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Question for Christian Theists

JBlake
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10/6/2009 10:23:43 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
This question can go to Theists of any religion. I am directing it towards Christians because I don't think we have anyone from any other major religion.

Why do you accept the divinity of Jesus Christ and not any other prophets (like Joseph Smith or Mohammed)?

Why do you believe in the Christian god (Yahweh) and not any of the countless other gods that have existed throughout history (Zeus, Allah, Thor, Horus, &ct.)?

It was an accident that you were born into a culture in which Christianity is the major religion. If you had been born elsewhere you would have begun life as a Muslim, or any of a number of other religions. Do you think you would still have converted to Christianity, or remained with your the god of the culture to which you were born?
tkubok
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10/6/2009 11:29:18 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Clearly because God has revealed to me that the bible is correct.

I was sleeping one night, and the glass broke. There was a bearded man, covered in blood, in white rags, in my room. He penetrated me with his hot fiery spear again and again, while shouting "OH CHRIST! OH GOD CHRIST!" And i passed out from the experience. When i woke up, i knew it wasnt a dream, because the window was shattered and my clothes were tattered. And thats how i know the bible is true!
Xer
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10/6/2009 12:25:19 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
I've said the same thing before, except I framed it differently.

There are thousands and thousands of Gods. The only reason I initially believed in the Judeo-Christian God is because I was born into a Catholic family. If I was born to a family in Iran, I'd most likely be Muslim. If I was born to a family in Israel, I'd most likely be Jewish. If I was born in 12th century Scandinavia, I'd most likely believe in Thor. If I was born in Classical Greece, I'd most likely believe in Zeus. And so on and so on. In conclusion, the idea that any God or Religion is the right God, simply goes against probabilty. The odds that one specific God or Religion is the true God / Religion is just astronomical.
JBlake
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10/6/2009 12:30:58 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Agreed, Nags. I wasn't aware that you or anyone else had brought up the point before. I was interested in hearing from our Christians, like the Texas contingent, &ct. Where is mongoose, mongeese, and wjmelements?
comoncents
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10/6/2009 12:31:28 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/6/2009 10:23:43 AM, JBlake wrote:
This question can go to Theists of any religion. I am directing it towards Christians because I don't think we have anyone from any other major religion.

Why do you accept the divinity of Jesus Christ and not any other prophets (like Joseph Smith or Mohammed)?

Why do you believe in the Christian god (Yahweh) and not any of the countless other gods that have existed throughout history (Zeus, Allah, Thor, Horus, &ct.)?

It was an accident that you were born into a culture in which Christianity is the major religion. If you had been born elsewhere you would have begun life as a Muslim, or any of a number of other religions. Do you think you would still have converted to Christianity, or remained with your the god of the culture to which you were born?

someone please answer this, and do not give the bible copout.

we get it... you believe a lot of old people wrote a stuff that someone decided what to put together.
it does not hold much water, so come up with something that i can believe.
Xer
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10/7/2009 12:08:26 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/7/2009 12:07:36 PM, JBlake wrote:
Why have there been no responses as of yet?

I didn't get a response when I said this either.
InquireTruth
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10/7/2009 12:55:43 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Why do you accept the divinity of Jesus Christ and not any other prophets (like Joseph Smith or Mohammed)?

Neither Joseph Smith nor Mohammed claimed to be divine. Joseph Smith proclaimed the divinity of Christ, not himself. Mohammed saw Jesus as just another prophet like himself. I accept the Divinity of Jesus Christ because I believe his claims to be Divine were true. Point and fact, nobody converts to Christianity because they lost the argument. I am a Christian because the preponderance of my personal experiences dictate it. I am a Christian because I believe in evil – objective and verifiable evil. I believe Christianity has the most sufficient worldview to describe what I have observed.

Why do you believe in the Christian god (Yahweh) and not any of the countless other gods that have existed throughout history (Zeus, Allah, Thor, Horus, &ct.)?

Belief is only half the equation, and the lesser of two. Moreover, the Bible never denies the existence of other god's, it states that we should have no other god's before Yahweh. The other god's are either cheap machinations of a spiritually hungry world, clever machinations of the prince of this world, or other spiritual entities wanting what only Yahweh deserves. I believe in Yahweh because I believe in the testimony, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Jesus predicted that many would not believe despite his wondrous signs. God may not be falsifiable, but do not assume that Christianity is not.

It was an accident that you were born into a culture in which Christianity is the major religion. If you had been born elsewhere you would have begun life as a Muslim, or any of a number of other religions

This is called the genetic fallacy.
brittwaller
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10/7/2009 1:13:42 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
"'It was an accident that you were born into a culture in which Christianity is the major religion. If you had been born elsewhere you would have begun life as a Muslim, or any of a number of other religions'

This is called the genetic fallacy."

You gave a great answer to the rest of the question, IT, and much respect for that, but demographics are not an example of the genetic fallacy. Religion is, first, a familial phenomenon. It is second a geographic/cultural one. Is there really any denying that?

http://www.fallacyfiles.org...
Don't I take care of them all?
JBlake
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10/7/2009 1:22:58 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/7/2009 12:55:43 PM, InquireTruth wrote:
It was an accident that you were born into a culture in which Christianity is the major religion. If you had been born elsewhere you would have begun life as a Muslim, or any of a number of other religions

This is called the genetic fallacy.

Explain how the genetic fallacy applies to this, please.
JBlake
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10/7/2009 1:27:35 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Agreed with Britt Waller.

I would add that the cultural location of one's birth is quite relevent to their current religious beliefs.

I don't think it is a very controversial statement to say that people generally (with a few exceptions) follow the religion of their parents. If not their parents, then certainly the most proximate cultural surroundings.
InquireTruth
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10/7/2009 1:30:56 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
The truth of the matter is no way contingent on demographics. If one intends on saying that Christianity is false because if you were born in Southeast Asia you would be a Muslim, then that would be the genetic fallacy.

In my mind, the question posed is an unfair one. It is no different than my saying that if you were born into a devout atheist family you would probably be atheist. Or a family that affirmed the superiority of empiricism. Or a family that affirmed the utility of capitalism or socialism or anarchism. The truth of these things are in no way contingent on the area you were born – so what of it?

Muslims do not deny Jesus, they deny his divinity. Both Mormons and Muslims attempt to add to the Bible – insofar as they rely on another holy text to be seen in conjunction with the Bible (which, upon reflection, reveals self-contradiction or downright plagiarism from the Old Testament). They accept the Gospel but both feel that it is corrupted.
Xer
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10/7/2009 2:44:01 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/7/2009 1:30:56 PM, InquireTruth wrote:
The truth of the matter is no way contingent on demographics. If one intends on saying that Christianity is false because if you were born in Southeast Asia you would be a Muslim, then that would be the genetic fallacy.

It's true though. Your religion is directly dependent on your geography.

In my mind, the question posed is an unfair one. It is no different than my saying that if you were born into a devout atheist family you would probably be atheist.

I was born into a Catholic family. Most atheists were probably born into religious families.

Or a family that affirmed the superiority of empiricism. Or a family that affirmed the utility of capitalism or socialism or anarchism. The truth of these things are in no way contingent on the area you were born – so what of it?

Exactly. For the most part, political and philosophical beliefs do not rely on geography - whereas religion does.

Muslims do not deny Jesus, they deny his divinity. Both Mormons and Muslims attempt to add to the Bible – insofar as they rely on another holy text to be seen in conjunction with the Bible (which, upon reflection, reveals self-contradiction or downright plagiarism from the Old Testament). They accept the Gospel but both feel that it is corrupted.

Why do you deny Allah? If you were born into Iran, I'm sure you wouldn't.
Volkov
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10/7/2009 2:49:12 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/7/2009 2:44:01 PM, Nags wrote:
Exactly. For the most part, political and philosophical beliefs do not rely on geography - whereas religion does.

I wouldn't say "for the most part" in regards to political and philosophical, or even religious, depends on "geography."

I may be taking this too literally, but if you move a Christan family from the US to Saudi Arabia, they're going to remain Christian regardless. Most likely, even if they had a child growing up in Saudi Arabia, with a Christian family, he'll most likely remain a Christian. The fact that the child and the family lives in Saudi Arabia, near a desert or Mecca or whatever, won't make them Muslim.

Demographics is what influences religious, political and philosophical ideas - not the geography. I mean, I don't think you're any less Christian if you grow up next to a mountain, lol.
Xer
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10/7/2009 2:55:48 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/7/2009 2:49:12 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 10/7/2009 2:44:01 PM, Nags wrote:
Exactly. For the most part, political and philosophical beliefs do not rely on geography - whereas religion does.

I wouldn't say "for the most part" in regards to political and philosophical, or even religious, depends on "geography."

I may be taking this too literally, but if you move a Christan family from the US to Saudi Arabia, they're going to remain Christian regardless. Most likely, even if they had a child growing up in Saudi Arabia, with a Christian family, he'll most likely remain a Christian. The fact that the child and the family lives in Saudi Arabia, near a desert or Mecca or whatever, won't make them Muslim.

Demographics is what influences religious, political and philosophical ideas - not the geography. I mean, I don't think you're any less Christian if you grow up next to a mountain, lol.

I should've specified. I meant where you are born - not necesarrily where you live. If you're born into a Christian family in Utah - you will be Christian. If you move to Saudi Arabia - you will still be Christian. Obviously. I think family can influence your beliefs a lot more in non-Western-Industrialized countries though.
Volkov
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10/7/2009 3:07:28 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/7/2009 2:59:16 PM, JBlake wrote:
Volkov... I'm pretty sure that demographics is what we have been talking about.

They keep saying "geography" though, which is why I stated what I did. I did note that I might be taking it too literally.
Xer
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10/7/2009 3:09:56 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/7/2009 3:07:28 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 10/7/2009 2:59:16 PM, JBlake wrote:
Volkov... I'm pretty sure that demographics is what we have been talking about.

They keep saying "geography" though, which is why I stated what I did. I did note that I might be taking it too literally.

Well, geography is a factor of demographics. And yes, I think you are taking it too literally.
Xer
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10/7/2009 4:31:19 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/7/2009 4:25:46 PM, mongeese wrote:
A pet peeve of mine: Stop calling Allah a separate god from Yahweh. Allah is just Yahweh in Arabic rather than Hebrew.

Allah = God of Quran
Yahweh = God of Bible

= Different.
leet4A1
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10/7/2009 4:31:25 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/7/2009 4:25:46 PM, mongeese wrote:
A pet peeve of mine: Stop calling Allah a separate god from Yahweh. Allah is just Yahweh in Arabic rather than Hebrew.

It's true. They believe in the same dude.
"Let me tell you the truth. The truth is, 'what is'. And 'what should be' is a fantasy, a terrible terrible lie that someone gave to the people long ago. The 'what should be' never did exist, but people keep trying to live up to it. There is no 'what should be,' there is only what is." - Lenny Bruce

"Satan goes to church, did you know that?" - Godsands

"And Genisis 1 does match modern science... you just have to try really hard." - GR33K FR33K5
mongeese
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10/7/2009 4:49:56 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/7/2009 4:31:19 PM, Nags wrote:
At 10/7/2009 4:25:46 PM, mongeese wrote:
A pet peeve of mine: Stop calling Allah a separate god from Yahweh. Allah is just Yahweh in Arabic rather than Hebrew.

Allah = God of Quran
Yahweh = God of Bible

= Different.

"The Qur'an insists, Muslims believe, and historians affirm that Muhammad and his followers worship the same God as the Jews [see Qur'an 29:46]. The Quran's Allah is the same Creator God who covenanted with Abraham." -- Francis Edward Peters, http://en.wikipedia.org...
Xer
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10/7/2009 5:02:08 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/7/2009 4:49:56 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 10/7/2009 4:31:19 PM, Nags wrote:
At 10/7/2009 4:25:46 PM, mongeese wrote:
A pet peeve of mine: Stop calling Allah a separate god from Yahweh. Allah is just Yahweh in Arabic rather than Hebrew.

Allah = God of Quran
Yahweh = God of Bible

= Different.

"The Qur'an insists, Muslims believe, and historians affirm that Muhammad and his followers worship the same God as the Jews [see Qur'an 29:46]. The Quran's Allah is the same Creator God who covenanted with Abraham." -- Francis Edward Peters, http://en.wikipedia.org...

1) Straw man. Different books, different Gods.

2) I can quote people too.

"The pressure to see Allah and Jehovah as merely two different names for the same God is great, especially in the missionary field. I would argue the very unbiblical "number oriented" mindset that fills many churches today is partly to blame for this pressure. In any case, the Caners are correct: Allah is not Jehovah."
http://www.aomin.org...

"Under no circumstances is Jehovah, the God of the Bible, and Allah, of the Koran, the same. First of all, the God of the Bible is a God of love and redemption, who sent His Son into the world to die for our sins. Allah tells people to die for him in order to get salvation, but there is no understanding of salvation. Allah was the moon god from Mecca. That is why Islam has the crescent moon. The flag of Turkey has a crescent moon with a star in it. Well, the crescent moon is because Allah was the moon god, and that is the deal. But we don't serve a moon god. We serve the God of creation, the Creator of everything.

They are not the same. To translate Allah as God is wrong. When you see something in there and it says Allah, you translate it Allah. Don't call it God because it is different. God is Elohim. He is the Creator, the Jehovah God, Yahweh. Yahweh of the Old Testament was the Father who brought forth Jesus into the world."
http://www.cbn.com...#

"The Christian faith is essentially and irreducibly Trinitarian. The Bible reveals that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Jesus is not merely a prophet; He is God in human flesh. This is precisely what Islam rejects. If Allah has no Son, he is not the Father.

This is the most significant theological obstacle in the way of the Christian use of Allah as a name for God. Jesus taught his disciples to pray to "our Father, who is in heaven" [Matthew 6:9] -- thus disallowing any confusion concerning God's name. The most important names for God for Christians are "Father," "Son," and "Holy Spirit." In the four New Testament gospels, Jesus uses the word "Father" more than sixty times. No Muslim would refer to Allah in this same way. This is not what will come to mind when a Muslim hears a Christian pray to Allah."
http://www.albertmohler.com...#

3) =)
JBlake
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10/7/2009 5:06:47 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
While generally speaking, Allah is formed from the same god of the Jews and Christians. However, the attributes of each religion are so different and distinct as to make them different gods entirely.

Allah need not be the only god with cultural roots. Indeed, every god of the past has a cultural basis the same way I described. Substitute 'Zeus' or 'Thor' to any mention of Allah - then address this thread.

I would like very much to hear from you on this issue, mongoose. I had the Texas delegation specifically in mind when I made the thread. So far, no discussion from any of you.
Xer
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10/7/2009 5:07:00 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
mongeese,

I find you are really pushing that Allah and Yahweh are the same. If so, you should worship Allah as said in the Quran, and read the Quran, and follow Islam. If not, stick with Christianity and the Bible. Your assertion is weak, and you are only doing it so it makes the argument for the existence of God easier to win.

Let me make an analogy.

TITLE: GOD
NAME 1: Yehweh
NAME 2: Allah

TITLE: Congressman
NAME 1: Ron Paul
NAME 2: Nancy Pelosi

Same?
InquireTruth
Posts: 723
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10/7/2009 5:12:37 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
It's true though. Your religion is directly dependent on your geography.

My religion is DIRECTLY dependent on my geography? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you did not mean to make such a categorical statement. The fact of the matter is that demographics are irrelevant to the truth. If you think that demographics are somehow relevant to the truth of the matter, see http://en.wikipedia.org....

 Most atheists were probably born into religious families.

Are we to accept your word for it? I know plenty of people (I can name more than 26 whom I know personally) who were born into atheist or agnostic families and are now fully committed Christians. Specific examples hardly represent what is most general.

Exactly. For the most part, political and philosophical beliefs do not rely on geography - whereas religion does.

You missed the point. Our policitical ideologies and philisophical beliefs do, often times, stem from the ideologies and beliefs of our parents. But one cannot reasonbly say that X is false because you probably would not believe X if you were born into a family that believed Y – it's the genetic fallacy.

Why do you deny Allah?

As much as I like to circumlocute, I think i'll pass on it this time. If there is something that you think I did not address in my prior posts, by all means address it specically, but please do not regurgitate the same question.
Xer
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10/7/2009 5:22:57 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/7/2009 5:12:37 PM, InquireTruth wrote:
It's true though. Your religion is directly dependent on your geography.

My religion is DIRECTLY dependent on my geography? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you did not mean to make such a categorical statement. The fact of the matter is that demographics are irrelevant to the truth. If you think that demographics are somehow relevant to the truth of the matter, see http://en.wikipedia.org....

It may be a fallacy, but you're avoiding the point. Where you are born plays a major factor in what religion you are.

 Most atheists were probably born into religious families.

Are we to accept your word for it? I know plenty of people (I can name more than 26 whom I know personally) who were born into atheist or agnostic families and are now fully committed Christians. Specific examples hardly represent what is most general.

True. I'm just operating from personal experience. Either way, it is irrelevant.

Exactly. For the most part, political and philosophical beliefs do not rely on geography - whereas religion does.

You missed the point. Our policitical ideologies and philisophical beliefs do, often times, stem from the ideologies and beliefs of our parents. But one cannot reasonbly say that X is false because you probably would not believe X if you were born into a family that believed Y – it's the genetic fallacy.

I am not claiming X is false. I am claiming the improbability of X because of the family which believed Y.

Why do you deny Allah?

As much as I like to circumlocute, I think i'll pass on it this time. If there is something that you think I did not address in my prior posts, by all means address it specically, but please do not regurgitate the same question.

I think it is unreasonable to believe in a theory solely because of birth-place. Like I said before: If you were born into Family A, you would believe in Religion A. If you were born into Family B, you would believe in Religion B. Et cetera.

"circumlocute" - I learned a new word today. =)
mongeese
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10/7/2009 5:24:37 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 10/7/2009 5:02:08 PM, Nags wrote:
At 10/7/2009 4:49:56 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 10/7/2009 4:31:19 PM, Nags wrote:
At 10/7/2009 4:25:46 PM, mongeese wrote:
A pet peeve of mine: Stop calling Allah a separate god from Yahweh. Allah is just Yahweh in Arabic rather than Hebrew.

Allah = God of Quran
Yahweh = God of Bible

= Different.

"The Qur'an insists, Muslims believe, and historians affirm that Muhammad and his followers worship the same God as the Jews [see Qur'an 29:46]. The Quran's Allah is the same Creator God who covenanted with Abraham." -- Francis Edward Peters, http://en.wikipedia.org...

1) Straw man. Different books, different Gods.
If I were to write one book referring to Confucius as Confucius, and another referencing him as Kung Fuzi instead, would I be talking about two different people.
2) I can quote people too.

"The pressure to see Allah and Jehovah as merely two different names for the same God is great, especially in the missionary field. I would argue the very unbiblical "number oriented" mindset that fills many churches today is partly to blame for this pressure. In any case, the Caners are correct: Allah is not Jehovah."
http://www.aomin.org...

"Under no circumstances is Jehovah, the God of the Bible, and Allah, of the Koran, the same. First of all, the God of the Bible is a God of love and redemption, who sent His Son into the world to die for our sins. Allah tells people to die for him in order to get salvation, but there is no understanding of salvation. Allah was the moon god from Mecca. That is why Islam has the crescent moon. The flag of Turkey has a crescent moon with a star in it. Well, the crescent moon is because Allah was the moon god, and that is the deal. But we don't serve a moon god. We serve the God of creation, the Creator of everything.

They are not the same. To translate Allah as God is wrong. When you see something in there and it says Allah, you translate it Allah. Don't call it God because it is different. God is Elohim. He is the Creator, the Jehovah God, Yahweh. Yahweh of the Old Testament was the Father who brought forth Jesus into the world."
http://www.cbn.com...#

"The Christian faith is essentially and irreducibly Trinitarian. The Bible reveals that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Jesus is not merely a prophet; He is God in human flesh. This is precisely what Islam rejects. If Allah has no Son, he is not the Father.

This is the most significant theological obstacle in the way of the Christian use of Allah as a name for God. Jesus taught his disciples to pray to "our Father, who is in heaven" [Matthew 6:9] -- thus disallowing any confusion concerning God's name. The most important names for God for Christians are "Father," "Son," and "Holy Spirit." In the four New Testament gospels, Jesus uses the word "Father" more than sixty times. No Muslim would refer to Allah in this same way. This is not what will come to mind when a Muslim hears a Christian pray to Allah."
http://www.albertmohler.com...#
Okay, then. We can both quote people. Obviously, the people we quote disagree with each other, although one of my sources happens to be the Qu'ran itself.

Another thing to add:

http://en.wikipedia.org...

"Allah (Arabic: الله‎, Allāh, IPA: [ʔalˤːɑːh] ( listen)) is the standard Arabic word for God."

See, we would call God God. Arabics would call God Allah. Spaniards would call God Dios. And so on, and so on.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

Note how Wikipedia says, "God in Christianity" and "God in Islam," not "of Islam."
3) =)
(=
mongeese
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10/7/2009 5:49:35 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Nags, what if Europeans thought that Confucius was 5'01 with a gray beard, and he roamed the countryside in search of peace and quiet, while the Chinese thought that Kung Fuzi was 7'11" with a white beard, and he roamed the countryside to convince rulers to follow his views?
InquireTruth
Posts: 723
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10/7/2009 5:51:35 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
It may be a fallacy, but you're avoiding the point. 

Since when has clearly demonstrating a points irrelevance become a form of avoidance?

Either way, it is irrelevant.

Okay, so now you're being honest about it. If it is irrelevant, why bring it up?

I am not claiming X is false. I am claiming the improbability of X because of the family which believed Y.

Let's examine your logic and you tell me if we're missing something, okay?
Here in the west, most people believe that illness is often caused by germs on other medically attested factors. We will call this belief X.

Now many of those who live in Tanzania, for example, believe that illness is caused by spirits and sorcery. We will call this belief Y.

Now lets apply your logic.

The western understanding of illness (X) is probably not true due to the Tanzanian understanding of illness (Y). Moreover, and conversely, the Tanzanian understanding (Y) of Illness is probably not true due to the western understanding of illness (X).

Now, feel as you will about this, but I, for one, think it is patently absurd. Your logic virtually eliminates the probably of any belief being true, including atheism.

Yehweh and Allah = very different stories with very different attributes

Clark and Superman. Different stories with very different attributes. Same person.