kind of Christianity that I could really learn to respect. Assuming you're saying that as long as you're good and righteous and loving, that's good enough, and you don't need to accept Jesus as lord and savior or whatever. I could really dig that. I'm an atheist but I also try to be good and righteous and loving. Most religious people I talk to seem to think that god cares/will care more about the fact that I don't believe in him than the fact that I try my hardest to be good, righteous, and loving. That is an awful belief and is not conducive to a good and loving society.

You love then you will go to heaven!!!
jat93 atheists have their FAITH as Christians have theirs!
You BELIEVE there is NO God!
You have FAITH there is NO God!
You can't PROVE there is no God!

You are trusting in your own faith.. What if you are wrong!? Have you ever thought you could be wrong??! You have a lot to lose.. As you stand you lost your life as a Child of God!!

Read on....ONLY Christians INSIDE of Jesus' Body are God' Children!
To be INSIDE of Jesus you must believe Baptism will add you to Jesus' Body! Christians believe this, they are ADDED to God' ONLY Son, so God also calls them Children!
jat93 God' Children have an inheritance! God' Children enter the "Throne Room"!
Christians trust their faith in Jesus so they are ADDED to Jesus' Holy Body!!

Yes you can go to heaven but you will never enter the Throne Room you will not be a Child of God!

jat93 John the Baptist died before he could be Baptized by the Church!
He went to the Garden.. Paradise is NOT the Throne room not in the KINGDOM!
The Good Thief on the Cross died before he could be Baptized by the Church! He also went to the Garden!

The death on Jesus with the Good Thief!
Luke 23:42
Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
43 Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."


John was not Baptized by the BRIDE of Christ..CHURCH!
Matthew 11:11
Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he

jat93 Ignorance is bliss... You are IGNORANT of the truth thus your atheism!!
Keep doing Good, keep LOVING, KEEPING giving from your heart to others; if not you will live forever with Satan!

Your LOVE will save you as it saved all men who LOVE Neighbor!!
Would you be happy in the Garden??
You will not be happy in the Lake of Fire with Satan.. Satan would be your father!

Something to think about, something to chew on...

Dogknox
Dogknox
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10/16/2012 12:04:57 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/14/2012 10:28:45 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 10/14/2012 10:04:11 PM, Dogknox wrote:
Dan4reason you get 66%!!
You asked.. Let me get this strait. We are sinful and don't deserve to go to heaven. Jesus dies for us but it only counts if we believe in him.

Right.. We are sinful and don't deserve to go to heaven.
Right... Jesus dies for us
WRONG.. but it only counts if we believe in him.

All men go to heaven if they LOVE!

"GOD IS LOVE"!

"Taking Jesus as personal lord and savior" is a protestant teaching.. it is not in the scriptures!

ALL MEN are made in the Image of God!
Only men can chose to love or not to love!

LOVE is GIVING of self from the heart... GIVING is not working!
GIVING is NOT expecting reward!
Man is saved by "Love ALONE!"

Dogknox

Well, I am giving you 0% for not using the bible to support your interpretation of the bible.

SCRIPTURES!!
Dan4reason the Sheep go to heaven because they are RIGHTEOUS!!! The Goats go to the Eternal fire because they have Faith ALONE!
The Sheep are RIGHTEOUS because they "LOVE", they "GIVE" giving is NOT working it is GIVING from the heart.. LOVE!

The Sheep and the Goats
Matthew 25:31
"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, "Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me."

37 "Then the righteous will answer him, "Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?"

40 "The King will reply, "Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me."

41 "Then he will say to those on his left, "Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me."
44 "They also will answer, "Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?"
45 "He will reply, "Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."
46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

This is the end judgement.. This is what they are JUDGED on "Their HEARTS!!!!"

Dogknox
Dogknox
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10/16/2012 5:13:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
DanielChristopherBlowes you said..
Way too many points to cover here, so I'll try one for now..

On the question of why we, Adams descendents, should bare the brunt of his mistake, I think of it like this: if the government brought in a statute that it and it alone decided what language your children would speak, what religion they must adopt and who they married etc we would be rightly outraged as we want out children to follow our own modes of living etc.. God afforded Adam precisely the same liberty; that his descendents would live by his choices..


I reply: In a nut shell! Adam was created PERFECT!! The PERFECT Man sinned! Until the Perfect man sinned their was NO DEATH in the world.. "The wages of sin is death!"

Death enter creation because of Adam!!!

Jesus is also PERFECT, Jesus died without sin.. so he popped up out of the grave as; "A cork released from the bottom of a pool of water, would pop up!"

Jesus died!!!!!
No one can die twice.. NO ONE!!
DanielChristopherBlowes you can't even kill a stinking dog twice!!!!

Jesus died he can't die again!!!! Jesus rose from the grave NEVER to die again!!

Here it is... This is the whole point.. IF..
DanielChristopherBlowes If you were "IN" Jesus!!! If you were ADDED to Jesus' resurrected body then you would not die!!!

All IN Jesus will rise even if their body dies, they will rise because; "Jesus has been there and done that!" He can't do it again!!

So HOW..
DanielChristopherBlowes How can you get your self ADDED to Jesus' resurrected body!!??? THIS: Should be your next question!!!

Dogknox
Paradox_7
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10/16/2012 6:33:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/15/2012 4:20:23 PM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
On the question of why we, Adams descendents, should bare the brunt of his mistake, I think of it like this: if the government brought in a statute that it and it alone decided what language your children would speak, what religion they must adopt and who they married etc we would be rightly outraged as we want out children to follow our own modes of living etc.. God afforded Adam precisely the same liberty; that his descendents would live by his choices..

We inherit a sinful nature, via Adam, just like a child inherits the likeness of his/her parents.

Since Adam was now in Sin, how could he create a creature without sin?

A personal example, is the fact I have a very similar temper and authority problem to my dad. Nearly the same things piss us both off, and we react very similar.

before you suggest that i merely learned this behavior from, know that he didn't raise me, nor have I ever spent more then a year months with him, TOTAL, my entire life.

So, Adam is responsible for corrupting us, and once we're born we willfully sin; even when we know we shouldn't

Romans 7 explains that best even God's elect can do, is realize they can't do a damn thing right..
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Dogknox
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10/16/2012 7:20:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/16/2012 6:33:17 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 10/15/2012 4:20:23 PM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
On the question of why we, Adams descendents, should bare the brunt of his mistake, I think of it like this: if the government brought in a statute that it and it alone decided what language your children would speak, what religion they must adopt and who they married etc we would be rightly outraged as we want out children to follow our own modes of living etc.. God afforded Adam precisely the same liberty; that his descendents would live by his choices..

We inherit a sinful nature, via Adam, just like a child inherits the likeness of his/her parents.

Since Adam was now in Sin, how could he create a creature without sin?

A personal example, is the fact I have a very similar temper and authority problem to my dad. Nearly the same things piss us both off, and we react very similar.

before you suggest that i merely learned this behavior from, know that he didn't raise me, nor have I ever spent more then a year months with him, TOTAL, my entire life.

So, Adam is responsible for corrupting us, and once we're born we willfully sin; even when we know we shouldn't

Romans 7 explains that best even God's elect can do, is realize they can't do a damn thing right..

I reply... The Sheep go to heaven at the end judgement because they do it right... They "GIVE from the heart"!
Giving from the heart is commonly called LOVE! It is also called "Good WORKS!" God tells you, they are RIGHTEOUS so they go to heaven!
God tells you; "The RIGHTEOUS DO RIGHT!!"

God tells you "His NEW COMMAND IS LOVE"!
He tells you.. "the NEW Command is greater the the Old Testament ten commandments!"
God tells you: "YOU MUST LOVE!"

The Sheep go to heaven so LOVING and going to heaven is NOT impossible! God also tells you, the Goats have ZERO Love they have "Faith ALONE" these people are judged to go to the eternal fire!

Dogknox
Composer
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10/16/2012 7:49:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/16/2012 6:33:17 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
We inherit a sinful nature, via Adam, . . . .

Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: Incorrect! according to the bible Story book!

Fathers must not be put to death for what their children24 do, nor children for what their fathers do; each must be put to death for his own sin. (Deut. 24;16) NET Story book

&

The person who sins is the one who will die. A son will not suffer27 for his father"s iniquity, and a father will not suffer28 for his son"s iniquity; the righteous person will be judged according to his righteousness, and the wicked person according to his wickedness.29 (Ezek. 18:20) NET Story book