Total Posts:78|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Question for theists, atheists

OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 1:36:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
For the atheists:

What would be the bare minimum required to make you a theist? Are you only looking for rational philosophical arguments? Would an unusual experience of a certain type shake your non-belief? What if "God" came to you in a dream one night? Two nights? Three nights in a row?

For the theists:

Does the problem of evil bother you whatsoever? Do you consider it a considerable obstacle to faith?
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 1:44:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
"What would be the bare minimum required to make you a theist? Are you only looking for rational philosophical arguments?"
Yes.
"Would an unusual experience of a certain type shake your non-belief? What if "God" came to you in a dream one night? Two nights? Three nights in a row?"
It might make me uncertain for a while, but I won't convert. I don't think that "visions" are actually real.
#UnbanTheMadman

"Some will sell their dreams for small desires
Or lose the race to rats
Get caught in ticking traps
And start to dream of somewhere
To relax their restless flight
Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights..."

~ Rush
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 1:52:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/4/2012 1:36:34 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
Does the problem of evil bother you whatsoever? Do you consider it a considerable obstacle to faith?

It depends on the version. I don't think it's possible for evil to exist if there is no God, but it is possible for suffering to exist if there is no God. The problem of suffering bothers me because some suffering appears to be gratuitous, i.e., it serves no good purpose. Although this is an obstacle to faith for me, it isn't a considerable obstacle to my faith because (1) it's an argument based on my own ignorance, and (2) it seems to follow from the moral argument for God that God is perfectly good, which means that whatever God does (including allowing or causing suffering in the world), he has a morally justifiable reason for doing it, even if I don't know what that reason is.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
phantom
Posts: 6,774
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 1:52:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/4/2012 1:36:34 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
For the atheists:

What would be the bare minimum required to make you a theist? Are you only looking for rational philosophical arguments?

No. Firstly, not only philosophical arguments; scientific or historical/geographical ones would do. An experience could do it too.

Would an unusual experience of a certain type shake your non-belief? What if "God" came to you in a dream one night? Two nights? Three nights in a row?

An unusual experience maybe but I think continued dreams while I'm asleep would only make me consider my beliefs and seek an answer.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Enji
Posts: 1,022
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 1:52:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
If one day some well documented physical law (like gravity) just decided to stop working (falsifying pretty much all of physics), then I'd believe in God.
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 1:52:57 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The Problem of Evil is in my opinion the best argument against theism.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
phantom
Posts: 6,774
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 1:54:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/4/2012 1:52:57 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
The Problem of Evil is in my opinion the best argument against theism.

There are no good arguments against theism.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
phantom
Posts: 6,774
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 1:55:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/4/2012 1:54:23 PM, phantom wrote:
At 11/4/2012 1:52:57 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
The Problem of Evil is in my opinion the best argument against theism.

There are no good arguments against theism.

Taking that back. The only good argument against theism is that there are no good arguments for theism.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 1:56:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/4/2012 1:54:23 PM, phantom wrote:
At 11/4/2012 1:52:57 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
The Problem of Evil is in my opinion the best argument against theism.

There are no good arguments against theism.

I'm not sure what you mean, but if I'm not using the word "argument" right, I'm sure you at least understand what I'm trying to say.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 1:56:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/4/2012 1:52:57 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
The Problem of Evil is in my opinion the best argument against theism.

And, as I write, my #1 barrier to theism.
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 1:57:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/4/2012 1:55:38 PM, phantom wrote:
At 11/4/2012 1:54:23 PM, phantom wrote:
At 11/4/2012 1:52:57 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
The Problem of Evil is in my opinion the best argument against theism.

There are no good arguments against theism.

Taking that back. The only good argument against theism is that there are no good arguments for theism.

We'd probably disagree on what constitutes a "good argument."
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 1:58:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/4/2012 1:36:34 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
Does the problem of evil bother you whatsoever? Do you consider it a considerable obstacle to faith?
The PoE only addresses God if he has 3 omni-qualities. He has many more.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 1:58:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/4/2012 1:36:34 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
For the atheists:

What would be the bare minimum required to make you a theist? Are you only looking for rational philosophical arguments? Would an unusual experience of a certain type shake your non-belief? What if "God" came to you in a dream one night? Two nights? Three nights in a row?

For the theists:

Does the problem of evil bother you whatsoever? Do you consider it a considerable obstacle to faith?

You'd have to prove what freewill is, and then prove that it's coherent before you can get me to believe in any religion....since they all presume it.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 2:01:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/4/2012 1:58:54 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 11/4/2012 1:36:34 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
For the atheists:

What would be the bare minimum required to make you a theist? Are you only looking for rational philosophical arguments? Would an unusual experience of a certain type shake your non-belief? What if "God" came to you in a dream one night? Two nights? Three nights in a row?

For the theists:

Does the problem of evil bother you whatsoever? Do you consider it a considerable obstacle to faith?

You'd have to prove what freewill is, and then prove that it's coherent before you can get me to believe in any religion....since they all presume it.

but I don't think that's possible anymore than proving that 1+1 is 90. Freewill ultimately leads to a causal regress, which, should it ever stop, supposes an initial event with no antecedent, or attendant control, thereby serving as a secondary rejoinder to the freewill concept.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
phantom
Posts: 6,774
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 2:10:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/4/2012 1:58:54 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 11/4/2012 1:36:34 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
For the atheists:

What would be the bare minimum required to make you a theist? Are you only looking for rational philosophical arguments? Would an unusual experience of a certain type shake your non-belief? What if "God" came to you in a dream one night? Two nights? Three nights in a row?

For the theists:

Does the problem of evil bother you whatsoever? Do you consider it a considerable obstacle to faith?

You'd have to prove what freewill is, and then prove that it's coherent before you can get me to believe in any religion....since they all presume it.

No they don't. Ask Paradox.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 2:15:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/4/2012 2:10:20 PM, phantom wrote:
At 11/4/2012 1:58:54 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 11/4/2012 1:36:34 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
For the atheists:

What would be the bare minimum required to make you a theist? Are you only looking for rational philosophical arguments? Would an unusual experience of a certain type shake your non-belief? What if "God" came to you in a dream one night? Two nights? Three nights in a row?

For the theists:

Does the problem of evil bother you whatsoever? Do you consider it a considerable obstacle to faith?

You'd have to prove what freewill is, and then prove that it's coherent before you can get me to believe in any religion....since they all presume it.

No they don't. Ask Paradox.

I don't even want to deal with Paradox. He thinks people are determined, yet somehow deserve hell...and on top of that God is supposedly omnibenevolent. That goes beyond theist/atheist argumentation, that goes beyond debate...it's just logically incoherent. I get angry just thinking about it.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
phantom
Posts: 6,774
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 2:17:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/4/2012 2:15:23 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 11/4/2012 2:10:20 PM, phantom wrote:
At 11/4/2012 1:58:54 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 11/4/2012 1:36:34 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
For the atheists:

What would be the bare minimum required to make you a theist? Are you only looking for rational philosophical arguments? Would an unusual experience of a certain type shake your non-belief? What if "God" came to you in a dream one night? Two nights? Three nights in a row?

For the theists:

Does the problem of evil bother you whatsoever? Do you consider it a considerable obstacle to faith?

You'd have to prove what freewill is, and then prove that it's coherent before you can get me to believe in any religion....since they all presume it.

No they don't. Ask Paradox.

I don't even want to deal with Paradox. He thinks people are determined, yet somehow deserve hell...and on top of that God is supposedly omnibenevolent. That goes beyond theist/atheist argumentation, that goes beyond debate...it's just logically incoherent. I get angry just thinking about it.

Agreed but just pointing out they don't all presume it.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
WW
Posts: 100
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 2:39:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
For the theists:

Does the problem of evil bother you whatsoever? Do you consider it a considerable obstacle to faith?

No. Well, a bit. Okay, a lot. But, I still believe in a God.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 3:28:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/4/2012 1:52:57 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
The Problem of Evil is in my opinion the best argument against theism.

I don't think it's an argument against theism in general at all, just against a particular God. There could be a morally indifferent God, which would be compatible with The Problem of Evil and Theism. Anyway, all I would need is one argument which logically concludes God's existence, which contains premises that one would have to be irrational to not accept if fully understanding them. Since I have not come across one, I am not a theist.
SarcasticIndeed
Posts: 2,215
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 3:41:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/4/2012 1:36:34 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
For the atheists:

What would be the bare minimum required to make you a theist? Are you only looking for rational philosophical arguments? Would an unusual experience of a certain type shake your non-belief? What if "God" came to you in a dream one night? Two nights? Three nights in a row?

Any solid evidence will do. An absolutely valid philosophical argument would work. Clear personal experience or convincing historical evidence would do it as well. Dreams... Not so much, perhaps if God appeared to me in real life, then yes.

For the theists:

Does the problem of evil bother you whatsoever? Do you consider it a considerable obstacle to faith?
<SIGNATURE CENSORED> nac
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,926
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 4:29:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/4/2012 1:36:34 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
For the atheists:

What would be the bare minimum required to make you a theist? Are you only looking for rational philosophical arguments? Would an unusual experience of a certain type shake your non-belief? What if "God" came to you in a dream one night? Two nights? Three nights in a row?

For the theists:

Does the problem of evil bother you whatsoever? Do you consider it a considerable obstacle to faith?

Yep, pretty tremendously. It's (and some of it's closely related variants; some would argue that divine hiddenness is also a particular statement of the PoE) the only good atheistic argument there is, IMO. In Bayesian terms I think it does successfully lower the rational credence of theism somewhat. But just not enough to make theism irrational or unreasonable. I think is far, far, FAR more serious and potent than most people seem to give it credit for, however.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2012 4:40:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/4/2012 4:29:42 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 11/4/2012 1:36:34 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
For the atheists:

What would be the bare minimum required to make you a theist? Are you only looking for rational philosophical arguments? Would an unusual experience of a certain type shake your non-belief? What if "God" came to you in a dream one night? Two nights? Three nights in a row?

For the theists:

Does the problem of evil bother you whatsoever? Do you consider it a considerable obstacle to faith?

Yep, pretty tremendously. It's (and some of it's closely related variants; some would argue that divine hiddenness is also a particular statement of the PoE) the only good atheistic argument there is, IMO. In Bayesian terms I think it does successfully lower the rational credence of theism somewhat. But just not enough to make theism irrational or unreasonable. I think is far, far, FAR more serious and potent than most people seem to give it credit for, however.

How so? If evil exists objectively, wouldn't that in itself prove God's existence according to theistic beliefs? Most believe that good and evil don't exist without God, thus, if there is a problem of evil, wouldn't that just solidify God's existence to you? To me, it doesn't seem like the PoE challenges theism that much at all.
unitedandy
Posts: 1,173
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/5/2012 1:14:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/4/2012 1:36:34 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
For the atheists:

What would be the bare minimum required to make you a theist? Are you only looking for rational philosophical arguments? Would an unusual experience of a certain type shake your non-belief? What if "God" came to you in a dream one night? Two nights? Three nights in a row?

For me, it would take both a rational shift, as well as personal experience. Easily the biggest obstacle for me is the PoE, so if I had had a satisfactory answer (not necessarily a solution) to that, it would be a massive step towards theism.

For the theists:

Does the problem of evil bother you whatsoever? Do you consider it a considerable obstacle to faith?
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/5/2012 2:04:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/4/2012 2:15:23 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 11/4/2012 2:10:20 PM, phantom wrote:
At 11/4/2012 1:58:54 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 11/4/2012 1:36:34 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
For the atheists:

What would be the bare minimum required to make you a theist? Are you only looking for rational philosophical arguments? Would an unusual experience of a certain type shake your non-belief? What if "God" came to you in a dream one night? Two nights? Three nights in a row?

For the theists:

Does the problem of evil bother you whatsoever? Do you consider it a considerable obstacle to faith?

You'd have to prove what freewill is, and then prove that it's coherent before you can get me to believe in any religion....since they all presume it.

No they don't. Ask Paradox.

I don't even want to deal with Paradox. He thinks people are determined, yet somehow deserve hell...and on top of that God is supposedly omnibenevolent. That goes beyond theist/atheist argumentation, that goes beyond debate...it's just logically incoherent. I get angry just thinking about it.


Lol, wow, you managed to f*ck my beliefs all up.

I don't believe in mans ability to choose God, that's about it.

Philo_Christos, Genesis Creation, and Joneszj all share this belief with me.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/5/2012 2:18:33 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/4/2012 1:36:34 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
For the atheists:

What would be the bare minimum required to make you a theist?

Sorry, but this is a completely absurd question. There is no way of knowing what the "bare minimum" requirements would be for accepting any belief. While you can speculate about some set of requirements that would cause you to believe something, how could you know if they were the minimal amount?

Are you only looking for rational philosophical arguments? Would an unusual experience of a certain type shake your non-belief? What if "God" came to you in a dream one night? Two nights? Three nights in a row?

For the theists:

Does the problem of evil bother you whatsoever? Do you consider it a considerable obstacle to faith?
DanielChristopherBlowes
Posts: 1,066
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/5/2012 2:58:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/4/2012 1:36:34 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
For the atheists:

What would be the bare minimum required to make you a theist? Are you only looking for rational philosophical arguments? Would an unusual experience of a certain type shake your non-belief? What if "God" came to you in a dream one night? Two nights? Three nights in a row?

For the theists:

Does the problem of evil bother you whatsoever? Do you consider it a considerable obstacle to faith?

All evil glorifies Gods Holy name; He said "do not" we did, and the resulting mess shows His righteousness.
Everyone on the side of Truth listens to Me. (Jesus Christ)
Muted
Posts: 377
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/5/2012 8:02:39 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/4/2012 1:52:22 PM, Enji wrote:
If one day some well documented physical law (like gravity) just decided to stop working (falsifying pretty much all of physics), then I'd believe in God.

Gravity is not a law.
Exterminate!!!!!!-Dalek.

The ability to speak does not make you a competent debater.

One does not simply do the rain dance.
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/5/2012 8:20:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I would need a direct, personal revelation. God knows this by now.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

https://i.imgflip.com...
Enji
Posts: 1,022
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/5/2012 8:51:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/5/2012 8:02:39 PM, Muted wrote:
At 11/4/2012 1:52:22 PM, Enji wrote:
If one day some well documented physical law (like gravity) just decided to stop working (falsifying pretty much all of physics), then I'd believe in God.

Gravity is not a law.

In science, a law refers to an analytic statement / formula which allows can be used to describe what things will do whereas a theory provides an explanation for why things happen. Newton's law of universal gravitation provides a formula to calculate the strength of the gravitational pull between two objects. Einstein's theory of General Relativity explains why things fall. Thus, gravity can be referred to as both a theory and a law.

It's true, the theory of General Relativity makes more accurate predictions in extreme conditions. However, within its range of applicability Newton's law of universal gravitation is quite precise.
Muted
Posts: 377
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/5/2012 9:32:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Now I am lectured once again on the difference between a theory and a law in science just because it is assumed that I am a creationist and thus unable to understand science. *Sigh*
There are more than one explanation on gravity. (By the way, things don"t "fall" exactly, they collide (I don"t think I need to explain this to you)) Have you seen debates where astrophysicists throw verbal feces at each other over each"s valid interpretation of gravity?
I am not disputing current explanations. However, see this interesting discussion on laws and theories http://www.physicsforums.com...

So now I partially understand what you actually meant to say. You meant to say that if the presently observed phenomena of mutual attraction between two bodies is no longer observed, you would believe in a god.

My views on gravity is that the observed phenomena is a law. This is because it has never been broken. In that you are right. My disputation occurs over the explanation of this phenomena which are not laws.
Any contentions now?
Exterminate!!!!!!-Dalek.

The ability to speak does not make you a competent debater.

One does not simply do the rain dance.