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WCF CHAPTER III"Of God"s Eternal Decree

joneszj
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10/15/2012 6:23:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
1. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: (Eph. 1:11, Rom. 11:33, Heb. 6:17, Rom. 9:15,18) yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, (James 1:13,17, 1 John 1:5) nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established. (Acts 2:23, Matt. 17:12, Acts 4:27"28, John 19:11, Prov. 16:33)
2. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions, (Acts 15:18, 1 Sam. 23:11"12, Matt. 11:21, 23) yet hath He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions. (Rom. 9:11, 13, 16, 18)
3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels (1 Tim. 5:21, Matt. 25:41) are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death. (Rom. 9:22"23, Eph. 1:5"6, Prov. 16:4)
4. These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished. (2 Tim. 2:19, John 13:18)
5. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory, (Eph. 1:4, 9, 11, Rom. 8:30, 2 Tim. 1:9, 1 Thess. 5:9) out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto: (Rom. 9:11, 13, 16, Eph. 1:4, 9) and all to the praise of His glorious grace. (Eph. 1:6, 12)
6. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto. (1 Pet. 1:2, Eph. 1:4"5, Eph. 2:10, 2 Thess. 2:13) Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, (1 Thess. 5:9"10, 1 Tit. 2:14) are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified,adopted, sanctified, (Rom. 8:30, Eph. 1:5, 2 Thess. 2:13) and kept by His power, through faith, unto salvation. (1 Pet. 1:5) Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only. (John 17:9, Rom. 8:28, John 6:64"65, John 10:26, John 8:47, 1 John 2:19)
7. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or witholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice. (Matt. 11:25"26, Rom. 9:17"18, 21"22, 2 Tim. 2:19"20, Jude 4, 1 Pet. 2:8)
8. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, (Rom. 9:20, Rom. 11:33, Deut. 29:29) that men, attending the will of God revealed in His Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. (2 Pet. 1:10) So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God; (Eph. 1:6, Rom. 11:33) and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel. (Rom. 11:5, 6, 20, 2 Pet. 1:10, Rom. 8:33, Luke 10:20)

The Westminster confession of faith. 1996. Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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10/15/2012 6:24:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
1. God has ordained everything in a manner that He is not the author of sin and does not violence to the will of the creature. The contingency of secondary things are not taken away but are established.

2. God has not ordained anything by means of 'forknowledge'.

3. Some men & angels are predestined to everlasting life (heaven) and others forordained to everlasting death (hell) all to His glory.

4. The number of elect is determined and unchangable

5. God predestined the elect with no contingency as to a forknowledge of mans works to cause His electing them.

6. God has ordained all the means to saving the elect. Their election is determined and unchangable. The elect only are saved.

7. God has passed over the non-elect (reprobate) and ordained them to wrath of their sin to the Gods glorious justice.

8. The doctrine of predestination is to be handeled in such a manner as to preserve the elect of their salvation.
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Posts: 2,900
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10/16/2012 2:12:14 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/15/2012 6:24:21 PM, joneszj wrote:
1. God has ordained everything in a manner that He is not the author of sin and does not violence to the will of the creature. The contingency of secondary things are not taken away but are established.

How can God have ordained everything and still not be the author of sin? If he ordained everything, then he ordained sin, did he not?

2. God has not ordained anything by means of 'forknowledge'.

3. Some men & angels are predestined to everlasting life (heaven) and others forordained to everlasting death (hell) all to His glory.

So God predestined people to hell?

4. The number of elect is determined and unchangable

5. God predestined the elect with no contingency as to a forknowledge of mans works to cause His electing them.

6. God has ordained all the means to saving the elect. Their election is determined and unchangable. The elect only are saved.

7. God has passed over the non-elect (reprobate) and ordained them to wrath of their sin to the Gods glorious justice.

8. The doctrine of predestination is to be handeled in such a manner as to preserve the elect of their salvation.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Posts: 2,900
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10/16/2012 7:12:50 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
2 Peter 3:9

"The Lord delayeth not his promise, as some imagine, but dealeth patiently for your sake, not willing that any should perish, but that all should return to penance."

If He ordains everything according to His will and He is not willing that any should perish, it doesn't make too much sense for any to perish.

Titus 2:11

"For the grace of God our Savior hath appeared to all men;"

Just some food for thought.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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10/16/2012 7:58:45 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Wouldn't it seem unjust if you were all powerful and told someone they couldn't eat a doughnut or else you would send them to hell. And then since you are all powerful you force them to eat the doughnut without them having a choice in the matter and then you send them to hell as punishment. Does that seem just or unjust to you?
DanielChristopherBlowes
Posts: 1,066
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10/16/2012 8:10:35 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/15/2012 6:23:54 PM, joneszj wrote:
1. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: (Eph. 1:11, Rom. 11:33, Heb. 6:17, Rom. 9:15,18) yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, (James 1:13,17, 1 John 1:5) nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established. (Acts 2:23, Matt. 17:12, Acts 4:27"28, John 19:11, Prov. 16:33)
2. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions, (Acts 15:18, 1 Sam. 23:11"12, Matt. 11:21, 23) yet hath He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions. (Rom. 9:11, 13, 16, 18)
3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels (1 Tim. 5:21, Matt. 25:41) are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death. (Rom. 9:22"23, Eph. 1:5"6, Prov. 16:4)
4. These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished. (2 Tim. 2:19, John 13:18)
5. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory, (Eph. 1:4, 9, 11, Rom. 8:30, 2 Tim. 1:9, 1 Thess. 5:9) out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto: (Rom. 9:11, 13, 16, Eph. 1:4, 9) and all to the praise of His glorious grace. (Eph. 1:6, 12)
6. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto. (1 Pet. 1:2, Eph. 1:4"5, Eph. 2:10, 2 Thess. 2:13) Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, (1 Thess. 5:9"10, 1 Tit. 2:14) are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified,adopted, sanctified, (Rom. 8:30, Eph. 1:5, 2 Thess. 2:13) and kept by His power, through faith, unto salvation. (1 Pet. 1:5) Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only. (John 17:9, Rom. 8:28, John 6:64"65, John 10:26, John 8:47, 1 John 2:19)
7. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or witholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice. (Matt. 11:25"26, Rom. 9:17"18, 21"22, 2 Tim. 2:19"20, Jude 4, 1 Pet. 2:8)
8. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, (Rom. 9:20, Rom. 11:33, Deut. 29:29) that men, attending the will of God revealed in His Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. (2 Pet. 1:10) So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God; (Eph. 1:6, Rom. 11:33) and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel. (Rom. 11:5, 6, 20, 2 Pet. 1:10, Rom. 8:33, Luke 10:20)


The Westminster confession of faith. 1996. Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

God has willed that His will not be done so that we can choose 'your will be done' or rather accept that only Jesus has truly chosen this and never failed.. (Sinned)
Everyone on the side of Truth listens to Me. (Jesus Christ)
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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10/16/2012 8:12:47 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/16/2012 2:12:14 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 10/15/2012 6:24:21 PM, joneszj wrote:
1. God has ordained everything in a manner that He is not the author of sin and does not violence to the will of the creature. The contingency of secondary things are not taken away but are established.

How can God have ordained everything and still not be the author of sin? If he ordained everything, then he ordained sin, did he not?

The easiest way I know how to explain things is by using terms like primary and secondary causation. If you take a few minutes to study Compatibilism it would make more sense then me trying to flesh it out. Basically, God has ordained & predestined everything. No Christian denies that. But as to 'how' God has ordained everything is where dispute begins. Ill try and make a chart to demonstrate the different views:

1) God ordains everything as the primary cause with no regard to the creatures wills as secondary causes
2) God ordains everything as the primary cause with complete regard to the secondary causes of the creatures
3) God ordains nothing (which would mean that nothing happens)

The primary cause for everything is God. By primary cause I am generally meaning that He has established the choices of the secondary causes. Secondary causes are that of creatures. So, based on the will of the creatures God has ordained everything.

No we can dig deeper into the nature of primary causation. Within primary causation we can have a positive and negative influence as a primary cause. A positive influence would be something in which the cause positively works. A negative influence would be something where the primary cause allows to happen without intervention.

So, everything happens either with a positive or negative influence from God but all is still ordained by God.

2. God has not ordained anything by means of 'forknowledge'.

3. Some men & angels are predestined to everlasting life (heaven) and others forordained to everlasting death (hell) all to His glory.

So God predestined people to hell?

This is where it would be wise to make a differentiation of what I said above. Essentially, yes but not in the same manner. For the elect God positively moves on behalf of the sinner to save them. For the reprobate God passes them by effectually giving them over to their sin, an example of a negative influence. So, God has ordained all: positively electing and saving the elect, while negatively passing over the reprobate.

4. The number of elect is determined and unchangable

5. God predestined the elect with no contingency as to a forknowledge of mans works to cause His electing them.

6. God has ordained all the means to saving the elect. Their election is determined and unchangable. The elect only are saved.

7. God has passed over the non-elect (reprobate) and ordained them to wrath of their sin to the Gods glorious justice.

8. The doctrine of predestination is to be handeled in such a manner as to preserve the elect of their salvation.

That is not exactly an easy cookie to swallow but I hoped I could help. It would be easier to just look up Compatibilism or something.
joneszj
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10/16/2012 8:14:03 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/16/2012 7:12:50 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
2 Peter 3:9

"The Lord delayeth not his promise, as some imagine, but dealeth patiently for your sake, not willing that any should perish, but that all should return to penance."

If He ordains everything according to His will and He is not willing that any should perish, it doesn't make too much sense for any to perish.

Titus 2:11

"For the grace of God our Savior hath appeared to all men;"

Just some food for thought.

If you googled these verses and added the word 'reformed' in the search chances are the first link to appear would be my response lolz.
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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10/16/2012 8:15:01 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/16/2012 7:58:45 AM, stubs wrote:
Wouldn't it seem unjust if you were all powerful and told someone they couldn't eat a doughnut or else you would send them to hell. And then since you are all powerful you force them to eat the doughnut without them having a choice in the matter and then you send them to hell as punishment. Does that seem just or unjust to you?

Yea, that is a fine example of what I am not talking about. Way to go!
joneszj
Posts: 1,202
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10/16/2012 8:16:34 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/16/2012 8:10:35 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 10/15/2012 6:23:54 PM, joneszj wrote:
1. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: (Eph. 1:11, Rom. 11:33, Heb. 6:17, Rom. 9:15,18) yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, (James 1:13,17, 1 John 1:5) nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established. (Acts 2:23, Matt. 17:12, Acts 4:27"28, John 19:11, Prov. 16:33)
2. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions, (Acts 15:18, 1 Sam. 23:11"12, Matt. 11:21, 23) yet hath He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions. (Rom. 9:11, 13, 16, 18)
3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels (1 Tim. 5:21, Matt. 25:41) are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death. (Rom. 9:22"23, Eph. 1:5"6, Prov. 16:4)
4. These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished. (2 Tim. 2:19, John 13:18)
5. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory, (Eph. 1:4, 9, 11, Rom. 8:30, 2 Tim. 1:9, 1 Thess. 5:9) out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto: (Rom. 9:11, 13, 16, Eph. 1:4, 9) and all to the praise of His glorious grace. (Eph. 1:6, 12)
6. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto. (1 Pet. 1:2, Eph. 1:4"5, Eph. 2:10, 2 Thess. 2:13) Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, (1 Thess. 5:9"10, 1 Tit. 2:14) are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified,adopted, sanctified, (Rom. 8:30, Eph. 1:5, 2 Thess. 2:13) and kept by His power, through faith, unto salvation. (1 Pet. 1:5) Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only. (John 17:9, Rom. 8:28, John 6:64"65, John 10:26, John 8:47, 1 John 2:19)
7. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or witholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice. (Matt. 11:25"26, Rom. 9:17"18, 21"22, 2 Tim. 2:19"20, Jude 4, 1 Pet. 2:8)
8. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, (Rom. 9:20, Rom. 11:33, Deut. 29:29) that men, attending the will of God revealed in His Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. (2 Pet. 1:10) So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God; (Eph. 1:6, Rom. 11:33) and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel. (Rom. 11:5, 6, 20, 2 Pet. 1:10, Rom. 8:33, Luke 10:20)


The Westminster confession of faith. 1996. Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

God has willed that His will not be done so that we can choose 'your will be done' or rather accept that only Jesus has truly chosen this and never failed.. (Sinned)

DATCMOTO!!!! Its good to see you again. How are things?!?!
DanielChristopherBlowes
Posts: 1,066
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10/16/2012 8:26:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/16/2012 8:16:34 AM, joneszj wrote:
At 10/16/2012 8:10:35 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 10/15/2012 6:23:54 PM, joneszj wrote:
1. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: (Eph. 1:11, Rom. 11:33, Heb. 6:17, Rom. 9:15,18) yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, (James 1:13,17, 1 John 1:5) nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established. (Acts 2:23, Matt. 17:12, Acts 4:27"28, John 19:11, Prov. 16:33)
2. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions, (Acts 15:18, 1 Sam. 23:11"12, Matt. 11:21, 23) yet hath He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions. (Rom. 9:11, 13, 16, 18)
3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels (1 Tim. 5:21, Matt. 25:41) are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death. (Rom. 9:22"23, Eph. 1:5"6, Prov. 16:4)
4. These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished. (2 Tim. 2:19, John 13:18)
5. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory, (Eph. 1:4, 9, 11, Rom. 8:30, 2 Tim. 1:9, 1 Thess. 5:9) out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto: (Rom. 9:11, 13, 16, Eph. 1:4, 9) and all to the praise of His glorious grace. (Eph. 1:6, 12)
6. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto. (1 Pet. 1:2, Eph. 1:4"5, Eph. 2:10, 2 Thess. 2:13) Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, (1 Thess. 5:9"10, 1 Tit. 2:14) are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified,adopted, sanctified, (Rom. 8:30, Eph. 1:5, 2 Thess. 2:13) and kept by His power, through faith, unto salvation. (1 Pet. 1:5) Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only. (John 17:9, Rom. 8:28, John 6:64"65, John 10:26, John 8:47, 1 John 2:19)
7. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or witholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice. (Matt. 11:25"26, Rom. 9:17"18, 21"22, 2 Tim. 2:19"20, Jude 4, 1 Pet. 2:8)
8. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, (Rom. 9:20, Rom. 11:33, Deut. 29:29) that men, attending the will of God revealed in His Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. (2 Pet. 1:10) So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God; (Eph. 1:6, Rom. 11:33) and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel. (Rom. 11:5, 6, 20, 2 Pet. 1:10, Rom. 8:33, Luke 10:20)


The Westminster confession of faith. 1996. Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

God has willed that His will not be done so that we can choose 'your will be done' or rather accept that only Jesus has truly chosen this and never failed.. (Sinned)

DATCMOTO!!!! Its good to see you again. How are things?!?!

Very well, thank you.. But I'm no longer hiding behind pseudonyms or icons, it's Mr Blowes or Daniel to YOU;D
Everyone on the side of Truth listens to Me. (Jesus Christ)
joneszj
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10/16/2012 8:28:18 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/16/2012 8:26:32 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 10/16/2012 8:16:34 AM, joneszj wrote:
At 10/16/2012 8:10:35 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 10/15/2012 6:23:54 PM, joneszj wrote:
1. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: (Eph. 1:11, Rom. 11:33, Heb. 6:17, Rom. 9:15,18) yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, (James 1:13,17, 1 John 1:5) nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established. (Acts 2:23, Matt. 17:12, Acts 4:27"28, John 19:11, Prov. 16:33)
2. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions, (Acts 15:18, 1 Sam. 23:11"12, Matt. 11:21, 23) yet hath He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions. (Rom. 9:11, 13, 16, 18)
3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels (1 Tim. 5:21, Matt. 25:41) are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death. (Rom. 9:22"23, Eph. 1:5"6, Prov. 16:4)
4. These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished. (2 Tim. 2:19, John 13:18)
5. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory, (Eph. 1:4, 9, 11, Rom. 8:30, 2 Tim. 1:9, 1 Thess. 5:9) out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto: (Rom. 9:11, 13, 16, Eph. 1:4, 9) and all to the praise of His glorious grace. (Eph. 1:6, 12)
6. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto. (1 Pet. 1:2, Eph. 1:4"5, Eph. 2:10, 2 Thess. 2:13) Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, (1 Thess. 5:9"10, 1 Tit. 2:14) are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified,adopted, sanctified, (Rom. 8:30, Eph. 1:5, 2 Thess. 2:13) and kept by His power, through faith, unto salvation. (1 Pet. 1:5) Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only. (John 17:9, Rom. 8:28, John 6:64"65, John 10:26, John 8:47, 1 John 2:19)
7. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or witholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice. (Matt. 11:25"26, Rom. 9:17"18, 21"22, 2 Tim. 2:19"20, Jude 4, 1 Pet. 2:8)
8. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, (Rom. 9:20, Rom. 11:33, Deut. 29:29) that men, attending the will of God revealed in His Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. (2 Pet. 1:10) So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God; (Eph. 1:6, Rom. 11:33) and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel. (Rom. 11:5, 6, 20, 2 Pet. 1:10, Rom. 8:33, Luke 10:20)


The Westminster confession of faith. 1996. Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

God has willed that His will not be done so that we can choose 'your will be done' or rather accept that only Jesus has truly chosen this and never failed.. (Sinned)

DATCMOTO!!!! Its good to see you again. How are things?!?!

Very well, thank you.. But I'm no longer hiding behind pseudonyms or icons, it's Mr Blowes or Daniel to YOU;D

Can I call you D?
DanielChristopherBlowes
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10/16/2012 8:34:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/16/2012 8:28:18 AM, joneszj wrote:
At 10/16/2012 8:26:32 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 10/16/2012 8:16:34 AM, joneszj wrote:
At 10/16/2012 8:10:35 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 10/15/2012 6:23:54 PM, joneszj wrote:
1. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: (Eph. 1:11, Rom. 11:33, Heb. 6:17, Rom. 9:15,18) yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, (James 1:13,17, 1 John 1:5) nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established. (Acts 2:23, Matt. 17:12, Acts 4:27"28, John 19:11, Prov. 16:33)
2. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions, (Acts 15:18, 1 Sam. 23:11"12, Matt. 11:21, 23) yet hath He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions. (Rom. 9:11, 13, 16, 18)
3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels (1 Tim. 5:21, Matt. 25:41) are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death. (Rom. 9:22"23, Eph. 1:5"6, Prov. 16:4)
4. These angels and men, thus predestinated, and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished. (2 Tim. 2:19, John 13:18)
5. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory, (Eph. 1:4, 9, 11, Rom. 8:30, 2 Tim. 1:9, 1 Thess. 5:9) out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto: (Rom. 9:11, 13, 16, Eph. 1:4, 9) and all to the praise of His glorious grace. (Eph. 1:6, 12)
6. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto. (1 Pet. 1:2, Eph. 1:4"5, Eph. 2:10, 2 Thess. 2:13) Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, (1 Thess. 5:9"10, 1 Tit. 2:14) are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified,adopted, sanctified, (Rom. 8:30, Eph. 1:5, 2 Thess. 2:13) and kept by His power, through faith, unto salvation. (1 Pet. 1:5) Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only. (John 17:9, Rom. 8:28, John 6:64"65, John 10:26, John 8:47, 1 John 2:19)
7. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or witholdeth mercy, as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice. (Matt. 11:25"26, Rom. 9:17"18, 21"22, 2 Tim. 2:19"20, Jude 4, 1 Pet. 2:8)
8. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, (Rom. 9:20, Rom. 11:33, Deut. 29:29) that men, attending the will of God revealed in His Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election. (2 Pet. 1:10) So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God; (Eph. 1:6, Rom. 11:33) and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel. (Rom. 11:5, 6, 20, 2 Pet. 1:10, Rom. 8:33, Luke 10:20)


The Westminster confession of faith. 1996. Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

God has willed that His will not be done so that we can choose 'your will be done' or rather accept that only Jesus has truly chosen this and never failed.. (Sinned)

DATCMOTO!!!! Its good to see you again. How are things?!?!

Very well, thank you.. But I'm no longer hiding behind pseudonyms or icons, it's Mr Blowes or Daniel to YOU;D

Can I call you D?

You can call me anything you want.. Just don't call me after 11.pm ;)
Everyone on the side of Truth listens to Me. (Jesus Christ)
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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10/16/2012 9:16:14 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/16/2012 8:14:03 AM, joneszj wrote:
At 10/16/2012 7:12:50 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
2 Peter 3:9

"The Lord delayeth not his promise, as some imagine, but dealeth patiently for your sake, not willing that any should perish, but that all should return to penance."

If He ordains everything according to His will and He is not willing that any should perish, it doesn't make too much sense for any to perish.

Titus 2:11

"For the grace of God our Savior hath appeared to all men;"

Just some food for thought.

If you googled these verses and added the word 'reformed' in the search chances are the first link to appear would be my response lolz.

The first result I got for 2 Peter 3:9 sounds like it was written by Pastor Bill Clinton.

An excerpt:

"But surely 'all' means 'all'," right? Well usually, yes, but not always."

However, its attempt to try to claim context makes 'all' not mean 'all' is passable, so I won't dispute it for now.

The first result I got for Titus 2:11 oddly enough was some crackpot trying to disprove Reformed Theology with Titus 2:11.

The second result was very unconvincing. It pretty much tried the same "'all' doesn't mean 'all'" defense, but upon reading the context I remain fully convinced that 'all' means 'all', and see no real reason to think otherwise.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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10/16/2012 9:23:38 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/16/2012 8:12:47 AM, joneszj wrote:
The easiest way I know how to explain things is by using terms like primary and secondary causation. If you take a few minutes to study Compatibilism it would make more sense then me trying to flesh it out. Basically, God has ordained & predestined everything. No Christian denies that. But as to 'how' God has ordained everything is where dispute begins. Ill try and make a chart to demonstrate the different views:

1) God ordains everything as the primary cause with no regard to the creatures wills as secondary causes
2) God ordains everything as the primary cause with complete regard to the secondary causes of the creatures
3) God ordains nothing (which would mean that nothing happens)

The primary cause for everything is God. By primary cause I am generally meaning that He has established the choices of the secondary causes. Secondary causes are that of creatures. So, based on the will of the creatures God has ordained everything.

No we can dig deeper into the nature of primary causation. Within primary causation we can have a positive and negative influence as a primary cause. A positive influence would be something in which the cause positively works. A negative influence would be something where the primary cause allows to happen without intervention.

So, everything happens either with a positive or negative influence from God but all is still ordained by God.

Okay...

So did God create people with the intent of them being evil, or did he create them with the potential to be evil and they themselves decided to be evil?
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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10/16/2012 9:26:20 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/16/2012 8:15:01 AM, joneszj wrote:
At 10/16/2012 7:58:45 AM, stubs wrote:
Wouldn't it seem unjust if you were all powerful and told someone they couldn't eat a doughnut or else you would send them to hell. And then since you are all powerful you force them to eat the doughnut without them having a choice in the matter and then you send them to hell as punishment. Does that seem just or unjust to you?

Yea, that is a fine example of what I am not talking about. Way to go!

If I'm understanding this correctly, it would be more along the lines of the person starving, he's so hungry he really, really wants to eat the donut.

Then, you the omnipotent declare "No donuts shall be eaten lest you be damned to hell!".

However, you do nothing to help the poor sap, and the starving fool eats the donut.

Then you damn him to hell.

The same situation occurs with someone else, who is equally bad as the first person, but for this guy you leap out, snatch the donut from his hand, and bellow "DON'T EAT THAT!"

He doesn't eat it, and goes to heaven.

Quick Quiz:

(i) Stupid
(ii) A Strawman
(iii) Wrong
(iv) Right

This example is best described as...

(A) i and ii only
(B) i, ii, and iii only
(C) i and iii only
(D) i and iv only
(E) None of the above
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
joneszj
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10/16/2012 9:52:10 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/16/2012 9:23:38 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 10/16/2012 8:12:47 AM, joneszj wrote:
The easiest way I know how to explain things is by using terms like primary and secondary causation. If you take a few minutes to study Compatibilism it would make more sense then me trying to flesh it out. Basically, God has ordained & predestined everything. No Christian denies that. But as to 'how' God has ordained everything is where dispute begins. Ill try and make a chart to demonstrate the different views:

1) God ordains everything as the primary cause with no regard to the creatures wills as secondary causes
2) God ordains everything as the primary cause with complete regard to the secondary causes of the creatures
3) God ordains nothing (which would mean that nothing happens)

The primary cause for everything is God. By primary cause I am generally meaning that He has established the choices of the secondary causes. Secondary causes are that of creatures. So, based on the will of the creatures God has ordained everything.

No we can dig deeper into the nature of primary causation. Within primary causation we can have a positive and negative influence as a primary cause. A positive influence would be something in which the cause positively works. A negative influence would be something where the primary cause allows to happen without intervention.

So, everything happens either with a positive or negative influence from God but all is still ordained by God.

Okay...

So did God create people with the intent of them being evil, or did he create them with the potential to be evil and they themselves decided to be evil?

Both. First I would have to say that evil was not a cosmic mistake. God ordained everything to include evil (through secondary causes) for a purpose. It is not like God did not see it coming (open theism) or failed to plan for it (lack of sovereignty) properly or designed creation with a evil flaw (a consequence of the free will argument, or also hyper calvinism).

This is very thin ice here. I am willing to leave it to a mystery. However, I am persuaded by a few arguments. First, I agree with Augustine that evil is the absence of good. Then, I reason that anything that is good has its virtue of being good derived from God. In other words, the only reason they are good is because of God. I believe that anything that is good must be sustained by God to remain good. To put it another way, nothing besides God is intrinsically and necessarily good. When God creates things that are good I believe they are good because God created them and sustains them as good. So, in order for evil to occur all God has to do is remove a form of sustaining grace that would allow the creature to act 'free from God' (essentially free will). If God removes the sustaining grace then the creatures in its choosing would begin to deteriorate and thus deviate from good to non-good and to evil. The moral responsibility would still rest on the creature but also in a way that is ordained by a God who is sovereign over everything. But such an explanation is only really necessary for the first evil. All other evils after that could be and I think should be explained differently. Anyways...
joneszj
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10/16/2012 9:58:06 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/16/2012 9:26:20 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 10/16/2012 8:15:01 AM, joneszj wrote:
At 10/16/2012 7:58:45 AM, stubs wrote:
Wouldn't it seem unjust if you were all powerful and told someone they couldn't eat a doughnut or else you would send them to hell. And then since you are all powerful you force them to eat the doughnut without them having a choice in the matter and then you send them to hell as punishment. Does that seem just or unjust to you?

Yea, that is a fine example of what I am not talking about. Way to go!

If I'm understanding this correctly, it would be more along the lines of the person starving, he's so hungry he really, really wants to eat the donut.

Then, you the omnipotent declare "No donuts shall be eaten lest you be damned to hell!".

However, you do nothing to help the poor sap, and the starving fool eats the donut.

Then you damn him to hell.

The same situation occurs with someone else, who is equally bad as the first person, but for this guy you leap out, snatch the donut from his hand, and bellow "DON'T EAT THAT!"

He doesn't eat it, and goes to heaven.

No, that is not how I would put it. I would put it like this: the person is starving. They find poison. God tells them not to eat the poison but instead to drink water, cuz its healthy ;) The starving fellow susses at God and eats the poison. The person dies and goes to hell because they hated God and what God was offering the fellow. The same situation, a fellow is starving, God takes away the poison the man drank, cleanses the man, and gives him healthy water. God did this not because of the man, but because it pleased God to do so.

Quick Quiz:

(i) Stupid
(ii) A Strawman
(iii) Wrong
(iv) Right

This example is best described as...

(A) i and ii only
(B) i, ii, and iii only
(C) i and iii only
(D) i and iv only
(E) None of the above

I am not sure what the quiz is about ><
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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10/16/2012 10:06:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/16/2012 9:58:06 AM, joneszj wrote:
No, that is not how I would put it. I would put it like this: the person is starving. They find poison. God tells them not to eat the poison but instead to drink water, cuz its healthy ;) The starving fellow susses at God and eats the poison. The person dies and goes to hell because they hated God and what God was offering the fellow. The same situation, a fellow is starving, God takes away the poison the man drank, cleanses the man, and gives him healthy water. God did this not because of the man, but because it pleased God to do so.

I am not sure what the quiz is about ><

That quiz was about my example.

The poison example works, but only if the person doesn't know that it's poison. It also doesn't jive with total depravity, but I'm not sure if we've gotten to that yet.

Considering total depravity, I find it unlikely that the person would listen to God unless God forced them, so it's not that the person would be moving in active defiance of God but because he can't listen to God if God doesn't give him grace.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
joneszj
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10/16/2012 10:07:08 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/16/2012 9:16:14 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 10/16/2012 8:14:03 AM, joneszj wrote:
At 10/16/2012 7:12:50 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
2 Peter 3:9

"The Lord delayeth not his promise, as some imagine, but dealeth patiently for your sake, not willing that any should perish, but that all should return to penance."

If He ordains everything according to His will and He is not willing that any should perish, it doesn't make too much sense for any to perish.

Titus 2:11

"For the grace of God our Savior hath appeared to all men;"

Just some food for thought.

If you googled these verses and added the word 'reformed' in the search chances are the first link to appear would be my response lolz.

The first result I got for 2 Peter 3:9 sounds like it was written by Pastor Bill Clinton.

An excerpt:

"But surely 'all' means 'all'," right? Well usually, yes, but not always."

However, its attempt to try to claim context makes 'all' not mean 'all' is passable, so I won't dispute it for now.

The first result I got for Titus 2:11 oddly enough was some crackpot trying to disprove Reformed Theology with Titus 2:11.

The second result was very unconvincing. It pretty much tried the same "'all' doesn't mean 'all'" defense, but upon reading the context I remain fully convinced that 'all' means 'all', and see no real reason to think otherwise.

Well generally with 2 Pet 3, the context is that he is talking to Christians being persecuted if I remember correctly. The all there is specifically for them. Though I am not against it being for all people everywhere either. I do believe God desires all to come to repentance. Just as He commands no one to murder and such. I just believe that He specifically set apart and predestined the elect unto adoption through Jesus.

Titus 2:11 grace appearing to all men.
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,(ESV)
Salvation is offered to all people. God gave His son to the world. But who is it effectual to? Those who believe. I think the 'us' in verse 12 is referring to believers. I think that is fairly straight forward.
joneszj
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10/16/2012 10:10:13 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/16/2012 10:06:32 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 10/16/2012 9:58:06 AM, joneszj wrote:
No, that is not how I would put it. I would put it like this: the person is starving. They find poison. God tells them not to eat the poison but instead to drink water, cuz its healthy ;) The starving fellow susses at God and eats the poison. The person dies and goes to hell because they hated God and what God was offering the fellow. The same situation, a fellow is starving, God takes away the poison the man drank, cleanses the man, and gives him healthy water. God did this not because of the man, but because it pleased God to do so.

I am not sure what the quiz is about ><

That quiz was about my example.

The poison example works, but only if the person doesn't know that it's poison. It also doesn't jive with total depravity, but I'm not sure if we've gotten to that yet.

Why wouldnt it work if he knew it was poison? We drink unhealthy and poisonous things regularly. If I could correct my story I would add that the person knew it was poison. Plus, it could be read because the water was made known to be healthy. Why doesn't it jive with TD? I am kinda lost there.

Considering total depravity, I find it unlikely that the person would listen to God unless God forced them, so it's not that the person would be moving in active defiance of God but because he can't listen to God if God doesn't give him grace.

I would say: he can't listen because he wont listen.
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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10/16/2012 10:10:23 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/16/2012 10:07:08 AM, joneszj wrote:
Well generally with 2 Pet 3, the context is that he is talking to Christians being persecuted if I remember correctly. The all there is specifically for them. Though I am not against it being for all people everywhere either. I do believe God desires all to come to repentance. Just as He commands no one to murder and such. I just believe that He specifically set apart and predestined the elect unto adoption through Jesus.

If it is for people everywhere, then it fails to work with Reformed Theology.

If God ordains everything according to His will, and His will is that all will be saved, the logical conclusion is that all will be saved. That is not the case, so one of the premises must be faulty.

Titus 2:11 grace appearing to all men.
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,(ESV)
Salvation is offered to all people. God gave His son to the world. But who is it effectual to? Those who believe. I think the 'us' in verse 12 is referring to believers. I think that is fairly straight forward.

So how/why do these people believe? Because they themselves choose to believe, or because God forced them to?
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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10/16/2012 10:13:03 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/16/2012 10:10:13 AM, joneszj wrote:
Why wouldnt it work if he knew it was poison? We drink unhealthy and poisonous things regularly. If I could correct my story I would add that the person knew it was poison. Plus, it could be read because the water was made known to be healthy. Why doesn't it jive with TD? I am kinda lost there.

If someone told me "Don't drink that" about a bottle of poison that I knew was toxic, I don't think I'd drink it.

I don't mean to speak for you. Heck, maybe you drink poison regularly ;)

I would say: he can't listen because he wont listen.

But that implies that the only obstacle to him listening is his own desires, and he can change his own desires.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
Dogknox
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10/16/2012 10:18:19 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Anyone who is finally saved will have been predestined by God
All who make it to heaven are said to have been predestined to be saved, not before!

AlwaysMoreThanYou
All in heaven proves, Gods grace went before the person and enabled him to be saved.

This does not mean that God has predestined anyone for hell.

God is, "not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance"
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

God wants all to be saved!!

joneszj To be damned, a person must willfully reject God's "Predestined plan" for his salvation!!!!
YES, those who are "dead in trespasses and sins" do not have the power to "bring themselves back to life."
Spiritual death, NOT physical death!!

joneszj The unregenerate man "dead in sin" remains alive he can still reason able to know and to will; ONLY His soul is spiritually dead.
An unregenerate soul cannot merit anything from God, this does not mean he cannot cooperate with God who calls him to salvation.
EXAMPLE: Saul of Tarsus was dead in sin!!!!!
In Acts 22:16, Paul was asked to cooperate with the grace of God full of sin, Ananias said to him, "rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name."

Peter denied Jesus three times.. Man is truly free and God calls him to freely choose to serve or not to serve the Lord. To LOVE or not to love!! Not loving is a FREE WILL CHOICE, or it would not be a sin!

God would have saved the People of Jericho he was not playing with Abraham. There was a possibility for salvation!!

Dogknox
joneszj
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10/16/2012 10:21:11 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/16/2012 10:10:23 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 10/16/2012 10:07:08 AM, joneszj wrote:
Well generally with 2 Pet 3, the context is that he is talking to Christians being persecuted if I remember correctly. The all there is specifically for them. Though I am not against it being for all people everywhere either. I do believe God desires all to come to repentance. Just as He commands no one to murder and such. I just believe that He specifically set apart and predestined the elect unto adoption through Jesus.

If it is for people everywhere, then it fails to work with Reformed Theology.

If God ordains everything according to His will, and His will is that all will be saved, the logical conclusion is that all will be saved. That is not the case, so one of the premises must be faulty.

That is a misunderstanding of the theology me thinks. God does no logical injustice be desiring and ordaining all to repent and saving only the elect. God can desire the reprobate to repent while still giving them over to themselves. The command to repent is just that, a command and in regards to the reprobabte is acted as a negative influence. The elect however are positively acted upon unto salvation. No logical injustice here. There is a distinction to Gods desires and His decrees.

Titus 2:11 grace appearing to all men.
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,(ESV)
Salvation is offered to all people. God gave His son to the world. But who is it effectual to? Those who believe. I think the 'us' in verse 12 is referring to believers. I think that is fairly straight forward.

So how/why do these people believe? Because they themselves choose to believe, or because God forced them to?

God 'forced' them to. Technically God forces a change in their nature, and as a result they freely choose Him.
joneszj
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10/16/2012 10:24:26 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/16/2012 10:13:03 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 10/16/2012 10:10:13 AM, joneszj wrote:
Why wouldnt it work if he knew it was poison? We drink unhealthy and poisonous things regularly. If I could correct my story I would add that the person knew it was poison. Plus, it could be read because the water was made known to be healthy. Why doesn't it jive with TD? I am kinda lost there.

If someone told me "Don't drink that" about a bottle of poison that I knew was toxic, I don't think I'd drink it.

God tells you not to sin, but you still sin... That is what the poison represents.

I don't mean to speak for you. Heck, maybe you drink poison regularly ;)

All you drink is water? No cokes or anything really unhealthy? I have pretty much given up on most drinks but water now a days. But the poison was an illustration of sin.

I would say: he can't listen because he wont listen.

But that implies that the only obstacle to him listening is his own desires, and he can change his own desires.

Indeed, his only obstacle is himself. He could change his desires, but he never will. He is 'dead' to them.
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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10/16/2012 10:25:55 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/16/2012 10:21:11 AM, joneszj wrote:
That is a misunderstanding of the theology me thinks. God does no logical injustice be desiring and ordaining all to repent and saving only the elect. God can desire the reprobate to repent while still giving them over to themselves. The command to repent is just that, a command and in regards to the reprobabte is acted as a negative influence. The elect however are positively acted upon unto salvation. No logical injustice here. There is a distinction to Gods desires and His decrees.

I'm not saying it's logically unjust, but if God willed all people to be saved and ordained everything according to his will, then he would not be ordaining anyone to not be saved, and since people are not saved he would be ordaining that even though he doesn't want to.

So he must save everyone.

God 'forced' them to. Technically God forces a change in their nature, and as a result they freely choose Him.

How is salvation offered to all people if a person can only be saved if God forces him to be saved if God decides he's not going to force everyone to be saved? (Boy is that a run-on).

Let me try to make it make sense:

1. Salvation is for all people
2. You cannot believe unless God effects a change in your nature
3. God will not effect this change in everyone
4. Not all will believe
5. If you do not believe, you will not be saved

So it is completely impossible for all people to be saved.

Sorry for my post being completely incoherent. I hope you understand :)
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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10/16/2012 10:27:37 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/16/2012 10:24:26 AM, joneszj wrote:
God tells you not to sin, but you still sin... That is what the poison represents.

Okay.

All you drink is water? No cokes or anything really unhealthy? I have pretty much given up on most drinks but water now a days. But the poison was an illustration of sin.

Sadly, no. I miss soda :(

Indeed, his only obstacle is himself. He could change his desires, but he never will. He is 'dead' to them.

If he could change it, then why won't he?
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
joneszj
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10/16/2012 10:32:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/16/2012 10:25:55 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 10/16/2012 10:21:11 AM, joneszj wrote:
That is a misunderstanding of the theology me thinks. God does no logical injustice be desiring and ordaining all to repent and saving only the elect. God can desire the reprobate to repent while still giving them over to themselves. The command to repent is just that, a command and in regards to the reprobabte is acted as a negative influence. The elect however are positively acted upon unto salvation. No logical injustice here. There is a distinction to Gods desires and His decrees.

I'm not saying it's logically unjust, but if God willed all people to be saved and ordained everything according to his will, then he would not be ordaining anyone to not be saved, and since people are not saved he would be ordaining that even though he doesn't want to.

So he must save everyone.

There is the bit. God has not willed that all people be saved. He desires it, but He has not decreed it. Everything does happen according to His will, including the wicked for the day of destruction. That doesn't mean that God can't desire one thing and decree another. They say 'no' God says 'ok'.

God 'forced' them to. Technically God forces a change in their nature, and as a result they freely choose Him.

How is salvation offered to all people if a person can only be saved if God forces him to be saved if God decides he's not going to force everyone to be saved? (Boy is that a run-on).

Salvation is offered to all people. If God did not intervene no one would accept it. God intervenes to save some not all.

Let me try to make it make sense:

1. Salvation is for all people
2. You cannot believe unless God effects a change in your nature
3. God will not effect this change in everyone
4. Not all will believe
5. If you do not believe, you will not be saved

So it is completely impossible for all people to be saved.

Apart from God? Yes.

Sorry for my post being completely incoherent. I hope you understand :)

No worries. I apologize for my rather short and to the point responses. I am at work and don't have the luxury to go in great detail and debate.