Total Posts:47|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Spiritual Genocide

pozessed
Posts: 1,034
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/25/2012 5:04:37 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Spiritual Genocide can be defined as banishing particular groups of souls from getting into heaven.

If your belief is that God will condemn good people to torment based on the name of their faith, you believe that God condones a form of genocide.

We as people know genocide is wrong. Why do some of us allow ourselves to think God would really condemn anyone to torment, just because they got his name wrong.

Instead, all we have to do is realize Gods love is unconditional. No matter how misguided our thoughts and actions may be, he will have always find a reason to love everything and everyone.
If someone is blind to God, it's because God wants them to be blind.
They have contributions to teach or learn that would be better expressed to that individual without them realizing God made it possible.

Free will is obviously a big condition in Gods plan.
If it wasn't we would not exist the way we do.
Therefore condemning someone based on the choice of their free will is counter productive of Gods plan.

So why would God commit souls to hell, only because they worshiped him in a way that others thought unorthodox?
Double_Helix46
Posts: 466
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/25/2012 5:38:51 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/25/2012 5:04:37 AM, pozessed wrote:
If your belief is that God will condemn good people to torment based on the name of their faith, you believe that God condones a form of genocide.:
God will never condemn people to torment, they themselves do that either knowingly or unknowingly. God gave the basis's for His worship and only He is to be worshipped.

We as people know genocide is wrong. Why do some of us allow ourselves to think God would really condemn anyone to torment, just because they got his name wrong.:
How can you get His name wrong? People speak other languages but they get God's name right in their language. God has given His name to us.
If someone is blind to God, it's because God wants them to be blind.:
No, God has not wanted anyone to be blind and I think He has shown that fact.
They have contributions to teach or learn that would be better expressed to that individual without them realizing God made it possible.:
This sounds absurd. You can not receive salvation and the heavenly gift without recognizing God and submitting to him.
Therefore condemning someone based on the choice of their free will is counter productive of Gods plan.:
This is a one big error. This is the big plan of God. God gave the choice to choose Him, not by force, not if you choose not too. Plenty choose not too.

So why would God commit souls to hell, only because they worshiped him in a way that others thought unorthodox?:
God wouldn't in this sense. God gave us the way of worship to Him(not men's opinions) and if you refuse that then you commit yourself to condemnation.
pozessed
Posts: 1,034
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/25/2012 6:14:28 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/25/2012 5:38:51 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
God will never condemn people to torment, they themselves do that either knowingly or unknowingly. God gave the basis's for His worship and only He is to be worshipped.

What is this torment that they would be condemning themselves to? Who created this place of torment? How would people get there if God didn't put them there or prevent them from getting there?

We as people know genocide is wrong. Why do some of us allow ourselves to think God would really condemn anyone to torment, just because they got his name wrong.:
How can you get His name wrong? People speak other languages but they get God's name right in their language. God has given His name to us.
If I don't believe that Christ is the name of my savior, according to christian faith I am condemned.
Christ is also described as God in many references I have seen in the bible.

No, God has not wanted anyone to be blind and I think He has shown that fact.
So why do good people who believe in science deny God?
God is incapable of presenting himself and showing the scientist proof?
Or, God found it best to let the scientist think for himself to best teach the scientist or someone effected by the scientist, what path God wanted them to take.
This sounds absurd. You can not receive salvation and the heavenly gift without recognizing God and submitting to him.
That's your opinion, and if it were true it shows conditional love, which is not possible with God if you believe in a God of love.
This is a one big error. This is the big plan of God. God gave the choice to choose Him, not by force, not if you choose not too. Plenty choose not too.

God is knowledge, what knowledge do men have without mistakes?
Does God not want us to have knowledge of our universe and his work?
If so then our free will has to be part of his plan, and these mistakes we make has a rectifying condition that he has made in preparation.
A better question is; where do these thoughts that God needs to be noticed generated, and why do feel so compelled to need others to accept their faith if they have a true connection to God.

God wouldn't in this sense. God gave us the way of worship to Him(not men's opinions) and if you refuse that then you commit yourself to condemnation.
So again this is your personal promotion of spiritual genocide because someones description of God or worship is something you don't agree with.
Even if you don't blatantly say it, your saying God will allow people to be damned because of their beliefs.
Double_Helix46
Posts: 466
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/25/2012 7:37:46 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/25/2012 6:14:28 AM, pozessed wrote:
What is this torment that they would be condemning themselves to?:
Absence of God, the light, the truth.
Who created this place of torment?:
IDK who created it. You can say God did but really you can also say those who refuse God created it. Those who refuse God, seek to find absence of God with is in the darkness and this is hell. God most likely gave them this place without His presence because that is what they desired to have.
How would people get there if God didn't put them there or prevent them from getting there?:
How did God not try to prevent it? His Word and revelation of the place clearly shows His desire to prevent it. People get there because they refuse to heed God's Word and ultimately God himself.
If I don't believe that Christ is the name of my savior, according to christian faith I am condemned.:
Christ is merely a title. Christ is God in the flesh. Yes, if you do not believe God became flesh and died for you then you will recieve damnation.
Christ is also described as God in many references I have seen in the bible.:
Christ is God.

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
So why do good people who believe in science deny God?:
You precieve good on your terms and not God's.
God is incapable of presenting himself and showing the scientist proof?:
God is very capable. Why would God do that? God can easily come to earth and reveal himself and everyone would know who He is and know He is God. Though this does not require faith in Him nor a chance of free-will for you to choose Him.
Or, God found it best to let the scientist think for himself to best teach the scientist or someone effected by the scientist, what path God wanted them to take.:
Science is not the enemy of God. The person rejecting God's work by science is the enemy of God.
That's your opinion, and if it were true it shows conditional love, which is not possible with God if you believe in a God of love.:
That is not my opinion, it is God's. The Bible say's this over and over.
God is knowledge, what knowledge do men have without mistakes?:
Everything men do without putting God first is a mistake.
Does God not want us to have knowledge of our universe and his work?:
Of course He does but He does not want you to prevert it to go away from His will and Word.
If so then our free will has to be part of his plan, and these mistakes we make has a rectifying condition that he has made in preparation.:
Free-will is part of the plan. You can choose to refuse His Word and Him.
A better question is; where do these thoughts that God needs to be noticed generated, and why do feel so compelled to need others to accept their faith if they have a true connection to God.:
I have no need for you to accept God. My need is for me too. I do have a job, requirement, to lead all I can to Him by His Word.
So again this is your personal promotion of spiritual genocide because someones description of God or worship is something you don't agree with.:
You say my opinion or agrrement like it was my words. The Bible is not my Words, they are God's. Yoy reject them then you reject God. You must deal with that.
Even if you don't blatantly say it, your saying God will allow people to be damned because of their beliefs.:
Yes, He will, I say it willingly because it is true. Your saying blanantly that I should believe whatever I want too and still have salvation. Saying I should believe in satan over God and I should recieve salvation or I should believe in any other chosen God and should recieve salvation. No, will not work that way. Your saying I should be able to do whatever I want to do and never reconize the Law God has given but still reiece salvation. Sounds self-centered and something is Owed to You to me. You owe God.
pozessed
Posts: 1,034
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/25/2012 9:43:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
God is in everything and everyone. He can prove himself to each and every individual in such a personal way. There would be no denying of God on a personal level for everyone.
That isn't the case though. If it were there would be mutual agreement that any personal connection to God is the correct connection.
Man passing any type of judgment, about who may or may not go to hell, is proof of a misconception of God.(IMO)

God is love and knowledge that we can not understand.
Why would a parent let their children create a room of torture and then idly watch them use this room of torture to mutilate themselves?
If a parent that tries to show unconditional love wouldn't do it, God wouldn't do it to us either is my assumption.

However if it were my children building a room of torture, and my children had eternal life, I think I would allow them to learn from their own mistakes.
On the other hand if life isn't eternal, I would intervene before anyone got hurt yet I would still let them build and learn from their mistakes.
I would intervene by distracting them from the more dangerous areas of their contraptions by showing them something less dangerous.

I believe sin is man made and so is hell.
Something that we do know about man made things is that none of them will last eternity.
I believe God is merely an observer of how we live, he chooses not to intervene with our choices because he is our choices, we just decide which path he allowed for us to choose and he observes.
I believe God will give everyone an infinite amount of chances and choices to find him and understand him. Why not, he has eternity doesn't he?

Here's a better question, how does hell show any form of eternal patience?
Double_Helix46
Posts: 466
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/25/2012 11:37:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/25/2012 9:43:54 AM, pozessed wrote:
God is in everything and everyone. He can prove himself to each and every individual in such a personal way. There would be no denying of God on a personal level for everyone.:
This is the case. God does reveal himself personnally. When you read scriptures you find salvation in them but you also see things meant for you and different for others.
That isn't the case though. If it were there would be mutual agreement that any personal connection to God is the correct connection.:
If it differs from the Word God gave then it is not God but a false one. What sense is there for God to give His Word then act differently then what it says? It doesn't.
Man passing any type of judgment, about who may or may not go to hell, is proof of a misconception of God.:
It is not a misconception of God but misconception of thir place. Men can not say who will and who will not go to hell. Though the Word of God clearly states hell is real and will be torment for all who reject Him.

God is love and knowledge that we can not understand.:
Yes we can understand. That is naive to say that. God gives us the means to understand Him. God is love, ultimate love. What is true love? Free-will, choice to decide for yourself.
Why would a parent let their children create a room of torture and then idly watch them use this room of torture to mutilate themselves?:
Because apparently free-will is the ultimate love. You want to mutilate yourself (knowingly or unknowingly) that is your free choice. God gave the way to Him and you can not find Him without it. Clearly stated in His Word that He gave.
If a parent that tries to show unconditional love wouldn't do it, God wouldn't do it to us either is my assumption.:
Unconditional love, true love, is allowing you to choose for yourself. You can not blame God if you refuse Him and the Word He gave. You can not change the Word to suit you. Yo can not deny the Word and think you will still find salvation.

However if it were my children building a room of torture, and my children had eternal life, I think I would allow them to learn from their own mistakes.:
Your not God however and your opinion doesn't matter, only His does. You have the chance to learn but are you? Remember those that hve God and believe His Word is that chance. They are the ones that try to teach you. That is our job. Once they have shown you that and you accept it, then it is you and God from then on.
On the other hand if life isn't eternal, I would intervene before anyone got hurt yet I would still let them build and learn from their mistakes. :
Again, placing one at Godhood. Thinking one can have Godlike understanding and just decisions is false.
I would intervene by distracting them from the more dangerous areas of their contraptions by showing them something less dangerous.:
Has He not? It is foolish to claim He has not shown us the way.

I believe sin is man made and so is hell.:
Most likely it is. We make it. We choose it. We will lie in the bed we make for ourselves. Blaming God or judging Him for it is self-centeredness. Claiming one deserves things they do not deserve is self-centered. Our objective is to be God centered.
Something that we do know about man made things is that none of them will last eternity.:
Man is also spiritual which is eternal. So when one denies God, they will recieve that eternal punishment by their own choice.
I believe God is merely an observer of how we live, he chooses not to intervene with our choices because he is our choices, we just decide which path he allowed for us to choose and he observes.:
That is correct to a extent. His will, will be done, He uses us both saved and unsaved to fulfill it.
I believe God will give everyone an infinite amount of chances and choices to find him and understand him.:
You have your whole life to find Him. When you decide not too fully then your time is numbered. When your life here is over your choice has been made. There is no infinate amount of time unless you mean this life.
Why not, he has eternity doesn't he?:
He is eternity. Eternity only consist with thought of some kind of time. God made the concept of eternity. He has that luxery, you do not unless you accept His Grace.

Here's a better question, how does hell show any form of eternal patience?:
Plain and clear God knows your heart. He knows if you will ever choose him or not. If you will, then you will find Him, He will never allow you to die without it. Even if you will never, He burdens you to change your mind, over and over. He still knows you will not change and when that last chance to come to Him is given then your lost forever. The last chance is ultimately on your earthly death.
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/25/2012 11:46:08 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/25/2012 5:04:37 AM, pozessed wrote:
Spiritual Genocide can be defined as banishing particular groups of souls from getting into heaven.

In that case, I think God will commit spiritual genocide. After all, he will banish the whole group of non-believers from heaven.

If your belief is that God will condemn good people to torment based on the name of their faith, you believe that God condones a form of genocide.

I don't believe there are any good people in the sense of there being people who never sin. As Jesus said, "Nobody is good but God alone" (Mark 10:18). Everybody sins, which means everybody is guilty of wrongdoing, which means God has the right to punish everybody. This point, alone, does not mean God condones a form of genocide. But your definition of "spiritual genocide" above, combined with the doctrine that God will banish unbelieving sinners from heaven does mean that God condones a form of genocide. (So does the flood story, by the way.)

We as people know genocide is wrong. Why do some of us allow ourselves to think God would really condemn anyone to torment, just because they got his name wrong.

First, God has perogatives that we don't have. For example, God has the right to seek revenge, but we do not (Romans 12:19-20). In the same way, God has the right to commit genocide in some situations, but that doesn't mean we do. So genocide is wrong for us, but that doesn't mean it's wrong for God.

Second, God doesn't condemn people just because they got his name wrong. Rather, he condemns people for all of their sins. And since everybody sins, we all stand condemned already.

Third, the reason some people allow themselves to think God would really condemn people is because (1) the Bible says so and (2) guilty people deserve to be punished.

Instead, all we have to do is realize Gods love is unconditional. No matter how misguided our thoughts and actions may be, he will have always find a reason to love everything and everyone.

God does not love everybody in the same way. He certainly didn't love Jacob and Esau in the same way.

Free will is obviously a big condition in Gods plan.

What about his plan to love everybody? You said earlier that God's love is unconditional. If God's love is unconditional, and it is part of God's plan, then God's plan would be unconditional, and if God's plan is unconditional, then free will can't be a big condition of God's plan.

If it wasn't we would not exist the way we do.

Unless we don't have free will, in which case we'd exist exactly the way we do.

Therefore condemning someone based on the choice of their free will is counter productive of Gods plan.

Au contrair. The judgement at the eschaton is part of God's plan (Acts 17:31), and God judges people because of their choices (2 Corinthians 5:10).

So why would God commit souls to hell, only because they worshiped him in a way that others thought unorthodox?

God doesn't judge people on the basis of what other people think of how they worship. God judges people because of the wrong they do.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/25/2012 3:09:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/25/2012 5:04:37 AM, pozessed wrote:
Spiritual Genocide can be defined as banishing particular groups of souls from getting into heaven.

If your belief is that God will condemn good people to torment based on the name of their faith, you believe that God condones a form of genocide.

No, it would be more like disinfecting, or fumigating. The problem with your assertion, is that you assume people are good. I'm not sure if you are familiar with the bible, but it says man is evil; to the very core-- the heart.

No one is righteous, no not even one" - Romans 3

We as people know genocide is wrong. Why do some of us allow ourselves to think God would really condemn anyone to torment, just because they got his name wrong.

Key words: 'We as people'. We don't even deserve to have our extermination called genocide; in regards to Gods righteous judgement. Gods Just punishment of man, is more similar to that of bacteria being eradicated; would you call wiping your counters down with comet 'bacterial genocide'?

God is not a human being, we and him are not equal. He does not look to us for approval or disapproval, he doesn't need us. He rules HIS creation, and works everything out for his Good.

Instead, all we have to do is realize Gods love is unconditional. No matter how misguided our thoughts and actions may be, he will have always find a reason to love everything and everyone.

You are close. God's love is unconditional, no matter how utterly sinful, and anti-God we are; however, his love isn't intended for everyone. Only some recieve his favor, and it has nothing to with there current or future standing in this life, nor does it haven anything to do with a person will or desire (Romans 9:16 - http://www.biblegateway.com...)

If someone is blind to God, it's because God wants them to be blind.
They have contributions to teach or learn that would be better expressed to that individual without them realizing God made it possible.

Once again, a painfully truthful statement. God reveals himself to whom he pleases, and hide's himself from whom he pleases. However, only the contributions made by his chosen are even recognized; he predetermined them for the believer.

Free will is obviously a big condition in Gods plan.
If it wasn't we would not exist the way we do.
Therefore condemning someone based on the choice of their free will is counter productive of Gods plan.

Free-will is a blasphemous notion. I've probably heard it a thousand times before, but why do think that we would not exist this way (?), and how is punishing a person for denying God, Christ, and/or a life teeming with wickedness, counter productive in any way?

So why would God commit souls to hell, only because they worshiped him in a way that others thought unorthodox?

Others? How a person worships, or doesn't worship means nothing to me. A persons opinion on a matter counts for naught in regards to God sovereign judgement. People simply repeat what the word of God tells them-- many do not agree or flat out 'hate' many of God's decrees. This is normal, we are sinful, and by nature enemies of God.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Dogknox
Posts: 5,072
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/25/2012 8:17:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Paradox_7 you said..
No, it would be more like disinfecting, or fumigating. The problem with your assertion, is that you assume people are good. I'm not sure if you are familiar with the bible, but it says man is evil; to the very core-- the heart.

No one is righteous, no not even one" - Romans 3


God says.. THE RIGHTEOUS GO TO HEAVEN BECAUSE THEY ARE GOOD!
34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, "Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me."

37 "Then the righteous will answer him, "Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?"

40 "The King will reply, "I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me."


Paradox_7 Are you saying God tells LIES!!!??
"I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me."
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/25/2012 8:36:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/25/2012 8:17:32 PM, Dogknox wrote:


Ok, if you can Dog, please explain the passage from Romans 3.

Paul and David seem to imply that no one is righteous, then you provide scriptures that 'appear' to suggest that there are righteous men.

There cannot be contradiction in the Bible, you and I agree on this atleast.

So please, without too much emphasis, can you reconcile Romans 3 with the passages that seem to blatantly contradict the teaching "No one is righteous, no not even one"?
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
TheAntidoter
Posts: 4,323
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/26/2012 9:34:46 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/25/2012 6:14:28 AM, pozessed wrote:
At 10/25/2012 5:38:51 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
God will never condemn people to torment, they themselves do that either knowingly or unknowingly. God gave the basis's for His worship and only He is to be worshipped.


What is this torment that they would be condemning themselves to? Who created this place of torment? How would people get there if God didn't put them there or prevent them from getting there?


Hmm. What if god is just serving justice upon us for what we deserve?

We as people know genocide is wrong. Why do some of us allow ourselves to think God would really condemn anyone to torment, just because they got his name wrong.:
How can you get His name wrong? People speak other languages but they get God's name right in their language. God has given His name to us.
If I don't believe that Christ is the name of my savior, according to christian faith I am condemned.
Christ is also described as God in many references I have seen in the bible.


If you don't believe Christ is lord, that is.

No, God has not wanted anyone to be blind and I think He has shown that fact.
So why do good people who believe in science deny God?
God is incapable of presenting himself and showing the scientist proof?
Or, God found it best to let the scientist think for himself to best teach the scientist or someone effected by the scientist, what path God wanted them to take.

Free will is the point. Without free will, a ton of things do not make sense. He wishes that all would (key word in bold) CHOOSE him, but that is not the case. He would not interfere as it would not be love to force a fate upon them.

This sounds absurd. You can not receive salvation and the heavenly gift without recognizing God and submitting to him.
That's your opinion, and if it were true it shows conditional love, which is not possible with God if you believe in a God of love.

No, it would show that he loves people enough to let them walk their own path.

This is a one big error. This is the big plan of God. God gave the choice to choose Him, not by force, not if you choose not too. Plenty choose not too.

God is knowledge, what knowledge do men have without mistakes?

Well, only the fact that our ancestors literately ate for the, um, you know, THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE! SERIOUSLY!

Does God not want us to have knowledge of our universe and his work?

If he could convince Adam and Eve into using their free will to not eat of the tree without jeopardizing their free will, he would. But that was an impossibility.

If so then our free will has to be part of his plan, and these mistakes we make has a rectifying condition that he has made in preparation.

True, but that is love. Im going to break do next sentence into 2 points.

A better question is; where do these thoughts that God needs to be noticed generated?

They are generated by us people. God simply knew it would happen, he did not make it that way.

Why do feel so compelled to need others to accept their faith if they have a true connection to God.

Because they need their sins forgiven to get into heaven.

God wouldn't in this sense. God gave us the way of worship to Him(not men's opinions) and if you refuse that then you commit yourself to condemnation.
So again this is your personal promotion of spiritual genocide because someones description of God or worship is something you don't agree with.

They did not worship the one true god.

Even if you don't blatantly say it, your saying God will allow people to be damned because of their beliefs.

Already explained.
Affinity: Fire
Class: Human
Abilities: ????

Nac.

WOAH, COLORED FONT!
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/26/2012 11:49:26 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/26/2012 9:34:46 AM, TheAntidoter wrote:
Free will is the point. Without free will, a ton of things do not make sense. He wishes that all would (key word in bold) CHOOSE him, but that is not the case. He would not interfere as it would not be love to force a fate upon them.


By this logic, a mother shouldn't forcibly stop her 4 yr old from rushing into on going traffic? With love, she should let the child choose whether to: listen and turn around (live), or ignore her warnings and continue down her path(die)?

Or is it not clear what the child has already chosen? It's only moments before the child has reached their destination, make a choice?

This is not love, this is neglect.

God doesn't let his foolish children choose death, he grabs them by the arm and yanks them away from the certain death.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
TheAntidoter
Posts: 4,323
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/26/2012 4:05:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
( Must... Defend... My... Crappy... Point...)

Oh yeah, my rebuttal.

At 10/26/2012 11:49:26 AM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 10/26/2012 9:34:46 AM, TheAntidoter wrote:
Free will is the point. Without free will, a ton of things do not make sense. He wishes that all would (key word in bold) CHOOSE him, but that is not the case. He would not interfere as it would not be love to force a fate upon them.


By this logic,

a mother

This is where my argument starts. First off god is not a mother. God is infinite, knows everything, and is sinless.

shouldn't forcibly stop her 4 yr old

#0 4 year-old - mother relationship is highly different
#1 The mother sees the child as perfect in her eyes. Not god.
#3 The child does not know what they are doing. People who reject god know fully what they are doing.
#2 the child does not deserve her fate - on the other hand The wages of sin are death.
#4 The child does not know better. In the garden of Adam and Eve, god told them not to eat of the tree of good and evil. They did exactly what was told of them, and should have heeded the consequences. Same with us.
#5 free will itself.
#6 Your example is flawed as the mother cannot force the child to listen: that is her choice
#7 God knows all that will happen. The mother did not.
#8 Should god show respect to those who mock him? Grace is merely good will on god's part, if we deserved life, it would have been justice.

from rushing into on going traffic? With love, she should let the child choose whether to: listen and turn around (live), or ignore her warnings and continue down her path(die)?

Or is it not clear what the child has already chosen? It's only moments before the child has reached their destination, make a choice?

This is not love, this is neglect.

God doesn't let his foolish children choose death, he grabs them by the arm and yanks them away from the certain death.

Read above. Thank you for reading.
Affinity: Fire
Class: Human
Abilities: ????

Nac.

WOAH, COLORED FONT!
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/26/2012 5:44:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/26/2012 4:05:51 PM, TheAntidoter wrote:
This is where my argument starts. First off god is not a mother. God is infinite, knows everything, and is sinless.

First off, I used a mother in use to her parenthood. Doesn't matter if she is infinite or not, she knows far better than the child. The example is valid.

#0 4 year-old - mother relationship is highly different

A good parent love's his/her children unconditionally; this is the key similarity being portrayed. They will do whatever is necessary to ensure the saftey of their children.

#1 The mother sees the child as perfect in her eyes. Not god.

I have kids, and DO NOT view them as perfect; neither does their mother.

#3 The child does not know what they are doing. People who reject god know fully what they are doing.

No, they do not. Luke 23:34 (http://www.biblegateway.com...)

#2 the child does not deserve her fate - on the other hand The wages of sin are death.

How do you figure?

#4 The child does not know better. In the garden of Adam and Eve, god told them not to eat of the tree of good and evil. They did exactly what was told of them, and should have heeded the consequences. Same with us.

I believe the gap of knowledge between man and God can be appropriately described as that of an adult parent, and their infant children. I tell my 1 yr old son what not to do all the time, and he respond like an animal, because he knows I'm prohibiting him from doing something; he does it anyway.

#5 free will itself.

No such thing.
#6 Your example is flawed as the mother cannot force the child to listen: that is her choice

You miss the point, which is, the parent will do whatever is necessary to ensure the safety of his/her child. God will do whatever is necessary to ensure the salvation of his children(elect).

#7 God knows all that will happen. The mother did not.

You said this already... before point '0'.

#8 Should god show respect to those who mock him? Grace is merely good will on god's part, if we deserved life, it would have been justice.

God shows favor to those he loves. Grace isn't merely good will, is it unconditional love.

The gaping problem with free-will, is that the creature is in love with sin. All of man kind is tainted, in mind, heart, and spirit. Totally depraved; dead in sin.

If man is left to make his own decisions, he will never seek nor choose God. Romans 3 (http://www.biblegateway.com...)

But the most obvious problem with free-will, is that it's very directly opposed in scripture:

Romans 9
11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad"in order that God"s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls"she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God"s mercy.

Ephesians 1
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will" 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

John 15:16
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.

There are many more.. but I'll leave you with these for now.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
pozessed
Posts: 1,034
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/27/2012 3:24:45 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/25/2012 11:37:12 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
This is the case. God does reveal himself personnally. When you read scriptures you find salvation in them but you also see things meant for you and different for others.

That's my point God is magnificent and could undeniably appear to all.
He has a reason for doing that.

I also don't think God only comes to people who read scripture.
Also, I don't think God is going to condemn someone who feels "spiritually neglected" by God just because they couldn't find him in this lifetime.

Lifetime: A point in an eternal life that people feel significant enough to categorize it with time.

That isn't the case though. If it were there would be mutual agreement that any personal connection to God is the correct connection.:
If it differs from the Word God gave then it is not God but a false one. What sense is there for God to give His Word then act differently then what it says? It doesn't.

God gives all knowledge. It's the choices that are false gods.
Your right it doesn't make sense for God to give his word and then neglect his promise.
What promise does he have to make or neglect when he has nature as a tool for proclamation.

Man passing any type of judgment, about who may or may not go to hell, is proof of a misconception of God.:
It is not a misconception of God but misconception of thir place. Men can not say who will and who will not go to hell. Though the Word of God clearly states hell is real and will be torment for all who reject Him.

Allow me t reiterate. It's a misconception of Gods will.
I haven't done much research, but I am searching for proof that hells description wasn't only started as fear mongering in order to get people to listen and obey.

God is love and knowledge that we can not understand.:
Yes we can understand. That is naive to say that. God gives us the means to understand Him. God is love, ultimate love. What is true love? Free-will, choice to decide for yourself.

Again let me redefine what I meant to say. I like your answers though and they do agree with my thinking as well.
We can not understand love and knowledge the way that God does.

Why would a parent let their children create a room of torture and then idly watch them use this room of torture to mutilate themselves?:
Because apparently free-will is the ultimate love. You want to mutilate yourself (knowingly or unknowingly) that is your free choice.

I agree

God gave the way to Him and you can not find Him without it.

Why do you believe you need guided to something that is spiritually connected to you and that fills your head with the thoughts you are thinking now?

If a parent that tries to show unconditional love wouldn't do it, God wouldn't do it to us either is my assumption.:

Unconditional love, true love, is allowing you to choose for yourself.

I agree

You can not blame God if you refuse Him and the Word He gave.

I don't think anybody truly blames God. Not more than they blame their misunderstanding or their misinterpretation of Gods work anyway.

You can not change the Word to suit you. Yo can not deny the Word and think you will still find salvation.

I didn't deny Gods word, I deny that everything in any religious books that promote certain groups into heaven, were written with only the intents of God.
To be more clear, I don't doubt the history and predictions inside religious books. I only doubt that their descriptions of Gods will and the cruel intentions weren't manipulated or distorted in every mans translation of God.

Your not God however and your opinion doesn't matter, only His does.

You tell me not to rationalize God, but before you do that, you tell me "my opinion isn't important to you or God."
See the hypocrisy?
In case you don't, you are telling me that my thoughts on this subject are irrelevant, because I am not God and therefore shouldn't think in such a way.
Yet, you have the audacity to not only tell me how I should or shouldn't think, but to tell me that God doesn't care about what I think.
All while telling me that I shouldn't try to even think in Gods perspective.
Not only did you need to think in Gods perspective to tell me that, you implied what God chose to think of me as well, which is worse than just looking at his perspective IMO.

You have the chance to learn but are you? Remember those that hve God and believe His Word is that chance. They are the ones that try to teach you. That is our job. Once they have shown you that and you accept it, then it is you and God from then on.

I am but are you?
A job as a teacher is to ensure that students are guided in a curriculum full of facts.
Prophecies of God usually embody pictures of limitless patience, love, and understanding. Yet they also describe jealous, vindictive, spiteful which are the opposite of the first description.
Maybe if you thought of his patience as timeless instead of limitless you can agree with my thinking?

Again, placing one at Godhood. Thinking one can have Godlike understanding and just decisions is false.

Assuming that I am trying to be God instead of understand God is ignorant.

Why is it wrong to think in Gods perspective? Where does it say God doesn't want us to seek answers of him?

I would intervene by distracting them from the more dangerous areas of their contraptions by showing them something less dangerous.:
Has He not? It is foolish to claim He has not shown us the way.

I agree, but according to what you have been saying, you have limited yourself from seeing it in that perspective.

I believe sin is man made and so is hell.:
Most likely it is. We make it. We choose it. We will lie in the bed we make for ourselves. Blaming God or judging Him for it is self-centeredness. Claiming one deserves things they do not deserve is self-centered. Our objective is to be God centered.

How can anyone center themselves with God if they don't understand everything they find necessary for him to exist first?

Something that we do know about man made things is that none of them will last eternity.:
Man is also spiritual which is eternal. So when one denies God, they will recieve that eternal punishment by their own choice.

That's going into a whole new context.

I believe God is merely an observer of how we live, he chooses not to intervene with our choices because he is our choices, we just decide which path he allowed for us to choose and he observes.:

That is correct to a extent. His will, will be done, He uses us both saved and unsaved to fulfill it.

Exactly

I believe God will give everyone an infinite amount of chances and choices to find him and understand him.:
You have your whole life to find Him. When you decide not too fully then your time is numbered. When your life here is over your choice has been made. There is no infinate amount of time unless you mean this life.

Assuming that this is our only lifetime is absurd, considering how little we really know about Gods intent and the science about where our universe comes from.

Why not, he has eternity doesn't he?:
He is eternity. Eternity only consist with thought of some kind of time. God made the concept of eternity. He has that luxery, you do not unless you accept His Grace.

Understanding the knowledge that God has blessed me with is the grace he bestowed upon me. To deny your intelligent capabilities to understand God is also a way of denying God IMO.

Here's a better question, how does hell show any form of eternal patience?:
He still knows you will not change and when that last chance to come to Him is given then your lost forever. The last chance is ultimately on your earthly death

This is my point exactly with that question.
There is no last chance with eternal patience. We have eternity to find him.
pozessed
Posts: 1,034
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/27/2012 3:57:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/25/2012 11:46:08 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 10/25/2012 5:04:37 AM, pozessed wrote:
If your belief is that God will condemn good people to torment based on the name of their faith, you believe that God condones a form of genocide.

This point, alone, does not mean God condones a form of genocide. But your definition of "spiritual genocide" above, combined with the doctrine that God will banish unbelieving sinners from heaven does mean that God condones a form of genocide. (So does the flood story, by the way.)

So you believe genocide is a justified action when a group of people disagree with you?
We are micro organisms compared to the universe, and we are eating up the knowledge that God gave us.
God knows that he created us and doesn't need our recognition for him to recognize us.
Therefore while we are eating without showing him recognition, you assume he is getting mad enough to poison our food, only because we don't agree with him or each other about who made the food or where it came from.

We as people know genocide is wrong. Why do some of us allow ourselves to think God would really condemn anyone to torment, just because they got his name wrong.

First, God has perogatives that we don't have. For example, God has the right to seek revenge, but we do not (Romans 12:19-20). In the same way, God has the right to commit genocide in some situations, but that doesn't mean we do. So genocide is wrong for us, but that doesn't mean it's wrong for God.

A God of unconditional love shouldn't commit his people to death for any reason. Heavenly or Earthly.

Second, God doesn't condemn people just because they got his name wrong. Rather, he condemns people for all of their sins. And since everybody sins, we all stand condemned already.

Yes that makes sense, let me create you, neglect you, and cast you into a pit of fire all because you were created to sin in the first place.
If we weren't created to sin, then Adam and Eve were a mistake, and God doesn't make mistakes.


Third, the reason some people allow themselves to think God would really condemn people is because (1) the Bible says so and (2) guilty people deserve to be punished.

I agree, but those are humanly thoughts and should be ignored when trying to rationalize life in the way that God intended it.


Instead, all we have to do is realize Gods love is unconditional. No matter how misguided our thoughts and actions may be, he will have always find a reason to love everything and everyone.

God does not love everybody in the same way. He certainly didn't love Jacob and Esau in the same way.

Stories like that aren't always about Gods love but Gods lessons. Gods lessons can always lead to love if we look for it.
Even though he teaches us all in different ways to find his love, that doesn't mean his love is different when we do find it.

Free will is obviously a big condition in Gods plan.

What about his plan to love everybody? You said earlier that God's love is unconditional. If God's love is unconditional, and it is part of God's plan, then God's plan would be unconditional, and if God's plan is unconditional, then free will can't be a big condition of God's plan.

It sounds like you just went in a big circle of saying our free will doesn't exist because Gods love cancels it out.
I agree if that is what you are saying. The only thing I disagree with would be that free will doesn't exist.
I assume free will does exist, seeing as I can choose to go rob a bank, murder people, or sit here and finish this sentence.

If it wasn't we would not exist the way we do.

Unless we don't have free will, in which case we'd exist exactly the way we do.

Free will means no choices, where is there a lack of choices in the universe?

Therefore condemning someone based on the choice of their free will is counter productive of Gods plan.

Au contrair. The judgement at the eschaton is part of God's plan (Acts 17:31), and God judges people because of their choices (2 Corinthians 5:10).

Didn't that get transcribed from God through man? So how do I know who is really allowing judgment to be passed?

So why would God commit souls to hell, only because they worshiped him in a way that others thought unorthodox?

God doesn't judge people on the basis of what other people think of how they worship. God judges people because of the wrong they do.

Doesn't the saying go "good deeds alone won't get you into heaven"?
Apparently accepting a God who is vindictive and spiteful that proclaims to be loving and understanding, along with my good deeds, are the only way to everlasting life...
Double_Helix46
Posts: 466
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/27/2012 8:55:28 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/27/2012 3:24:45 AM, pozessed wrote:
That's my point God is magnificent and could undeniably appear to all.
He has a reason for doing that.

I also don't think God only comes to people who read scripture.
Also, I don't think God is going to condemn someone who feels "spiritually neglected" by God just because they couldn't find him in this lifetime.:
My friend this lifetime is all you have to decide their is no next time.
I haven't done much research, but I am searching for proof that hells description wasn't only started as fear mongering in order to get people to listen and obey.:
GL. I am glad you are searching.
We can not understand love and knowledge the way that God does.:
I agree.
God gave the way to Him and you can not find Him without it.:
Indeed.

Why do you believe you need guided to something that is spiritually connected to you and that fills your head with the thoughts you are thinking now?:
Because the Bible is what testifies of God from those that were before me and had much more connection than I.ted away from the Bible but I must seek it for more than just knowledge per say. I need it for encouragement.
I didn't deny Gods word, I deny that everything in any religious books that promote certain groups into heaven, were written with only the intents of God.:
How so? God only permits those that accept Him completely.
To be more clear, I don't doubt the history and predictions inside religious books. I only doubt that their descriptions of Gods will and the cruel intentions weren't manipulated or distorted in every mans translation of God.:
I disagree. I agree with every intent inside the Bible.
You tell me not to rationalize God, but before you do that, you tell me "my opinion isn't important to you or God.":
Your opinion is important to me but not so much to God. God wants His will done and not yours or mine. I include myself here.
See the hypocrisy?:
Nope.
In case you don't, you are telling me that my thoughts on this subject are irrelevant, because I am not God and therefore shouldn't think in such a way.:
Not the case and I apologize of it seems that way. You should question and think but in the end only Gods will should be done. It is up to you to decide what that is for you. This is why the Bible is important or we can lead into our wants and not Gods.
Yet, you have the audacity to not only tell me how I should or shouldn't think, but to tell me that God doesn't care about what I think.:
He cares about your heart and will for Him. It is about God and not us.
All while telling me that I shouldn't try to even think in Gods perspective.:
Can you? You should try and think how the Bible speaks to you. It is God breathed and threw it you find Gods will.
Not only did you need to think in Gods perspective to tell me that, you implied what God chose to think of me as well, which is worse than just looking at his perspective IMO.:
I read my Bible daily. The entire thing suggest God's will be done not man's.
I am but are you?:
I try.
A job as a teacher is to ensure that students are guided in a curriculum full of facts.:
All I will ever teach is read your Bible and become knowledgeable in that.
Prophecies of God usually embody pictures of limitless patience, love, and understanding. Yet they also describe jealous, vindictive, spiteful which are the opposite of the first description.:
You mistake punishment of evil as those triats.
Maybe if you thought of his patience as timeless instead of limitless you can agree with my thinking?:
Could you duldge deeper here?
Assuming that I am trying to be God instead of understand God is ignorant.:
That is not what I am trying to say.
Why is it wrong to think in Gods perspective?:
Because we will never.
Where does it say God doesn't want us to seek answers of him?:
Always seek answers from God.
I agree, but according to what you have been saying, you have limited yourself from seeing it in that perspective.:
No, I know I am limited because I am not God or can be. I just seek to follow God and let Him teach me and not become all knowable but take what He gives.
How can anyone center themselves with God if they don't understand everything they find necessary for him to exist first?:
Why do we need to know His existance? What benefit is that for us?
Assuming that this is our only lifetime is absurd, considering how little we really know about Gods intent and the science about where our universe comes from.:
It is not absurd because the Bible specifically tells us this is our one earthly lifetime. In this lifetime decides heaven or hell.
Understanding the knowledge that God has blessed me with is the grace he bestowed upon me. To deny your intelligent capabilities to understand God is also a way of denying God IMO.:
Intelligence is good and all but it is man's not God's. Intelligence can lead one away from God as well. Self gradification.
This is my point exactly with that question.
There is no last chance with eternal patience. We have eternity to find him.:
Look, Jesus came and died for men. Not angels or eternal beings. We all saved and unsaved will have some kind of eternal life but the life you chose here decides your eternal one. Heaven or hell. This is specific in the Bible.
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/27/2012 12:27:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/27/2012 3:57:54 AM, pozessed wrote:
At 10/25/2012 11:46:08 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 10/25/2012 5:04:37 AM, pozessed wrote:
If your belief is that God will condemn good people to torment based on the name of their faith, you believe that God condones a form of genocide.

This point, alone, does not mean God condones a form of genocide. But your definition of "spiritual genocide" above, combined with the doctrine that God will banish unbelieving sinners from heaven does mean that God condones a form of genocide. (So does the flood story, by the way.)

So you believe genocide is a justified action when a group of people disagree with you?
We are micro organisms compared to the universe, and we are eating up the knowledge that God gave us.
God knows that he created us and doesn't need our recognition for him to recognize us.
Therefore while we are eating without showing him recognition, you assume he is getting mad enough to poison our food, only because we don't agree with him or each other about who made the food or where it came from.

I'm not sure how you got that out of what I said, but no, that is not my position.

First, God has perogatives that we don't have. For example, God has the right to seek revenge, but we do not (Romans 12:19-20). In the same way, God has the right to commit genocide in some situations, but that doesn't mean we do. So genocide is wrong for us, but that doesn't mean it's wrong for God.

A God of unconditional love shouldn't commit his people to death for any reason. Heavenly or Earthly.

Love is not God's only attribute, and I'm not convinced that God's love is unconditional, at least not without qualification.

Second, God doesn't condemn people just because they got his name wrong. Rather, he condemns people for all of their sins. And since everybody sins, we all stand condemned already.

Yes that makes sense, let me create you, neglect you, and cast you into a pit of fire all because you were created to sin in the first place.
If we weren't created to sin, then Adam and Eve were a mistake, and God doesn't make mistakes.

I can understand why you would think that if God creates us in such a way that we have a desire for sin, and if we sin as a result of that desire, that it would be unjust for God to punish us for sinning. But consider this thought experiment:

In the Harry Potter books, Voldemort is portrayed as an evil person who does terrible things to innocent people. In the story, he is clearly culpable for his crimes. But he's not culpable in reality since he doesn't exist in reality. And J.K. Rowling determines what Voldemort does within the story. But suppose J.K. Rowling had the power to pull Voldemort out of the story and into reality. And suppose that if she did so, Voldemort would be in reality just as he is in the story. He would have all the same selfish desire and evil intentions, and he would behave badly because of those evil intentions. Would Vodemort be responsible for his actions?

Or consider a modified thought experiment:

Suppose there are two people named Voldemort who exist in reality, and they are exactly alike in every way. They look alike, think alike, act alike, etc. Their brains are made of the same stuff with the exact same physical structure down to the neuron. Their personalities are identical, and they even have identical memories. The only difference between them is that one of them was born into the world and grew up the usual way. The other was creating by J.K. Rowling instantly five days ago. Are they both culpable for their actions? Or is neither culpable for his actions? Is is one culpable but the other not?

If you say Voldemort is culpable for his actions regardless of how he came into existence, then you cannot object to God holding people responsible for their actions just because they happen to be born with sinful proclivities.

Third, the reason some people allow themselves to think God would really condemn people is because (1) the Bible says so and (2) guilty people deserve to be punished.

I agree, but those are humanly thoughts and should be ignored when trying to rationalize life in the way that God intended it.

I'm not following you.

Instead, all we have to do is realize Gods love is unconditional. No matter how misguided our thoughts and actions may be, he will have always find a reason to love everything and everyone.

God does not love everybody in the same way. He certainly didn't love Jacob and Esau in the same way.

Stories like that aren't always about Gods love but Gods lessons.

Actually, it is about God's love. It explicitly says so. "Jacob I love, but Esau I hated" (Romans 9:13).

Free will is obviously a big condition in Gods plan.

What about his plan to love everybody? You said earlier that God's love is unconditional. If God's love is unconditional, and it is part of God's plan, then God's plan would be unconditional, and if God's plan is unconditional, then free will can't be a big condition of God's plan.

It sounds like you just went in a big circle of saying our free will doesn't exist because Gods love cancels it out.

No, that is not what I said. I'm pointing out an inconsistency in what YOU said. You said that God's love is unconditional. Then you said free will is a big condition of God's plan.

I assume free will does exist, seeing as I can choose to go rob a bank, murder people, or sit here and finish this sentence.

A person can deny free will and still believe those things. If you did go rob a bank or whatever, then you did so on purpose. If you did so on purpose, then you did it for a reason. You were either inclined to so act, you wanted to, or you had some motive or reason. You didn't just act spontaneously with no reason or motive at all. That means your choices were at least influenced by your prior mental predispositions if not determined by them. There is a kind of determinism that is compatible with free will. It is a determinism that says your choices are determined by your strongest motivation, desire, inclination, etc. You are free in the sense that you can do what you want free from being forced to act against your will.

If it wasn't we would not exist the way we do.

Unless we don't have free will, in which case we'd exist exactly the way we do.

Free will means no choices, where is there a lack of choices in the universe?

Free will means no choices? That's news to me.

Therefore condemning someone based on the choice of their free will is counter productive of Gods plan.

Au contrair. The judgement at the eschaton is part of God's plan (Acts 17:31), and God judges people because of their choices (2 Corinthians 5:10).

Didn't that get transcribed from God through man? So how do I know who is really allowing judgment to be passed?

If you don't believe the Bible accurately conveys what God intended it to convey, then you can't use the Bible to tell you what the attributes of God are. After all, the Bible might've been wrong to say that God loves people in any sense. But if you're going to assume the authority of the Bible, at least for the sake of argument, then you're going to have to concede the point I'm making here.

So why would God commit souls to hell, only because they worshiped him in a way that others thought unorthodox?

God doesn't judge people on the basis of what other people think of how they worship. God judges people because of the wrong they do.

Doesn't the saying go "good deeds alone won't get you into heaven"?

Yes, but that doesn't negate my point.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
TheAntidoter
Posts: 4,323
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/27/2012 9:23:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I wish myself luck becuase i will need it.

At 10/26/2012 5:44:51 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 10/26/2012 4:05:51 PM, TheAntidoter wrote:
This is where my argument starts. First off god is not a mother. God is infinite, knows everything, and is sinless.

First off, I used a mother in use to her parenthood. Doesn't matter if she is infinite or not, she knows far better than the child. The example is valid.

OK. I concede your point.


#0 4 year-old - mother relationship is highly different

A good parent love's his/her children unconditionally; this is the key similarity being portrayed. They will do whatever is necessary to ensure the safety of their children.

A similarity, I will give you that.

#1 The mother sees the child as perfect in her eyes. Not god.

I have kids, and DO NOT view them as perfect; neither does their mother.

Point taken.

#3 The child does not know what they are doing. People who reject god know fully what they are doing.


Well, they think they know what they they doing, but they do not. They think they were killing a man who had been accused of blasphemy, but they were killing the blameless son of man in reality. That is what I meant to say.

No, they do not. Luke 23:34 (http://www.biblegateway.com...)

#2 the child does not deserve her fate - on the other hand The wages of sin are death.

How do you figure?


#4 The child does not know better. In the garden of Adam and Eve, god told them not to eat of the tree of good and evil. They did exactly what was told of them, and should have heeded the consequences. Same with us.

I believe the gap of knowledge between man and God can be appropriately described as that of an adult parent, and their infant children. I tell my 1 yr old son what not to do all the time, and he respond like an animal, because he knows I'm prohibiting him from doing something; he does it anyway.

Does it change the fact that he did it?


#5 free will itself.

No such thing.
#6 Your example is flawed as the mother cannot force the child to listen: that is her choice

You miss the point, which is, the parent will do whatever is necessary to ensure the safety of his/her child. God will do whatever is necessary to ensure the salvation of his children(elect).

Obviously not if everyone is not saved. This all comes down to the point of free will.


#7 God knows all that will happen. The mother did not.

You said this already... before point '0'.

I am repetitive at times.


#8 Should god show respect to those who mock him? Grace is merely good will on god's part, if we deserved life, it would have been justice.

God shows favor to those he loves. Grace isn't merely good will, is it unconditional love.

The gaping problem with free-will, is that the creature is in love with sin. All of man kind is tainted, in mind, heart, and spirit. Totally depraved; dead in sin.

If man is left to make his own decisions, he will never seek nor choose God. Romans 3 (http://www.biblegateway.com...)

And that is part of why the holy spirit exists.

But the most obvious problem with free-will, is that it's very directly opposed in scripture:

Romans 9
11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad"in order that God"s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls"she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God"s mercy.


Ephesians 1
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will" 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.


John 15:16
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.

There are many more.. but I'll leave you with these for now.

So if you do not believe in free will, then you are saying that god knew what they were going to do, but did not do nothing because it would not truly be love.

I just realized parts of my arguments were circular.

I concede all points. I would like to debate this with you, but however, That would require me to prove free will, which goes against my belief of predestination.
Good Job.
Affinity: Fire
Class: Human
Abilities: ????

Nac.

WOAH, COLORED FONT!
pozessed
Posts: 1,034
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/27/2012 10:20:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/27/2012 9:23:04 PM, TheAntidoter wrote:
I concede all points. I would like to debate this with you, but however, That would require me to prove free will, which goes against my belief of predestination.
Good Job.

I don't mean to butt in, especially since I'd like to respond to the posts before yours.

I am curious however, don't you think that God would want you to look into the possibility of free will?
We have a brain, we might as well use it.
I myself consider my intelligence and wisdom a blessing.
To ignore any possibility is to ignore your own intellectual capabilities.
Df0512
Posts: 966
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/28/2012 1:09:50 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/25/2012 5:04:37 AM, pozessed wrote:
Spiritual Genocide can be defined as banishing particular groups of souls from getting into heaven.

If your belief is that God will condemn good people to torment based on the name of their faith, you believe that God condones a form of genocide.

We as people know genocide is wrong. Why do some of us allow ourselves to think God would really condemn anyone to torment, just because they got his name wrong.

Instead, all we have to do is realize Gods love is unconditional. No matter how misguided our thoughts and actions may be, he will have always find a reason to love everything and everyone.
If someone is blind to God, it's because God wants them to be blind.
They have contributions to teach or learn that would be better expressed to that individual without them realizing God made it possible.

Free will is obviously a big condition in Gods plan.
If it wasn't we would not exist the way we do.
Therefore condemning someone based on the choice of their free will is counter productive of Gods plan.

So why would God commit souls to hell, only because they worshiped him in a way that others thought unorthodox?

Chiming in as promised. I agree with pozessed in a way. I don't believe God is throwing people in hell. According to the bible damn near everyone on earth would be there if it were true. But then i don't necessarily believe the bible is Gods word. I believe it is mans word. So I don't really believe any of it is true. Although I do believe in a God. The world we live in just isn't consistent with the bible and neither are the followers of it. There's dozens of religions based of the same book. It would be easy to assume that if God wanted to be praised he wouldn't go about it so sloppy. This thread proves that.
Double_Helix46
Posts: 466
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/28/2012 2:10:51 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/28/2012 1:09:50 AM, Df0512 wrote:
I don't believe God is throwing people in hell.:
Correct people cast themselves there.
According to the bible damn near everyone on earth would be there if it were true.:
How so?
But then i don't necessarily believe the bible is Gods word. I believe it is mans word.:
Really, care to explain why?
So I don't really believe any of it is true.:
Much of it has been shown true just by the historical and archealogical evidence.
Although I do believe in a God.:
What God would that be?
The world we live in just isn't consistent with the bible:
Please explain.
and neither are the followers of it.:
This is true but that is men and not God.
There's dozens of religions based of the same book.:
Are they? Judaism and Christianity is the only two I know of.
It would be easy to assume that if God wanted to be praised he wouldn't go about it so sloppy.:
Really, how is God sloppy?
This thread proves that.:
This thread shows that how?
Df0512
Posts: 966
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/28/2012 3:53:11 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/28/2012 2:10:51 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
At 10/28/2012 1:09:50 AM, Df0512 wrote:
I don't believe God is throwing people in hell.:
Correct people cast themselves there.
According to the bible damn near everyone on earth would be there if it were true.:
How so?
But then i don't necessarily believe the bible is Gods word. I believe it is mans word.:
Really, care to explain why?
So I don't really believe any of it is true.:
Much of it has been shown true just by the historical and archealogical evidence.
Although I do believe in a God.:
What God would that be?
The world we live in just isn't consistent with the bible:
Please explain.
and neither are the followers of it.:
This is true but that is men and not God.
There's dozens of religions based of the same book.:
Are they? Judaism and Christianity is the only two I know of.
It would be easy to assume that if God wanted to be praised he wouldn't go about it so sloppy.:
Really, how is God sloppy?
This thread proves that.:
This thread shows that how?

Wow my friend you really don't like my response.lol Buckle up this is going to be along one. Sorry

1. God is throwing people in hell. Basically he says submit to his word or down you go. That isn't really a fair choice. Our free will seems to consist of doing what he says or paying the price.

2. While Christianity(all forms) is the largest religion in the world, it only takes up 33% of the worlds entire population. That means 67% of the worlds entire population is getting it wrong. Not to mention those who have already pasted. That means the majority of the earths population havn't won't and will not be going to heaven.

3. I challenge you to prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that the bible speaks the truth. Prove to me that these words came from god and if you follow them you will go to heaven. Or that there is a heaven. Prove to me something. I do not doubt that certain events in the bible may have happened. Nor do I disbelieve that a man named Jesus may have walked this earth. And that he was a great man who taught many how to love. I'm talk about the spiritual significance.

Let me just say that my father is a pastor of a church. Faith Embassy. I grew up in church and I have no vendetta against it. I'm a better man because of it. I also don't go around looking to prove people's beliefs wrong. I totally respect christianitys believers aka MY ENTIRE FAMILY lol.

4. You ask what God I believe in. Well I believe in god purely out of necessity. I believe the universe would not have existed without a god or something to create it. I do not believe in a religious god. In fact I only use the word god to give identity to this unknown creature. I believe we simply don't know and we won't know until we die or someone shows me proof that the bible is right. Until than i chose not tonbelieve in the bible or any other religion.

5. You ask me to explain how the world is consistent with the bible. I will just point out all the dying children in this country and neighboring countries and their countless unanswered prayers.

6. Why would god create a one book that is supposed to explain the most important thing EVER and make it so inconsistent. Man is inconsistent because the book is.

7. Yes there are more than 2 religions of the bible. If you want to make an argument and say Mormons and Methodist, are both Christians and therefore are of the same religion, fine. But they don't believe the same thing. The World Mission Society are Christians and they believe Jesus already came back as an Asian guy names Ahn Sahng-hong. And we know they not gone hear that in a good ol southern baptist church. Nor do they believe Mormons got it right. Call it what you will they beliefs are different but the book is the same.

8. The bible is sloppy in a sense because of the way it can be interpreted. Take number 7 for example. I don't think god would create something that would cause so much confusion and itself cause death. And there are people in the bible who have died in the name of god. Also, there are innocent beautiful babies dying all over the world for selfish evil reasons. Yet here, Justin Bieber drives a car....made of chrome. Sorry but if the god you speak of does exist I see no reason why that world be. I understand mans effect on things but still where is god in all of this.

8. This thread proves it because you yourselves can not come to an agreement on his word. And you all follow his word. And i think the topic isn't to be taken lightly. It could litterally mean an eternity in hell if pozesssd is wrong. And if you say that it is man wo has confused his word how can any of you be sure you aren't confused. How old is this book? How many times has it been translated? No one has any proof, just faith. Bottom line is that there is no proof and science has provided some. So is there a god, yes I believe so. But I believe that only at the beginning of all things, before the universe and the big bang, will we find our "god". Not in prayer or anything else. I believe we our on our own until then.
Smithereens
Posts: 5,512
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/28/2012 4:56:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/25/2012 5:04:37 AM, pozessed wrote:
Spiritual Genocide can be defined as banishing particular groups of souls from getting into heaven.

If your belief is that God will condemn good people to torment based on the name of their faith, you believe that God condones a form of genocide.

We as people know genocide is wrong. Why do some of us allow ourselves to think God would really condemn anyone to torment, just because they got his name wrong.

Instead, all we have to do is realize Gods love is unconditional. No matter how misguided our thoughts and actions may be, he will have always find a reason to love everything and everyone.
If someone is blind to God, it's because God wants them to be blind.
They have contributions to teach or learn that would be better expressed to that individual without them realizing God made it possible.

Free will is obviously a big condition in Gods plan.
If it wasn't we would not exist the way we do.
Therefore condemning someone based on the choice of their free will is counter productive of Gods plan.

So why would God commit souls to hell, only because they worshiped him in a way that others thought unorthodox?

God condemns worship that is man made.
Music composition contest: http://www.debate.org...
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Posts: 2,900
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/28/2012 6:26:38 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/25/2012 5:04:37 AM, pozessed wrote:
Spiritual Genocide can be defined as banishing particular groups of souls from getting into heaven.

If your belief is that God will condemn good people to torment based on the name of their faith, you believe that God condones a form of genocide.

Inclusivism.

We as people know genocide is wrong. Why do some of us allow ourselves to think God would really condemn anyone to torment, just because they got his name wrong.

We're not God.

Instead, all we have to do is realize Gods love is unconditional. No matter how misguided our thoughts and actions may be, he will have always find a reason to love everything and everyone.
If someone is blind to God, it's because God wants them to be blind.

????

They have contributions to teach or learn that would be better expressed to that individual without them realizing God made it possible.

Free will is obviously a big condition in Gods plan.
If it wasn't we would not exist the way we do.
Therefore condemning someone based on the choice of their free will is counter productive of Gods plan.

How so.

So why would God commit souls to hell, only because they worshiped him in a way that others thought unorthodox?

Good question.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
TheAntidoter
Posts: 4,323
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/29/2012 7:52:11 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/27/2012 10:20:19 PM, pozessed wrote:
At 10/27/2012 9:23:04 PM, TheAntidoter wrote:
I concede all points. I would like to debate this with you, but however, That would require me to prove free will, which goes against my belief of predestination.
Good Job.

I don't mean to butt in, especially since I'd like to respond to the posts before yours.

I am curious however, don't you think that God would want you to look into the possibility of free will?
We have a brain, we might as well use it.
I myself consider my intelligence and wisdom a blessing.
To ignore any possibility is to ignore your own intellectual capabilities.

Yeah, I messed up on some points, and my argument is circular like this

I say: Free will is love
They say: No, God should save everyone.
I say: That is not love
They say: Why?
I say: Free will is love.

And I screwed up in my format, which is what caused this. If I can figure out another reason after "WHY?", Then I could extend my argument.w
Affinity: Fire
Class: Human
Abilities: ????

Nac.

WOAH, COLORED FONT!
TheAntidoter
Posts: 4,323
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/29/2012 10:51:50 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
1. God is throwing people in hell. Basically he says submit to his word or down you go. That isn't really a fair choice. Our free will seems to consist of doing what he says or paying the price.
We deserve hell, and sending us there is justice. Saving us is a matter of god's mercy and our faith.

2. While Christianity(all forms) is the largest religion in the world, it only takes up 33% of the worlds entire population. That means 67% of the worlds entire population is getting it wrong. Not to mention those who have already pasted. That means the majority of the earths population haven't won't and will not be going to heaven.
You do not believe in god. It is your choice. If you want to be forced into this religion, I do not see how that could work.

3. I challenge you to prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that the bible speaks the truth. Prove to me that these words came from god and if you follow them you will go to heaven. Or that there is a heaven. Prove to me something. I do not doubt that certain events in the bible may have happened. Nor do I disbelieve that a man named Jesus may have walked this earth. And that he was a great man who taught many how to love. I'm talk about the spiritual significance.
Next point you go on to say that you do not try to prove people's beliefs wrong, yet challenge them whether their belief is right or wrong.

Let me just say that my father is a pastor of a church. Faith Embassy. I grew up in church and I have no vendetta against it. I'm a better man because of it. I also don't go around looking to prove people's beliefs wrong. I totally respect Christianity's believers aka MY ENTIRE FAMILY lol.

4. You ask what God I believe in. Well I believe in god purely out of necessity. I believe the universe would not have existed without a god or something to create it. I do not believe in a religious god. In fact I only use the word god to give identity to this unknown creature. I believe we simply don't know and we won't know until we die or someone shows me proof that the bible is right. Until than I chose not to believe in the bible or any other religion.
That is your choice.

5. You ask me to explain how the world is consistent with the bible. I will just point out all the dying children in this country and neighboring countries and their countless unanswered prayers.
Did you mean inconsistent or consistent? I cannot tell.

6. Why would god create a one book that is supposed to explain the most important thing EVER and make it so inconsistent. Man is inconsistent because the book is.


7. Yes there are more than 2 religions of the bible.
They are called denominations, but I get your point.
If you want to make an argument and say Mormons and Methodist, are both Christians and therefore are of the same religion, fine. But they don't believe the same thing. The World Mission Society are Christians and they believe Jesus already came back as an Asian guy names Ahn Sahng-hong. And we know they not gone hear that in a good ol southern Baptist church. Nor do they believe Mormons got it right. Call it what you will they beliefs are different but the book is the same.
Their interpretations of the source text are different.

8. The bible is sloppy in a sense because of the way it can be interpreted. Take number 7 for example. I don't think god would create something that would cause so much confusion and itself cause death.
Where were you at the beginning of creation? Job 39:1
And there are people in the bible who have died in the name of god.
Because (some) people hate Christianity. It's not the fault of the religion that it is persecuted.
Also, there are innocent beautiful babies dying all over the world for selfish evil reasons.
And as a people, we try to stop those tragedies from happening.
Yet here, Justin Bieber drives a car....made of chrome.
Are you saying he is evil?
Sorry but if the god you speak of does exist I see no reason why that world be. I understand mans effect on things but still where is god in all of this.


8. This thread proves it because you yourselves can not come to an agreement on his word.
So the problem you made is the argument you present.

And you all follow his word. And I think the topic isn't to be taken lightly. It could literally mean an eternity in hell if pozesssd is wrong. And if you say that it is man who has confused his word how can any of you be sure you aren't confused?

How old is this book? How many times has it been translated? No one has any proof, just faith.

There are over 13000 manuscripts found of the bible. Less then 10 were found of the Iliad. Invalid.
Bottom line is that there is no proof and science has provided some.
You are assuming that faith is not needed Which is not what our bible teaches.
So is there a god, yes I believe so. But I believe that only at the beginning of all things, before the universe and the big bang, will we find our "god". Not in prayer or anything else. I believe we our on our own until then.

P . S Lol, Autocorrect turns Beiber into bayberry.
Affinity: Fire
Class: Human
Abilities: ????

Nac.

WOAH, COLORED FONT!
Df0512
Posts: 966
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/29/2012 8:47:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
First of all, I don't deserve hell. And I dont know you but Im willing to bet you dont either. And I don't even need to go through all the people in the world who have done great things but may not have been religious and don't deserve to go to hell. You telling me I deserve in eternity of torture for living my life peacefully with my wife and son?

You do not believe in god. It is your choice. If you want to be forced into this religion, I do not see how that could work.

Second of all I clearly stated that I do believe on a "God". You even quoted me saying it. Don't assume I dont just because I dont believe in him the way you do. And I dont get the rest of your point.

Next point you go on to say that you do not try to prove people's beliefs wrong, yet challenge them whether their belief is right or wrong.

Thirdly, you seem to be choosing which parts of my sentences to argue. What I really said was "I also don't go around looking to prove people's beliefs wrong". I was asked to comment on this topic. And even if i wasn't the name of the site is debate.org. The point of the site is to debate. Also, I meant inconsistent.

Their interpretations of the source text are different

That is exactly my point.

Where were you at the beginning of creation? Job 39

Not sure what your getting at.

Because (some) people hate Christianity. It's not the fault of the religion that it is persecuted.

You miss understand. Im talking about people killing in the name of god. Better yet god him self killing massive amounts of people. I just don't believe it and the scriptures are there. And no Justin Beiber isn't evil im saying that kid has it all but other more deserving children have nothing.

How old is this book? How many times has it been translated? No one has any proof, just faith.

There are over 13000 manuscripts found of the bible. Less then 10 were found of the Iliad. Invalid.


Wrong. Why the heck would I ask anyone to prove the bible is real or old. I'm saying there is no proof that any of it works, for lack of a better word. I was saying that it is old and it has been translated to many times as it is. Who knows what changes were made. But thats my opinion I can't prove it.

Bottom line is that there is no proof and science has provided some.
You are assuming that faith is not needed Which is not what our bible teaches.


Im not assuming any thing. Im saying there is no proof. Period. I've tried faith it didn't work. And it doesn't seem to be working for a lot of other people as well.
Composer
Posts: 5,858
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/30/2012 5:53:35 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Story book god is a genocidal narcissistic bastard and according to the trinity theory it also Spiritually rapes little girls at will, makes them pregnant, refuses to Marry then dumps their little bastard on to a real man (Joseph) (cf. Luke 1:35) bible Story book

Then when any refuse to worship this little ' trinitarian god of love bastard ' it orders them to be killed! -

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [ them ] before me. (Luke 19:27) KJV Story book

Your literal Saviour moi!
TheAntidoter
Posts: 4,323
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/30/2012 11:26:57 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I cannot guarantee how believable/accurate my answers will be, so please hit the ________ alarm if I am completely wrong.

At 10/29/2012 8:47:15 PM, Df0512 wrote:
First of all, I don't deserve hell. And I don't know you but I'm willing to bet you don't either. And I don't even need to go through all the people in the world who have done great things but may not have been religious and don't deserve to go to hell. You telling me I deserve in eternity of torture for living my life peacefully with my wife and son?

No. If you believe deserve to get eternal life because you lived, that is wrong. The fact is, we have all sinned. No way around that. It does not matter how much good we have done if we have done bad things in the eyes of god. And I am willing to take that bet. How much?


You do not believe in god. It is your choice. If you want to be forced into this religion, I do not see how that could work.

Second of all I clearly stated that I do believe on a "God".
Wrong thread.
You even quoted me saying it. Don't assume I dont just because I dont believe in him the way you do. And I dont get the rest of your point.
Again, I posted this part in the wrong thread. Stupid me.

Next point you go on to say that you do not try to prove people's beliefs wrong, yet challenge them whether their belief is right or wrong.

Thirdly, you seem to be choosing which parts of my sentences to argue.
Yes. Would you like me to change my style and try and debate your whole response at once?
What I really said was "I also don't go around looking to prove people's beliefs wrong". I was asked to comment on this topic. And even if i wasn't the name of the site is debate.org. The point of the site is to debate. Also, I meant inconsistent.

I believe your words were (correct me if I am wrong) "I dare you to prove

Their interpretations of the source text are different

That is exactly my point.

The original bible is the same. Whether Translations of the original text are different does not concern the validity of the original hebrew/eek/latin bible.

Where were you at the beginning of creation? Job 39

Not sure what your getting at.

If you are (can't get the right word here) god for creating things wrong like pain and suffering, I am just wondering if you could do it better.

Because (some) people hate Christianity. It's not the fault of the religion that it is persecuted.

You miss understand. I'm talking about people killing in the name of god. Better yet god him self killing massive amounts of people. I just don't believe it and the scriptures are there. And no Justin Beiber isn't evil i'm saying that kid has it all but other more deserving children have nothing.

#1 Would you consider people killing in the name of god "false prophets?"
#2 If The ailicites and the jebusites and the....... On and on attacked your children, I think you would be pretty mad.
#3 How do you judge "more deserving" Children?

How old is this book? How many times has it been translated? No one has any proof, just faith.

There are over 13000 manuscripts found of the bible. Less then 10 were found of the Iliad. Invalid.


Wrong. Why the heck would I ask anyone to prove the bible is real or old. I'm saying there is no proof that any of it works, for lack of a better word. I was saying that it is old and it has been translated to many times as it is. Who knows what changes were made. But thats my opinion I can't prove it.

Bottom line is that there is no proof and science has provided some.
You are assuming that faith is not needed Which is not what our bible teaches.

Never said 2nd sentence.

Im not assuming any thing. Im saying there is no proof. Period. I've tried faith it didn't work. And it doesn't seem to be working for a lot of other people as well.

Your source for failing faith?
Affinity: Fire
Class: Human
Abilities: ????

Nac.

WOAH, COLORED FONT!