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I knew a former Jehovah's Witness

falconduler
Posts: 228
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11/13/2012 4:50:31 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Some years ago I met a baptist pastor who told me his father was a J.W. in Germany during the 3rd. Reich. He learned from his father what happened to him during his incarceration period in a C.C. ..
Let's call him Fritz.. Fritz was a J.W. leader, these folks do not have pastors or ministers but refer to their leaders simply as elders . And the order came down from Himmler's desk ,co-signed by the Fuhrer that all J.W. leaders are to be rounded up.

Since he was a German of good stock,he still was bound to give the Hitler salute ,even in prison. Jews were exempt.

But J.W.s as you know refuse to pay homage to any national emblem ,flag or leader. And so this caused a problem for the two S.S. guards that daily tapped on the bars of his cell and greeted him with the H.H.
Fritz simply shook his head from left to right with his lips sealed. And he was obstinate ,despite the pleadings from the guards that the law was the law, and if he didn't comply they would have to come in and rough him up with their batons.

And this they did ,relunctantly. Remember Fritz was from good stock.

At some point they told Fritz that if they continued beating him they would wind up killing him ,which they did not want to do, But Fritz refused to salute.
The S.S. was starting to look incompetent ,but what to do.
They decided to simply assign fritz to the honey bucket detail ,over where the poles,jews,gypsies and homos were beind lodged. This was a 6 month assignment that rotated among the prisoners. No one on this detail was required to salute and so fritz was spared .At least for six months.

After the detail was finished ,Fritz was returned back to his cell, and sure enough the same two guards walked by and tapped on the bars with the customary HEIL HITLER FRITZ. This time FRITZ jumped up and at attention yelled back HEIL HITLER my S.S. men ,my comrades! What a difference six months on the honey bucket detail can make!
Psychologists explain it by saying that this detail was so humiliating,degrading and disgusting that it broke down all resistance. It in effect tore Fritz's psyche and ability to see himself as having any sense of personal self worth ,and with it any sense of ideology or purpose in life.

He survived the war and his son converted to the Christian Faith becoming a pastor. And told me this story to reflect the great ideological and religious conflicts that Germans faced ,in addition to the political.
devotchka
Posts: 4
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11/13/2012 10:01:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
This is a very interesting story, I enjoyed reading it!
I've studied the mind and mental process for many years and am quite intrigued with the given psychological theory. I believe that in a similar way to giving up faith;
this is also the way faith is gained.

I've been an Atheist for many years, but looking at this from a psychological aspect we can see two things:

I ) Disregard/Gain of religion due to compliance
II ) The social effect of surroundings.

I ) If we look at the vast percentages of religious development, we see that this is introduced in our younger/infant years. As a result of this, as children, we are taught to abide by the teachings of whichever (if any) faith we are led to. This usually also carries across with Christenings etc. This is not a choice, but something we are taught to be true.

The disregard of religion falls into a similar category, we also look at how falling within the constraints of certain situations can cause us to refute faith. As an example: as a schoolchild, when I WAS religious, it was frequently deemed "un-cool" to be seen as a follower or a believer in a deity. As a repercussion of this, I was often co-erced into denying religion and the existence of God. I believe this can applied to similar social situations.

II ) Where we are, and our surroundings essentially dictate our religious choices wholly. You mentioned in your story that obviously due to the mental and physical struggle, the person gave in and conceded. This is quite commonly the case, as we understand that psychologically, it would be safer to assume people, in an act of self-preservation would deny or refute beliefs in order to escape further torture.

In addition, monotonous repetitive work allows a lot more of the unconscious mind to reveal itself, as tasks become second nature, we enter trance state. IE when watching television, or doing an uninteresting activity. Our unconscious mind is highly susceptible to triggered thoughts, ideas or beliefs.

Thanks very much for sharing your story again! Pleasure :)
kjw47
Posts: 1,624
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11/14/2012 7:39:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/13/2012 4:50:31 PM, falconduler wrote:
Some years ago I met a baptist pastor who told me his father was a J.W. in Germany during the 3rd. Reich. He learned from his father what happened to him during his incarceration period in a C.C. ..
Let's call him Fritz.. Fritz was a J.W. leader, these folks do not have pastors or ministers but refer to their leaders simply as elders . And the order came down from Himmler's desk ,co-signed by the Fuhrer that all J.W. leaders are to be rounded up.

Since he was a German of good stock,he still was bound to give the Hitler salute ,even in prison. Jews were exempt.

But J.W.s as you know refuse to pay homage to any national emblem ,flag or leader. And so this caused a problem for the two S.S. guards that daily tapped on the bars of his cell and greeted him with the H.H.
Fritz simply shook his head from left to right with his lips sealed. And he was obstinate ,despite the pleadings from the guards that the law was the law, and if he didn't comply they would have to come in and rough him up with their batons.

And this they did ,relunctantly. Remember Fritz was from good stock.

At some point they told Fritz that if they continued beating him they would wind up killing him ,which they did not want to do, But Fritz refused to salute.
The S.S. was starting to look incompetent ,but what to do.
They decided to simply assign fritz to the honey bucket detail ,over where the poles,jews,gypsies and homos were beind lodged. This was a 6 month assignment that rotated among the prisoners. No one on this detail was required to salute and so fritz was spared .At least for six months.

After the detail was finished ,Fritz was returned back to his cell, and sure enough the same two guards walked by and tapped on the bars with the customary HEIL HITLER FRITZ. This time FRITZ jumped up and at attention yelled back HEIL HITLER my S.S. men ,my comrades! What a difference six months on the honey bucket detail can make!
Psychologists explain it by saying that this detail was so humiliating,degrading and disgusting that it broke down all resistance. It in effect tore Fritz's psyche and ability to see himself as having any sense of personal self worth ,and with it any sense of ideology or purpose in life.

He survived the war and his son converted to the Christian Faith becoming a pastor. And told me this story to reflect the great ideological and religious conflicts that Germans faced ,in addition to the political.

I guess the moral of the story is this-- We find at rev 16) that satan will mislead every kingdom( govt,armies,supporters) to stand in opposition to God at Harmageddon--that is 99% of mankind minimum---- which means that at minimum 99% are being mislead now,also then during those wars and Gods word shows all the way back to Jesus day when satan offered to Jesus every kingdom of the earth to do an act of worship to him. All through the ot except when the israelites were faithful, but every other kingdom was owned by satan. I think this world needs to take one step back and take another look at where they are being lead.
devotchka
Posts: 4
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11/14/2012 8:02:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago



I guess the moral of the story is this-- We find at rev 16) that satan will mislead every kingdom( govt,armies,supporters) to stand in opposition to God at Harmageddon--that is 99% of mankind minimum---- which means that at minimum 99% are being mislead now,also then during those wars and Gods word shows all the way back to Jesus day when satan offered to Jesus every kingdom of the earth to do an act of worship to him. All through the ot except when the israelites were faithful, but every other kingdom was owned by satan. I think this world needs to take one step back and take another look at where they are being lead.t

=================================================

Not only is this factually inaccurate, it is also statistically inaccurate. Polling in American alone shows that 78.4% of people are Christians, other religions, i.e Judaism chime in at 4.7% with 16.1% being unaffiliated with religion. To claim that 99% of theistic people are being mislead would be sourceless and uninformed.

In addition, although I am an Atheist...define Satan. Because from a recent survey I did, without quoting the bible, the vast majority of Christians use "Satan" to justify or neglect something they don't personally believe in, not what any form of scripture informs them.
falconduler
Posts: 228
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11/15/2012 4:54:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/13/2012 10:01:56 PM, devotchka wrote:
This is a very interesting story, I enjoyed reading it!
I've studied the mind and mental process for many years and am quite intrigued with the given psychological theory. I believe that in a similar way to giving up faith;
this is also the way faith is gained.

I've been an Atheist for many years, but looking at this from a psychological aspect we can see two things:

I ) Disregard/Gain of religion due to compliance
II ) The social effect of surroundings.

I ) If we look at the vast percentages of religious development, we see that this is introduced in our younger/infant years. As a result of this, as children, we are taught to abide by the teachings of whichever (if any) faith we are led to. This usually also carries across with Christenings etc. This is not a choice, but something we are taught to be true.

The disregard of religion falls into a similar category, we also look at how falling within the constraints of certain situations can cause us to refute faith. As an example: as a schoolchild, when I WAS religious, it was frequently deemed "un-cool" to be seen as a follower or a believer in a deity. As a repercussion of this, I was often co-erced into denying religion and the existence of God. I believe this can applied to similar social situations.

II ) Where we are, and our surroundings essentially dictate our religious choices wholly. You mentioned in your story that obviously due to the mental and physical struggle, the person gave in and conceded. This is quite commonly the case, as we understand that psychologically, it would be safer to assume people, in an act of self-preservation would deny or refute beliefs in order to escape further torture.

In addition, monotonous repetitive work allows a lot more of the unconscious mind to reveal itself, as tasks become second nature, we enter trance state. IE when watching television, or doing an uninteresting activity. Our unconscious mind is highly susceptible to triggered thoughts, ideas or beliefs.

Thanks very much for sharing your story again! Pleasure :)
The pastor also related to me that in the spring of 41 ,it seemed that Germany could win the war. Rommel was gaining in north africa and the blitz was taking its toll on the brits.
He stated that an advisory letter was sent to pastors and ministers of various splinter groups ,among them the 7day adventists, to prepare their church members for relocation , soon after the end of the war. in the summer germany hit the soviets and this Fuhrer order was shelved.