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The 'Rapture' false doctrine...

RounCole
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10/28/2012 11:31:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
First of all, I want to make clear that I am not talking about the 'catching up' im talking about the 'rapture' which is the notion that the 'catching up' will occur before the tribulation, so on so forth...

The main issue that spawned the notion of the 'rapture' is based on 1Thes 4:13-18 Which is...

[13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.]

Often when I have this discussion with people they will take 1Thes4:16-17 by themselves as the context for there argument, but to discern the full context of this passage you must read the entire paragraph in its fullness.

This letter, 1Thes, was written by Paul to the church in Thessalonia, "concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not" as the first verse says, the people in Thessalonia were distressed because loved ones were still dying, despite the fact that Jesus came to offer men eternal life...

While this passage does mention the return of Christ, that was not the immediate point of the passage, because scripture can be misconstrued and taken out of context so readily is why we have so much confusion in the church as a whole...

More to the point, I will refer to other passages that coincide with the meaning of the 16-17 snippet...

Mat24:29-31

[29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.]

Matthew 24 has to be my favorite passage in this debate, Mark13:24-27 mirrors this but is not exact, as we see in 29 it says "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" which says everything you need to know about this issue, but for the sake of argument I will go on...

1Thes4:16 [For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:]

Mat24:31 [And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.]

1Cor15:50 [In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.]

I have highlighted the points of interest, as we see in the wording these three passages appear to connect, the trumpet, trump of God, will sound, and the dead will be raised. I believe beyond reasonable doubt that these passages are connected in context because of the closeness of its wording, keep in mind that these are three different books with three different authors, as though it was a testimony of three witnesses, Paul, Matthew, and John.

As Mat24 plainly states, this happens after the tribulation, which coincides with Rev19:11-16, which is the second coming, and a point I would also like to stress is that Rev19 is the only place in the bible where Christ actually comes in the clouds, 1Thes4 mentions his coming in the clouds, but that is not the actual event, unless im wrong, the only place where it says in verbage that he comes in the clouds is Rev19...

And to help with any confusion, Rev16:15
[Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed [is] he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.]
Rev16 shows that he has still not come, it doesnt say that he came as a thief in the night, but that he comes as a thief, he has still not come because as I said already the only time that he comes is in Rev19 shortly to follow this passage...

A great point to also make in this regard is the marriage feast, as I have been told over and over by a multitude of people advocating the 'rapture' when it happens, we are all taken to the marriage feast which supposedly lasts for seven years, while I dont see any scriptural reference that shows this, for the sake of argument lets assume this is true...

If the marriage feast begins at the beginning of the Tribulation and ends with Christs coming in the clouds, as seen in Rev19, then we have a problem...

Only those who attend the marriage feast of the lamb are a part of the pride, and subsequently a part of the church, so if anyone is 'left behind' in the Tribulation, they cannot obtain salvation during the Tribulation, which pretty well destroys the idea of 'Tribulation Saints'...

With this in mind, we would have contradictions in the line of prophecy...

Rev12:17 [And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.]

Rev13:7-10 [7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.]

Rev20:4 [And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.]

As we can see in the passages above, the beast will make war with the saints, if there really is a 'rapture' then the beast cannot make war with the 'rapture saints' because they are in heaven, and as I said before, we cant have 'tribulation saints' if the 'rapture' starts the marriage feast, and ends it before they could ever attend...

With all that said, I conclude that the 'rapture' is not scriptural, and cannot, will not happen.

Rather, the church will be taken into the wilderness for three and a half years, as seen in Rev12:6 [And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.]
Rev12:14 [And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.]

I know for a fact that the woman is the church, because only saints can keep the testimony of Jesus Christ, Jews cannot keep the testimony of Jesus Christ, because they would become saints...

Rev12:17 [And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.]

This is wha
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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10/28/2012 11:34:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/28/2012 11:31:58 PM, RounCole wrote:
First of all, I want to make clear that I am not talking about the 'catching up' im talking about the 'rapture' which is the notion that the 'catching up' will occur before the tribulation, so on so forth...

Maybe you're using the wrong word, then, because some people believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, some believe in a mid-tribulation rapture, some believe in a pre-wrath rapture, and some believe in a post-tribulation rapture. If you believe in a "catching up," but only deny that it happens before the tribulation, then you're not denying the rapture. You're just denying the pre-tribulation rapture.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Double_Helix46
Posts: 466
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10/29/2012 12:16:58 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I believe that the rapture takes place during the opening of the sixth seal and after(in the midst of the tribulaion) the start of the tribulation. Why? Because after the sixth seal is opened at the end of the sixth chapter of Revelations, many things happen. We see in the seven chapter after the 144,000 are sealed this:

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, (this is the dead and living called up to Jesus), and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; (we know this because they have white robes).
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and to the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshiped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honor, and power, and might, beto our God for ever and ever. Amen. 13 And one of the elders answered, saying to me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said to him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (here it tells us this), 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them to living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

So, the rapture is after the start of the tribulation, during it, before the wrath(trumpet judgements & bowl judgements). It can not be post tribulation either because the seventh seal has not opened yet.
Composer
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10/29/2012 4:24:08 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
The Story book rapture is more proven BS!

There was NO Historical biblical jebus and xtianities claims regarding it are 100% spurious and the various Story book gods are 100% impotent against moi!

Your Literal Saviour moi!
Double_Helix46
Posts: 466
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10/29/2012 4:40:59 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/29/2012 4:24:08 AM, Composer wrote:
The Story book rapture is more proven BS!:
How can you prove or disprove it, it has not happened yet?

There was NO Historical biblical jebus:
Almost all historians would agree that Jesus existed. Though I still for the life of me can not figure who you are talking about, who is Jebus?
and xtianities:
Who and what is that?
moi!:
Are you asian?

Your Literal Saviour moi!:
Are you just another Messiah want to be?
Composer
Posts: 5,858
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10/29/2012 4:59:43 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/29/2012 4:40:59 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
At 10/29/2012 4:24:08 AM, Composer wrote:
The Story book rapture is more proven BS!:

At 10/29/2012 4:40:59 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
How can you prove or disprove it, it has not happened yet?

Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: Because the bible is 100% man concocted and biblical jebus a Historical Myth!

At 10/29/2012 4:40:59 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
Almost all historians would agree that Jesus existed.

Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: That is also an incorrect statement! I am currently in private discussion with smithereens who made that same claim, he is now licking his fatal wounds I inflicted!

Perhaps you could provide what you think you have so I can correct you also!

At 10/29/2012 4:40:59 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
Though I still for the life of me can not figure who you are talking about, who is Jebus?

Story book mythical character also goes by the name jesus!

At 10/29/2012 4:40:59 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
and xtianities:
Who and what is that?
xtianitie is an alternative title for the Pagan - Greek metaphysical based Johnny Come Lately False Story book jebus Cult!

&

moi!:

From Middle French meaning ' me '.

At 10/29/2012 4:40:59 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
Are you asian?

Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: No I'm a successful Cult buster though!

Your Literal Saviour moi!:

At 10/29/2012 4:40:59 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
Are you just another Messiah want to be?

Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: No I'm a successful Cult buster though and I do successfully lead others to the Truth as opposed to Mythical Story book biblical jebus the Story book proven fraud!

Your Saviour moi!
Double_Helix46
Posts: 466
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10/29/2012 5:21:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/29/2012 4:59:43 AM, Composer wrote:
Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: Because the bible is 100% man concocted and biblical jebus a Historical Myth!:
Of course you can provide evidence of that fact?
Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: That is also an incorrect statement! I am currently in private discussion with smithereens who made that same claim, he is now licking his fatal wounds I inflicted!
Perhaps you could provide what you think you have so I can correct you also!:
Really, I seen that He smashed you and handily I mite add but here you go:
http://www.quora.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Story book mythical character also goes by the name jesus!:
I would like evidence that He ever went by Jebus?
xtianitie is an alternative title for the Pagan - Greek metaphysical based Johnny Come Lately False Story book jebus Cult!:
Who's? Your self-made concoction?
No I'm a successful Cult buster though!:
Really where is that evidence also?
Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: No I'm a successful Cult buster though and I do successfully lead others to the Truth as opposed to Mythical Story book biblical jebus the Story book proven fraud!:
You like to make aseertions huh? Where is your followers and proven frauds? I just see lip service.
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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10/29/2012 7:21:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Oh please, the so called Rapture is not Biblically based, through 1800 years of the Bible being the most studied document of all time, nobody ever found any indication that a Rapture would occur, it just isn"t in the Bible.

This contrived Rapture movement began in the 1830s when John Darby twisted the rich symbolism of John's Revelation into a new invention called the Rapture, it gained momentum in the early 1900s when a charlatan named Cyrus Scofield became rich by adding it to a rewritten Bible he published in 1909.

At its best:

It is the epitome of the self-absorbed "me" generation running amok in their self-fixation. Only the astoundingly self-centered could think that when Zechariah, Zephaniah, Hosea, Amos, and Isaiah were writing in the 7th and 8th century BC, and John was writing in the first century, that they were all writing about "us" and our generation.

Only the unpardonably arrogant could think that the great Jewish Prophets weren't writing about their people, times, troubles, and cultures, but instead, that they were all writing about us and our times, troubles, and culture.

"It's all about me, the entire history of mankind is just the background to my own self drama, our religious history was nothing but the part of the drama leading up to me, I am the point of it all, history was just the set up, and I am the main act. History is about me, the Bible is about me, everything is about me me me."

These Rapture people aren't talking about the Bible; they are just using it to talk about themselves some more. At its best it is the idolatry of the self-absorbed, simply obsessed with itself.

At its worst:

It translates into a guide for attitude and action that is self defeating, polarizing, harmful to our well being, and loaded with potential for disaster.

It has spawned a growing mass of people who think that any attempts to reform, all calming statements, all efforts anyone might make towards world peace or attempts at making the world a better place, are not just misguided, but they are Satanic because they would in effect be efforts to put off Armageddon and delay the Second Coming. These Millennial Extremists are uncompromising because they have exalted themselves through a self proclaimed divine mandate that they must bring about God's will, and that makes them very dangerous. They are becoming astoundingly well organized, extremely politically active, and they vote.

So here we stand, our technological "achievements" have resulted in a situation where life on this planet could come to a cataclysmic ending in fiery destruction at the pressing of a button. A well organized and growing mass of people who equate the fulfillment of the earth and the ultimate good with the fiery destruction of the earth and who appear to be obsessed with getting one of their own access to that button have become one of the most powerful voting blocks in the history of this country, and may God help us if they ever come to power.

The Anti-Christ:

If one accepts that John's Revelation was a prophetic vision, then there is the subject of its symbolism and the implied Anti-Christ, and the question becomes "Was John's vision a self-fulfilling prophecy?" Christ lived, taught, and symbolized humility, equality, universal love, tolerance, and unity. He vehemently challenged legalism, intolerance, and exclusion and was put to death for it. Accepting John's revelation, one must wonder if this Millennial Extremist contrived image of Christ as exclusive, intolerant, judgmental, and divisive is not, in fact, the Anti-Christ of John's vision.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Double_Helix46
Posts: 466
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10/29/2012 7:28:35 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/29/2012 7:21:12 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
Oh please, the so called Rapture is not Biblically based.:
Really? Hmm..guess this means nothing.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and to the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshiped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honor, and power, and might, beto our God for ever and ever. Amen. 13 And one of the elders answered, saying to me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said to him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (here it tells us this), 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them to living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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10/29/2012 7:30:26 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/29/2012 7:21:12 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
Oh please, the so called Rapture is not Biblically based, through 1800 years of the Bible being the most studied document of all time, nobody ever found any indication that a Rapture would occur, it just isn"t in the Bible.

Absolutely correct.


This contrived Rapture movement began in the 1830s when John Darby twisted the rich symbolism of John's Revelation into a new invention called the Rapture, it gained momentum in the early 1900s when a charlatan named Cyrus Scofield became rich by adding it to a rewritten Bible he published in 1909.

Bingo. I have a Scofield Bible. It's a KJV with his commentary, actually, i. e. it's just a regular KJV Bible except for his speculative commentaries.

At its best:

It is the epitome of the self-absorbed "me" generation running amok in their self-fixation. Only the astoundingly self-centered could think that when Zechariah, Zephaniah, Hosea, Amos, and Isaiah were writing in the 7th and 8th century BC, and John was writing in the first century, that they were all writing about "us" and our generation.

Only the unpardonably arrogant could think that the great Jewish Prophets weren't writing about their people, times, troubles, and cultures, but instead, that they were all writing about us and our times, troubles, and culture.

"It's all about me, the entire history of mankind is just the background to my own self drama, our religious history was nothing but the part of the drama leading up to me, I am the point of it all, history was just the set up, and I am the main act. History is about me, the Bible is about me, everything is about me me me."

These Rapture people aren't talking about the Bible; they are just using it to talk about themselves some more. At its best it is the idolatry of the self-absorbed, simply obsessed with itself.

Dunno about all that. It's a denial that the Jesus Christ ever set up His kingdom, though, and it implies prophetic failure.

At its worst:

It translates into a guide for attitude and action that is self defeating, polarizing, harmful to our well being, and loaded with potential for disaster.

It has spawned a growing mass of people who think that any attempts to reform, all calming statements, all efforts anyone might make towards world peace or attempts at making the world a better place, are not just misguided, but they are Satanic because they would in effect be efforts to put off Armageddon and delay the Second Coming. These Millennial Extremists are uncompromising because they have exalted themselves through a self proclaimed divine mandate that they must bring about God's will, and that makes them very dangerous. They are becoming astoundingly well organized, extremely politically active, and they vote.

Well, premilleniallism and all its component parts, including its presumptions, does (I think) affect how people vote.



The Anti-Christ:

If one accepts that John's Revelation was a prophetic vision, then there is the subject of its symbolism and the implied Anti-Christ, and the question becomes "Was John's vision a self-fulfilling prophecy?" Christ lived, taught, and symbolized humility, equality, universal love, tolerance, and unity. He vehemently challenged legalism, intolerance, and exclusion and was put to death for it. Accepting John's revelation, one must wonder if this Millennial Extremist contrived image of Christ as exclusive, intolerant, judgmental, and divisive is not, in fact, the Anti-Christ of John's vision.

Doubt it. I'd guess the early church understood Revelation much better than we do, as a whole. I think the antiChrist was the Roman emperor-gods such as Nero., as the predominant persecutor of Christians became the Roman government rather than the Jews.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Sidewalker
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10/29/2012 8:11:57 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/29/2012 7:28:35 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
At 10/29/2012 7:21:12 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
Oh please, the so called Rapture is not Biblically based.:
Really? Hmm..guess this means nothing.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and to the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshiped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honor, and power, and might, beto our God for ever and ever. Amen. 13 And one of the elders answered, saying to me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said to him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (here it tells us this), 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them to living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

The author of Revelations was writing about a dream he had, a prophetic vision perhaps, but never the less, it was a dream. Dreams speak to us, no doubt, but they speak to us in imagery, they cannot be translated literally. Dreams speak to us from the unconscious in images, frightening ones tend to provide warnings and they suggest action to facilitate the warning. Such morbid and literal dream interpretation is counter productive and diametrically opposed to reason and to the spirit of the Bible.

The millenialist interpretation of this particular dream says that if anyone were to provide the answers to our problems then he is the Antichrist, if anyone can bring peace between the Arabs and Jews, then he is the Antichrist, if someone were to try to make the world a better place, then he is the Antichrist.

If Christ were to arrive today I'd like to think that he could help us accomplish such tasks, that He would bring peace and understanding, and He would make the world a better place. But this contrived Rapture movement would certainly mistake him for the Antichrist and try to crucify him again.

It's nonsense.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
annanicole
Posts: 19,787
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10/29/2012 8:39:16 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I copied and pasted the following comment from the "Opinions" section. This kind of stuff is what I was referring to:

"Keep an eye on Israel. The final showdown will take place there. The enemy will go after Israel and the Jews, try to divide the land (we see this taking place already as seen on the news), Israel will sign a peace treaty with many for 7 years. Half way through the peace treaty will be broken. These things are already happening as we speak (type). If you haven't accepted Jesus then now is the time to do it. Call out to Jesus to save you: http://www.gotquestions.org...;

What if our senators and representatives believed that nonsense? I bet a few do - in some fashion. What if the president paid attention to these speculative theories and molded foreign policy to suit his theories?
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Double_Helix46
Posts: 466
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10/29/2012 9:23:08 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/29/2012 8:11:57 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
The millenialist interpretation of this particular dream says that if anyone were to provide the answers to our problems then he is the Antichrist, if anyone can bring peace between the Arabs and Jews, then he is the Antichrist, if someone were to try to make the world a better place, then he is the Antichrist.

If Christ were to arrive today I'd like to think that he could help us accomplish such tasks, that He would bring peace and understanding, and He would make the world a better place. But this contrived Rapture movement would certainly mistake him for the Antichrist and try to crucify him again.

It's nonsense.:

No your interpretation of the rapture and millenialist is nonsense.
Double_Helix46
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10/29/2012 9:25:20 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/29/2012 8:39:16 AM, annanicole wrote:
What if we took the Bible seriously and believed what it says that would be nice. Instead of just playing it off.
annanicole
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10/29/2012 9:47:51 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/29/2012 9:25:20 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
At 10/29/2012 8:39:16 AM, annanicole wrote:
What if we took the Bible seriously and believed what it says that would be nice. Instead of just playing it off.

Oh, I do: when the very first verse of the Apocolypse says, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John", I believe it.

I don't dream up a dozen lousy excuses as to why "shortly come to pass" means 1,950 or so years and counting ... and counting ... counting.

And when John said, a few verses later, "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos ... ", I believe that John really was:

(1) Their companion in tribulation, i. e. the tribulation was going on
(2) Their companion in the kingdom, i. e. the kingdom existed
(3) On the isle of Patmos

But you watch ... if this goes like it usually does ... you'll see some professed Christian just flat-out deny it. 100% of it. They'll say .... ummmm .....

(1) John was no one's companion in any kingdom of Jesus Christ because it hasn't even come yet
(2) "Shortly come to pass" means at least 1,950 years ... and counting

Heck, before any type or figure or metaphoric or apocolyptic phraseology is used, John sets the stage. But they'll deny it. Just watch.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Sidewalker
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10/29/2012 9:58:55 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/29/2012 9:25:20 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
At 10/29/2012 8:39:16 AM, annanicole wrote:
What if we took the Bible seriously and believed what it says that would be nice. Instead of just playing it off.

Yes, that would be nice, but instead, many have put thier faith into a morally banrupt charlatan named Cyrus Scofield.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Double_Helix46
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10/29/2012 10:14:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/29/2012 9:47:51 AM, annanicole wrote:
Oh, I do: when the very first verse of the Apocolypse says, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John", I believe it.:
There are ways of explaining the term "shortly," that do not resort to the theories characteristic of radical preterism.

I don't dream up a dozen lousy excuses as to why "shortly come to pass" means 1,950 or so years and counting ... and counting ... counting.:
You must bear in mind that the perspective is sometimes foreshortened. In other words the word "shortly" may have a reference to His time not ours.

And when John said, a few verses later, "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos ... ", I believe that John really was:

(1) Their companion in tribulation, i. e. the tribulation was going on:
Yes it began before or during John's revelation.
(2) Their companion in the kingdom, i. e. the kingdom existed:
Are you suggesting that John was not writing to us today also? You notice He said patience? What was the patience for?
(3) On the isle of Patmos:
He was on the isle of Patmos and that was where He was writing.

But you watch ... if this goes like it usually does ... you'll see some professed Christian just flat-out deny it. 100% of it. They'll say .... ummmm .....:
Deny what Revelations?

(2) "Shortly come to pass" means at least 1,950 years ... and counting:
And what evidence do you have otherwise?

Just how far do you believe Revelations has been fulfilled?
Double_Helix46
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10/29/2012 10:20:38 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/29/2012 9:58:55 AM, Sidewalker wrote:

Yes, that would be nice, but instead, many have put thier faith into a morally banrupt charlatan named Cyrus Scofield.:

Maybe so, Maybe so, but what evidence do you have that he is wrong?
Sidewalker
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10/29/2012 10:34:20 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/29/2012 10:20:38 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
At 10/29/2012 9:58:55 AM, Sidewalker wrote:

Yes, that would be nice, but instead, many have put thier faith into a morally banrupt charlatan named Cyrus Scofield.:

Maybe so, Maybe so, but what evidence do you have that he is wrong?

I don't need evidence to know it is wrong to worship a charlatan.

Scofield's Bible was not apout dispensation, it was about compensation, and the con man made a fortune off it.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Double_Helix46
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10/29/2012 10:35:54 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/29/2012 10:34:20 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
Maybe so, Maybe so, but what evidence do you have that he is wrong?

I don't need evidence to know it is wrong to worship a charlatan.:
Nice way to aviod the question.

Scofield's Bible was not apout dispensation, it was about compensation, and the con man made a fortune off it.:
Again, provide evidence that He is a con man.
annanicole
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10/29/2012 11:21:31 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/29/2012 10:14:15 AM, Double_Helix46 wrote:
At 10/29/2012 9:47:51 AM, annanicole wrote:
Oh, I do: when the very first verse of the Apocolypse says, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John", I believe it.:
There are ways of explaining the term "shortly," that do not resort to the theories characteristic of radical preterism.

LOL I do not have to dream up nor invent ways to explain away "shortly" nor do I have to resort to any radical preterism. I simply say "shortly" in v1 and "at hand" in v3 do not mean 1,950 years. But you watch, you'll see professed Christians flat-out deny the ordinary usage of the words.

"Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand."

I don't dream up a dozen lousy excuses as to why "shortly come to pass" means 1,950 or so years and counting ... and counting ... counting.:
You must bear in mind that the perspective is sometimes foreshortened. In other words the word "shortly" may have a reference to His time not ours.

No, I do not think God was writing to Himself using words like "shortly" and "at hand" in a way that means 1,950+ years.

And when John said, a few verses later, "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos ... ", I believe that John really was:

(1) Their companion in tribulation, i. e. the tribulation was going on:
Yes it began before or during John's revelation.
(2) Their companion in the kingdom, i. e. the kingdom existed:
Are you suggesting that John was not writing to us today also? You notice He said patience? What was the patience for?

Sure. The book is of great comfort today to us just as it was to the 1st century Christians. Yes, I notice that he had perseverence and endurance: that's what was sustaining and to sustain John and his fellow Christians through the tribulation.

(3) On the isle of Patmos:
He was on the isle of Patmos and that was where He was writing.

But you watch ... if this goes like it usually does ... you'll see some professed Christian just flat-out deny it. 100% of it. They'll say .... ummmm .....:
Deny what Revelations?

Why, they'll march up and say that things which were to "shortly come to pass" because the time was "at hand" nearly 2,000 years ago haven't happened yet. That's what. Then they'll see every imaginable "sign of the times" and "beast" and "war" all down through the ages right up til today as something prophesied in Revelation.

(2) "Shortly come to pass" means at least 1,950 years ... and counting:
And what evidence do you have otherwise?

I have no evidence that "shortly come to pass" and "at hand" mean 1,950 years or so. None whatsoever. But if I wanted to proceed with speculations and theories, I'd darn near have to concoct some kinda explanation no matter how silly it sounded, then if I could slide it by, I could proceed with premillennial theories.

Just how far do you believe Revelations has been fulfilled?

Practically all of it, of course. All that remains is the 2nd coming of Christ, resurrection of the dead, and the judgement.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
philochristos
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10/29/2012 11:44:11 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/29/2012 4:24:08 AM, Composer wrote:
There was NO Historical biblical jebus and xtianities claims regarding it are 100% spurious and the various Story book gods are 100% impotent against moi!

It always surprises me how confident Jesus deniers are when the entire scholarly community is against them. It's worse than people who deny evolution, really, because there is a stronger consensus on the existence of Jesus among new testament scholars and historians than there is a consensus on evolution among biologists.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
philochristos
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10/29/2012 12:27:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/29/2012 11:21:31 AM, annanicole wrote:
LOL I do not have to dream up nor invent ways to explain away "shortly" nor do I have to resort to any radical preterism. I simply say "shortly" in v1 and "at hand" in v3 do not mean 1,950 years.

I don't know how you would avoid full preterism if you take every case in the New Testament of Jesus coming soon, shortly, etc. in the ordinary sense of the words. Here's a few examples:

Revelation 22:12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and my reward is with me, to render to every man according to what he has done."

1 Peter 1:4 "The end of all things is near."

James 5:8 "The coming of the Lord is near."

1 John 2:18 "Children, it is the last hour."

Etc. etc.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Double_Helix46
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10/29/2012 1:13:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/29/2012 11:21:31 AM, annanicole wrote:
LOL I do not have to dream up nor invent ways to explain away "shortly" nor do I have to resort to any radical preterism.:
You do not have to explain simply let the Bible do it. You have many verses that use the same words and they are still at hand today.

1 Peter 4:7, "But the end of all things is at hand:"
The end of all things still hasn't happened yet.

Joel 1:15, "Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come."
What destruction? Jesus was hundreds of years away.

Zephaniah 1:7, "Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the Lord is at hand: for the Lord hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests."
Again, Jesus was over a hundred years away.
I simply say "shortly" in v1 and "at hand" in v3 do not mean 1,950 years.:
How do you know that John was not saying this just to portions of Revelations and not the entire book. Indeed they seen some thngs but how do you know they seen them all? Shortly come to pass and At hand are not used the same way.
But you watch, you'll see professed Christians flat-out deny the ordinary usage of the words.:
Considering they are used multiple ways throughout the Bible it is naive on your part to claim they are just one way.

"Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.":
'At hand' is used in multiple ways throughout the Bible.

I don't dream up a dozen lousy excuses as to why "shortly come to pass" means 1,950 or so years and counting ... and counting ... counting.:
You should read revelations and make a determination of the entire book and how it has come to pass because anyone with honesty knows it is hard to claim it has. Shortly come to pass again has meant hundreds of years quite a few times in the Bible.
No, I do not think God was writing to Himself using words like "shortly" and "at hand" in a way that means 1,950+ years.:
Obviously He wasn't writing to himself, are you serious? He was writing to those in the spirit and of His kingdom which is eternal.
(2) "Shortly come to pass" means at least 1,950 years ... and counting:
And what evidence do you have otherwise?

Practically all of it, of course. All that remains is the 2nd coming of Christ, resurrection of the dead, and the judgement.:
Missing alot aren't you? What about the 3 months of people not dying? What about the 144,000 that are sealed? What about the verses I already posted up top about the multitudes with white robes ariving in heaven long before the judgement?
What about all the symbology in the book? Have they ahppened yet? You know Water and grass being burned up and stars falling to the earth.

So how many times does Jesus come back to you?
RounCole
Posts: 8
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10/29/2012 3:39:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
How am I supposed to reply with a quote if it keeps deleting the quote every time I push the button???

Anyway... Your just splitting hairs, the point I made here is that we are going to be in the Tribulation period, there is no magic teleport to the mothership to take us out of it...

Are we here to discuss the issue or BS on petty details?
RounCole
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10/29/2012 3:52:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Reply to: Double_Helix46
[QUOTE] I believe that the rapture takes place during the opening of the sixth seal and after(in the midst of the tribulaion) the start of the tribulation. Why? Because after the sixth seal is opened at the end of the sixth chapter of Revelations, many things happen. We see in the seven chapter after the 144,000 are sealed this:

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, (this is the dead and living called up to Jesus), and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; (we know this because they have white robes).
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and to the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshiped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honor, and power, and might, beto our God for ever and ever. Amen. 13 And one of the elders answered, saying to me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said to him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (here it tells us this), 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them to living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

So, the rapture is after the start of the tribulation, during it, before the wrath(trumpet judgements & bowl judgements). It can not be post tribulation either because the seventh seal has not opened yet. [END QUOTE]

If that is the 'rapture' then again, as I pointed out, explain Rev12-13, where it says that beast will make war with the saints, and Rev16 here he has still not come as a thief in the night, and Rev19, which is the only place where his coming in the clouds actually occurs in scripture...

Did you read my argument or just make your case out of ignorance?
RounCole
Posts: 8
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10/29/2012 3:57:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Replay to: Composer

Get the hell out my thread, we dont come here to get trolled, go away and be a child in the kiddy corner, we dont care about you and your stupidity...
annanicole
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10/29/2012 4:10:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/29/2012 3:57:14 PM, RounCole wrote:
Replay to: Composer

Get the hell out my thread, we dont come here to get trolled, go away and be a child in the kiddy corner, we dont care about you and your stupidity...

Composer is a well-known tard.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
RounCole
Posts: 8
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10/29/2012 4:37:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Reply to: annanicole

Every time I try to post with a quote it deletes the quote and everything, how do you put quotes in your posts?
Sidewalker
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10/29/2012 4:38:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 10/29/2012 11:44:11 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 10/29/2012 4:24:08 AM, Composer wrote:
There was NO Historical biblical jebus and xtianities claims regarding it are 100% spurious and the various Story book gods are 100% impotent against moi!

It always surprises me how confident Jesus deniers are when the entire scholarly community is against them. It's worse than people who deny evolution, really, because there is a stronger consensus on the existence of Jesus among new testament scholars and historians than there is a consensus on evolution among biologists.

I guess you didn't seen the posted signs...

PLEASE DON'T FEED THE TROLLS
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater