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argument against the historicity of Jesus

Smithereens
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11/2/2012 9:26:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
In my debate with Stephen Hawkins about Christ's existence, he mentioned thus: G.A.Wells notes, "the Greek does not have 'so-called' but 'him called Christ,' and this, so far from being non-Christian, is the exact wording of Mt. 1:16.
Apparently this is an argument against the account of Josephus. The problem is that I can't see how it attacks Josephus' records. S_H is offline atm, and will be for a while, so I figured I can get an answer faster from here.

Please do not give me any material to use, as the debate is still active, I merely want to know what S_H is trying to argue.
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philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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11/2/2012 11:56:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/2/2012 9:26:51 PM, Smithereens wrote:
In my debate with Stephen Hawkins about Christ's existence, he mentioned thus: G.A.Wells notes, "the Greek does not have 'so-called' but 'him called Christ,' and this, so far from being non-Christian, is the exact wording of Mt. 1:16.
Apparently this is an argument against the account of Josephus. The problem is that I can't see how it attacks Josephus' records. S_H is offline atm, and will be for a while, so I figured I can get an answer faster from here.

Please do not give me any material to use, as the debate is still active, I merely want to know what S_H is trying to argue.

I think what your opponent is suggesting is that since Josephus used the exact same wording as Matthew 1:16, that some Christian who was familiar with Matthew 1:16 probably inserted those words into Josephus. They didn't derive from Josephus himself.

Here is the passage in Greek text of Josephus' Antiquities:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu...

The phrase is:

Iesou ton legomenou Christou (sorry, it won't let me use a Greek font in here)
Jesus the one-called Christ

Here is the phrase in Matthew 1:16

http://www.greekbible.com...

Iesus ho legomenos Christos
Jesus the one-called Christ

So yeah, it is the same phrase. The question is whether the phrase is unique enough to say that whoever used it got it from Matthew 1:16. After all, if it's fairly common wording, then there's no reason to think Josephus borrowed it from anywhere.

For example, if I said, "His name was Bingo," and some book somewhere happened to have that same phrase, it wouldn't follow that I got that phrase from the book. That kind of wording is very common when one person is telling another person what somebody's name is.

But if I said, "And Bingo was his name-o," you'd recognize right away that I got that wording from a song, since that wording is peculiar.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
philochristos
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11/3/2012 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
What you should probably do is search "legomenou" in Josephus and see if it is a common phrase for Josephus. You should look for this pattern:

[name] the logomenou [title]

If that shows up at least a few times in Josephus in passages not dealing with Jesus, then you'd have a defeater to your opponent's argument.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Composer
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11/3/2012 12:35:08 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/2/2012 11:56:00 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 11/2/2012 9:26:51 PM, Smithereens wrote:
In my debate with Stephen Hawkins about Christ's existence, he mentioned thus: G.A.Wells notes, "the Greek does not have 'so-called' but 'him called Christ,' and this, so far from being non-Christian, is the exact wording of Mt. 1:16.
Apparently this is an argument against the account of Josephus. The problem is that I can't see how it attacks Josephus' records. S_H is offline atm, and will be for a while, so I figured I can get an answer faster from here.

Please do not give me any material to use, as the debate is still active, I merely want to know what S_H is trying to argue.

I think what your opponent is suggesting is that since Josephus used the exact same wording as Matthew 1:16, that some Christian who was familiar with Matthew 1:16 probably inserted those words into Josephus. They didn't derive from Josephus himself.

Here is the passage in Greek text of Josephus' Antiquities:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu...

The phrase is:

Iesou ton legomenou Christou (sorry, it won't let me use a Greek font in here)
Jesus the one-called Christ

Here is the phrase in Matthew 1:16

http://www.greekbible.com...

Iesus ho legomenos Christos
Jesus the one-called Christ

So yeah, it is the same phrase. The question is whether the phrase is unique enough to say that whoever used it got it from Matthew 1:16. After all, if it's fairly common wording, then there's no reason to think Josephus borrowed it from anywhere.

For example, if I said, "His name was Bingo," and some book somewhere happened to have that same phrase, it wouldn't follow that I got that phrase from the book. That kind of wording is very common when one person is telling another person what somebody's name is.

But if I said, "And Bingo was his name-o," you'd recognize right away that I got that wording from a song, since that wording is peculiar.

Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: When did Josephus become a xtian. Evidence please?

Your literal Saviour moi!
DanielChristopherBlowes
Posts: 1,066
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11/3/2012 1:12:24 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/3/2012 12:35:08 AM, Composer wrote:
At 11/2/2012 11:56:00 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 11/2/2012 9:26:51 PM, Smithereens wrote:
In my debate with Stephen Hawkins about Christ's existence, he mentioned thus: G.A.Wells notes, "the Greek does not have 'so-called' but 'him called Christ,' and this, so far from being non-Christian, is the exact wording of Mt. 1:16.
Apparently this is an argument against the account of Josephus. The problem is that I can't see how it attacks Josephus' records. S_H is offline atm, and will be for a while, so I figured I can get an answer faster from here.

Please do not give me any material to use, as the debate is still active, I merely want to know what S_H is trying to argue.

I think what your opponent is suggesting is that since Josephus used the exact same wording as Matthew 1:16, that some Christian who was familiar with Matthew 1:16 probably inserted those words into Josephus. They didn't derive from Josephus himself.

Here is the passage in Greek text of Josephus' Antiquities:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu...

The phrase is:

Iesou ton legomenou Christou (sorry, it won't let me use a Greek font in here)
Jesus the one-called Christ

Here is the phrase in Matthew 1:16

http://www.greekbible.com...

Iesus ho legomenos Christos
Jesus the one-called Christ

So yeah, it is the same phrase. The question is whether the phrase is unique enough to say that whoever used it got it from Matthew 1:16. After all, if it's fairly common wording, then there's no reason to think Josephus borrowed it from anywhere.

For example, if I said, "His name was Bingo," and some book somewhere happened to have that same phrase, it wouldn't follow that I got that phrase from the book. That kind of wording is very common when one person is telling another person what somebody's name is.

But if I said, "And Bingo was his name-o," you'd recognize right away that I got that wording from a song, since that wording is peculiar.

Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: When did Josephus become a xtian. Evidence please?

Your literal Saviour moi!

Last thing at night, first thing in the morning..
Everyone on the side of Truth listens to Me. (Jesus Christ)
Smithereens
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11/3/2012 3:41:36 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/2/2012 11:56:00 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 11/2/2012 9:26:51 PM, Smithereens wrote:
In my debate with Stephen Hawkins about Christ's existence, he mentioned thus: G.A.Wells notes, "the Greek does not have 'so-called' but 'him called Christ,' and this, so far from being non-Christian, is the exact wording of Mt. 1:16.
Apparently this is an argument against the account of Josephus. The problem is that I can't see how it attacks Josephus' records. S_H is offline atm, and will be for a while, so I figured I can get an answer faster from here.

Please do not give me any material to use, as the debate is still active, I merely want to know what S_H is trying to argue.

I think what your opponent is suggesting is that since Josephus used the exact same wording as Matthew 1:16, that some Christian who was familiar with Matthew 1:16 probably inserted those words into Josephus. They didn't derive from Josephus himself.

Here is the passage in Greek text of Josephus' Antiquities:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu...

The phrase is:

Iesou ton legomenou Christou (sorry, it won't let me use a Greek font in here)
Jesus the one-called Christ

Here is the phrase in Matthew 1:16

http://www.greekbible.com...

Iesus ho legomenos Christos
Jesus the one-called Christ

So yeah, it is the same phrase. The question is whether the phrase is unique enough to say that whoever used it got it from Matthew 1:16. After all, if it's fairly common wording, then there's no reason to think Josephus borrowed it from anywhere.

For example, if I said, "His name was Bingo," and some book somewhere happened to have that same phrase, it wouldn't follow that I got that phrase from the book. That kind of wording is very common when one person is telling another person what somebody's name is.

But if I said, "And Bingo was his name-o," you'd recognize right away that I got that wording from a song, since that wording is peculiar.

thank you
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Composer
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11/3/2012 6:14:39 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: When did Josephus become a xtian. Evidence please?

Your literal Saviour moi!

At 11/3/2012 1:12:24 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
Last thing at night, first thing in the morning..

I asked for evidence you dimwit, not more of your irrational drivel!

I suppose you got your drivel from one of your holy-ghost encounters LOL!

Your Literal vindicated Saviour moi!
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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11/3/2012 6:32:11 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/3/2012 6:14:39 AM, Composer wrote:
Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: When did Josephus become a xtian. Evidence please?

Your literal Saviour moi!

At 11/3/2012 1:12:24 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
Last thing at night, first thing in the morning..

I asked for evidence you dimwit, not more of your irrational drivel!

I suppose you got your drivel from one of your holy-ghost encounters LOL!

If you want to talk about dimwits, you should probably note that no one ever claimed Josephus was a Christian.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
Sidewalker
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11/3/2012 7:04:00 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/3/2012 6:32:11 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 11/3/2012 6:14:39 AM, Composer wrote:
Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: When did Josephus become a xtian. Evidence please?

Your literal Saviour moi!

At 11/3/2012 1:12:24 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
Last thing at night, first thing in the morning..

I asked for evidence you dimwit, not more of your irrational drivel!

I suppose you got your drivel from one of your holy-ghost encounters LOL!

If you want to talk about dimwits, you should probably note that no one ever claimed Josephus was a Christian.

You should be careful that you don't offend people AlwaysMoreThanYou, calling Composer a dimwit is an insult to dimwits everywhere.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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11/3/2012 7:06:05 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/3/2012 7:04:00 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 11/3/2012 6:32:11 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 11/3/2012 6:14:39 AM, Composer wrote:
Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: When did Josephus become a xtian. Evidence please?

Your literal Saviour moi!

At 11/3/2012 1:12:24 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
Last thing at night, first thing in the morning..

I asked for evidence you dimwit, not more of your irrational drivel!

I suppose you got your drivel from one of your holy-ghost encounters LOL!

If you want to talk about dimwits, you should probably note that no one ever claimed Josephus was a Christian.

You should be careful that you don't offend people AlwaysMoreThanYou, calling Composer a dimwit is an insult to dimwits everywhere.

I'm sorry, dimwits.

As far as light goes, Composer isn't dim, he's pitch black.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
Composer
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11/3/2012 7:09:49 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/3/2012 6:32:11 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 11/3/2012 6:14:39 AM, Composer wrote:
Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: When did Josephus become a xtian. Evidence please?

Your literal Saviour moi!

At 11/3/2012 1:12:24 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
Last thing at night, first thing in the morning..

I asked for evidence you dimwit, not more of your irrational drivel!

I suppose you got your drivel from one of your holy-ghost encounters LOL!

If you want to talk about dimwits, you should probably note that no one ever claimed Josephus was a Christian.

Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: The points of course escape dimwits like YOU!

The various claims are that Josephus wrote about a miracle working character called jebus, those claims based upon those claiming to be its followers & calling themselves xtians, and so convinced by what these xtian followers told him, in reality Josephus didn't believe a scrap of it and remained a faithful Jew and hence rejected xtianity and their claims, LOL!

Your literal Saviour moi!
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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11/3/2012 7:13:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/3/2012 7:09:49 AM, Composer wrote:
Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: The points of course escape dimwits like YOU!

The various claims are that Josephus wrote about a miracle working character called jebus, those claims based upon those claiming to be its followers & calling themselves xtians, and so convinced by what these xtian followers told him, in reality Josephus didn't believe a scrap of it and remained a faithful Jew and hence rejected xtianity and their claims, LOL!

And still, you've failed to show that anyone ever claimed Josephus was a Christian, because of course no one did.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
TheAntidoter
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11/3/2012 7:17:37 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/3/2012 6:14:39 AM, Composer wrote:
Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: When did Josephus become a xtian. Evidence please?

Your literal Saviour moi!

At 11/3/2012 1:12:24 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
Last thing at night, first thing in the morning..

I asked for evidence you dimwit, not more of your irrational drivel!

I suppose you got your drivel from one of your holy-ghost encounters LOL!

Your Literal vindicated Saviour moi!

Calling him a dimwit will not solve your dilemma. And wild speculation does not hold a candle to actually, you know ASKING HIM! Think man!
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TheAntidoter
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11/3/2012 7:19:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/3/2012 7:09:49 AM, Composer wrote:
At 11/3/2012 6:32:11 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 11/3/2012 6:14:39 AM, Composer wrote:
Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: When did Josephus become a xtian. Evidence please?

Your literal Saviour moi!

At 11/3/2012 1:12:24 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
Last thing at night, first thing in the morning..

I asked for evidence you dimwit, not more of your irrational drivel!

I suppose you got your drivel from one of your holy-ghost encounters LOL!

If you want to talk about dimwits, you should probably note that no one ever claimed Josephus was a Christian.

Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: The points of course escape dimwits like YOU!

The various claims are that Josephus wrote about a miracle working character called jebus, those claims based upon those claiming to be its followers & calling themselves xtians, and so convinced by what these xtian followers told him, in reality Josephus didn't believe a scrap of it and remained a faithful Jew and hence rejected xtianity and their claims, LOL!

Your literal Saviour moi!

I am guessing you did not laugh out loud.
Did you?
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Nac.

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DanielChristopherBlowes
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11/3/2012 10:55:34 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/3/2012 6:14:39 AM, Composer wrote:
Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: When did Josephus become a xtian. Evidence please?

Your literal Saviour moi!

At 11/3/2012 1:12:24 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
Last thing at night, first thing in the morning..

I asked for evidence you dimwit, not more of your irrational drivel!

I suppose you got your drivel from one of your holy-ghost encounters LOL!

Your Literal vindicated Saviour moi!

You are tormented by the circular thought; I am a troll.. A troll.. Troll.. Troll.. Ad nauseous ad infinitum..
Everyone on the side of Truth listens to Me. (Jesus Christ)
philochristos
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11/4/2012 1:34:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Testing testing, one two three

Ἰησοῦ τοῦ λεγομένου Χριστοῦ
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
philochristos
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11/4/2012 2:16:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/4/2012 1:34:18 PM, philochristos wrote:
Testing testing, one two three

Ἰησοῦ τοῦ λεγομένου Χριστοῦ

Ιησοῦ τοῦ λεγομένου χριστοῦ
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
DanielChristopherBlowes
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11/8/2012 9:58:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/3/2012 6:14:39 AM, Composer wrote:
Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: When did Josephus become a xtian. Evidence please?

Your literal Saviour moi!

At 11/3/2012 1:12:24 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
Last thing at night, first thing in the morning..

I asked for evidence you dimwit, not more of your irrational drivel!

I suppose you got your drivel from one of your holy-ghost encounters LOL!

Your Literal vindicated Saviour moi!

Beginning to get to you is it? That constant nagging of your conscience; troll.. Troll.. Troll..
Everyone on the side of Truth listens to Me. (Jesus Christ)
Smithereens
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11/8/2012 11:15:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/3/2012 7:09:49 AM, Composer wrote:
At 11/3/2012 6:32:11 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 11/3/2012 6:14:39 AM, Composer wrote:
Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: When did Josephus become a xtian. Evidence please?

Your literal Saviour moi!

At 11/3/2012 1:12:24 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
Last thing at night, first thing in the morning..

I asked for evidence you dimwit, not more of your irrational drivel!

I suppose you got your drivel from one of your holy-ghost encounters LOL!

If you want to talk about dimwits, you should probably note that no one ever claimed Josephus was a Christian.

Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: The points of course escape dimwits like YOU!

The various claims are that Josephus wrote about a miracle working character called jebus, those claims based upon those claiming to be its followers & calling themselves xtians, and so convinced by what these xtian followers told him, in reality Josephus didn't believe a scrap of it and remained a faithful Jew and hence rejected xtianity and their claims, LOL!

Your literal Saviour moi!

Josephus didn't write about Jesus, he merely mentioned him in passing, with the exception of the Testimonium flavious.
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Composer
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11/8/2012 11:22:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/8/2012 11:15:33 PM, Smithereens wrote:
Josephus didn't write about Jesus, he merely mentioned him in passing, with the exception of the Testimonium flavious.

1. That's not an ' exception ' its your blatant fatal contradiction!

2. . . . . A False Witness
Despite the best wishes of sincere believers and the erroneous claims of truculent apologists, the Testimonium Flavianum has been demonstrated continually over the centuries to be a forgery, . . . . (Source: http://www.truthbeknown.com...)

Your mentor & literal Saviour moi!
DanielChristopherBlowes
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11/9/2012 4:07:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/8/2012 11:22:50 PM, Composer wrote:
At 11/8/2012 11:15:33 PM, Smithereens wrote:
Josephus didn't write about Jesus, he merely mentioned him in passing, with the exception of the Testimonium flavious.

1. That's not an ' exception ' its your blatant fatal contradiction!

2. . . . . A False Witness
Despite the best wishes of sincere believers and the erroneous claims of truculent apologists, the Testimonium Flavianum has been demonstrated continually over the centuries to be a forgery, . . . . (Source: http://www.truthbeknown.com...)

Your mentor & literal Saviour moi!

Literal troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll.. C'mon everybody! Troll troll troll troll troll..
Everyone on the side of Truth listens to Me. (Jesus Christ)
Composer
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11/9/2012 7:44:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/3/2012 7:13:15 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
And still, you've failed to show that anyone ever claimed Josephus was a Christian, because of course no one did.

I never implied nor inferred that any one has so far claimed Josephus was a xtian, yet again I remain vindicated that Josephus' writings are often cited by those ' claiming to be a xtian ', as their alleged partial evidence that a Historical jebus literally existed e.g. the Testimonium Flavianum/TF which, as we observe is a recognised forgery!

Then again, Josephus remaining a devout Jew; strongly indicates my other successful point that based upon what Josephus had heard (self acclaimed xtian's hearsay) he remained a Jew, because Story book mythical jebus was shown to be an eternal Jew in bible Story book Land and he recognised these self acclaimed xtians were in fact liars! LOL!

Which reminds me, there is yet another investigation (hopefully a Royal Commission soon) here in Australia concerning Australian Police investigations exposing other liars = none other than the catholic Cult themselves and how those in authority systematically ' lied to Australian Police ' & destroyed pertinent documents and in general impeded the Australian Police's investigations concerning your numerous dirty little paedophile catholic Cult priests.

Hence Josephus' findings to remain a Jew was well warranted, as these lying bastards calling themselves xtians have maintained that dishonest ministry of lies & cover-ups, ever since Josephus' time!

Your mentor & literal Saviour moi!
DanielChristopherBlowes
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11/10/2012 9:46:49 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/9/2012 4:07:33 PM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 11/8/2012 11:22:50 PM, Composer wrote:
At 11/8/2012 11:15:33 PM, Smithereens wrote:
Josephus didn't write about Jesus, he merely mentioned him in passing, with the exception of the Testimonium flavious.

1. That's not an ' exception ' its your blatant fatal contradiction!

2. . . . . A False Witness
Despite the best wishes of sincere believers and the erroneous claims of truculent apologists, the Testimonium Flavianum has been demonstrated continually over the centuries to be a forgery, . . . . (Source: http://www.truthbeknown.com...)

Your mentor & literal Saviour moi!

Literal troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll.. C'mon everybody! Troll troll troll troll troll..
Everyone on the side of Truth listens to Me. (Jesus Christ)
Stephen_Hawkins
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11/10/2012 3:29:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'm really quite rusty in these (as I said in the comments after R1), and need to improve on my accuracy in general on these debates, but the argument was pretty much as DACTMOTO claimed. It was also in context a culminative case, but I was hard-pressed for characters as refuting Tacitus is something that takes a lot of characters cos I have a lot of angles to cover.

The general gist was that the idea that Josephus using such phrasing is something that should be spotted as peculiar. The phrasing in the Greek especially (again, lack of time to go through this in the debate) was niche, and there were different phrases to use for it. This, in a section which is well seen to be an interpolation among the other things I mentioned in the debate on this point come together to grant a great reason to be skeptical on the front of Christ.
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to be Gay, he'll positively influence the GDP.

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Composer
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11/11/2012 4:04:28 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/10/2012 9:46:49 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
Literal troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll.. C'mon everybody! Troll troll troll troll troll..

Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster: troll you say = me, correct!

Ok so remember always the distinction that you rightly ' claim ' I am a troll and conversely I already repeatedly ' proved ' you and your like-minded associates are Trolls, big difference!

As you stated: I am metaphorically often labelled by people like you, a #: troll defined as - 1 n. (in Scandinavian folklore) fabulous being, esp. a giant . . . . (POD)

Conversely you are a proven - "Troll", which is a five-letter word defined as referring to people (like you) who are asked questions by ' fabulous trolls like me ' that failed religions like yours e.g. trinitarianism, Mormon, Muslim, christian mystics, spiritualists, J.w's, etc. etc. cannot legitimately answer.

What so called christianity teaches is easily proven absurd, illegitimate and unsustainable and plain WRONG! even in its fundamentals according to the very Story book bible benchmark appealed to for some credibility, fails there also.

Your mentor (troll (metaph')) & literal Saviour moi!
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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11/13/2012 12:13:26 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Composer, I'm still waiting for you to prove:

Story book Jebus never existed

Story book Jebus was an eternal Jew

Then we'll talk.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13