Total Posts:50|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Question about gods knowledge

Df0512
Posts: 966
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/27/2012 10:50:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Simple question, maybe: The bible tells us visa knows all. If that is true doesn't that mean ur knows wether or not we aol go to hell? And of he knows that doesn't that mean that some of us are just destined to go to hell? What chance do any of us really have if thats true? Let me knw
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/27/2012 11:29:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I believe that God knows what decision you will make, but that doesn't mean you're pre-destined. Ultimately, you make the decision.
Double_Helix46
Posts: 466
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/27/2012 11:38:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/27/2012 10:50:10 PM, Df0512 wrote:
visa knows all.:
Visa?
If that is true doesn't that mean ur knows wether or not we aol go to hell?:
ur knows?
And of he knows that doesn't that mean that some of us are just destined to go to hell? What chance do any of us really have if thats true?:
He does know but we make that choice at any point.
pozessed
Posts: 1,034
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/27/2012 11:46:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/27/2012 10:50:10 PM, Df0512 wrote:
Simple question, maybe: The bible tells us visa knows all. If that is true doesn't that mean ur knows wether or not we aol go to hell? And of he knows that doesn't that mean that some of us are just destined to go to hell? What chance do any of us really have if thats true? Let me knw

I'd like your response on my post about spiritual genocide.
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/27/2012 11:55:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/27/2012 10:50:10 PM, Df0512 wrote:
Simple question, maybe: The bible tells us visa knows all. If that is true doesn't that mean ur knows wether or not we aol go to hell? And of he knows that doesn't that mean that some of us are just destined to go to hell? What chance do any of us really have if thats true? Let me knw

Visa doesn't know all. Visa is just a credit card. It has no knowledge whatsoever, although it does have information on that little magnetic strip.

It is true that God knows who will go to hell. But it doesn't follow that you're determined to go to hell. At least not for that reason.

Look at it this way. By the law of excluded middle, one of the follow statements must be true:

1. You will go to hell.

or

2. You will not go to hell.

Whether anybody knows which of these statements are true or not, one of them is nevertheless true. Suppose it's 1. What makes 1 true is what will in fact happen in the future. If, in the future, you go to hell, then 1 was true all along, even if nobody knew it. And if, in the future, you will not to go hell, then 2 was true all along even if nobody knew it.

So one of those two statements is true even if nobody knows it. But it being true isn't what causes you to go to hell or not go to hell. On the contrary, it's the other way around. You going to hell or not in the future is what grounds the truth of one of those statements.

And if somebody comes along who happens to know which of the statements is true, that has no affect whatsoever on you.

I blogged about this issue here: http://philochristos.blogspot.com...
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Df0512
Posts: 966
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/28/2012 12:49:55 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
pozessed: I'll be sure to chime in, thanks.

philochristos: I don't understand you logic. And I read you blog. It sounds like your explaining Gods knowledge as if he were human. We are talking about someone who knows ALL. Past, present and future. The bible says that. That literally means that he knows all. It sounds like you are implying that he doesn't really know the future but only knows Ethel made peas because she made peas. And if we have free will how can that already be true. That isn't all knowing. That's just knowing. Please explain.
Df0512
Posts: 966
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/28/2012 12:54:27 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/27/2012 11:38:55 PM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
At 10/27/2012 10:50:10 PM, Df0512 wrote:
visa knows all.:
Visa?
If that is true doesn't that mean ur knows wether or not we aol go to hell?:
ur knows?
And of he knows that doesn't that mean that some of us are just destined to go to hell? What chance do any of us really have if thats true?:
He does know but we make that choice at any point.

Clearly you understood the point of the post. What is the point of highlighting minor mistakes. I assure you I am well educated. Feel free to expand on your response the topic.
Double_Helix46
Posts: 466
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/28/2012 2:19:48 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/28/2012 12:54:27 AM, Df0512 wrote:
Clearly you understood the point of the post. What is the point of highlighting minor mistakes. I assure you I am well educated.:
I normally would not make that stand out. I was curious as to if the way you spelled and used words had meaning to you.
Feel free to expand on your response the topic.

He does know but we make that choice at any point.
Composer
Posts: 5,858
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/28/2012 3:32:35 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/27/2012 11:29:59 PM, medic0506 wrote:
I believe that God knows what decision you will make, but that doesn't mean you're pre-destined. Ultimately, you make the decision.

Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: IF you actually believe that YOU make the decision, then my question to those like you " Why then as a self-acclaimed xtian, you keep freely repeatedly choosing / repeatedly making the decision to keep sinning? ".

Your Saviour moi!
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/28/2012 3:47:36 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
You're right but for the wrong reasons. God's fore-knowledge isn't what determines whether or not someone winds up in hell, but he is responsible for it and there's nothing you could do to change things, one way or the other. Just enjoy the ride and I'll see you in hell.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

https://i.imgflip.com...
Df0512
Posts: 966
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/28/2012 4:01:52 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/28/2012 3:47:36 AM, Maikuru wrote:
You're right but for the wrong reasons. God's fore-knowledge isn't what determines whether or not someone winds up in hell, but he is responsible for it and there's nothing you could do to change things, one way or the other. Just enjoy the ride and I'll see you in hell.

My god I hope your wrong. Hell sounds like it sucks lol. If that's truth what is the point of religion in the first place. And I am not saying god knowing the fact that I will go to hell makes it true. Although I don't see the alternative. I'm just saying it seems like he would know who is going and who isn't if he knows everything. So what choice would I have.
emospongebob527
Posts: 790
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/28/2012 10:59:25 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/28/2012 4:01:52 AM, Df0512 wrote:
At 10/28/2012 3:47:36 AM, Maikuru wrote:
You're right but for the wrong reasons. God's fore-knowledge isn't what determines whether or not someone winds up in hell, but he is responsible for it and there's nothing you could do to change things, one way or the other. Just enjoy the ride and I'll see you in hell.

My god I hope your wrong. Hell sounds like it sucks lol. If that's truth what is the point of religion in the first place. And I am not saying god knowing the fact that I will go to hell makes it true. Although I don't see the alternative. I'm just saying it seems like he would know who is going and who isn't if he knows everything. So what choice would I have.

The purpose of religion?

It is supposed to help people curb their lower nature; man transiting from the animal to the human specie, has so much of the lower nature ingrained in him. As a human being, you have the technology of mind, senses, intellect, and self awareness; all this equipment is supposed to help you to accelerate your evolution. Being steeped in lower nature, humans just create more problems and degradation in the world; they create imbalance, destroying the rest of humanity. Religion was formulated to help man rise above and subdue the lower nature through fear and superstition. The great masters, the enlightened beings, have been saying for thousands of years that we need to adopt and develop higher qualities of love, mercy, generosity and so on. In this way, society will be of higher quality and we will be better human beings. This will help to create a better world. That should be the purpose of religion.
"not to toot my own horn (it aint need no tooin if u know what im saying), but my writings on "viciousness: the one true viture (fancy spelling for virtue)" and my poem "A poem I wrote about DDO" put me in a class of my damn own. im just an UNRECONGIZED geniuse" -bananafana
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/28/2012 11:22:42 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/28/2012 12:49:55 AM, Df0512 wrote:
pozessed: I'll be sure to chime in, thanks.

It sounds like you are implying that he doesn't really know the future but only knows Ethel made peas because she made peas.

Nope. I am saying that we can have free will even if God knows absolutely every choice we will ever make in the future. I don't know how to explain it any clearer than I already have. That blog post was my best effort. I'm sorry it wasn't clear.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Df0512
Posts: 966
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/28/2012 12:20:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/28/2012 11:22:42 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 10/28/2012 12:49:55 AM, Df0512 wrote:
pozessed: I'll be sure to chime in, thanks.

It sounds like you are implying that he doesn't really know the future but only knows Ethel made peas because she made peas.

Nope. I am saying that we can have free will even if God knows absolutely every choice we will ever make in the future. I don't know how to explain it any clearer than I already have. That blog post was my best effort. I'm sorry it wasn't clear.

Well your blog is well written. I fully comprehend what you are saying. I just don't see how it makes sense. In the blog you say "But if God knows it because it"s true, then it being true is what causes God to know it. This is the common sense understanding of the way knowledge works". That sort of sounds like a human limitation and not something that would limit an all knowing God. I have read over you blog a few times know but I just don't see how your explanation shows he is telling the future. It literally sounds like your saying he only knows because something because it happens.

4. God knows (1) because it"s true.
5. (1) is true, because in reality Ethel will boil peas tomorrow.
6. Therefore, God knows (1) because Ethel will boil peas tomorrow.

Today is Sunday and Ethel will make peas Monday. God already knows this. But, how can it be true if it hasn't already happened. And if God only knows it because it is true, how does that show foreknowledge. How can something be true before it happens.

Also, I'm not necessarily saying it is true only because god already know it. Nor am I saying we do not have free will. I am simply saying God knows the future, therefore he knows who is going to hell and who isn't already. So some of us are destined to go to hell. But not by his knowing it, by the choices that get us there. But like you said he knows what choices we will make.
Df0512
Posts: 966
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/28/2012 12:27:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/28/2012 10:59:25 AM, emospongebob527 wrote:
At 10/28/2012 4:01:52 AM, Df0512 wrote:
At 10/28/2012 3:47:36 AM, Maikuru wrote:
You're right but for the wrong reasons. God's fore-knowledge isn't what determines whether or not someone winds up in hell, but he is responsible for it and there's nothing you could do to change things, one way or the other. Just enjoy the ride and I'll see you in hell.

My god I hope your wrong. Hell sounds like it sucks lol. If that's truth what is the point of religion in the first place. And I am not saying god knowing the fact that I will go to hell makes it true. Although I don't see the alternative. I'm just saying it seems like he would know who is going and who isn't if he knows everything. So what choice would I have.

The purpose of religion?

It is supposed to help people curb their lower nature; man transiting from the animal to the human specie, has so much of the lower nature ingrained in him. As a human being, you have the technology of mind, senses, intellect, and self awareness; all this equipment is supposed to help you to accelerate your evolution. Being steeped in lower nature, humans just create more problems and degradation in the world; they create imbalance, destroying the rest of humanity. Religion was formulated to help man rise above and subdue the lower nature through fear and superstition. The great masters, the enlightened beings, have been saying for thousands of years that we need to adopt and develop higher qualities of love, mercy, generosity and so on. In this way, society will be of higher quality and we will be better human beings. This will help to create a better world. That should be the purpose of religion.

I totally agree with you. I believe that religion is exactly that. Although is doesn't prove true for all religion. I agree that it serving that purpose is a purpose well served. But the question wasn't in reference to humanity as it is but to us going to heaven or hell. If god already knows who is going to heaven and who isn't, why create a religion that teaches you to follow it in order to get in to heaven. Kinda seems like he is giving a lot of people false hope.
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/28/2012 12:51:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/28/2012 12:20:34 PM, Df0512 wrote:
In the blog you say "But if God knows it because it"s true, then it being true is what causes God to know it. This is the common sense understanding of the way knowledge works". That sort of sounds like a human limitation and not something that would limit an all knowing God.

I don't know what you mean by "human limitation." I'm just explaining here how knowledge works. I don't see what "limitation" has to do with anything. You can only know something if it is true. Is that what you mean by "limitation"? Because if so, then I think God is limited in the same way. God can only know what is true. Can can't know something is true if it is, in fact, false. For example, God can't know the colour of my girlfriend's hair for the simple reason that I don't have a girlfriend. Since I don't have a girlfriend, there's no truth to the question of what her hair colour is, so there's nothing for God to know. Also, God cannot know that the earth is flat for the simple reason that the earth is not flat. The only way God could know the earth were flat is if the earth were flat in reality. So God and humans both have the same limitation (if you can really call it a "limitation). They can both only know things that are true.

I have read over you blog a few times know but I just don't see how your explanation shows he is telling the future.

I don't know what you mean by "telling the future." In my blog, I'm stipulating that God knows the future choices of free creatures.

It literally sounds like your saying he only knows because something because it happens.

Like I said above, God can only know something if it's true. So if God is to know anything about what happens, then it must really happen. The only way God can know that Ethel will boil peas tomorrow is if it's true that Ethel will boil peas tomorrow. He can't know that Ethel will boil peas tomorrow if it's not even true that Ethel will boil peas tomorrow.

Today is Sunday and Ethel will make peas Monday. God already knows this. But, how can it be true if it hasn't already happened.

That's a great question, and I think that's what this whole debate boils down to--whether future tensed statements about the actions of free creatures can have a truth value. If they cannot have a truth value, then there is nothing for God to know. That is essentially the argument of the open theists. They argue that God does not know the future actions of free creatures because there is nothing to know. There is no truth value you statements and propositions describing the future actions of free creatures. Statements like "Ethel will boil peas tomorrow" are neither true nor false since the event hasn't happened yet.

I gave one argument already showing that future tensed statements about the actions of free creatures do have a truth value. I argued that it follows from the law of excluded middle. By the law of excluded middle, one of these statements is true and the other is false:

1. Tomorrow, Ethel will boil peas.
2. Tomorrow, Ethel will not boil peas.

But there are other arguments. There's the argument from common sense and common usage. As humans, we continually make future tensed statements. We make promises, we make plans, we make predictions, etc. All of these things are meaningless if future tensed statements about the actions of free creatures have no truth value.

There's also the argument from consequences. Free creatures have their hands in everything, and being part of the causal chain leading to the future, if there is no truth value to their future free actions, then there is no truth value to anything that is the result of their future free actions. For example, there's no truth value to whether the average global temperature will go up or down in the future. There's no truth value to the question of whether trees will grow in the future (since free creatures could choose to plant them or cut them down). There's no truth value to the question of whether our species will survive in the future (since free creatures could choose to destroy mankind with nuclear bombs). Etc.

And if God only knows it because it is true, how does that show foreknowledge. How can something be true before it happens.

Truth is correspondence with reality. What makes a future tensed statement true is that it corresponds to the way thing really will happen. If, in the future, Ethel boils peas, then it is already true that Ethel will boil peas in the future. If she happens to choose otherwise, then it will have been true all along that she will not boil peas in the future.

Also, I'm not necessarily saying it is true only because god already know it. Nor am I saying we do not have free will. I am simply saying God knows the future, therefore he knows who is going to hell and who isn't already. So some of us are destined to go to hell. But not by his knowing it, by the choices that get us there. But like you said he knows what choices we will make.

What do you mean by "destined"? Because if you mean "determined," then you're contradicting yourself since you said, "Nor am I saying we do not have free will." If you simply mean that there's a truth value to the question of whether we're going to hell or not, then you are in agreement with me.

You've agreed already that God's knowing our future is not the same as God's causing our future. If God's knowing our future doesn't have any causal influence over our future choices, then are choices are not determined by God's foreknowledge. God's foreknowledge would then be irrelevant to the question of whether we have free will or not. That means we can have free will even if God knows everything we will ever choose.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
phantom
Posts: 6,774
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/28/2012 1:52:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/27/2012 11:55:59 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 10/27/2012 10:50:10 PM, Df0512 wrote:
Simple question, maybe: The bible tells us visa knows all. If that is true doesn't that mean ur knows wether or not we aol go to hell? And of he knows that doesn't that mean that some of us are just destined to go to hell? What chance do any of us really have if thats true? Let me knw

Visa doesn't know all. Visa is just a credit card. It has no knowledge whatsoever, although it does have information on that little magnetic strip.

It is true that God knows who will go to hell. But it doesn't follow that you're determined to go to hell. At least not for that reason.

Look at it this way. By the law of excluded middle, one of the follow statements must be true:

1. You will go to hell.

or

2. You will not go to hell.

Whether anybody knows which of these statements are true or not, one of them is nevertheless true. Suppose it's 1. What makes 1 true is what will in fact happen in the future. If, in the future, you go to hell, then 1 was true all along, even if nobody knew it. And if, in the future, you will not to go hell, then 2 was true all along even if nobody knew it.

So one of those two statements is true even if nobody knows it. But it being true isn't what causes you to go to hell or not go to hell. On the contrary, it's the other way around. You going to hell or not in the future is what grounds the truth of one of those statements.

And if somebody comes along who happens to know which of the statements is true, that has no affect whatsoever on you.

I blogged about this issue here: http://philochristos.blogspot.com...

Thank you for putting it down well what I'm always trying to say to people.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Df0512
Posts: 966
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/28/2012 3:14:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Once again, it sounds like you are limiting Gods knowledge to human capabilities. You are explaining how knowledge works as we know it, not god. The bible literally says god know past present and future. Which means he can tell the future. I don't know what you don't understand about that phrase. It means he already knows something is going to happen before it happens.

"For example, God can't know the colour of my girlfriend's hair for the simple reason that I don't have a girlfriend. Since I don't have a girlfriend, there's no truth to the question of what her hair colour is, so there's nothing for God to know"

Your example here doesn't seem to serve the purpose you are intending it to. Knowing the colour of your girlfriends hair isn't foreknowledge. That doesn't really refer to future tense but to present. Knowing what colour your girlfriend will have is. That is something he can tell us. If he does tell you you girlfriend will have red hair, the choices you make in life will inevitably lead to to have a girlfriend with red hair. But we don't know that, so it isn't true.

"The only way God can know that Ethel will boil peas tomorrow is if it's true that Ethel will boil peas tomorrow. He can't know that Ethel will boil peas tomorrow if it's not even true that Ethel will boil peas tomorrow."

If it is true that Ethel does boil peas tomorrow it is true to him not to us. We do not know the future. God does. So he won't say she will boil peas tomorrow if it isn't true. Why would he. He already knows what she will choose to do. It doesn't make her decision true now. It only becomes true when she makes that decision. The point is that he already know what choice she will make before she makes it.

"Statements like "Ethel will boil peas tomorrow" are neither true nor false since the event hasn't happened yet."

"If, in the future, Ethel boils peas, then it is already true that Ethel will boil peas in the future. If she happens to choose otherwise, then it will have been true all along that she will not boil peas in the future."

These statements seem to be contradictory. If the statement ""Ethel will boil peas tomorrow" is neither true nor false, how can the statement be true now even if she decides to. That would make the statement true. However,it can not already be true that Ethel will boil peas tomorrow if she hasn't. It only becomes true if she does. But that is only true to humans because we do not know the future.

Today is Sunday and Ethel will make peas Monday. God already knows this. But, how can it be true if it hasn't already happened.

"That's a great question, and I think that's what this whole debate boils down to"


First of all, you've already answered this question. "If, in the future, Ethel boils peas, then it is already true that Ethel will boil peas in the future" Your statement implies that it is true even though it hasn't happened yet.

This is not the debate. Things, as we know it, can not be true if they haven't already happened. Whether or not future tensed statements have truth value is irrelevant. God already knows whether or not she will make peas before it happens. So it becomes true to us when she makes her decision. We can then say that God already knew that would happen because the bible says he knows past present and future.

"There's also the argument from consequences"

Again I say this is a human limitation, and I do mean human limitation, God should not experience. We wouldn't know the future of man kind because we do not know if someone will chose to destroy it. We only know if we as individuals will hose to. God knows whether or not mankind will be destroyed because he knows whether or not someone will chose to destroy it. Or whether or not a meteor will grill us all. He knows past present and future.

"Truth is correspondence with reality."

I agree with you here but God does not exist in our reality. Better yet, the bible teaches that his omnipotence allows him to exist in all realities. Including the ones where our future decisions have already been made. We only exist in the reality we are present in therefore truth is only correspondence to the present.

What do you mean by "destined"? Because if you mean "determined," then you're contradicting yourself since you said, "Nor am I saying we do not have free will."

There should have been a question mark after this sentence: So some of us are destined to go to hell. If you look back at the topic that is indeed the question I am trying to get answered. And when I say "destined" I mean "destined". As in, no matter what choices I make to avoid making peas tomorrow, I will not matter what make peas tomorrow. Being determined would imply that there is a chose in the matter.

"You've agreed already that God's knowing our future is not the same as God's causing our future. If God's knowing our future doesn't have any causal influence over our future choices, then are choices are not determined by God's foreknowledge"

The question isn't whether or not God knowing something make it true. That's not what the bible says. It says he knows past present and future. The question is: If god already knows that I'm going to hell, what is the point of him telling us to follow his word so that I don't go to hell?
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/28/2012 3:47:37 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
df052, there is such a tangled web of confusion in your response to me that unraveling it will require more energy and motivation than I have. I will have to live with these confusions not being straightened out for now.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Df0512
Posts: 966
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/28/2012 4:06:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/28/2012 3:47:37 PM, philochristos wrote:
df052, there is such a tangled web of confusion in your response to me that unraveling it will require more energy and motivation than I have. I will have to live with these confusions not being straightened out for now.

Are you kidding me. I you last response was just as confusing as mine yet I took the time to read and answer every disagreement you threw at me. It is very clear actually, bold is your response, not bold is mine. If you dont want to continue fine but dont tell me that it confuses you when I am only responding to things you are saying. Thats weak. We all know your smarter than that so dont insult me by saying its confusing. I enjoy a good debate. That is all.
Df0512
Posts: 966
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/28/2012 4:08:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/28/2012 4:06:29 PM, Df0512 wrote:
At 10/28/2012 3:47:37 PM, philochristos wrote:
df052, there is such a tangled web of confusion in your response to me that unraveling it will require more energy and motivation than I have. I will have to live with these confusions not being straightened out for now.

Are you kidding me. I you last response was just as confusing as mine yet I took the time to read and answer every disagreement you threw at me. It is very clear actually, bold is your response, not bold is mine. If you dont want to continue fine but dont tell me that it confuses you when I am only responding to things you are saying. Thats weak. We all know your smarter than that so dont insult me by saying its confusing. I enjoy a good debate. That is all.

Your last response*
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/28/2012 4:26:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Df0512,

I didn't mean to insult you, and I didn't mean I was confused. I just mean that there's a lot of misunderstanding going on between us, and to lazy to straighten it all out. I've already gone back and forth a couple of times. We've got to end the conversation eventually, don't we?
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Df0512
Posts: 966
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/28/2012 6:37:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/28/2012 4:26:46 PM, philochristos wrote:
Df0512,

I didn't mean to insult you, and I didn't mean I was confused. I just mean that there's a lot of misunderstanding going on between us, and to lazy to straighten it all out. I've already gone back and forth a couple of times. We've got to end the conversation eventually, don't we?

What ever you say man. Life goes on either way.
DanielChristopherBlowes
Posts: 1,066
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/30/2012 3:58:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/27/2012 10:50:10 PM, Df0512 wrote:
Simple question, maybe: The bible tells us visa knows all. If that is true doesn't that mean ur knows wether or not we aol go to hell? And of he knows that doesn't that mean that some of us are just destined to go to hell? What chance do any of us really have if thats true? Let me knw

It's not only about your choices, but how us 'elect' treat you; if we see our election as unearned and undeserved (grace and mercy) then we will extend that to grace to others and God will move and we will reap a harvest.
Everyone on the side of Truth listens to Me. (Jesus Christ)
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/30/2012 5:42:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/27/2012 10:50:10 PM, Df0512 wrote:
Simple question, maybe: The bible tells us visa knows all. If that is true doesn't that mean ur knows wether or not we aol go to hell? And of he knows that doesn't that mean that some of us are just destined to go to hell? What chance do any of us really have if thats true? Let me knw

Finally, someone who has an ounce of honesty. Whether or not you agree with predestination, this is clearly portrayed in the bible.

Some are predestined to be saved, and some to be condemned.

No one has a chance. Either you are secured in God's love (unwillingly and undeservingly) or you were never included, and were never intended to be.

Hearing something like this a person has 2 possible reactions:

1) Well then f*ck it I'm going to hell

-or-

2) How do I know which one I am?
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
DanielChristopherBlowes
Posts: 1,066
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/30/2012 5:44:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/30/2012 5:42:40 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 10/27/2012 10:50:10 PM, Df0512 wrote:
Simple question, maybe: The bible tells us visa knows all. If that is true doesn't that mean ur knows wether or not we aol go to hell? And of he knows that doesn't that mean that some of us are just destined to go to hell? What chance do any of us really have if thats true? Let me knw

Finally, someone who has an ounce of honesty. Whether or not you agree with predestination, this is clearly portrayed in the bible.

Some are predestined to be saved, and some to be condemned.

No one has a chance. Either you are secured in God's love (unwillingly and undeservingly) or you were never included, and were never intended to be.

Hearing something like this a person has 2 possible reactions:

1) Well then f*ck it I'm going to hell

-or-

2) How do I know which one I am?

Or, BOTH are happening at the same time and our finite minds cannot comprehend how..
Everyone on the side of Truth listens to Me. (Jesus Christ)
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/30/2012 5:56:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/30/2012 5:44:32 PM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 10/30/2012 5:42:40 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 10/27/2012 10:50:10 PM, Df0512 wrote:
Simple question, maybe: The bible tells us visa knows all. If that is true doesn't that mean ur knows wether or not we aol go to hell? And of he knows that doesn't that mean that some of us are just destined to go to hell? What chance do any of us really have if thats true? Let me knw

Finally, someone who has an ounce of honesty. Whether or not you agree with predestination, this is clearly portrayed in the bible.

Some are predestined to be saved, and some to be condemned.

No one has a chance. Either you are secured in God's love (unwillingly and undeservingly) or you were never included, and were never intended to be.

Hearing something like this a person has 2 possible reactions:

1) Well then f*ck it I'm going to hell

-or-

2) How do I know which one I am?

Or, BOTH are happening at the same time and our finite minds cannot comprehend how..


Lol, so true.

I would say it happens simultaneously to the elect. Our sinful human nature (ourselves) is thinking a form of (1), and the holy spirit is steadily overpowering (1) in favor of (2).
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
DanielChristopherBlowes
Posts: 1,066
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/30/2012 5:59:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/30/2012 5:56:03 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 10/30/2012 5:44:32 PM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 10/30/2012 5:42:40 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 10/27/2012 10:50:10 PM, Df0512 wrote:
Simple question, maybe: The bible tells us visa knows all. If that is true doesn't that mean ur knows wether or not we aol go to hell? And of he knows that doesn't that mean that some of us are just destined to go to hell? What chance do any of us really have if thats true? Let me knw

Finally, someone who has an ounce of honesty. Whether or not you agree with predestination, this is clearly portrayed in the bible.

Some are predestined to be saved, and some to be condemned.

No one has a chance. Either you are secured in God's love (unwillingly and undeservingly) or you were never included, and were never intended to be.

Hearing something like this a person has 2 possible reactions:

1) Well then f*ck it I'm going to hell

-or-

2) How do I know which one I am?

Or, BOTH are happening at the same time and our finite minds cannot comprehend how..


Lol, so true.

I would say it happens simultaneously to the elect. Our sinful human nature (ourselves) is thinking a form of (1), and the holy spirit is steadily overpowering (1) in favor of (2).

I think courage plays a large part; we know the good we should do or say, but refrain if it will cost us. (Friends, popularity in the Church etc)
Everyone on the side of Truth listens to Me. (Jesus Christ)
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/30/2012 6:10:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/30/2012 5:59:58 PM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 10/30/2012 5:56:03 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 10/30/2012 5:44:32 PM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 10/30/2012 5:42:40 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 10/27/2012 10:50:10 PM, Df0512 wrote:
Simple question, maybe: The bible tells us visa knows all. If that is true doesn't that mean ur knows wether or not we aol go to hell? And of he knows that doesn't that mean that some of us are just destined to go to hell? What chance do any of us really have if thats true? Let me knw

Finally, someone who has an ounce of honesty. Whether or not you agree with predestination, this is clearly portrayed in the bible.

Some are predestined to be saved, and some to be condemned.

No one has a chance. Either you are secured in God's love (unwillingly and undeservingly) or you were never included, and were never intended to be.

Hearing something like this a person has 2 possible reactions:

1) Well then f*ck it I'm going to hell

-or-

2) How do I know which one I am?

Or, BOTH are happening at the same time and our finite minds cannot comprehend how..


Lol, so true.

I would say it happens simultaneously to the elect. Our sinful human nature (ourselves) is thinking a form of (1), and the holy spirit is steadily overpowering (1) in favor of (2).

I think courage plays a large part; we know the good we should do or say, but refrain if it will cost us. (Friends, popularity in the Church etc)


I think God plays the part.

We do what we should and shouldn't do, but like Paul explained in Romans 7: we cannot carry it out.

18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do"this I keep on doing.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/30/2012 6:13:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/30/2012 6:10:47 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
I think God plays the part.

We know what we should and shouldn't do, but like Paul explained in Romans 7: we cannot carry it out.

18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do"this I keep on doing.


fix'd
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.