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Should our children die for us...??

GenesisCreation
Posts: 496
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10/19/2012 7:32:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
It is my sincere prayer that every man and woman is granted the empathic nature to want to die for their child.

If you can justify why any man or woman should not deeply desire to die for their child, please let me know.

The polar extreem would be to have our children die for us.

Once we acknowledge this concept, we can hash out "what constitutes a child."
Um....You've got a log in your eye.
"I would be suspicious of an argument without any concessions." - John Dickson
Double_Helix46
Posts: 466
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10/19/2012 7:38:44 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I would die for my child. I dont want to die. If my child is involved I would gladly for them. IDK is this is what is meant here. I consider a child to be below 18 but that is today talking. Really a child is someone not capable of making decisions for themselves yet.
GenesisCreation
Posts: 496
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10/19/2012 7:39:34 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/19/2012 7:33:36 AM, Smithereens wrote:
I reckon death is epic, but its a last resort.

Of course it is a last resort. Nobody should want to die, but all parents should desire for their children to live, infinitely more than themselves.
Um....You've got a log in your eye.
"I would be suspicious of an argument without any concessions." - John Dickson
GenesisCreation
Posts: 496
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10/19/2012 7:41:11 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/19/2012 7:38:44 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
I would die for my child. I dont want to die. If my child is involved I would gladly for them. IDK is this is what is meant here. I consider a child to be below 18 but that is today talking. Really a child is someone not capable of making decisions for themselves yet.

This is about abortion.

Parents should die for their children.
What we see today is children dying for their parents.
Um....You've got a log in your eye.
"I would be suspicious of an argument without any concessions." - John Dickson
Double_Helix46
Posts: 466
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10/19/2012 7:44:47 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/19/2012 7:41:11 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
At 10/19/2012 7:38:44 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
I would die for my child. I dont want to die. If my child is involved I would gladly for them. IDK is this is what is meant here. I consider a child to be below 18 but that is today talking. Really a child is someone not capable of making decisions for themselves yet.

This is about abortion.

Parents should die for their children.
What we see today is children dying for their parents.:

Ok, I see. I do not agree with abortion in any shape, form or fashion.
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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10/19/2012 12:00:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/19/2012 7:32:00 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
It is my sincere prayer that every man and woman is granted the empathic nature to want to die for their child.

If you can justify why any man or woman should not deeply desire to die for their child, please let me know.

The polar extreem would be to have our children die for us.

Once we acknowledge this concept, we can hash out "what constitutes a child."

Then, why did God take great joy, in the killing of his own son?
GenesisCreation
Posts: 496
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10/19/2012 12:29:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/19/2012 12:00:49 PM, s-anthony wrote:
At 10/19/2012 7:32:00 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
It is my sincere prayer that every man and woman is granted the empathic nature to want to die for their child.

If you can justify why any man or woman should not deeply desire to die for their child, please let me know.

The polar extreme would be to have our children die for us.

Once we acknowledge this concept, we can hash out "what constitutes a child."

Then, why did God take great joy, in the killing of his own son?

1.> You didn't answer the question. You shifted the burden of proof.
2.> Let's assume I entertain your premise....would you elaborate your objection?
a.> How is the life, death and resurrection of a deity comparable to abortion?
b.> Supply scripture which shows that God killed his own son.
c.> Show scripture that God and Christ are separate, resulting in a parent type
killing a child type.
d.> Since Christ gave himself freely for the payment of sin, does the human
embryo give him/herself freely for anything?
e.> Did the death of Christ show that he was unwanted and served as a
burden to his parent?
f.> Since abortion is a biological termination of pregnancy, can you consider the
adult sacrifice of Christ an abortion, especially since Christ died voluntarily?

Let's start there....
Um....You've got a log in your eye.
"I would be suspicious of an argument without any concessions." - John Dickson
jat93
Posts: 1,440
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10/19/2012 12:33:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/19/2012 7:41:11 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
At 10/19/2012 7:38:44 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
I would die for my child. I dont want to die. If my child is involved I would gladly for them. IDK is this is what is meant here. I consider a child to be below 18 but that is today talking. Really a child is someone not capable of making decisions for themselves yet.

This is about abortion.

Parents should die for their children.
What we see today is children dying for their parents.

Children are independent of their mothers bodies, can think and feel, have consciousness, have interests in life and living.

(NOT talking about late-term abortion): Fetuses are dependent on their mothers bodies, cannot think or feel, lack consciousness as we understand the term, and cannot have interests in living life.

You were talking about fetuses dying, not children dying. Stupid to make no distinction.
jat93
Posts: 1,440
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10/19/2012 12:45:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/19/2012 12:33:00 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 10/19/2012 7:41:11 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
At 10/19/2012 7:38:44 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
I would die for my child. I dont want to die. If my child is involved I would gladly for them. IDK is this is what is meant here. I consider a child to be below 18 but that is today talking. Really a child is someone not capable of making decisions for themselves yet.

This is about abortion.

Parents should die for their children.
What we see today is children dying for their parents.

Children are independent of their mothers bodies, can think and feel, have consciousness, have interests in life and living.

(NOT talking about late-term abortion): Fetuses are dependent on their mothers bodies, cannot think or feel, lack consciousness as we understand the term, and cannot have interests in living life.

You were talking about fetuses dying, not children dying. Stupid to make no distinction.

Plus, I firmly believe that in many cases, women who choose an abortion do so precisely out of the maternal instincts of love and nurturing their children, because if they want to get an abortion they clearly feel like they cannot adequately care for the child and that the child would be very disadvantaged, so these SELFLESS reasons are why most women who get an abortion decide to do so in the first place. You think women who get an abortion do it just for fun, or they had nothing better to do? No, its because they know if they didn't get an abortion, their future kid would probably have a really screwy life due to financial difficulties, immaturity/irresponsibility of the mother, etc.

But all you can say is "children are dying for their parents! Killing children is wrong!" Well, hate to break it to you, but killing isn't objectively wrong. Would you kill a fly or a mosquito? What about an animal like a cow or a pig if you were really hungry and had a method of killing and eating it? You'd probably have no problem with either of those things, despite the fact that flies, mosquitoes, and especially cows and pigs have way more of a "right to life" than a fetus does - given that a fetus is literally dependent on the body of its mother, and given that it cannot think, pain.

Animals like cows and pigs can think, feel pain, have consciousness, have interests, etc, but you don't make a fuss about killing them.... But a human fetus that can't think or feel or do anything that would make ending its life immoral, you freak out about. Clearly, since killing is not objectively wrong in your opinion (unless you find it objectively wrong to kill insects that annoy you and other animals for food) the morality of killing something depends on the circumstance. Why should the same not be true with respect to human fetuses? ("Because it's a potential human", by the way, is a non-argument.)
GenesisCreation
Posts: 496
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10/19/2012 12:52:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/19/2012 12:33:00 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 10/19/2012 7:41:11 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
At 10/19/2012 7:38:44 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
I would die for my child. I dont want to die. If my child is involved I would gladly for them. IDK is this is what is meant here. I consider a child to be below 18 but that is today talking. Really a child is someone not capable of making decisions for themselves yet.

This is about abortion.

Parents should die for their children.
What we see today is children dying for their parents.

Children are independent of their mothers bodies, can think and feel, have consciousness, have interests in life and living.

(NOT talking about late-term abortion): Fetuses are dependent on their mothers bodies, cannot think or feel, lack consciousness as we understand the term, and cannot have interests in living life.

Interesting. You are saying that the value of a human life is hinged upon being able to think, feel or show interest in life?

You were talking about fetuses dying, not children dying. Stupid to make no distinction.

Why is it stupid? Are you saying it's smart to consider the early child a non-human?
Um....You've got a log in your eye.
"I would be suspicious of an argument without any concessions." - John Dickson
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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10/19/2012 1:02:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/19/2012 12:45:10 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 10/19/2012 12:33:00 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 10/19/2012 7:41:11 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
At 10/19/2012 7:38:44 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
I would die for my child. I dont want to die. If my child is involved I would gladly for them. IDK is this is what is meant here. I consider a child to be below 18 but that is today talking. Really a child is someone not capable of making decisions for themselves yet.

This is about abortion.

Parents should die for their children.
What we see today is children dying for their parents.

Children are independent of their mothers bodies, can think and feel, have consciousness, have interests in life and living.

(NOT talking about late-term abortion): Fetuses are dependent on their mothers bodies, cannot think or feel, lack consciousness as we understand the term, and cannot have interests in living life.

You were talking about fetuses dying, not children dying. Stupid to make no distinction.

Plus, I firmly believe that in many cases, women who choose an abortion do so precisely out of the maternal instincts of love and nurturing their children, because if they want to get an abortion they clearly feel like they cannot adequately care for the child and that the child would be very disadvantaged, so these SELFLESS reasons are why most women who get an abortion decide to do so in the first place. You think women who get an abortion do it just for fun, or they had nothing better to do? No, its because they know if they didn't get an abortion, their future kid would probably have a really screwy life due to financial difficulties, immaturity/irresponsibility of the mother, etc.

Ever heard of Adoption? Everyone knows what can happen if you have unprotected sex, and because you were to horny to wait, or you just don't ilike how condoms feel, automatically deprives one of this particular right.

But all you can say is "children are dying for their parents! Killing children is wrong!" Well, hate to break it to you, but killing isn't objectively wrong. Would you kill a fly or a mosquito? What about an animal like a cow or a pig if you were really hungry and had a method of killing and eating it? You'd probably have no problem with either of those things, despite the fact that flies, mosquitoes, and especially cows and pigs have way more of a "right to life" than a fetus does - given that a fetus is literally dependent on the body of its mother, and given that it cannot think, pain.

Killing isn't objectively wrong, but Murder is. The fetus is dependant on the mother because the mother was irresponsible. You don't recieve a 'get out of jail free' card because you're a moron. I almost feel like there should be some sort of penalty for people who have children and cannot take care of them due to irresponsibility.

Animals like cows and pigs can think, feel pain, have consciousness, have interests, etc, but you don't make a fuss about killing them.... But a human fetus that can't think or feel or do anything that would make ending its life immoral, you freak out about. Clearly, since killing is not objectively wrong in your opinion (unless you find it objectively wrong to kill insects that annoy you and other animals for food) the morality of killing something depends on the circumstance. Why should the same not be true with respect to human fetuses? ("Because it's a potential human", by the way, is a non-argument.)

It's not a potential human, its a human. Because it can't feel or think is COMPLETELY irrelevant.

Animals are food, humans are not.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
GenesisCreation
Posts: 496
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10/19/2012 1:20:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/19/2012 12:45:10 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 10/19/2012 12:33:00 PM, jat93 wrote:
At 10/19/2012 7:41:11 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
At 10/19/2012 7:38:44 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
I would die for my child. I dont want to die. If my child is involved I would gladly for them. IDK is this is what is meant here. I consider a child to be below 18 but that is today talking. Really a child is someone not capable of making decisions for themselves yet.

This is about abortion.

Parents should die for their children.
What we see today is children dying for their parents.

Children are independent of their mothers bodies, can think and feel, have consciousness, have interests in life and living.

(NOT talking about late-term abortion): Fetuses are dependent on their mothers bodies, cannot think or feel, lack consciousness as we understand the term, and cannot have interests in living life.

You were talking about fetuses dying, not children dying. Stupid to make no distinction.

Plus, I firmly believe that in many cases, women who choose an abortion do so precisely out of the maternal instincts of love and nurturing their children, because if they want to get an abortion they clearly feel like they cannot adequately care for the child and that the child would be very disadvantaged, so these SELFLESS reasons are why most women who get an abortion decide to do so in the first place.

I disagree. I have been inside an abortion clinic. I saw an overwhelming amount of indifference and disgust in the characters of the women. As if the child was a "gross invader" that needed to be cut out like cancer. The guilt and shame is ex post facto.
A large population of women change their stance on abortion after they've already had one.

I would love to see some statistics to support the idea that abortions directly translate into mercy killings on behalf of the mother.

You think women who get an abortion do it just for fun, or they had nothing better to do? No, its because they know if they didn't get an abortion, their future kid would probably have a really screwy life due to financial difficulties, immaturity/irresponsibility of the mother, etc.

Again, show me statistics to support that this is the mindset of the mother before she get's the abortions.

But all you can say is "children are dying for their parents! Killing children is wrong!" Well, hate to break it to you, but killing isn't objectively wrong.
You're right. Killing is not objectively wrong. However, that's a broad brush. We're not talking about raising beef cattle. We're talking about a living, biological medium that is in the first stages of it's humanity. To debate "what constitutes a human" without a total consensus should always result in this:" Error on the side of life."

Would you kill a fly or a mosquito? What about an animal like a cow or a pig if you were really hungry and had a method of killing and eating it? You'd probably have no problem with either of those things, despite the fact that flies, mosquitoes, and especially cows and pigs have way more of a "right to life" than a fetus does - given that a fetus is literally dependent on the body of its mother, and given that it cannot think, pain.

Logical fallacy. A mosquito will also die if you neglect it the resources it requires. As will any living creature. The difference between the two is (as you said) dependancy.
Dependancy =/= moral justification for abortion.
Dependancy = responsibility.
What you've done, is assign a margin of error to when the mother begins her responsibility.


Animals like cows and pigs can think, feel pain, have consciousness, have interests, etc, but you don't make a fuss about killing them.... But a human fetus that can't think or feel or do anything that would make ending its life immoral, you freak out about.

You're right. Objectively, in a cold, sterile, non-emotional sense....it's all just protein.
So what is your objection to late term abortion? At some point in the development you decide to appeal to your emotions and morals. Is it at 5 months? 4?
Does your emotional appeal begin when you recognize human features? Like little fingers or a beating heart?
When does it become morally unconscionable for you to abort a pregnancy?

Cearly, since killing is not objectively wrong in your opinion (unless you find it objectively wrong to kill insects that annoy you and other animals for food) the morality of killing something depends on the circumstance. Why should the same not be true with respect to human fetuses? ("Because it's a potential human", by the way, is a non-argument.)
I do not attribute potential humanity to the fetus. I attribute total humanity to the fetus from conception. Wether the child develops inside the womb or outside the womb, I dare not have the hubris to condemn it either way.
Um....You've got a log in your eye.
"I would be suspicious of an argument without any concessions." - John Dickson
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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10/19/2012 5:01:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/19/2012 7:32:00 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
It is my sincere prayer that every man and woman is granted the empathic nature to want to die for their child.

If you can justify why any man or woman should not deeply desire to die for their child, please let me know.

The polar extreem would be to have our children die for us.

Once we acknowledge this concept, we can hash out "what constitutes a child."

I don't desire to die for my children because I don't really want to die. However if the threat to my children was great enough I would die for them if this would help them.
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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10/19/2012 5:02:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/19/2012 7:41:11 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
At 10/19/2012 7:38:44 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
I would die for my child. I dont want to die. If my child is involved I would gladly for them. IDK is this is what is meant here. I consider a child to be below 18 but that is today talking. Really a child is someone not capable of making decisions for themselves yet.

This is about abortion.

Parents should die for their children.
What we see today is children dying for their parents.

What about right after conception? Is abortion ethical?
GenesisCreation
Posts: 496
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10/19/2012 5:16:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/19/2012 5:02:54 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 10/19/2012 7:41:11 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
At 10/19/2012 7:38:44 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
I would die for my child. I dont want to die. If my child is involved I would gladly for them. IDK is this is what is meant here. I consider a child to be below 18 but that is today talking. Really a child is someone not capable of making decisions for themselves yet.

This is about abortion.

Parents should die for their children.
What we see today is children dying for their parents.

What about right after conception? Is abortion ethical?

No.
Um....You've got a log in your eye.
"I would be suspicious of an argument without any concessions." - John Dickson
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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10/19/2012 5:22:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/19/2012 5:16:16 PM, GenesisCreation wrote:
At 10/19/2012 5:02:54 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 10/19/2012 7:41:11 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
At 10/19/2012 7:38:44 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
I would die for my child. I dont want to die. If my child is involved I would gladly for them. IDK is this is what is meant here. I consider a child to be below 18 but that is today talking. Really a child is someone not capable of making decisions for themselves yet.

This is about abortion.

Parents should die for their children.
What we see today is children dying for their parents.

What about right after conception? Is abortion ethical?

No.

So basically you are saying that a few cells right after conception is comparable to a human child? Is that your opinion?
GenesisCreation
Posts: 496
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10/19/2012 6:02:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/19/2012 5:22:55 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 10/19/2012 5:16:16 PM, GenesisCreation wrote:
At 10/19/2012 5:02:54 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 10/19/2012 7:41:11 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
At 10/19/2012 7:38:44 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
I would die for my child. I dont want to die. If my child is involved I would gladly for them. IDK is this is what is meant here. I consider a child to be below 18 but that is today talking. Really a child is someone not capable of making decisions for themselves yet.

This is about abortion.

Parents should die for their children.
What we see today is children dying for their parents.

What about right after conception? Is abortion ethical?

No.

So basically you are saying that a few cells right after conception is comparable to a human child? Is that your opinion?

Tthe quantity of cells are not an indicator of humanity. It's the content of the cells that indicate humanity.
Um....You've got a log in your eye.
"I would be suspicious of an argument without any concessions." - John Dickson
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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10/19/2012 6:48:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/19/2012 5:01:50 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 10/19/2012 7:32:00 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
It is my sincere prayer that every man and woman is granted the empathic nature to want to die for their child.

If you can justify why any man or woman should not deeply desire to die for their child, please let me know.

The polar extreem would be to have our children die for us.

Once we acknowledge this concept, we can hash out "what constitutes a child."

I don't desire to die for my children because I don't really want to die. However if the threat to my children was great enough I would die for them if this would help them.

I was about to say this.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

https://i.imgflip.com...
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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10/19/2012 6:52:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/19/2012 6:48:23 PM, Maikuru wrote:
At 10/19/2012 5:01:50 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 10/19/2012 7:32:00 AM, GenesisCreation wrote:
It is my sincere prayer that every man and woman is granted the empathic nature to want to die for their child.

If you can justify why any man or woman should not deeply desire to die for their child, please let me know.

The polar extreem would be to have our children die for us.

Once we acknowledge this concept, we can hash out "what constitutes a child."

I don't desire to die for my children because I don't really want to die. However if the threat to my children was great enough I would die for them if this would help them.

I was about to say this.

I'm pretty sure this is what he meant.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.