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Something for christians to ponder.

ATHOS
Posts: 123
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10/14/2012 2:57:23 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
No Christian has been able to answer this: According to Christian theology, a child rapist and murderer can repent to Jesus and go to heaven, no problem.

But a person like Natalie Portman who has shown great empathy, helps with human rights causes, visits and hugs children in Jerusalem hospitals who were victims of shrapnel and helps women start businesses in impoverished countries will burn in... a Lake of Fire forever because she is an atheist." Explain how this makes any sense at all without sounding completely immoral and insane. You can't. Your religion is a massive failure.
What can be expected from insane premises except an insane conclusion? The way to undo an insane conclusion is to consider the sanity of the premises on which it rests.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
How long will contradiction stand when its impossible nature is clearly revealed?
twocupcakes
Posts: 2,748
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10/14/2012 8:16:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I will add this picture:

http://www.google.ca...-

It makes no sense that atheist philanthropists like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet go to hell, while slave labor using christian Pat Robertson gets heaven.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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10/14/2012 9:49:55 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/14/2012 2:57:23 AM, ATHOS wrote:
No Christian has been able to answer this: According to Christian theology, a child rapist and murderer can repent to Jesus and go to heaven, no problem.

But a person like Natalie Portman who has shown great empathy, helps with human rights causes, visits and hugs children in Jerusalem hospitals who were victims of shrapnel and helps women start businesses in impoverished countries will burn in... a Lake of Fire forever because she is an atheist." Explain how this makes any sense at all without sounding completely immoral and insane. You can't. Your religion is a massive failure.

I'd humbly suggest you dig a bit deeper into Christian theology. There's far more to it than the exclusivistic understanding of soteriology that you're railing against. For example, there is inclusivism.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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10/14/2012 11:03:16 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/14/2012 9:49:55 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/14/2012 2:57:23 AM, ATHOS wrote:
No Christian has been able to answer this: According to Christian theology, a child rapist and murderer can repent to Jesus and go to heaven, no problem.

But a person like Natalie Portman who has shown great empathy, helps with human rights causes, visits and hugs children in Jerusalem hospitals who were victims of shrapnel and helps women start businesses in impoverished countries will burn in... a Lake of Fire forever because she is an atheist." Explain how this makes any sense at all without sounding completely immoral and insane. You can't. Your religion is a massive failure.

I'd humbly suggest you dig a bit deeper into Christian theology. There's far more to it than the exclusivistic understanding of soteriology that you're railing against. For example, there is inclusivism.

Your post does not address the point, as inclusivism refers to other religions that might be partially true and therefor allow for the person to be saved, and his point was that an atheist who does much good would be tortured for eternity while a child rapist who repents and accepts jesus will be given eternal bliss. And while I agree, to an extent, that there is more to it, there are cases where that is not true. He is clearly directing this at those who follow a sect where this is the case. And many such sects exist.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
Dogknox
Posts: 5,060
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10/14/2012 11:23:09 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/14/2012 2:57:23 AM, ATHOS wrote:
No Christian has been able to answer this: According to Christian theology, a child rapist and murderer can repent to Jesus and go to heaven, no problem.

But a person like Natalie Portman who has shown great empathy, helps with human rights causes, visits and hugs children in Jerusalem hospitals who were victims of shrapnel and helps women start businesses in impoverished countries will burn in... a Lake of Fire forever because she is an atheist." Explain how this makes any sense at all without sounding completely immoral and insane. You can't. Your religion is a massive failure.

ATHOS Simple answer is.. "All people who LOVE have God inside!"
God would NOT put himself into hell!

1 John 4:8
Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

1 John 4:16
And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

Do you see it?? Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.

This is it.. in a nut shell! Are you saying Natalie Portman is condemned?? The Catholic would not, Jesus died for all men!!
If you want more depth to my answer.. Just ask!!

Dogknox
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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10/14/2012 11:32:29 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/14/2012 2:57:23 AM, ATHOS wrote:
No Christian has been able to answer this: According to Christian theology, a child rapist and murderer can repent to Jesus and go to heaven, no problem.

But a person like Natalie Portman who has shown great empathy, helps with human rights causes, visits and hugs children in Jerusalem hospitals who were victims of shrapnel and helps women start businesses in impoverished countries will burn in... a Lake of Fire forever because she is an atheist." Explain how this makes any sense at all without sounding completely immoral and insane. You can't. Your religion is a massive failure.

This is based purely on your own moral position, as any explanation that doesn't assume that position will be considered immoral and insane. However, the morality of an omniscient, omnipotent being will likely be quite different than that of a very limited being who assumes that he is the ultimate decider of morality.
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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10/14/2012 11:40:40 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/14/2012 2:57:23 AM, ATHOS wrote:
No Christian has been able to answer this: According to Christian theology, a child rapist and murderer can repent to Jesus and go to heaven, no problem.

But a person like Natalie Portman who has shown great empathy, helps with human rights causes, visits and hugs children in Jerusalem hospitals who were victims of shrapnel and helps women start businesses in impoverished countries will burn in... a Lake of Fire forever because she is an atheist." Explain how this makes any sense at all without sounding completely immoral and insane. You can't. Your religion is a massive failure.

Your argument is invalid.

Romans Chapter 2: 7 - 11

7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

gen"tile   [jen-tahyl] Show IPA
adjective ( sometimes initial capital letter )
1.
of or pertaining to any people not Jewish.

This book was written in the context of being to Jews.

So, in other words, even someone who isn't a Jew, even an atheist, or whatever else, can get into Heaven by living virtuous lives.

Further, 7 - 24:

17 Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and boast in God; 18 if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19 if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of little children, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth" 21 you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22 You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24 As it is written: "God"s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."

In these verses, Paul indicates that God shows contempt for those that claim to be good Jews (or Christians, be it as it may), yet commit evil. He also points out that those people who claim to be Jews (or Christians), yet live sinful lives, are the reason why many non-Jews and non-Christians curse God, claiming that He is an evil or unfair God, given the acts of unwholesome men.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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10/14/2012 12:33:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/14/2012 11:03:16 AM, muzebreak wrote:
At 10/14/2012 9:49:55 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/14/2012 2:57:23 AM, ATHOS wrote:
No Christian has been able to answer this: According to Christian theology, a child rapist and murderer can repent to Jesus and go to heaven, no problem.

But a person like Natalie Portman who has shown great empathy, helps with human rights causes, visits and hugs children in Jerusalem hospitals who were victims of shrapnel and helps women start businesses in impoverished countries will burn in... a Lake of Fire forever because she is an atheist." Explain how this makes any sense at all without sounding completely immoral and insane. You can't. Your religion is a massive failure.

I'd humbly suggest you dig a bit deeper into Christian theology. There's far more to it than the exclusivistic understanding of soteriology that you're railing against. For example, there is inclusivism.

Your post does not address the point,

Yes it does.

as inclusivism refers to other religions that might be partially true and therefor allow for the person to be saved,

The scope of inclusivism isn't necessarily limited to other religious people.

and his point was that an atheist who does much good would be tortured for eternity while a child rapist who repents and accepts jesus will be given eternal bliss. And while I agree, to an extent, that there is more to it, there are cases where that is not true. He is clearly directing this at those who follow a sect where this is the case. And many such sects exist.

No, he is clearly directing this as what he perceives to be a fundamental christian doctrine, and I'm pointing out that it isn't so.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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10/14/2012 2:25:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/14/2012 12:33:55 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/14/2012 11:03:16 AM, muzebreak wrote:
At 10/14/2012 9:49:55 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/14/2012 2:57:23 AM, ATHOS wrote:
No Christian has been able to answer this: According to Christian theology, a child rapist and murderer can repent to Jesus and go to heaven, no problem.

But a person like Natalie Portman who has shown great empathy, helps with human rights causes, visits and hugs children in Jerusalem hospitals who were victims of shrapnel and helps women start businesses in impoverished countries will burn in... a Lake of Fire forever because she is an atheist." Explain how this makes any sense at all without sounding completely immoral and insane. You can't. Your religion is a massive failure.

I'd humbly suggest you dig a bit deeper into Christian theology. There's far more to it than the exclusivistic understanding of soteriology that you're railing against. For example, there is inclusivism.

Your post does not address the point,

Yes it does.

No it doesn't.


as inclusivism refers to other religions that might be partially true and therefor allow for the person to be saved,

The scope of inclusivism isn't necessarily limited to other religious people.

From what I'v read, inclusivism is the theory that some religions stem from the ultimate truth, and that little kernel of truth that still exist's in them is what allows for some people of that religion to go to heaven. Can you explain what it is if not that?


and his point was that an atheist who does much good would be tortured for eternity while a child rapist who repents and accepts jesus will be given eternal bliss. And while I agree, to an extent, that there is more to it, there are cases where that is not true. He is clearly directing this at those who follow a sect where this is the case. And many such sects exist.

No, he is clearly directing this as what he perceives to be a fundamental christian doctrine, and I'm pointing out that it isn't so.

And a large portion of christians would disagree and say that it is so.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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10/14/2012 2:29:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/14/2012 11:32:29 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 10/14/2012 2:57:23 AM, ATHOS wrote:
No Christian has been able to answer this: According to Christian theology, a child rapist and murderer can repent to Jesus and go to heaven, no problem.

But a person like Natalie Portman who has shown great empathy, helps with human rights causes, visits and hugs children in Jerusalem hospitals who were victims of shrapnel and helps women start businesses in impoverished countries will burn in... a Lake of Fire forever because she is an atheist." Explain how this makes any sense at all without sounding completely immoral and insane. You can't. Your religion is a massive failure.

This is based purely on your own moral position, as any explanation that doesn't assume that position will be considered immoral and insane. However, the morality of an omniscient, omnipotent being will likely be quite different than that of a very limited being who assumes that he is the ultimate decider of morality.

The morality of an omniscient and omnipotent being would also be easily justifiable and explainable, unless this being felt that providing the information to do so was not important. This morality would be impossible to argue against because it would be as perfect as the being it came from, can you provide such morality or even give reasoning why the situation in the OP would be moral according to it?
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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10/14/2012 3:28:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/14/2012 2:25:29 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 10/14/2012 12:33:55 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/14/2012 11:03:16 AM, muzebreak wrote:
At 10/14/2012 9:49:55 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/14/2012 2:57:23 AM, ATHOS wrote:
No Christian has been able to answer this: According to Christian theology, a child rapist and murderer can repent to Jesus and go to heaven, no problem.

But a person like Natalie Portman who has shown great empathy, helps with human rights causes, visits and hugs children in Jerusalem hospitals who were victims of shrapnel and helps women start businesses in impoverished countries will burn in... a Lake of Fire forever because she is an atheist." Explain how this makes any sense at all without sounding completely immoral and insane. You can't. Your religion is a massive failure.

I'd humbly suggest you dig a bit deeper into Christian theology. There's far more to it than the exclusivistic understanding of soteriology that you're railing against. For example, there is inclusivism.

Your post does not address the point,

Yes it does.

No it doesn't.


Lol, yeah.


as inclusivism refers to other religions that might be partially true and therefor allow for the person to be saved,

The scope of inclusivism isn't necessarily limited to other religious people.

From what I'v read, inclusivism is the theory that some religions stem from the ultimate truth, and that little kernel of truth that still exist's in them is what allows for some people of that religion to go to heaven. Can you explain what it is if not that?


http://books.google.com...


and his point was that an atheist who does much good would be tortured for eternity while a child rapist who repents and accepts jesus will be given eternal bliss. And while I agree, to an extent, that there is more to it, there are cases where that is not true. He is clearly directing this at those who follow a sect where this is the case. And many such sects exist.

No, he is clearly directing this as what he perceives to be a fundamental christian doctrine, and I'm pointing out that it isn't so.

And a large portion of christians would disagree and say that it is so.

They'd be wrong then.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
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10/14/2012 5:33:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/14/2012 2:32:59 PM, Koopin wrote:
At 10/14/2012 2:57:23 AM, ATHOS wrote:
No Christian has been able to answer this

lol

Trololololol.
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muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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10/14/2012 6:38:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/14/2012 3:28:28 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/14/2012 2:25:29 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 10/14/2012 12:33:55 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/14/2012 11:03:16 AM, muzebreak wrote:
At 10/14/2012 9:49:55 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/14/2012 2:57:23 AM, ATHOS wrote:
No Christian has been able to answer this: According to Christian theology, a child rapist and murderer can repent to Jesus and go to heaven, no problem.

But a person like Natalie Portman who has shown great empathy, helps with human rights causes, visits and hugs children in Jerusalem hospitals who were victims of shrapnel and helps women start businesses in impoverished countries will burn in... a Lake of Fire forever because she is an atheist." Explain how this makes any sense at all without sounding completely immoral and insane. You can't. Your religion is a massive failure.

I'd humbly suggest you dig a bit deeper into Christian theology. There's far more to it than the exclusivistic understanding of soteriology that you're railing against. For example, there is inclusivism.

Your post does not address the point,

Yes it does.

No it doesn't.


Lol, yeah.

Rofl, nope.



as inclusivism refers to other religions that might be partially true and therefor allow for the person to be saved,

The scope of inclusivism isn't necessarily limited to other religious people.

From what I'v read, inclusivism is the theory that some religions stem from the ultimate truth, and that little kernel of truth that still exist's in them is what allows for some people of that religion to go to heaven. Can you explain what it is if not that?


http://books.google.com...

I asked you for a definition, not a book.



and his point was that an atheist who does much good would be tortured for eternity while a child rapist who repents and accepts jesus will be given eternal bliss. And while I agree, to an extent, that there is more to it, there are cases where that is not true. He is clearly directing this at those who follow a sect where this is the case. And many such sects exist.

No, he is clearly directing this as what he perceives to be a fundamental christian doctrine, and I'm pointing out that it isn't so.

And a large portion of christians would disagree and say that it is so.

They'd be wrong then.

So, are you saying that people can't decide what the fundamentals of their beliefs are? Or are you saying that the bible explicitly says that an atheist can go to heaven? If the later, please provide a quote.

Either way, I find it hard to argue with the pretty clear message given in Deuteronomy 17:2-5, Deuteronomy 13:7-12, Deuteronomy 13:13-19, Exodus 22:19, 2 Chronicles 15:12-13.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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10/14/2012 8:33:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/14/2012 6:38:39 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 10/14/2012 3:28:28 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/14/2012 2:25:29 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 10/14/2012 12:33:55 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/14/2012 11:03:16 AM, muzebreak wrote:
At 10/14/2012 9:49:55 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/14/2012 2:57:23 AM, ATHOS wrote:
No Christian has been able to answer this: According to Christian theology, a child rapist and murderer can repent to Jesus and go to heaven, no problem.

But a person like Natalie Portman who has shown great empathy, helps with human rights causes, visits and hugs children in Jerusalem hospitals who were victims of shrapnel and helps women start businesses in impoverished countries will burn in... a Lake of Fire forever because she is an atheist." Explain how this makes any sense at all without sounding completely immoral and insane. You can't. Your religion is a massive failure.

I'd humbly suggest you dig a bit deeper into Christian theology. There's far more to it than the exclusivistic understanding of soteriology that you're railing against. For example, there is inclusivism.

Your post does not address the point,

Yes it does.

No it doesn't.


Lol, yeah.

Rofl, nope.


Rofl, yes.



as inclusivism refers to other religions that might be partially true and therefor allow for the person to be saved,

The scope of inclusivism isn't necessarily limited to other religious people.

From what I'v read, inclusivism is the theory that some religions stem from the ultimate truth, and that little kernel of truth that still exist's in them is what allows for some people of that religion to go to heaven. Can you explain what it is if not that?


http://books.google.com...

I asked you for a definition, not a book.


http://www.ttc.edu.sg...



and his point was that an atheist who does much good would be tortured for eternity while a child rapist who repents and accepts jesus will be given eternal bliss. And while I agree, to an extent, that there is more to it, there are cases where that is not true. He is clearly directing this at those who follow a sect where this is the case. And many such sects exist.

No, he is clearly directing this as what he perceives to be a fundamental christian doctrine, and I'm pointing out that it isn't so.

And a large portion of christians would disagree and say that it is so.

They'd be wrong then.

So, are you saying that people can't decide what the fundamentals of their beliefs are?

I'm saying people can be wrong about what constitutes a fundamental doctrine of a religion - even their religion.

Or are you saying that the bible explicitly says that an atheist can go to heaven? If the later, please provide a quote.


No? It'd be an implication of inclusivism though.

Either way, I find it hard to argue with the pretty clear message given in Deuteronomy 17:2-5, Deuteronomy 13:7-12, Deuteronomy 13:13-19, Exodus 22:19, 2 Chronicles 15:12-13.

? Not sure how this vitiates against inclusivism.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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10/15/2012 5:02:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/14/2012 8:33:48 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/14/2012 6:38:39 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 10/14/2012 3:28:28 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/14/2012 2:25:29 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 10/14/2012 12:33:55 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/14/2012 11:03:16 AM, muzebreak wrote:
At 10/14/2012 9:49:55 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/14/2012 2:57:23 AM, ATHOS wrote:
No Christian has been able to answer this: According to Christian theology, a child rapist and murderer can repent to Jesus and go to heaven, no problem.

But a person like Natalie Portman who has shown great empathy, helps with human rights causes, visits and hugs children in Jerusalem hospitals who were victims of shrapnel and helps women start businesses in impoverished countries will burn in... a Lake of Fire forever because she is an atheist." Explain how this makes any sense at all without sounding completely immoral and insane. You can't. Your religion is a massive failure.

I'd humbly suggest you dig a bit deeper into Christian theology. There's far more to it than the exclusivistic understanding of soteriology that you're railing against. For example, there is inclusivism.

Your post does not address the point,

Yes it does.

No it doesn't.


Lol, yeah.

Rofl, nope.


Rofl, yes.

Don't steal my acronym! Oh, and lmfao, no.




as inclusivism refers to other religions that might be partially true and therefor allow for the person to be saved,

The scope of inclusivism isn't necessarily limited to other religious people.

From what I'v read, inclusivism is the theory that some religions stem from the ultimate truth, and that little kernel of truth that still exist's in them is what allows for some people of that religion to go to heaven. Can you explain what it is if not that?


http://books.google.com...

I asked you for a definition, not a book.


http://www.ttc.edu.sg...

Again, I asked for a definition not a book.




and his point was that an atheist who does much good would be tortured for eternity while a child rapist who repents and accepts jesus will be given eternal bliss. And while I agree, to an extent, that there is more to it, there are cases where that is not true. He is clearly directing this at those who follow a sect where this is the case. And many such sects exist.

No, he is clearly directing this as what he perceives to be a fundamental christian doctrine, and I'm pointing out that it isn't so.

And a large portion of christians would disagree and say that it is so.

They'd be wrong then.

So, are you saying that people can't decide what the fundamentals of their beliefs are?

I'm saying people can be wrong about what constitutes a fundamental doctrine of a religion - even their religion.

And how is it that they are wrong? Do you have an argument for this beyond your inclusivism claim, because most christians would disagree that inclusivism is valid.


Or are you saying that the bible explicitly says that an atheist can go to heaven? If the later, please provide a quote.


No? It'd be an implication of inclusivism though.

Either way, I find it hard to argue with the pretty clear message given in Deuteronomy 17:2-5, Deuteronomy 13:7-12, Deuteronomy 13:13-19, Exodus 22:19, 2 Chronicles 15:12-13.

? Not sure how this vitiates against inclusivism.

Well, either the christian god is ok with atheists and people of other religions going to heaven, he just wants them to be murdered on earth. Or inclusivism doesn't have a dog in this fight.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
themuzicman
Posts: 3
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10/15/2012 7:57:08 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/14/2012 2:57:23 AM, ATHOS wrote:
No Christian has been able to answer this: According to Christian theology, a child rapist and murderer can repent to Jesus and go to heaven, no problem.

But a person like Natalie Portman who has shown great empathy, helps with human rights causes, visits and hugs children in Jerusalem hospitals who were victims of shrapnel and helps women start businesses in impoverished countries will burn in... a Lake of Fire forever because she is an atheist." Explain how this makes any sense at all without sounding completely immoral and insane. You can't. Your religion is a massive failure.
-------------------------------------------------

Your error is applying a low standard. Too low. Christianity states that neither deserves eternal life. Both have sinned, and thus both are under the consequence of sin. So, it doesn't matter how much good NP does, she falls short just like the rest of us.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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10/15/2012 8:08:06 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/15/2012 5:02:12 AM, muzebreak wrote:

http://www.ttc.edu.sg...

Again, I asked for a definition not a book.


...what are you talking about? It explicitly has a definition:

"We prefer the terminology according to which that man is called
an "anonymous Christian" who on the one hand has de facto
accepted of his freedom this gracious self-offering on God"s part
through faith, hope, and love, while on the other he is absolutely
not yet a Christian at the social level (through baptism and Church & Society Vol 4, No 1
24

membership of the Church) or in the sense of having consciously
objectified his Christianity to himself in his own mind (by
explicit Christian faith resulting from having hearkened to the
explicit Christian message) We might therefore put it as follows:
the "anonymous Christian" in our sense of the term is the pagan
after the beginning of the Christian mission, who lives in the
state of Christ"s grace through faith, hope and love, yet who has
no explicit knowledge of the fact that his life is orientated in
grace-given salvation to Jesus Christ.
1"



and his point was that an atheist who does much good would be tortured for eternity while a child rapist who repents and accepts jesus will be given eternal bliss. And while I agree, to an extent, that there is more to it, there are cases where that is not true. He is clearly directing this at those who follow a sect where this is the case. And many such sects exist.

No, he is clearly directing this as what he perceives to be a fundamental christian doctrine, and I'm pointing out that it isn't so.

And a large portion of christians would disagree and say that it is so.

They'd be wrong then.

So, are you saying that people can't decide what the fundamentals of their beliefs are?

I'm saying people can be wrong about what constitutes a fundamental doctrine of a religion - even their religion.

And how is it that they are wrong? Do you have an argument for this beyond your inclusivism claim, because most christians would disagree that inclusivism is valid.


Most Christians are Roman Catholic and inclusivism in an official doctrine of the church. There also numerous non-catholic Christian denominations (and people) who are inclusivists. Are you sure you want to make that "most christians" claim?


Or are you saying that the bible explicitly says that an atheist can go to heaven? If the later, please provide a quote.


No? It'd be an implication of inclusivism though.

Either way, I find it hard to argue with the pretty clear message given in Deuteronomy 17:2-5, Deuteronomy 13:7-12, Deuteronomy 13:13-19, Exodus 22:19, 2 Chronicles 15:12-13.

? Not sure how this vitiates against inclusivism.

Well, either the christian god is ok with atheists and people of other religions going to heaven, he just wants them to be murdered on earth. Or inclusivism doesn't have a dog in this fight.

You should probably read that paper I posted
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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10/15/2012 8:19:36 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/15/2012 8:08:06 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/15/2012 5:02:12 AM, muzebreak wrote:

http://www.ttc.edu.sg...

Again, I asked for a definition not a book.


...what are you talking about? It explicitly has a definition:

"We prefer the terminology according to which that man is called
an "anonymous Christian" who on the one hand has de facto
accepted of his freedom this gracious self-offering on God"s part
through faith, hope, and love, while on the other he is absolutely
not yet a Christian at the social level (through baptism and Church & Society Vol 4, No 1
24

membership of the Church) or in the sense of having consciously
objectified his Christianity to himself in his own mind (by
explicit Christian faith resulting from having hearkened to the
explicit Christian message) We might therefore put it as follows:
the "anonymous Christian" in our sense of the term is the pagan
after the beginning of the Christian mission, who lives in the
state of Christ"s grace through faith, hope and love, yet who has
no explicit knowledge of the fact that his life is orientated in
grace-given salvation to Jesus Christ.

I have no clue what "the christian mission" is. What I do know is that alot of atheist's would feel offended by being termed a christian in any way. My self included.

1"



and his point was that an atheist who does much good would be tortured for eternity while a child rapist who repents and accepts jesus will be given eternal bliss. And while I agree, to an extent, that there is more to it, there are cases where that is not true. He is clearly directing this at those who follow a sect where this is the case. And many such sects exist.

No, he is clearly directing this as what he perceives to be a fundamental christian doctrine, and I'm pointing out that it isn't so.

And a large portion of christians would disagree and say that it is so.

They'd be wrong then.

So, are you saying that people can't decide what the fundamentals of their beliefs are?

I'm saying people can be wrong about what constitutes a fundamental doctrine of a religion - even their religion.

And how is it that they are wrong? Do you have an argument for this beyond your inclusivism claim, because most christians would disagree that inclusivism is valid.


Most Christians are Roman Catholic and inclusivism in an official doctrine of the church. There also numerous non-catholic Christian denominations (and people) who are inclusivists. Are you sure you want to make that "most christians" claim?

Are you sure you want to make the claim that Roman Catholics all follow every doctrine, or would you call the pope infallabil? In so far as I have experience, most christians do not abibe by this doctrine.



Or are you saying that the bible explicitly says that an atheist can go to heaven? If the later, please provide a quote.


No? It'd be an implication of inclusivism though.

Either way, I find it hard to argue with the pretty clear message given in Deuteronomy 17:2-5, Deuteronomy 13:7-12, Deuteronomy 13:13-19, Exodus 22:19, 2 Chronicles 15:12-13.

? Not sure how this vitiates against inclusivism.

Well, either the christian god is ok with atheists and people of other religions going to heaven, he just wants them to be murdered on earth. Or inclusivism doesn't have a dog in this fight.

You should probably read that paper I posted

So the paper breachs the issue of commands to kill non-believers and those of other religions? Could you point me to where this section is?
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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10/15/2012 8:23:22 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/15/2012 8:19:36 AM, muzebreak wrote:
Are you sure you want to make the claim that Roman Catholics all follow every doctrine, or would you call the pope infallabil? In so far as I have experience, most christians do not abibe by this doctrine.

Roman Catholics should believe every doctrine.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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10/15/2012 8:28:50 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/14/2012 2:57:23 AM, ATHOS wrote:
No Christian has been able to answer this: According to Christian theology, a child rapist and murderer can repent to Jesus and go to heaven, no problem.

But a person like Natalie Portman who has shown great empathy, helps with human rights causes, visits and hugs children in Jerusalem hospitals who were victims of shrapnel and helps women start businesses in impoverished countries will burn in... a Lake of Fire forever because she is an atheist." Explain how this makes any sense at all without sounding completely immoral and insane. You can't. Your religion is a massive failure.

Your uninformed characterization of Christianity is a massive failure.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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10/15/2012 8:43:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/15/2012 8:23:22 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 10/15/2012 8:19:36 AM, muzebreak wrote:
Are you sure you want to make the claim that Roman Catholics all follow every doctrine, or would you call the pope infallabil? In so far as I have experience, most christians do not abibe by this doctrine.

Roman Catholics should believe every doctrine.

So the pope was correct to protect the pedophiles, and to request families not to come forward to the police?
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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10/15/2012 8:57:47 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/15/2012 8:43:05 AM, muzebreak wrote:
At 10/15/2012 8:23:22 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 10/15/2012 8:19:36 AM, muzebreak wrote:
Are you sure you want to make the claim that Roman Catholics all follow every doctrine, or would you call the pope infallabil? In so far as I have experience, most christians do not abibe by this doctrine.

Roman Catholics should believe every doctrine.

So the pope was correct to protect the pedophiles, and to request families not to come forward to the police?

I'm pretty sure that that doesn't constitute a catholic doctrine, so your point is immaterial here.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Posts: 2,900
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10/15/2012 9:09:47 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/15/2012 8:57:47 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/15/2012 8:43:05 AM, muzebreak wrote:
At 10/15/2012 8:23:22 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 10/15/2012 8:19:36 AM, muzebreak wrote:
Are you sure you want to make the claim that Roman Catholics all follow every doctrine, or would you call the pope infallabil? In so far as I have experience, most christians do not abibe by this doctrine.

Roman Catholics should believe every doctrine.

So the pope was correct to protect the pedophiles, and to request families not to come forward to the police?

I'm pretty sure that that doesn't constitute a catholic doctrine, so your point is immaterial here.

Yeah, what pcp said.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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10/15/2012 9:13:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/15/2012 9:09:47 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 10/15/2012 8:57:47 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/15/2012 8:43:05 AM, muzebreak wrote:
At 10/15/2012 8:23:22 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 10/15/2012 8:19:36 AM, muzebreak wrote:
Are you sure you want to make the claim that Roman Catholics all follow every doctrine, or would you call the pope infallabil? In so far as I have experience, most christians do not abibe by this doctrine.

Roman Catholics should believe every doctrine.

So the pope was correct to protect the pedophiles, and to request families not to come forward to the police?

I'm pretty sure that that doesn't constitute a catholic doctrine, so your point is immaterial here.

Yeah, what pcp said.

So papal infallibility is not a catholic doctrine?
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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10/15/2012 9:14:40 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/15/2012 8:57:47 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/15/2012 8:43:05 AM, muzebreak wrote:
At 10/15/2012 8:23:22 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 10/15/2012 8:19:36 AM, muzebreak wrote:
Are you sure you want to make the claim that Roman Catholics all follow every doctrine, or would you call the pope infallabil? In so far as I have experience, most christians do not abibe by this doctrine.

Roman Catholics should believe every doctrine.

So the pope was correct to protect the pedophiles, and to request families not to come forward to the police?

I'm pretty sure that that doesn't constitute a catholic doctrine, so your point is immaterial here.

Do you contest that papal infallibility is a doctrine of the catholic church then?
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Posts: 2,900
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10/15/2012 9:16:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/15/2012 9:14:40 AM, muzebreak wrote:
Do you contest that papal infallibility is a doctrine of the catholic church then?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you don't understand papal infallibility.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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10/15/2012 9:17:37 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/14/2012 2:57:23 AM, ATHOS wrote:
No Christian has been able to answer this: According to Christian theology, a child rapist and murderer can repent to Jesus and go to heaven, no problem.

But a person like Natalie Portman who has shown great empathy, helps with human rights causes, visits and hugs children in Jerusalem hospitals who were victims of shrapnel and helps women start businesses in impoverished countries will burn in... a Lake of Fire forever because she is an atheist." Explain how this makes any sense at all without sounding completely immoral and insane. You can't. Your religion is a massive failure.

Trollololololololol
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
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10/15/2012 9:20:29 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/15/2012 9:16:12 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 10/15/2012 9:14:40 AM, muzebreak wrote:
Do you contest that papal infallibility is a doctrine of the catholic church then?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you don't understand papal infallibility.

"Papal infallibility is a dogma of the Catholic Church which states that, in virtue of the promise of Jesus to Peter, the Pope is preserved from the possibility of error" Is that a fair overview of it?

Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org...
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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10/15/2012 9:21:51 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/15/2012 9:13:56 AM, muzebreak wrote:
At 10/15/2012 9:09:47 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 10/15/2012 8:57:47 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/15/2012 8:43:05 AM, muzebreak wrote:
At 10/15/2012 8:23:22 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 10/15/2012 8:19:36 AM, muzebreak wrote:
Are you sure you want to make the claim that Roman Catholics all follow every doctrine, or would you call the pope infallabil? In so far as I have experience, most christians do not abibe by this doctrine.

Roman Catholics should believe every doctrine.

So the pope was correct to protect the pedophiles, and to request families not to come forward to the police?

I'm pretty sure that that doesn't constitute a catholic doctrine, so your point is immaterial here.

Yeah, what pcp said.

So papal infallibility is not a catholic doctrine?

I'm not even catholic and i know you're misunderstanding the doctrine. This will give you a nice overview of what it is and what it is not.

http://www.catholic.com...

Check out the clarifications section.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!