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Any Jehovah's Witnesses here?

philochristos
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11/7/2012 4:47:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I was just thinking it might be fun to debate a Jehovah's Witness on the question of whether Jesus' resurrection involved his physical body (the one that was crucified) coming back to life. From what I understand, Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jehovah disposed of Jesus' body, and that Jesus' resurrection involved him coming back into existence as a spirit, and that he only manifested physicality (though not with the original body) when he made his appearances, much like the angels who appeared to Abraham.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
DanielChristopherBlowes
Posts: 1,066
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11/8/2012 9:44:13 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/7/2012 4:47:25 PM, philochristos wrote:
I was just thinking it might be fun to debate a Jehovah's Witness on the question of whether Jesus' resurrection involved his physical body (the one that was crucified) coming back to life. From what I understand, Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jehovah disposed of Jesus' body, and that Jesus' resurrection involved him coming back into existence as a spirit, and that he only manifested physicality (though not with the original body) when he made his appearances, much like the angels who appeared to Abraham.

As if anyone but an only begotten Son could possibly be a witness to Jehovah..
Everyone on the side of Truth listens to Me. (Jesus Christ)
Dogknox
Posts: 5,043
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11/8/2012 1:50:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
The JW believe only 144,000 will enter heaven and by coincidence the 144,000 are all JWs!!!

Scriptures reject this JW teaching out right!
1) Scriptures say... The 144,000 are from every tribe of the Jews!! So right off the JW's are NOT JEWS! Proving they are a LIE!

2) Scriptures say the 144,000 are MALES!
Proving the females JW's that are suppose to be part of those entering heaven are also another LIE taught by the JW's!!

3) Scriptures add... the 144,000 MALES are also VIRGINS!!
Again proving the teaching of the JW's is an outright bald faced lie! Most; 90% of the so called saved JW's were married!

4) We can count to 144,000 easy enough!!!
Scriptures say... An UN-countable number stand in heaven>> SAVED!!
Revelation 7:9
[ The Great Multitude in White Robes ] After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.


The JW's are a LIE!!
They are the spawn of Satan!!
They REJECT the words of Jesus outright!
They teach LIES counter to the words of Jesus!

Dogknox
MilitaryAtheist
Posts: 1,058
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11/8/2012 2:12:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/8/2012 1:50:38 PM, Dogknox wrote:
The JW believe only 144,000 will enter heaven and by coincidence the 144,000 are all JWs!!!

Scriptures reject this JW teaching out right!
1) Scriptures say... The 144,000 are from every tribe of the Jews!! So right off the JW's are NOT JEWS! Proving they are a LIE!

2) Scriptures say the 144,000 are MALES!
Proving the females JW's that are suppose to be part of those entering heaven are also another LIE taught by the JW's!!

3) Scriptures add... the 144,000 MALES are also VIRGINS!!
Again proving the teaching of the JW's is an outright bald faced lie! Most; 90% of the so called saved JW's were married!

4) We can count to 144,000 easy enough!!!
Scriptures say... An UN-countable number stand in heaven>> SAVED!!
Revelation 7:9
[ The Great Multitude in White Robes ] After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.


The JW's are a LIE!!
They are the spawn of Satan!!
They REJECT the words of Jesus outright!
They teach LIES counter to the words of Jesus!

Dogknox

God, you're dumb.
Dogknox
Posts: 5,043
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11/8/2012 2:29:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/8/2012 2:12:28 PM, MilitaryAtheist wrote:
At 11/8/2012 1:50:38 PM, Dogknox wrote:
The JW believe only 144,000 will enter heaven and by coincidence the 144,000 are all JWs!!!

Scriptures reject this JW teaching out right!
1) Scriptures say... The 144,000 are from every tribe of the Jews!! So right off the JW's are NOT JEWS! Proving they are a LIE!

2) Scriptures say the 144,000 are MALES!
Proving the females JW's that are suppose to be part of those entering heaven are also another LIE taught by the JW's!!

3) Scriptures add... the 144,000 MALES are also VIRGINS!!
Again proving the teaching of the JW's is an outright bald faced lie! Most; 90% of the so called saved JW's were married!

4) We can count to 144,000 easy enough!!!
Scriptures say... An UN-countable number stand in heaven>> SAVED!!
Revelation 7:9
[ The Great Multitude in White Robes ] After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.


The JW's are a LIE!!
They are the spawn of Satan!!
They REJECT the words of Jesus outright!
They teach LIES counter to the words of Jesus!

Dogknox

God, you're dumb.
MilitaryAtheist I stick to the scriptures!!
The JW's are a LIE!!
They are the spawn of Satan!!
They REJECT the words of Jesus outright!
They teach LIES counter to the words of Jesus!

Christians believe the scriptures, it is JUST this simple!
I am Christian; The JW is NOT! (Proof? Posted above!!)

Am I dumb, to point to the scriptures!!? I did not write them, I point to them!
Clearly you yourself disagree with the scriptures also... !!

Dogknox
MilitaryAtheist
Posts: 1,058
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11/8/2012 2:37:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/8/2012 2:29:14 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 11/8/2012 2:12:28 PM, MilitaryAtheist wrote:
At 11/8/2012 1:50:38 PM, Dogknox wrote:
The JW believe only 144,000 will enter heaven and by coincidence the 144,000 are all JWs!!!

Scriptures reject this JW teaching out right!
1) Scriptures say... The 144,000 are from every tribe of the Jews!! So right off the JW's are NOT JEWS! Proving they are a LIE!

2) Scriptures say the 144,000 are MALES!
Proving the females JW's that are suppose to be part of those entering heaven are also another LIE taught by the JW's!!

3) Scriptures add... the 144,000 MALES are also VIRGINS!!
Again proving the teaching of the JW's is an outright bald faced lie! Most; 90% of the so called saved JW's were married!

4) We can count to 144,000 easy enough!!!
Scriptures say... An UN-countable number stand in heaven>> SAVED!!
Revelation 7:9
[ The Great Multitude in White Robes ] After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.


The JW's are a LIE!!
They are the spawn of Satan!!
They REJECT the words of Jesus outright!
They teach LIES counter to the words of Jesus!

Dogknox

God, you're dumb.
MilitaryAtheist I stick to the scriptures!!
The JW's are a LIE!!
They are the spawn of Satan!!
They REJECT the words of Jesus outright!
They teach LIES counter to the words of Jesus!

Christians believe the scriptures, it is JUST this simple!
I am Christian; The JW is NOT! (Proof? Posted above!!)

Am I dumb, to point to the scriptures!!? I did not write them, I point to them!
Clearly you yourself disagree with the scriptures also... !!

Dogknox

The Bible is a clusterfuck of words.
Dogknox
Posts: 5,043
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11/8/2012 2:45:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/8/2012 2:37:59 PM, MilitaryAtheist wrote:
At 11/8/2012 2:29:14 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 11/8/2012 2:12:28 PM, MilitaryAtheist wrote:
At 11/8/2012 1:50:38 PM, Dogknox wrote:
The JW believe only 144,000 will enter heaven and by coincidence the 144,000 are all JWs!!!

Scriptures reject this JW teaching out right!
1) Scriptures say... The 144,000 are from every tribe of the Jews!! So right off the JW's are NOT JEWS! Proving they are a LIE!

2) Scriptures say the 144,000 are MALES!
Proving the females JW's that are suppose to be part of those entering heaven are also another LIE taught by the JW's!!

3) Scriptures add... the 144,000 MALES are also VIRGINS!!
Again proving the teaching of the JW's is an outright bald faced lie! Most; 90% of the so called saved JW's were married!

4) We can count to 144,000 easy enough!!!
Scriptures say... An UN-countable number stand in heaven>> SAVED!!
Revelation 7:9
[ The Great Multitude in White Robes ] After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.


The JW's are a LIE!!
They are the spawn of Satan!!
They REJECT the words of Jesus outright!
They teach LIES counter to the words of Jesus!

Dogknox

God, you're dumb.
MilitaryAtheist I stick to the scriptures!!
The JW's are a LIE!!
They are the spawn of Satan!!
They REJECT the words of Jesus outright!
They teach LIES counter to the words of Jesus!

Christians believe the scriptures, it is JUST this simple!
I am Christian; The JW is NOT! (Proof? Posted above!!)

Am I dumb, to point to the scriptures!!? I did not write them, I point to them!
Clearly you yourself disagree with the scriptures also... !!

Dogknox

The Bible is a clusterfuck of words.
I reply "So says you"!
I am Christian.. "I don't say that!!"
Christians believe the scriptures are God' words and God cannot lie!

Dogknox
Heineken
Posts: 1,230
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11/8/2012 2:51:54 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Jehovah's Witnesses are cool-aid dishin' cattle, preaching an obvious corruption of a text that's been otherwise unchanged for thousands of years. Let's call 'em at they are....ig'nant.

Problem Solved. Close this thread!
Vidi, vici, veni.
(I saw, I conquered, I came.)
DavidJames1
Posts: 122
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11/8/2012 4:19:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Hi everyone!
I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
I unfortunately do not have the time to elaborate in my own words on this as I have much to do!
Hear is what one of our publications say on the issue:

Does Jesus have his fleshly body in heaven?
1"Cor. 15:42-50, RS: "So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. .".". It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. .".". Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam [Jesus Christ, who was a perfect human as Adam had been at the start] became a life-giving spirit. .".". I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable." (Italics added.)

1"Pet. 3:18, RS: "Christ also died for sins once for all, .".". being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit ["in the spirit," NE, AT, JB, Dy]." (See page 334.)

Illustration: If a man pays a debt for a friend but then promptly takes back the payment, obviously the debt continues. Likewise, if, when he was resurrected, Jesus had taken back his human body of flesh and blood, which had been given in sacrifice to pay the ransom price, what effect would that have had on the provision he was making to relieve faithful persons of the debt of sin?

It is true that Jesus appeared in physical form to his disciples after his resurrection. But on certain occasions, why did they not at first recognize him? (Luke 24:15-32; John 20:14-16) On one occasion, for the benefit of Thomas, Jesus appeared with the physical evidence of nail prints in his hands and a spear wound in his side. But how was it possible on that occasion for him suddenly to appear in their midst even though the doors were locked? (John 20:26,"27) Jesus evidently materialized bodies on these occasions, as angels had done in the past when appearing to humans. Disposing of Jesus" physical body at the time of his resurrection presented no problem for God. Interestingly, although the physical body was not left by God in the tomb (evidently to strengthen the conviction of the disciples that Jesus had actually been raised), the linen cloths in which it had been wrapped were left there; yet, the resurrected Jesus always appeared fully clothed."John 20:6,"7.

And some more:

Was Jesus raised in a body of flesh, and does he have such a body in heaven now?

1"Pet. 3:18: "Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, that he might lead you to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit ["by the Spirit," KJ; "in the spirit," RS, NE, Dy, JB]." (At his resurrection from the dead, Jesus was brought forth with a spirit body. In the Greek text the words "flesh" and "spirit" are put in contrast to each other, and both are in the dative case; so, if a translator uses the rendering "by the spirit" he should also consistently say "by the flesh," or if he uses "in the flesh" he should also say "in the spirit.")

Acts 10:40,"41: "God raised this One [Jesus Christ] up on the third day and granted him to become manifest, not to all the people, but to witnesses appointed beforehand by God." (Why did not others see him too? Because he was a spirit creature and when, as angels had done in the past, he materialized fleshly bodies to make himself visible, he did so only in the presence of his disciples.)

1"Cor. 15:45: "It is even so written: "The first man Adam became a living soul." The last Adam [Jesus Christ, who was perfect as was Adam when created] became a life-giving spirit."

What does Luke 24:36-39 mean regarding the body in which Jesus was resurrected?

Luke 24:36-39: "While they [the disciples] were speaking of these things he himself stood in their midst and said to them: "May you have peace." But because they were terrified, and had become frightened, they were imagining they beheld a spirit. So he said to them: "Why are you troubled, and why is it doubts come up in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; feel me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones just as you behold that I have.""

Humans cannot see spirits, so the disciples evidently thought they were seeing an apparition or a vision. (Compare Mark 6:49,"50.) Jesus assured them that he was no apparition; they could see his body of flesh and could touch him, feeling the bones; he also ate in their presence. Similarly, in the past, angels had materialized in order to be seen by men; they had eaten, and some had even married and fathered children. (Gen. 6:4; 19:1-3) Following his resurrection, Jesus did not always appear in the same body of flesh (perhaps to reinforce in their minds the fact that he was then a spirit), and so he was not immediately recognized even by his close associates. (John 20:14,"15; 21:4-7) However, by his repeatedly appearing to them in materialized bodies and then saying and doing things that they would identify with the Jesus they knew, he strengthened their faith in the fact that he truly had been resurrected from the dead.

If the disciples had actually seen Jesus in the body that he now has in heaven, Paul would not later have referred to the glorified Christ as being "the exact representation of [God"s] very being," because God is a Spirit and has never been in the flesh."Heb. 1:3; compare 1"Timothy 6:16.

When reading the reports of Jesus" postresurrection appearances, we are helped to understand them properly if we keep in mind 1 Peter 3:18 and 1"Corinthians 15:45, quoted on page 334.
DanielChristopherBlowes
Posts: 1,066
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11/8/2012 4:23:48 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/8/2012 1:50:38 PM, Dogknox wrote:
The JW believe only 144,000 will enter heaven and by coincidence the 144,000 are all JWs!!!

Scriptures reject this JW teaching out right!
1) Scriptures say... The 144,000 are from every tribe of the Jews!! So right off the JW's are NOT JEWS! Proving they are a LIE!

2) Scriptures say the 144,000 are MALES!
Proving the females JW's that are suppose to be part of those entering heaven are also another LIE taught by the JW's!!

3) Scriptures add... the 144,000 MALES are also VIRGINS!!
Again proving the teaching of the JW's is an outright bald faced lie! Most; 90% of the so called saved JW's were married!

4) We can count to 144,000 easy enough!!!
Scriptures say... An UN-countable number stand in heaven>> SAVED!!
Revelation 7:9
[ The Great Multitude in White Robes ] After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.


The JW's are a LIE!!
They are the spawn of Satan!!
They REJECT the words of Jesus outright!
They teach LIES counter to the words of Jesus!

Dogknox

They are a cult.

This is what I'm trying to get across to you, we can disagree about every doctrine BAR ONE; the begotten divinity of Jesus Christ.. We are brothers in Christ for this reason alone.. (And many Protestants disagree with me on this)

All cults are deceived on this one point.
Everyone on the side of Truth listens to Me. (Jesus Christ)
DanielChristopherBlowes
Posts: 1,066
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11/8/2012 4:36:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/8/2012 4:28:14 PM, DavidJames1 wrote:
May I please ask what you would define as a cult?
May I also please ask you to then show how that applies to my religion?
Thank you,

Sure, a cult (in this case a Christian cult) is a corruption of an established belief system.

Christianity purports a belief in a trinitarian Godhead, and that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son; God from God.

JWs do not believe the above and have changed scripture in accordance with this error, for instance John 1:1

Like all cults, free inquiry is discouraged as is fraternisation with non members.
Everyone on the side of Truth listens to Me. (Jesus Christ)
DavidJames1
Posts: 122
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11/8/2012 4:49:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/8/2012 4:36:07 PM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 11/8/2012 4:28:14 PM, DavidJames1 wrote:
May I please ask what you would define as a cult?
May I also please ask you to then show how that applies to my religion?
Thank you,

Sure

Thank you

, a cult (in this case a Christian cult) is a corruption of an established belief system.

We are not a corruption of an established belief system but rather a return to the sort of worship that the first century Christians practiced.

Christianity purports a belief in a trinitarian Godhead, and that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son; God from God.

Christianity (Christendom) not the bible. I recognize that the John 1:1 debacle is to say the least controversial among some, but a few bible scholars, unbiased, have praised our translation as being the most accurate. One must also read the rest of the bible and see that everything agrees, not misconstruing one or two scriptures to prove a point. This method can be used to prove that aliens exist and that bones have special powers.
Someone should not read the bible with a preconceived idea and find scriptures to fit it, one should first look at all scriptures in the bible dealing with specific points and then formulate a conclusion on what has been read.

JWs do not believe the above and have changed scripture in accordance with this error, for instance John 1:1

Like all cults, free inquiry is discouraged as is fraternisation with non members.

What do you mean by 'free inquiry?' Sorry, but it is late here in the UK, my brain has done too much today!

Fraternize means dealing with someone in a brotherly or friendly way. We do this all the time by knocking on everyones doors, speaking to people on the street, etc., and sharing with them a wonderful hope for the future. We associate with people at school, college, work, etc. that are not Witnesses. We do not like to associate with 'non-members' unnecessarily as we feel that while people might not do things that disagree with our beliefs they do not encourage us to do what we feel is what we should be doing (if that makes sense).

Thank you for a quick reply.
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Posts: 2,900
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11/8/2012 4:53:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/8/2012 4:49:53 PM, DavidJames1 wrote:
We are not a corruption of an established belief system but rather a return to the sort of worship that the first century Christians practiced.

Proof, plz.

Christianity (Christendom) not the bible. I recognize that the John 1:1 debacle is to say the least controversial among some, but a few bible scholars, unbiased, have praised our translation as being the most accurate. One must also read the rest of the bible and see that everything agrees, not misconstruing one or two scriptures to prove a point. This method can be used to prove that aliens exist and that bones have special powers.

Only a few? :O

Someone should not read the bible with a preconceived idea and find scriptures to fit it, one should first look at all scriptures in the bible dealing with specific points and then formulate a conclusion on what has been read.

Exactly.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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11/8/2012 5:03:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
David,

Thanks a bunch for responding to this thread. When I said I wanted to debate, I meant a formal debate. The problem with debating these topics here on the discussion forum is that there's no tidy stopping place. Sometimes it just comes down to who gets tired of arguing first (and that's usually me). I like the structure of a formal debate because it's fair--each side gets an equal amount of space to make their arguments--and you know when it's going to be over.

Since you have already posted some arguments here, I may go ahead and respond. But before I do, I'm going to hold out for a Jehovah's Witness who will be willing to have a formal debate with me on this subject. I'm afraid if I spell out all my arguments here that it might render a future debate anticlimactic or redundant.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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11/8/2012 5:05:59 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/8/2012 1:50:38 PM, Dogknox wrote:
The JW believe only 144,000 will enter heaven and by coincidence the 144,000 are all JWs!!!

Scriptures reject this JW teaching out right!
1) Scriptures say... The 144,000 are from every tribe of the Jews!! So right off the JW's are NOT JEWS! Proving they are a LIE!

2) Scriptures say the 144,000 are MALES!
Proving the females JW's that are suppose to be part of those entering heaven are also another LIE taught by the JW's!!

3) Scriptures add... the 144,000 MALES are also VIRGINS!!
Again proving the teaching of the JW's is an outright bald faced lie! Most; 90% of the so called saved JW's were married!

4) We can count to 144,000 easy enough!!!
Scriptures say... An UN-countable number stand in heaven>> SAVED!!
Revelation 7:9
[ The Great Multitude in White Robes ] After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.


The JW's are a LIE!!
They are the spawn of Satan!!
They REJECT the words of Jesus outright!
They teach LIES counter to the words of Jesus!

Dogknox

Dognox, I really wish you would tone down the rhetoric. I don't think you're likely to win over any Jehovah's Witnesses with this kind of language. If you saw somebody on the internet speaking about you and your beliefs with this kind of invective, would you be inclined to listen to them? This kind of stuff just promotes a general atmosphere of unpleasantness, and it reduces the chance of any productive conversation taking place.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
DavidJames1
Posts: 122
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11/8/2012 5:08:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/8/2012 5:03:42 PM, philochristos wrote:
David,

Thanks a bunch for responding to this thread. When I said I wanted to debate, I meant a formal debate. The problem with debating these topics here on the discussion forum is that there's no tidy stopping place. Sometimes it just comes down to who gets tired of arguing first (and that's usually me). I like the structure of a formal debate because it's fair--each side gets an equal amount of space to make their arguments--and you know when it's going to be over.

Since you have already posted some arguments here, I may go ahead and respond. But before I do, I'm going to hold out for a Jehovah's Witness who will be willing to have a formal debate with me on this subject. I'm afraid if I spell out all my arguments here that it might render a future debate anticlimactic or redundant.

Sure thing
Perhaps during the holidays at the end of the year I will have a few extra houra to debate with you! I am sure I'll enjoy it. As can probably be concluded by everyone, us Witnesses really enjoy a good discussion! SO anytime that comes about we will 'engage,' so to speak.

Enjoy the rest of your day!

Toodleloo, and all that, I say!
DanielChristopherBlowes
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11/8/2012 5:17:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/8/2012 4:49:53 PM, DavidJames1 wrote:
At 11/8/2012 4:36:07 PM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 11/8/2012 4:28:14 PM, DavidJames1 wrote:
May I please ask what you would define as a cult?
May I also please ask you to then show how that applies to my religion?
Thank you,

Sure

Thank you

, a cult (in this case a Christian cult) is a corruption of an established belief system.

We are not a corruption of an established belief system but rather a return to the sort of worship that the first century Christians practiced.

Christianity purports a belief in a trinitarian Godhead, and that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son; God from God.

Christianity (Christendom) not the bible. I recognize that the John 1:1 debacle is to say the least controversial among some, but a few bible scholars, unbiased, have praised our translation as being the most accurate. One must also read the rest of the bible and see that everything agrees, not misconstruing one or two scriptures to prove a point. This method can be used to prove that aliens exist and that bones have special powers.
Someone should not read the bible with a preconceived idea and find scriptures to fit it, one should first look at all scriptures in the bible dealing with specific points and then formulate a conclusion on what has been read.

JWs do not believe the above and have changed scripture in accordance with this error, for instance John 1:1

Like all cults, free inquiry is discouraged as is fraternisation with non members.

What do you mean by 'free inquiry?' Sorry, but it is late here in the UK, my brain has done too much today!

Fraternize means dealing with someone in a brotherly or friendly way. We do this all the time by knocking on everyones doors, speaking to people on the street, etc., and sharing with them a wonderful hope for the future. We associate with people at school, college, work, etc. that are not Witnesses. We do not like to associate with 'non-members' unnecessarily as we feel that while people might not do things that disagree with our beliefs they do not encourage us to do what we feel is what we should be doing (if that makes sense).

Thank you for a quick reply.

Perhaps a formal debate along the lines of 'the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus Christ is God'?
Everyone on the side of Truth listens to Me. (Jesus Christ)
DavidJames1
Posts: 122
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11/8/2012 5:24:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/8/2012 5:17:44 PM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 11/8/2012 4:49:53 PM, DavidJames1 wrote:
At 11/8/2012 4:36:07 PM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 11/8/2012 4:28:14 PM, DavidJames1 wrote:
May I please ask what you would define as a cult?
May I also please ask you to then show how that applies to my religion?
Thank you,

Sure

Thank you

, a cult (in this case a Christian cult) is a corruption of an established belief system.

We are not a corruption of an established belief system but rather a return to the sort of worship that the first century Christians practiced.

Christianity purports a belief in a trinitarian Godhead, and that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son; God from God.

Christianity (Christendom) not the bible. I recognize that the John 1:1 debacle is to say the least controversial among some, but a few bible scholars, unbiased, have praised our translation as being the most accurate. One must also read the rest of the bible and see that everything agrees, not misconstruing one or two scriptures to prove a point. This method can be used to prove that aliens exist and that bones have special powers.
Someone should not read the bible with a preconceived idea and find scriptures to fit it, one should first look at all scriptures in the bible dealing with specific points and then formulate a conclusion on what has been read.

JWs do not believe the above and have changed scripture in accordance with this error, for instance John 1:1

Like all cults, free inquiry is discouraged as is fraternisation with non members.

What do you mean by 'free inquiry?' Sorry, but it is late here in the UK, my brain has done too much today!

Fraternize means dealing with someone in a brotherly or friendly way. We do this all the time by knocking on everyones doors, speaking to people on the street, etc., and sharing with them a wonderful hope for the future. We associate with people at school, college, work, etc. that are not Witnesses. We do not like to associate with 'non-members' unnecessarily as we feel that while people might not do things that disagree with our beliefs they do not encourage us to do what we feel is what we should be doing (if that makes sense).

Thank you for a quick reply.

Perhaps a formal debate along the lines of 'the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus Christ is God'?

As I have mentioned in a previous post, I am not able to commit to anything like that at the moment. Perhaps in the December holidays.
Our beliefs on this subject are answered on our website:

http://www.jw.org...

Thanks
InsertNameHere
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11/8/2012 5:34:20 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/8/2012 1:50:38 PM, Dogknox wrote:
The JW believe only 144,000 will enter heaven and by coincidence the 144,000 are all JWs!!!

That is exactly one of my issues with them. If only 144,000 can go to heaven then wouldn't all the slots be filled by now? Why continue trying to convert people? O.o
DavidJames1
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11/8/2012 5:36:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/8/2012 5:34:20 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 11/8/2012 1:50:38 PM, Dogknox wrote:
The JW believe only 144,000 will enter heaven and by coincidence the 144,000 are all JWs!!!

That is exactly one of my issues with them. If only 144,000 can go to heaven then wouldn't all the slots be filled by now? Why continue trying to convert people? O.o

Those 144'000 are chosen to be king priests with Jesus Christ over the earth. Everyone else will be able to live happily on a beautiful earth under God's Kingdom. Rev 7:9, 14
Dogknox
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11/8/2012 7:20:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Christ was raised!!!
1 Cor. 15:17
"If Christ has not been raised, your faith is in vain, and you are still in your sins".

Clearly; "Jesus had been RAISED" and the JW's are still in their sins!

Jesus promised he would raise up after death!!
John 2:19
Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."
20 They replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?"
21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body.


Clearly Jesus body was raised up..!!
Clearly the JW's must reject the words of Jesus as LIES!!!

Jesus was risen, he then tells the Apostles.., "See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; feel me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones just as you behold that I have. . . . Do you have something there to eat?" (Luke 24:39, 41)

Luke 24:37
They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost.
CLEARLY: The Apostles THOUGHT he was a SPIRIT!!
The JW's THINK Jesus is SPIRIT! BUT....

But.. The Apostles were convinced Jesus is not a Spirit.. In the Following verses!
This PROVES JW's do not believe as the Apostles do!
This PROVES they do NOT believe as the Early Church believed!

Jesus PROVES all the Apostles have is; Just DOUBTS!!!
38 He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds?
39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."

DavidJames1
DO YOU SEE IT??? a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."

DavidJames1 The JW's reject the scriptures!
They claim they believe as the original Church!!
The Original Church is still around..!!!

The Holy Catholic Church is still the Body of Jesus, Jesus did not leave his body!!!
Matthew 28:20
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

DavidJames1 DO YOU SEE IT??? I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.
Jesus did not leave his Holy Catholic Church, he is NOT with you or your church he is ALWAYS with the only Church he formed!!

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
DavidJames1 The first JW Church appeared 1870's!!
Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The group emerged from the Bible Student movement"founded in the late 1870s by Charles Taze Russell with the formation of Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society......
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

DO YOU SEE IT?? Over Eighteen Hundred years AFTER Jesus formed his CHURCH, your man made church springs up rejecting what CHRISTIANS have always believed!!
DavidJames1 Jesus is STILL with his CHURCH to the very end of the world! Jesus tells you he is "ALWAYS WITH" his Church!
Jesus did not start the JW church, so he is NOT, he CANNOT now be with your JW Church!!!!
Jesus is ALWAYS with his BRIDE to the end of the world!

The JW rejects the scriptures!! I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

Clearly...Rejecting the words of God is rejecting GOD!
DavidJames1 Your church is the spawn of Satan not of God, you reject the scriptures!!! Proving you are NOT Christian!

Christian are CHRISTIAN simple because they believe the scriptures are NOT lies!

Dogknox
Dogknox
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11/8/2012 7:39:58 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
DavidJames1 you said.. Those 144'000 are chosen to be king priests with Jesus Christ over the earth. Everyone else will be able to live happily on a beautiful earth under God's Kingdom. Rev 7:9, 14

I reply..
DavidJames1 YES 144,000 JEWS from all the tribes of the JEWS!

Revelation 14:3
And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.
5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.


DO YOU SEE IT??? Verse #4 (above)
144,000 MALE VIRGINS!!!
Effectively leaving ALL JW's out of heaven!!

DO YOU SEE IT??? Verse #5 (above)
No lie was found in their mouths
AGAIN.. Effectively leaving ALL JW's out of heaven .. How many times have the "Watch Tower" pronounced the "End of the World"! THEY LIE they are the prodigy of the Father of LIES!

144,000 is not that hard to count up to!!
Rev 7:9
After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

AFTER THIS I LOOKED!!!!!
After the 144,000 he looked and saw MORE..
He saw OTHERS... Other peoples MORE then the 144,000 in heaven!
These words.. "AFTER THIS I LOOKED!!!!!" comes AFTER the 144,000 JEWS of every tribe!!
"AFTER THIS I LOOKED" and SAW a multitude that no one could count!
No one can count into the BILLIONS.. 144,000 is COUNTABLE!!

144,000 is COUNTABLE PROVING the JW's "Watchtower" is a LIE!!!
THEY SAY.... "ONLY" 144,000 enter heaven!!!!
THEY HAVE TO REJECT THE SCRIPTURES!

DavidJames1 144,000 MALE virgins in heaven leaves "Peter" out of Heaven!
It leaves "Mary" out of heaven!
DavidJames1 IT PROVES beyond all doubt, you are NOT christian the "Watch Tower" is a pawn of Satan!

DavidJames1 Run from Satan, run from the "Watch Tower"!!

Dogknox
annanicole
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11/8/2012 7:45:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/8/2012 5:05:59 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 11/8/2012 1:50:38 PM, Dogknox wrote:
The JW believe only 144,000 will enter heaven and by coincidence the 144,000 are all JWs!!!

Scriptures reject this JW teaching out right!
1) Scriptures say... The 144,000 are from every tribe of the Jews!! So right off the JW's are NOT JEWS! Proving they are a LIE!

2) Scriptures say the 144,000 are MALES!
Proving the females JW's that are suppose to be part of those entering heaven are also another LIE taught by the JW's!!

3) Scriptures add... the 144,000 MALES are also VIRGINS!!
Again proving the teaching of the JW's is an outright bald faced lie! Most; 90% of the so called saved JW's were married!

4) We can count to 144,000 easy enough!!!
Scriptures say... An UN-countable number stand in heaven>> SAVED!!
Revelation 7:9
[ The Great Multitude in White Robes ] After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.


The JW's are a LIE!!
They are the spawn of Satan!!
They REJECT the words of Jesus outright!
They teach LIES counter to the words of Jesus!

Dogknox

Dognox, I really wish you would tone down the rhetoric. I don't think you're likely to win over any Jehovah's Witnesses with this kind of language.

Well, the Bible speaks of a zeal without knowledge, and I have never questioned Dogknox's sincerity or zeal. He simply lacks a good working knowledge of the Bible, and it saddens me that he adheres to a theological system which, despite their current and vehement protest to the contrary, has historically discouraged Bible study.

If you saw somebody on the internet speaking about you and your beliefs with this kind of invective, would you be inclined to listen to them?

His tone and "invective" do not bother me, but then again, I am not easily offended. I'll simply dish it right back. My dad used to take me quail hunting and sometimes I'd shoot a rabbit: I learned that when your shooting low game, you have to aim low.

This kind of stuff just promotes a general atmosphere of unpleasantness, and it reduces the chance of any productive conversation taking place.

In general, yes. In my calmer and more collected moments, I try to put myself in his shoes: how would I act, what would I say, how would I conduct myself if I found myself trying in vain to defend the indefensible. Would I actually change my views? Dunno.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
Malachi30
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11/9/2012 3:42:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?"unless indeed you are disqualified.
DanielChristopherBlowes
Posts: 1,066
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11/9/2012 3:47:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/8/2012 5:24:05 PM, DavidJames1 wrote:
At 11/8/2012 5:17:44 PM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 11/8/2012 4:49:53 PM, DavidJames1 wrote:
At 11/8/2012 4:36:07 PM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 11/8/2012 4:28:14 PM, DavidJames1 wrote:
May I please ask what you would define as a cult?
May I also please ask you to then show how that applies to my religion?
Thank you,

Sure

Thank you

, a cult (in this case a Christian cult) is a corruption of an established belief system.

We are not a corruption of an established belief system but rather a return to the sort of worship that the first century Christians practiced.

Christianity purports a belief in a trinitarian Godhead, and that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son; God from God.

Christianity (Christendom) not the bible. I recognize that the John 1:1 debacle is to say the least controversial among some, but a few bible scholars, unbiased, have praised our translation as being the most accurate. One must also read the rest of the bible and see that everything agrees, not misconstruing one or two scriptures to prove a point. This method can be used to prove that aliens exist and that bones have special powers.
Someone should not read the bible with a preconceived idea and find scriptures to fit it, one should first look at all scriptures in the bible dealing with specific points and then formulate a conclusion on what has been read.

JWs do not believe the above and have changed scripture in accordance with this error, for instance John 1:1

Like all cults, free inquiry is discouraged as is fraternisation with non members.

What do you mean by 'free inquiry?' Sorry, but it is late here in the UK, my brain has done too much today!

Fraternize means dealing with someone in a brotherly or friendly way. We do this all the time by knocking on everyones doors, speaking to people on the street, etc., and sharing with them a wonderful hope for the future. We associate with people at school, college, work, etc. that are not Witnesses. We do not like to associate with 'non-members' unnecessarily as we feel that while people might not do things that disagree with our beliefs they do not encourage us to do what we feel is what we should be doing (if that makes sense).

Thank you for a quick reply.

Perhaps a formal debate along the lines of 'the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus Christ is God'?

As I have mentioned in a previous post, I am not able to commit to anything like that at the moment. Perhaps in the December holidays.
Our beliefs on this subject are answered on our website:

http://www.jw.org...

Thanks

Hence my 'free enquiry' statement..
Everyone on the side of Truth listens to Me. (Jesus Christ)
MouthWash
Posts: 2,607
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11/9/2012 4:28:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
If there are they'd be run off of the site?
"Well, that gives whole new meaning to my assassination. If I was going to die anyway, perhaps I should leave the Bolsheviks' descendants some Christmas cookies instead of breaking their dishes and vodka bottles in their sleep." -Tsar Nicholas II (YYW)