Total Posts:122|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Origin of God

phantom
Posts: 6,774
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/17/2012 9:05:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
This thread is purely for discussion. Not to discredit any beliefs. (Well not yet anyways.)

Do theists have any theories on the origin of God? How he came to be? Okay, you might say he's eternal but then I have to ask why he exists. There has to be an explanation. It's something that's always interested me.

I suppose the ontological argument comes the closest that I've seen.

So what do you think?
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
phantom
Posts: 6,774
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/17/2012 9:25:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/17/2012 9:21:08 PM, stubs wrote:
Some would say he exists necessarily.

I already mentioned the ontological argument. Any others?
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
phantom
Posts: 6,774
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/17/2012 10:46:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/17/2012 10:34:30 PM, wiploc wrote:
I'm told that Jehovah created himself.

Makes sense.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/17/2012 10:48:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Everything has a beginning, in which there is nothing prior to it. Therefore, the universe and everything in it has some kind of beginning. Before this point, there was absolutely nothing. It is illogical for God to exist if there is nothing, which means that he can only exist if there is something. Thereby, God has to have come into existence after or at the same point as the creation of something.

Inb4 God existed forever... that's illogical.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/17/2012 10:52:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/17/2012 10:48:01 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Everything has a beginning, in which there is nothing prior to it. Therefore, the universe and everything in it has some kind of beginning. Before this point, there was absolutely nothing. It is illogical for God to exist if there is nothing, which means that he can only exist if there is something. Thereby, God has to have come into existence after or at the same point as the creation of something.

Inb4 God existed forever... that's illogical.

Unless of course he exists outside of logic......
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-OBERHERR'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/17/2012 10:53:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/17/2012 10:52:58 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 10/17/2012 10:48:01 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Everything has a beginning, in which there is nothing prior to it. Therefore, the universe and everything in it has some kind of beginning. Before this point, there was absolutely nothing. It is illogical for God to exist if there is nothing, which means that he can only exist if there is something. Thereby, God has to have come into existence after or at the same point as the creation of something.

Inb4 God existed forever... that's illogical.

Unless of course he exists outside of logic......

Which is a ridiculous cop-out answer...
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
OberHerr
Posts: 13,062
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/17/2012 10:55:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/17/2012 10:53:54 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 10/17/2012 10:52:58 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 10/17/2012 10:48:01 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Everything has a beginning, in which there is nothing prior to it. Therefore, the universe and everything in it has some kind of beginning. Before this point, there was absolutely nothing. It is illogical for God to exist if there is nothing, which means that he can only exist if there is something. Thereby, God has to have come into existence after or at the same point as the creation of something.

Inb4 God existed forever... that's illogical.

Unless of course he exists outside of logic......

Which is a ridiculous cop-out answer...

So?
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-OBERHERR'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/17/2012 10:57:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/17/2012 10:55:09 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 10/17/2012 10:53:54 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 10/17/2012 10:52:58 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 10/17/2012 10:48:01 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Everything has a beginning, in which there is nothing prior to it. Therefore, the universe and everything in it has some kind of beginning. Before this point, there was absolutely nothing. It is illogical for God to exist if there is nothing, which means that he can only exist if there is something. Thereby, God has to have come into existence after or at the same point as the creation of something.

Inb4 God existed forever... that's illogical.

Unless of course he exists outside of logic......

Which is a ridiculous cop-out answer...

So?

If you claim that something exists outside of logic, then you are pretty much saying that "I have no logical explanation for something that for some people, their entire life depends on it" and instead, I'd rather go for the "Fvck it. Blind faith" approach. It's pathetic and degrading to the credibility of your religion. At least the theologians try to justify God logically.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/17/2012 11:02:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/17/2012 9:25:10 PM, phantom wrote:
At 10/17/2012 9:21:08 PM, stubs wrote:
Some would say he exists necessarily.

I already mentioned the ontological argument. Any others?

Well, this is the best explanation. Necessity is a maximally great property. I've never heard of any other explanations.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/17/2012 11:04:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The problem with the Ontological argument is that the mind is not a dictator of what exists; reality is a dictator of what exists. What you think is irrelevant because reality is dependent on what is in reality, which your mind is not a part of.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/17/2012 11:07:06 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/17/2012 11:04:44 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
The problem with the Ontological argument is that the mind is not a dictator of what exists; reality is a dictator of what exists. What you think is irrelevant because reality is dependent on what is in reality, which your mind is not a part of.

The modal ontological argument has nothing to do with the mind, and has everything to do with the possibility of a maximally great being. Because a necessary entity is greater than a contingent entity, a maximally great being must exist in all possible worlds, if it's possible at all.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
phantom
Posts: 6,774
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/17/2012 11:08:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/17/2012 10:53:54 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 10/17/2012 10:52:58 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 10/17/2012 10:48:01 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Everything has a beginning, in which there is nothing prior to it. Therefore, the universe and everything in it has some kind of beginning. Before this point, there was absolutely nothing. It is illogical for God to exist if there is nothing, which means that he can only exist if there is something. Thereby, God has to have come into existence after or at the same point as the creation of something.

Inb4 God existed forever... that's illogical.

Unless of course he exists outside of logic......

Which is a ridiculous cop-out answer...

Well if God existed, theists don't have much reason NOT to believe that he transcends the laws of logic or the laws of this universe (So our laws of logic). The transcendental argument even usually (or always idk) makes God to be the source of the laws of logic.

Theists could just say he transcends time though. Plenty of atheists believe parts of the mutliverse exist outside of time, so I don't see the problem.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/17/2012 11:09:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/17/2012 11:08:02 PM, phantom wrote:
At 10/17/2012 10:53:54 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 10/17/2012 10:52:58 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 10/17/2012 10:48:01 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Everything has a beginning, in which there is nothing prior to it. Therefore, the universe and everything in it has some kind of beginning. Before this point, there was absolutely nothing. It is illogical for God to exist if there is nothing, which means that he can only exist if there is something. Thereby, God has to have come into existence after or at the same point as the creation of something.

Inb4 God existed forever... that's illogical.

Unless of course he exists outside of logic......

Which is a ridiculous cop-out answer...

Well if God existed, theists don't have much reason NOT to believe that he transcends the laws of logic or the laws of this universe (So our laws of logic). The transcendental argument even usually (or always idk) makes God to be the source of the laws of logic.

Theists could just say he transcends time though. Plenty of atheists believe parts of the mutliverse exist outside of time, so I don't see the problem.

I'm not sure if you're referring to the conceptualist argument, but the conceptualist argument doesn't state that God is the *source* of absolutes, because some of God's properties (i.e. omnipotence) depend on abstract concepts such as power. It rather focuses on absolutes as ideas within God's mind.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
phantom
Posts: 6,774
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/17/2012 11:10:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/17/2012 11:04:44 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
The problem with the Ontological argument is that the mind is not a dictator of what exists; reality is a dictator of what exists. What you think is irrelevant because reality is dependent on what is in reality, which your mind is not a part of.

What?
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
phantom
Posts: 6,774
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/17/2012 11:11:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/17/2012 11:09:28 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:08:02 PM, phantom wrote:
At 10/17/2012 10:53:54 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 10/17/2012 10:52:58 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 10/17/2012 10:48:01 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Everything has a beginning, in which there is nothing prior to it. Therefore, the universe and everything in it has some kind of beginning. Before this point, there was absolutely nothing. It is illogical for God to exist if there is nothing, which means that he can only exist if there is something. Thereby, God has to have come into existence after or at the same point as the creation of something.

Inb4 God existed forever... that's illogical.

Unless of course he exists outside of logic......

Which is a ridiculous cop-out answer...

Well if God existed, theists don't have much reason NOT to believe that he transcends the laws of logic or the laws of this universe (So our laws of logic). The transcendental argument even usually (or always idk) makes God to be the source of the laws of logic.

Theists could just say he transcends time though. Plenty of atheists believe parts of the mutliverse exist outside of time, so I don't see the problem.

I'm not sure if you're referring to the conceptualist argument, but the conceptualist argument doesn't state that God is the *source* of absolutes, because some of God's properties (i.e. omnipotence) depend on abstract concepts such as power. It rather focuses on absolutes as ideas within God's mind.

Huh? I said transcendental.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/17/2012 11:15:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/17/2012 11:11:54 PM, phantom wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:09:28 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:08:02 PM, phantom wrote:
At 10/17/2012 10:53:54 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 10/17/2012 10:52:58 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 10/17/2012 10:48:01 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Everything has a beginning, in which there is nothing prior to it. Therefore, the universe and everything in it has some kind of beginning. Before this point, there was absolutely nothing. It is illogical for God to exist if there is nothing, which means that he can only exist if there is something. Thereby, God has to have come into existence after or at the same point as the creation of something.

Inb4 God existed forever... that's illogical.

Unless of course he exists outside of logic......

Which is a ridiculous cop-out answer...

Well if God existed, theists don't have much reason NOT to believe that he transcends the laws of logic or the laws of this universe (So our laws of logic). The transcendental argument even usually (or always idk) makes God to be the source of the laws of logic.

Theists could just say he transcends time though. Plenty of atheists believe parts of the mutliverse exist outside of time, so I don't see the problem.

I'm not sure if you're referring to the conceptualist argument, but the conceptualist argument doesn't state that God is the *source* of universals, because some of God's properties (i.e. omnipotence) depend on abstract concepts such as power. It rather focuses on universals as ideas within God's mind.

Huh? I said transcendental.

Oh, I've never heard of that one before. I assumed you were referring to the Conceptualist argument, which is another argument for God's existence based in universals, like logic.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/18/2012 1:30:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/17/2012 11:15:18 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:11:54 PM, phantom wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:09:28 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:08:02 PM, phantom wrote:
At 10/17/2012 10:53:54 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 10/17/2012 10:52:58 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 10/17/2012 10:48:01 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Everything has a beginning, in which there is nothing prior to it. Therefore, the universe and everything in it has some kind of beginning. Before this point, there was absolutely nothing. It is illogical for God to exist if there is nothing, which means that he can only exist if there is something. Thereby, God has to have come into existence after or at the same point as the creation of something.

Inb4 God existed forever... that's illogical.

Unless of course he exists outside of logic......

Which is a ridiculous cop-out answer...

Well if God existed, theists don't have much reason NOT to believe that he transcends the laws of logic or the laws of this universe (So our laws of logic). The transcendental argument even usually (or always idk) makes God to be the source of the laws of logic.

Theists could just say he transcends time though. Plenty of atheists believe parts of the mutliverse exist outside of time, so I don't see the problem.

I'm not sure if you're referring to the conceptualist argument, but the conceptualist argument doesn't state that God is the *source* of universals, because some of God's properties (i.e. omnipotence) depend on abstract concepts such as power. It rather focuses on universals as ideas within God's mind.

Huh? I said transcendental.

Oh, I've never heard of that one before. I assumed you were referring to the Conceptualist argument, which is another argument for God's existence based in universals, like logic.

You guys may be talking about the same argument but calling it different names. Matt Slick does a good job with the Transcendental Argument, arguing that logical absolutes are conceptual, by nature.

http://www.youtube.com...#!
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/18/2012 2:02:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/18/2012 1:30:40 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:15:18 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:11:54 PM, phantom wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:09:28 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 10/17/2012 11:08:02 PM, phantom wrote:
At 10/17/2012 10:53:54 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 10/17/2012 10:52:58 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 10/17/2012 10:48:01 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Everything has a beginning, in which there is nothing prior to it. Therefore, the universe and everything in it has some kind of beginning. Before this point, there was absolutely nothing. It is illogical for God to exist if there is nothing, which means that he can only exist if there is something. Thereby, God has to have come into existence after or at the same point as the creation of something.

Inb4 God existed forever... that's illogical.

Unless of course he exists outside of logic......

Which is a ridiculous cop-out answer...

Well if God existed, theists don't have much reason NOT to believe that he transcends the laws of logic or the laws of this universe (So our laws of logic). The transcendental argument even usually (or always idk) makes God to be the source of the laws of logic.

Theists could just say he transcends time though. Plenty of atheists believe parts of the mutliverse exist outside of time, so I don't see the problem.

I'm not sure if you're referring to the conceptualist argument, but the conceptualist argument doesn't state that God is the *source* of universals, because some of God's properties (i.e. omnipotence) depend on abstract concepts such as power. It rather focuses on universals as ideas within God's mind.

Huh? I said transcendental.

Oh, I've never heard of that one before. I assumed you were referring to the Conceptualist argument, which is another argument for God's existence based in universals, like logic.

You guys may be talking about the same argument but calling it different names. Matt Slick does a good job with the Transcendental Argument, arguing that logical absolutes are conceptual, by nature.

http://www.youtube.com...#!

Right, that's what I thought.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/18/2012 2:03:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/18/2012 1:33:12 PM, Ahmed.M wrote:
the moment someone says that God has an origin, it means he isn't God anymore but a finite being.

I agree with what you're saying Ahmed, but I think the OP was referring to an explanation for why God is there. As in, even if he's eternal, why does he exist?
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
phantom
Posts: 6,774
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/18/2012 2:21:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/18/2012 1:33:12 PM, Ahmed.M wrote:
the moment someone says that God has an origin, it means he isn't God anymore but a finite being.

*Yaun* Can't people even read the whole OP?
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/18/2012 3:06:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/17/2012 10:48:01 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Everything has a beginning, in which there is nothing prior to it. Therefore, the universe and everything in it has some kind of beginning. Before this point, there was absolutely nothing. It is illogical for God to exist if there is nothing, which means that he can only exist if there is something. Thereby, God has to have come into existence after or at the same point as the creation of something.

Inb4 God existed forever... that's illogical.

So you're saying that the entire universe came into being from absolutely nothing, yet God being eternal is illogical...lol
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/18/2012 3:36:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/18/2012 3:06:53 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 10/17/2012 10:48:01 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Everything has a beginning, in which there is nothing prior to it. Therefore, the universe and everything in it has some kind of beginning. Before this point, there was absolutely nothing. It is illogical for God to exist if there is nothing, which means that he can only exist if there is something. Thereby, God has to have come into existence after or at the same point as the creation of something.

Inb4 God existed forever... that's illogical.

So you're saying that the entire universe came into being from absolutely nothing, yet God being eternal is illogical...lol

Both are illogical. Being cannot come from non-being, and God being eternal leads to an infinite regress of thoughts in God's mind.
Koopin
Posts: 12,090
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/18/2012 3:55:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/18/2012 3:06:53 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 10/17/2012 10:48:01 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Everything has a beginning, in which there is nothing prior to it. Therefore, the universe and everything in it has some kind of beginning. Before this point, there was absolutely nothing. It is illogical for God to exist if there is nothing, which means that he can only exist if there is something. Thereby, God has to have come into existence after or at the same point as the creation of something.

Inb4 God existed forever... that's illogical.

So you're saying that the entire universe came into being from absolutely nothing, yet God being eternal is illogical...lol

Trufe.
kfc
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/18/2012 4:46:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/18/2012 3:36:16 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/18/2012 3:06:53 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 10/17/2012 10:48:01 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Everything has a beginning, in which there is nothing prior to it. Therefore, the universe and everything in it has some kind of beginning. Before this point, there was absolutely nothing. It is illogical for God to exist if there is nothing, which means that he can only exist if there is something. Thereby, God has to have come into existence after or at the same point as the creation of something.

Inb4 God existed forever... that's illogical.

So you're saying that the entire universe came into being from absolutely nothing, yet God being eternal is illogical...lol

Both are illogical. Being cannot come from non-being, and God being eternal leads to an infinite regress of thoughts in God's mind.

What exactly is meant by the bolded part??

Something eternal is the only option for avoiding infinite regress, unless you're going to again argue that something began but there wasn't a cause for the beginning, which is the same as saying that everything came from nothing while trying to confuse the issue with word usage.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/18/2012 5:02:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/18/2012 4:46:59 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 10/18/2012 3:36:16 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/18/2012 3:06:53 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 10/17/2012 10:48:01 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Everything has a beginning, in which there is nothing prior to it. Therefore, the universe and everything in it has some kind of beginning. Before this point, there was absolutely nothing. It is illogical for God to exist if there is nothing, which means that he can only exist if there is something. Thereby, God has to have come into existence after or at the same point as the creation of something.

Inb4 God existed forever... that's illogical.

So you're saying that the entire universe came into being from absolutely nothing, yet God being eternal is illogical...lol

Both are illogical. Being cannot come from non-being, and God being eternal leads to an infinite regress of thoughts in God's mind.

What exactly is meant by the bolded part??

Something eternal is the only option for avoiding infinite regress

Something eternal could work to avoid an infinite regress, but it could not be a mind. If it's a mind, then we have a problem of an infinite regress of thoughts. In that situation, you would basically be trying to solve one infinite regress problem by adhering to another infinite regress problem (which is self-defeating).

, unless you're going to again argue that something began but there wasn't a cause for the beginning, which is the same as saying that everything came from nothing while trying to confuse the issue with word usage.

Or, something can be finite, but not come into existence at all. How is this possible? It's possible if there is no "before" the first moment of said thing. How do we know if something comes into existence? If there is a time when said thing, didn't exist. For example, one can only say that my TV came into existence, because there was a time when that TV didn't exist. We can only say I came into existence in 1987, because we can pin point times when I didn't exist (1986, for example). With the universe though, there is no time when it didn't exist. This avoids an infinite regress, without having to say something came from nothing.

If we use an eternal mind to solve the infinite regress problem however, like I said, that just creates the problem of an infinite regress of thoughts. It would be futile.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/18/2012 5:19:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/18/2012 5:02:37 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/18/2012 4:46:59 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 10/18/2012 3:36:16 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/18/2012 3:06:53 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 10/17/2012 10:48:01 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Everything has a beginning, in which there is nothing prior to it. Therefore, the universe and everything in it has some kind of beginning. Before this point, there was absolutely nothing. It is illogical for God to exist if there is nothing, which means that he can only exist if there is something. Thereby, God has to have come into existence after or at the same point as the creation of something.

Inb4 God existed forever... that's illogical.

So you're saying that the entire universe came into being from absolutely nothing, yet God being eternal is illogical...lol

Both are illogical. Being cannot come from non-being, and God being eternal leads to an infinite regress of thoughts in God's mind.

What exactly is meant by the bolded part??

Something eternal is the only option for avoiding infinite regress

Something eternal could work to avoid an infinite regress, but it could not be a mind. If it's a mind, then we have a problem of an infinite regress of thoughts. In that situation, you would basically be trying to solve one infinite regress problem by adhering to another infinite regress problem (which is self-defeating).

, unless you're going to again argue that something began but there wasn't a cause for the beginning, which is the same as saying that everything came from nothing while trying to confuse the issue with word usage.

Or, something can be finite, but not come into existence at all. How is this possible? It's possible if there is no "before" the first moment of said thing. How do we know if something comes into existence? If there is a time when said thing, didn't exist. For example, one can only say that my TV came into existence, because there was a time when that TV didn't exist. We can only say I came into existence in 1987, because we can pin point times when I didn't exist (1986, for example). With the universe though, there is no time when it didn't exist. This avoids an infinite regress, without having to say something came from nothing.

If we use an eternal mind to solve the infinite regress problem however, like I said, that just creates the problem of an infinite regress of thoughts. It would be futile.

I don't understand what you mean by an infinite regress of God's thoughts. An eternal mind would, by definition, have an eternal or infinite amount of thoughts.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/18/2012 5:30:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/18/2012 5:19:35 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 10/18/2012 5:02:37 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/18/2012 4:46:59 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 10/18/2012 3:36:16 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 10/18/2012 3:06:53 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 10/17/2012 10:48:01 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
Everything has a beginning, in which there is nothing prior to it. Therefore, the universe and everything in it has some kind of beginning. Before this point, there was absolutely nothing. It is illogical for God to exist if there is nothing, which means that he can only exist if there is something. Thereby, God has to have come into existence after or at the same point as the creation of something.

Inb4 God existed forever... that's illogical.

So you're saying that the entire universe came into being from absolutely nothing, yet God being eternal is illogical...lol

Both are illogical. Being cannot come from non-being, and God being eternal leads to an infinite regress of thoughts in God's mind.

What exactly is meant by the bolded part??

Something eternal is the only option for avoiding infinite regress

Something eternal could work to avoid an infinite regress, but it could not be a mind. If it's a mind, then we have a problem of an infinite regress of thoughts. In that situation, you would basically be trying to solve one infinite regress problem by adhering to another infinite regress problem (which is self-defeating).

, unless you're going to again argue that something began but there wasn't a cause for the beginning, which is the same as saying that everything came from nothing while trying to confuse the issue with word usage.

Or, something can be finite, but not come into existence at all. How is this possible? It's possible if there is no "before" the first moment of said thing. How do we know if something comes into existence? If there is a time when said thing, didn't exist. For example, one can only say that my TV came into existence, because there was a time when that TV didn't exist. We can only say I came into existence in 1987, because we can pin point times when I didn't exist (1986, for example). With the universe though, there is no time when it didn't exist. This avoids an infinite regress, without having to say something came from nothing.

If we use an eternal mind to solve the infinite regress problem however, like I said, that just creates the problem of an infinite regress of thoughts. It would be futile.

I don't understand what you mean by an infinite regress of God's thoughts. An eternal mind would, by definition, have an eternal or infinite amount of thoughts.

An infinite amount of thoughts is logically impossible, there cannot be an actually infinite number of things (check Hubert's Hotel). You could always add one more. Since you could always add one more, then an eternal mind equates to an infinite regress.