Total Posts:32|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

God"s law versus secular law. Which is moral?

GreatestIam
Posts: 1,723
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/15/2012 6:56:47 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
God"s law versus secular law. Which is moral?

Our literature is rife with criticisms of God"s laws denouncing them as immoral.
This is mostly done by non-believers and secular law makers and even many believers. The whole world has rejected the morality of God"s law.

Satan shall deceive the whole world. That is scripture.

Believers say that God"s laws are moral; yet very few believers are trying to push for adoption of God"s laws by secular governments.

If believers believed that God"s laws are moral, it follows that they would be trying to have them implemented by governments. Strangely, they do not.

Can a believer believe in God yet not believe in his laws?

No believer is living by God"s law.

If believers believe in God"s laws, should believers be living by them?

Law without punishment is impotent law.

Should believers demand that secular law use God"s punishments where those few laws are basically identical?

Regards
DL
DavidJames1
Posts: 122
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/15/2012 5:15:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/15/2012 6:56:47 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
God"s law versus secular law. Which is moral?

Our literature is rife with criticisms of God"s laws denouncing them as immoral.
This is mostly done by non-believers and secular law makers and even many believers. The whole world has rejected the morality of God"s law.

Satan shall deceive the whole world. That is scripture.

Believers say that God"s laws are moral; yet very few believers are trying to push for adoption of God"s laws by secular governments.

If believers believed that God"s laws are moral, it follows that they would be trying to have them implemented by governments. Strangely, they do not.

Can a believer believe in God yet not believe in his laws?

No believer is living by God"s law.

If believers believe in God"s laws, should believers be living by them?

Law without punishment is impotent law.

Should believers demand that secular law use God"s punishments where those few laws are basically identical?

Regards
DL

God's Kingdom is no part of this world. Therefore, Christians should not get involved in politics of any kind.
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Posts: 2,900
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/15/2012 5:19:40 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/15/2012 5:15:50 PM, DavidJames1 wrote:
God's Kingdom is no part of this world. Therefore, Christians should not get involved in politics of any kind.

Non sequitur.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
DavidJames1
Posts: 122
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/15/2012 5:24:08 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/15/2012 5:19:40 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 11/15/2012 5:15:50 PM, DavidJames1 wrote:
God's Kingdom is no part of this world. Therefore, Christians should not get involved in politics of any kind.

Non sequitur.

Why?
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Posts: 2,900
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/15/2012 5:24:53 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/15/2012 5:24:08 PM, DavidJames1 wrote:
At 11/15/2012 5:19:40 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 11/15/2012 5:15:50 PM, DavidJames1 wrote:
God's Kingdom is no part of this world. Therefore, Christians should not get involved in politics of any kind.

Non sequitur.

Why?

Because it is. God's Kingdom not being part of this world does not logically imply that Christians have no business in politics of any kind.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
Koopin
Posts: 12,090
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/15/2012 5:34:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/15/2012 5:24:53 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 11/15/2012 5:24:08 PM, DavidJames1 wrote:
At 11/15/2012 5:19:40 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 11/15/2012 5:15:50 PM, DavidJames1 wrote:
God's Kingdom is no part of this world. Therefore, Christians should not get involved in politics of any kind.

Non sequitur.

Why?

Because it is. God's Kingdom not being part of this world does not logically imply that Christians have no business in politics of any kind.

+1
kfc
DavidJames1
Posts: 122
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/15/2012 5:37:04 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/15/2012 5:24:53 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 11/15/2012 5:24:08 PM, DavidJames1 wrote:
At 11/15/2012 5:19:40 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 11/15/2012 5:15:50 PM, DavidJames1 wrote:
God's Kingdom is no part of this world. Therefore, Christians should not get involved in politics of any kind.

Non sequitur.

Why?

Because it is. God's Kingdom not being part of this world does not logically imply that Christians have no business in politics of any kind.

John 17:6, John 6:15, John 18:36, James 4:4.

Why is this so?
1 John 5:19, John 14:30.

We can only expect false religion to get involved in politics. Revelation 17, 18 tell us about the harlot who committed fornication with the kings of the earth.

Getting involved in politics also shows a lack of faith and trust in God's Kingdom.
Jesus told us to pray for God's kingdom to come, his will to be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Our allegiance is with God, not with any human politician. Jeremiah 10:23. Ecclesiastes 8:9. Psalms 146:3

Stay away from futile human politics.

David
Koopin
Posts: 12,090
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/15/2012 5:38:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/15/2012 5:37:04 PM, DavidJames1 wrote:

Getting involved in politics also shows a lack of faith and trust in God's Kingdom.
Jesus told us to pray for God's kingdom to come, his will to be done on earth as it is in heaven.

If I break into your house and you have a gun, is shooting me showing a lack of faith and trust in God?
kfc
DavidJames1
Posts: 122
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/15/2012 5:42:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/15/2012 5:38:50 PM, Koopin wrote:
At 11/15/2012 5:37:04 PM, DavidJames1 wrote:

Getting involved in politics also shows a lack of faith and trust in God's Kingdom.
Jesus told us to pray for God's kingdom to come, his will to be done on earth as it is in heaven.

If I break into your house and you have a gun, is shooting me showing a lack of faith and trust in God?

The bible shows clearly that God has a purpose for this planet. If we start getting involved in politics, thus relying on ourselves to make this world better, we are disregarding God's purpose.

I wouldn't have gun, but this is a debate about politics and religion, not self-defence.
I would defend myself, but how would this show a lack of faith and trust in God?
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Posts: 2,900
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/15/2012 5:51:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/15/2012 5:37:04 PM, DavidJames1 wrote:

I will quote every single scripture.

John 17:6,

'I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou hast given me out of the world. Thine they were, and to me thou gavest them; and they have kept thy word.'

I think you probably just picked this because it had the word 'world' in it, because it doesn't really have anything to do with what you said.

John 6:15,

'Jesus therefore, when he knew that they would come to take him by force, and make him king, fled again into the mountain himself alone.'

Again, doesn't really support your argument at all.

John 18:36,

'Jesus answered: My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would certainly strive that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now my kingdom is not from hence.'

I agreed with this, but it's still a non-sequitur.

James 4:4.

'Adulterers, know you not that the friendship of this world is the enemy of God? Whosoever therefore will be a friend of this world, becometh an enemy of God.'

A 'friend of the world' is one who neglects the glory of God in favor of the pleasures of the world/material rewards. Taking an active role in politics is not at all relatable to this.

Why is this so?

1 John 5:19,

'We know that we are of God, and the whole world is seated in wickedness.'

So?

John 14:30.

'I will not now speak many things with you. For the prince of this world cometh, and in me he hath not any thing.'

So?

We can only expect false religion to get involved in politics. Revelation 17, 18 tell us about the harlot who committed fornication with the kings of the earth.

That's ridiculous. You're making the exact same non-sequitur argument as before, just this time you've thrown in a couple of scriptural passages without explanation.

Committing fornication with implies collusion, or a degree of cooperation, with the worldly desires. That is in no way relatable to taking a stand for God against immorality.

Getting involved in politics also shows a lack of faith and trust in God's Kingdom.

lol, how

Jesus told us to pray for God's kingdom to come, his will to be done on earth as it is in heaven.

So?

Our allegiance is with God, not with any human politician. Jeremiah 10:23.

'I know, O Lord, that the way of a man is not his: neither is it in a man to walk, and to direct his steps.'

So?

Ecclesiastes 8:9.

'All these things I have considered, and applied my heart to all the works that are done under the sun. Sometimes one man ruleth over another to his own hurt.'

Sometimes...

Psalms 146:3

The Psalm I got was completely unrelated, so I didn't even bother to quote it. The Psalms are always bizarre like that.

Stay away from futile human politics.

'Futile'? How mean you 'futile'? They're certainly capable of doing things.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
DavidJames1
Posts: 122
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/15/2012 6:12:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/15/2012 5:51:17 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 11/15/2012 5:37:04 PM, DavidJames1 wrote:

I will quote every single scripture.

John 17:6,

'I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou hast given me out of the world. Thine they were, and to me thou gavest them; and they have kept thy word.'

I think you probably just picked this because it had the word 'world' in it, because it doesn't really have anything to do with what you said.

Sorry, typing error, I meant John 17:16

John 6:15,

'Jesus therefore, when he knew that they would come to take him by force, and make him king, fled again into the mountain himself alone.'

Again, doesn't really support your argument at all.

Jesus had a chance to become a king and think how wonderful a king he would have been, all the good he could have done as a perfect man! But he didn't. God already had a purpose for the earth and Jesus knew about this. Him coming to the earth proves this.

John 18:36,

'Jesus answered: My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would certainly strive that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now my kingdom is not from hence.'

I agreed with this, but it's still a non-sequitur.

Why?

James 4:4.

'Adulterers, know you not that the friendship of this world is the enemy of God? Whosoever therefore will be a friend of this world, becometh an enemy of God.'

A 'friend of the world' is one who neglects the glory of God in favor of the pleasures of the world/material rewards. Taking an active role in politics is not at all relatable to this.

By having an active role in politics you are making yourself a friend of the world.

Why is this so?

1 John 5:19,

'We know that we are of God, and the whole world is seated in wickedness.'

So?

Read this scripture in a word for word from the Greek translation and one will see that it refers to the 'wicked one.' This is confirmed in Matthew 4. Jesus was offered by Satan all the kingdoms of the world. This would have been a silly, stupid offer had not Satan actually owned or controlled all the kingdoms.

John 14:30.

'I will not now speak many things with you. For the prince of this world cometh, and in me he hath not any thing.'

So?

Read this verse in a diaglott too. IT refers to the one who is ruling the world. HE has nothing. No hold over Christ.
Read also, 2 Corinthians 4:4. God of this system of things has blinded minds of unbelievers.

We can only expect false religion to get involved in politics. Revelation 17, 18 tell us about the harlot who committed fornication with the kings of the earth.

That's ridiculous. You're making the exact same non-sequitur argument as before, just this time you've thrown in a couple of scriptural passages without explanation.

Committing fornication with implies collusion, or a degree of cooperation, with the worldly desires. That is in no way relatable to taking a stand for God against immorality.

She commits fornication with the 'kings of the earth,' this refers to the rulers of the world, in our days, politicians!


Getting involved in politics also shows a lack of faith and trust in God's Kingdom.

lol, how

Buy getting involved in politics we show that we don't really want to wait for God to fulfil his purpose, rather we'd like to do things our way and in our time!

Jesus told us to pray for God's kingdom to come, his will to be done on earth as it is in heaven.

So?

Jesus had the right focus. Wait for God's will to be done on the earth as it is in heaven. This is still to take place!

Our allegiance is with God, not with any human politician. Jeremiah 10:23.

'I know, O Lord, that the way of a man is not his: neither is it in a man to walk, and to direct his steps.'

So?

We are not designed to be governed by other men for we do not even have the capacity to direct our own steps!

Ecclesiastes 8:9.

'All these things I have considered, and applied my heart to all the works that are done under the sun. Sometimes one man ruleth over another to his own hurt.'

Sometimes...

Yes, and we can see evidence of this in the world, can we not.

Psalms 146:3

The Psalm I got was completely unrelated, so I didn't even bother to quote it. The Psalms are always bizarre like that.

Still, quote it from your bible please.

Stay away from futile human politics.

'Futile'? How mean you 'futile'? They're certainly capable of doing things.

Whatever they do, whatever small things they achieve, they will never bring peace to the earth, get rid of sickness and death or make the earth beautiful.
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Posts: 2,900
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/16/2012 5:26:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/15/2012 6:12:03 PM, DavidJames1 wrote:
Sorry, typing error, I meant John 17:16

'They are not of the world, as I also am not of the world.

So? It clearly means don't be worldly. I don't extrapolate that to interpret a complete lack of political activity.

'Jesus therefore, when he knew that they would come to take him by force, and make him king, fled again into the mountain himself alone.'
Jesus had a chance to become a king and think how wonderful a king he would have been, all the good he could have done as a perfect man! But he didn't. God already had a purpose for the earth and Jesus knew about this. Him coming to the earth proves this.

Jesus already had a purpose, and it wasn't to be king.

'Jesus answered: My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would certainly strive that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now my kingdom is not from hence.'
Why?

His kingdom isn't of this world... so we shouldn't ever involve ourselves in politics. Doesn't follow.

'Adulterers, know you not that the friendship of this world is the enemy of God? Whosoever therefore will be a friend of this world, becometh an enemy of God.'

A 'friend of the world' is one who neglects the glory of God in favor of the pleasures of the world/material rewards. Taking an active role in politics is not at all relatable to this.

By having an active role in politics you are making yourself a friend of the world.

No you're not. If I'm reveling in my worldly political power, then maybe I am a friend of the world, but if I'm just participating that doesn't make me a friend of the world.

'We know that we are of God, and the whole world is seated in wickedness.'

So?

Read this scripture in a word for word from the Greek translation and one will see that it refers to the 'wicked one.' This is confirmed in Matthew 4. Jesus was offered by Satan all the kingdoms of the world. This would have been a silly, stupid offer had not Satan actually owned or controlled all the kingdoms.

It was a silly stupid offer. Satan was tempting him. Satan doesn't have to be honest when he's trying to make you sin, of course he's able to lie.

If the whole world is under the power of the wicked one, then so is the Watchtower Society. So you can't trust anything. I think Jesus was probably referring to the tendency of man to sin.

'I will not now speak many things with you. For the prince of this world cometh, and in me he hath not any thing.'

So?

Read this verse in a diaglott too. IT refers to the one who is ruling the world. HE has nothing. No hold over Christ.

So? Of course he doesn't. No one has any hold over Christ.

Read also, 2 Corinthians 4:4. God of this system of things has blinded minds of unbelievers.

I don't see what this has to do with anything.

Committing fornication with implies collusion, or a degree of cooperation, with the worldly desires. That is in no way relatable to taking a stand for God against immorality.

She commits fornication with the 'kings of the earth,' this refers to the rulers of the world, in our days, politicians!

????

lol, how

Buy getting involved in politics we show that we don't really want to wait for God to fulfil his purpose, rather we'd like to do things our way and in our time!

By doing anything, we show that we don't really want to wait for God to fulfill his purpose then. Let's just sit around like lumps, after all God will do what he wants to do, and by me just sitting here I'm showing that I trust he'll get what he wants to do done without any help from me.

So?

Jesus had the right focus. Wait for God's will to be done on the earth as it is in heaven. This is still to take place!

In the interim, does it make any sense to just let the world trample you?

'I know, O Lord, that the way of a man is not his: neither is it in a man to walk, and to direct his steps.'

So?

We are not designed to be governed by other men for we do not even have the capacity to direct our own steps!

We're being governed by other men, though, and you're saying rather than act, we should just sit there and let it happen. Holocaust? Let's not involve ourselves in the world, let it happen. Yes, that's a reductio.

'All these things I have considered, and applied my heart to all the works that are done under the sun. Sometimes one man ruleth over another to his own hurt.'

Sometimes...

Yes, and we can see evidence of this in the world, can we not.

Yes. Doesn't mean we shouldn't ever involve in politics.

Still, quote it from your bible please.

'Who healeth the broken of heart, and bindeth up their bruises.'

Whatever they do, whatever small things they achieve, they will never bring peace to the earth, get rid of sickness and death or make the earth beautiful.

No matter what I do, no matter whatever small things I achieve, I'll never fix absolutely everything. So I might as well just lump around, since I can't make everything perfect.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
DavidJames1
Posts: 122
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/16/2012 6:06:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/16/2012 5:26:56 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 11/15/2012 6:12:03 PM, DavidJames1 wrote:
'They are not of the world, as I also am not of the world.

So? It clearly means don't be worldly. I don't extrapolate that to interpret a complete lack of political activity.

What part of 'not of the world' or as it says in other translations 'no part of the world' suggests to you that we can get involved in the political part of it? This is a pretty big 'part' of the world.

Jesus already had a purpose, and it wasn't to be king.

Exactly, and he knew that his dying was part of God's purpose for the earth. Jesus referred to it in MAtthew 6:9-11. Jesus dying was part of that purpose and also a part fulfilment of that first prophecy recorded in the bible, Genesis 3:15. Jesus was 'bruised in the heel.' So God has a plan to sort the earth out, it would be wise for us to wait for Him to sort it out in His own due time and way. Jesus expressed the fact that God already had a day and hour planned when He (God) would accomplish His purpose. Matthew 24:36.

His kingdom isn't of this world... so we shouldn't ever involve ourselves in politics. Doesn't follow.

By getting involved in earthly politics we are showing God that we are trying to take things into our own hands.

By having an active role in politics you are making yourself a friend of the world. (James 4:4)

No you're not. If I'm reveling in my worldly political power, then maybe I am a friend of the world, but if I'm just participating that doesn't make me a friend of the world.

Why not?

'We know that we are of God, and the whole world is seated in wickedness.'

So?

Read this scripture in a word for word from the Greek translation and one will see that it refers to the 'wicked one.' This is confirmed in Matthew 4. Jesus was offered by Satan all the kingdoms of the world. This would have been a silly, stupid offer had not Satan actually owned or controlled all the kingdoms.

It was a silly stupid offer. Satan was tempting him. Satan doesn't have to be honest when he's trying to make you sin, of course he's able to lie.

If the whole world is under the power of the wicked one, then so is the Watchtower Society. So you can't trust anything. I think Jesus was probably referring to the tendency of man to sin.

This is why we have nothing to do with the 'world.' Except that we tell the 'world' about God's purpose for the earth. A topic most Christians are silent about, more the main reason that there is no consistency among them as to waht they believe God's Kingdom is!

'I will not now speak many things with you. For the prince of this world cometh, and in me he hath not any thing.'

So?

Read this verse in a diaglott too. IT refers to the one who is ruling the world. HE has nothing. No hold over Christ.

So? Of course he doesn't. No one has any hold over Christ.

But it refers to the one ruling the world. HAving nothing to do with Christ. This refers to the same person as in 2 Cor 4:4, 1 John 5:19, Revelation 12:9.

Read also, 2 Corinthians 4:4. God of this system of things has blinded minds of unbelievers.

I don't see what this has to do with anything.

The world is in the power of this 'wicked one', Satan the Devil. He is referred to as the 'god of this system of things.' By getting involved in worldly politics, we are getting involved in what is controlled by the Devil.
Daniel 10:12-14 shows that wicked spirit forces are very involved in the politics of the world.

She commits fornication with the 'kings of the earth,' this refers to the rulers of the world, in our days, politicians!

????

Why the question marks?

By doing anything, we show that we don't really want to wait for God to fulfill his purpose then. Let's just sit around like lumps, after all God will do what he wants to do, and by me just sitting here I'm showing that I trust he'll get what he wants to do done without any help from me.

This is a discussion about politics. God has a job for his servants on earth to do. MAtthew 28:19, 20. Also Matthew 24:14. Preach the Good News of God's Kingdom. We are involved in the outworking of God's purpose. He has dignified faithfula and loyal ones on the earth with proclaiming this wonderful 'good news' about something better. The figurative 'new heavens and new earth.' 2 Peter 3:13

In the interim, does it make any sense to just let the world trample you?

Yes. We are to expect this! Matthew 24:9

We are not designed to be governed by other men for we do not even have the capacity to direct our own steps! (Jeremiah 10:23)

We're being governed by other men, though, and you're saying rather than act, we should just sit there and let it happen. Holocaust? Let's not involve ourselves in the world, let it happen. Yes, that's a reductio.

We are not designed to govern each other. This is not how God meant for us to live. We have to sit tight and wait for Him to act. God will hold all those responsible for what they have done! Romans 12:19. However, we endure these things with God's spirit and thus benefit, we are joyful! (Jehovah's Witnesses were tortured and executed in those concentration camps too). James 1:2-4 shows that we can see it as joy when we meet with various trials. Also, we make God happy. Proverbs 27:11.

Yes, and we can see evidence of this in the world, can we not. (Eccl 8:9)

Yes. Doesn't mean we shouldn't ever involve in politics.

Man trying to govern man, no matter how good his intentions are ,is not how God intended for us to live.

Still, quote it from your bible please.

'Who healeth the broken of heart, and bindeth up their bruises.'

This is not Psalms 146:3, it is 147:3. Please quote 146:3?

Whatever they do, whatever small things they achieve, they will never bring peace to the earth, get rid of sickness and death or make the earth beautiful.

No matter what I do, no matter whatever small things I achieve, I'll never fix absolutely everything. So I might as well just lump around, since I can't make everything perfect.

No. We sit back and wait for God to act in bringing about His purpose. However, we have ajob to do now,warn people about the coming 'Day of Jehovah.' Also, we need to seek first His kingdom. MAtthew 6:33. This requires action. This is why Jehovah's Witnesses are not just 'lumping' around, but instead are very, very busy, in 236 lands preaching about this Kingdom (Dan 2:44) that will sort out all the earth, translating bibles and bible literature into over 600 languages. WE spent, last year, 1.5 billion hours doing this work. All this is run on voluntary contributions/donations. An amazing feat really.

David
question4u
Posts: 492
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/19/2012 10:57:37 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/15/2012 6:56:47 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
God"s law versus secular law. Which is moral?

Our literature is rife with criticisms of God"s laws denouncing them as immoral.
This is mostly done by non-believers and secular law makers and even many believers. The whole world has rejected the morality of God"s law.

Satan shall deceive the whole world. That is scripture.

Believers say that God"s laws are moral; yet very few believers are trying to push for adoption of God"s laws by secular governments.

If believers believed that God"s laws are moral, it follows that they would be trying to have them implemented by governments. Strangely, they do not.

Can a believer believe in God yet not believe in his laws?

No believer is living by God"s law.

If believers believe in God"s laws, should believers be living by them?

Law without punishment is impotent law.

Should believers demand that secular law use God"s punishments where those few laws are basically identical?

Regards
DL

That depends on what we conisder as the creators law? What do you think the creators laws are?
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Posts: 2,900
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/19/2012 11:25:09 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/16/2012 6:06:26 PM, DavidJames1 wrote:
What part of 'not of the world' or as it says in other translations 'no part of the world' suggests to you that we can get involved in the political part of it? This is a pretty big 'part' of the world.

Depends on what you mean by 'of this world'. The way I read it is; don't fixate yourself on material things, don't strive for worldly success alone, etc. etc.

If you think it literally means 'have no part in the world', you should probably go into space, or at the very least become a hermit. That would take you out of the world, no doubt about that.

Exactly, and he knew that his dying was part of God's purpose for the earth. Jesus referred to it in MAtthew 6:9-11. Jesus dying was part of that purpose and also a part fulfilment of that first prophecy recorded in the bible, Genesis 3:15. Jesus was 'bruised in the heel.' So God has a plan to sort the earth out, it would be wise for us to wait for Him to sort it out in His own due time and way. Jesus expressed the fact that God already had a day and hour planned when He (God) would accomplish His purpose. Matthew 24:36.

Okay, I guess. That's why he didn't want to be King.

By getting involved in earthly politics we are showing God that we are trying to take things into our own hands.

Take what into our own hands? Obviously, we can't make everything perfect, but in the interim what are we supposed to do?

Just lump around?

Why not?

I just explained why not.

This is why we have nothing to do with the 'world.'

You're on the world, aren't you? Thus, you have something to do with the world, and you must be under the power of Satan.

Except that we tell the 'world' about God's purpose for the earth. A topic most Christians are silent about, more the main reason that there is no consistency among them as to waht they believe God's Kingdom is!

If you're telling the 'world', then you must be a friend of it, musn't you be?

But it refers to the one ruling the world. HAving nothing to do with Christ. This refers to the same person as in 2 Cor 4:4, 1 John 5:19, Revelation 12:9.

The one ruling the world, by your own interpretation, is Satan, who obviously has nothing to do with Christ.

The world is in the power of this 'wicked one', Satan the Devil. He is referred to as the 'god of this system of things.' By getting involved in worldly politics, we are getting involved in what is controlled by the Devil.

So Satan literally manipulates the people of earth?

Daniel 10:12-14 shows that wicked spirit forces are very involved in the politics of the world.

No it doesn't.

Why the question marks?

Because I don't see how that follows.

Yes. We are to expect this! Matthew 24:9

If Christians never ever involved themselves in politics at all from the time of Christ to now, you probably wouldn't even exist at this point.

We are not designed to govern each other. This is not how God meant for us to live.

That's how we're living.

We have to sit tight and wait for Him to act. God will hold all those responsible for what they have done! Romans 12:19. However, we endure these things with God's spirit and thus benefit, we are joyful! (Jehovah's Witnesses were tortured and executed in those concentration camps too). James 1:2-4 shows that we can see it as joy when we meet with various trials. Also, we make God happy. Proverbs 27:11.

If there's another holocaust, are we to avoid doing anything in order that we may not be part of the world?

Man trying to govern man, no matter how good his intentions are ,is not how God intended for us to live.

Man is governing man, regardless of whether or not it's good.

This is not Psalms 146:3, it is 147:3. Please quote 146:3?

Like I told you, that's Psalms 146:3 in the Douay-Rheims Bible.

No. We sit back and wait for God to act in bringing about His purpose. However, we have ajob to do now,warn people about the coming 'Day of Jehovah.' Also, we need to seek first His kingdom. MAtthew 6:33. This requires action. This is why Jehovah's Witnesses are not just 'lumping' around, but instead are very, very busy, in 236 lands preaching about this Kingdom (Dan 2:44) that will sort out all the earth, translating bibles and bible literature into over 600 languages. WE spent, last year, 1.5 billion hours doing this work. All this is run on voluntary contributions/donations. An amazing feat really.

That's nothing, lol.

In summary, I think you have a bizarre view of what 'being part of the world' means.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/19/2012 8:10:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/15/2012 6:56:47 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
God"s law versus secular law. Which is moral?

If there is a moral law it is God's. Secular law cannot be claimed to be anything other than subjective opinion about what is moral.

Our literature is rife with criticisms of God"s laws denouncing them as immoral.
This is mostly done by non-believers and secular law makers and even many believers. The whole world has rejected the morality of God"s law.

Satan shall deceive the whole world. That is scripture.

Believers say that God"s laws are moral; yet very few believers are trying to push for adoption of God"s laws by secular governments.

If believers believed that God"s laws are moral, it follows that they would be trying to have them implemented by governments. Strangely, they do not.

Man is not in any position to give divine judgements or divine justice. God tells us what laws He wants us to follow, and the rest is left up to Him.

Can a believer believe in God yet not believe in his laws?

No. We acknowledge a higher authority than ourselves and believe in His laws.

No believer is living by God"s law.

Right, no man is perfect, thus the need for Jesus.

If believers believe in God"s laws, should believers be living by them?

Yes we should be doing our best to follow those laws that God has set for us.

Law without punishment is impotent law.

Agreed, and we must all face judgement.

Should believers demand that secular law use God"s punishments where those few laws are basically identical?

No, that implies that we think we are God's equals.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
Posts: 1,723
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/27/2012 6:59:39 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/15/2012 4:46:46 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Neither. The law is irrelevant to morality.

If not morality, what do you base the laws you follow on?

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
Posts: 1,723
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/27/2012 7:04:31 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/15/2012 5:15:50 PM, DavidJames1 wrote:


God's Kingdom is no part of this world. Therefore, Christians should not get involved in politics of any kind.

So much for your omnipresent God.

I do agree though that his law has no business with humans.

Regards
DL
DanielChristopherBlowes
Posts: 1,066
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/27/2012 7:06:25 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/15/2012 6:56:47 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
God"s law versus secular law. Which is moral?

Our literature is rife with criticisms of God"s laws denouncing them as immoral.
This is mostly done by non-believers and secular law makers and even many believers. The whole world has rejected the morality of God"s law.

Satan shall deceive the whole world. That is scripture.

Believers say that God"s laws are moral; yet very few believers are trying to push for adoption of God"s laws by secular governments.

If believers believed that God"s laws are moral, it follows that they would be trying to have them implemented by governments. Strangely, they do not.

Can a believer believe in God yet not believe in his laws?

No believer is living by God"s law.

If believers believe in God"s laws, should believers be living by them?

Law without punishment is impotent law.

Should believers demand that secular law use God"s punishments where those few laws are basically identical?

Regards
DL

You are beginning with the premise 'there is a God' -hence His laws must have priority.
Everyone on the side of Truth listens to Me. (Jesus Christ)
GreatestIam
Posts: 1,723
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/27/2012 7:22:26 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/16/2012 5:26:56 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 11/15/2012 6:12:03 PM, DavidJames1 wrote:

'Who healeth the broken of heart, and bindeth up their bruises.'

Whatever they do, whatever small things they achieve, they will never bring peace to the earth, get rid of sickness and death or make the earth beautiful.

No matter what I do, no matter whatever small things I achieve, I'll never fix absolutely everything. So I might as well just lump around, since I can't make everything perfect.

Strange that if not of this kingdom, Jesus tried hard to correct political thinking in it and you are to emulate him. Yet you think you should not follow Jesus' example.

He chastised his disciples for telling him he should not be hanging around the publicans and Jesus said that the sick needed a doctor more than the well.

Seems you cannot love the way God says you should.

Proverbs 3:12
For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

Instead of loving your neighbor, you would rather let him make mistakes in his political thinking.

You are going to hell for sure. You are definitely not Jesus like.

Regards
DL
DanielChristopherBlowes
Posts: 1,066
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/27/2012 7:24:31 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/27/2012 7:22:26 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 11/16/2012 5:26:56 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 11/15/2012 6:12:03 PM, DavidJames1 wrote:

'Who healeth the broken of heart, and bindeth up their bruises.'

Whatever they do, whatever small things they achieve, they will never bring peace to the earth, get rid of sickness and death or make the earth beautiful.

No matter what I do, no matter whatever small things I achieve, I'll never fix absolutely everything. So I might as well just lump around, since I can't make everything perfect.

Strange that if not of this kingdom, Jesus tried hard to correct political thinking in it and you are to emulate him. Yet you think you should not follow Jesus' example.

He chastised his disciples for telling him he should not be hanging around the publicans and Jesus said that the sick needed a doctor more than the well.

Seems you cannot love the way God says you should.

Proverbs 3:12
For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

Instead of loving your neighbor, you would rather let him make mistakes in his political thinking.

You are going to hell for sure. You are definitely not Jesus like.

Regards
DL

By condemning you condemn yourself.
Everyone on the side of Truth listens to Me. (Jesus Christ)
TheAntidoter
Posts: 4,323
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/27/2012 7:25:23 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/27/2012 6:59:39 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 11/15/2012 4:46:46 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Neither. The law is irrelevant to morality.

If not morality, what do you base the laws you follow on?

Regards
DL

Perhaps God's nature?
Affinity: Fire
Class: Human
Abilities: ????

Nac.

WOAH, COLORED FONT!
GreatestIam
Posts: 1,723
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/27/2012 7:27:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/19/2012 10:57:37 AM, question4u wrote:
At 11/15/2012 6:56:47 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
God"s law versus secular law. Which is moral?

Our literature is rife with criticisms of God"s laws denouncing them as immoral.
This is mostly done by non-believers and secular law makers and even many believers. The whole world has rejected the morality of God"s law.

Satan shall deceive the whole world. That is scripture.

Believers say that God"s laws are moral; yet very few believers are trying to push for adoption of God"s laws by secular governments.

If believers believed that God"s laws are moral, it follows that they would be trying to have them implemented by governments. Strangely, they do not.

Can a believer believe in God yet not believe in his laws?

No believer is living by God"s law.

If believers believe in God"s laws, should believers be living by them?

Law without punishment is impotent law.

Should believers demand that secular law use God"s punishments where those few laws are basically identical?

Regards
DL

That depends on what we conisder as the creators law? What do you think the creators laws are?

Whatever men have written in holy books and said came from God when in reality the laws came from Rome.

I will add these clips to the mix for your consideration. They show who put what in Jesus' mouth and how Christianity has been manipulated. The first which is part of the second speaks to my Gnostic Christian label and the second shows my view of religions overall and the Noble Lie that I think we and our governments should rescind. The third clip speaks to the reason that religions were invented in the first place as it shows why social control was required for city states that had to deal with the reality of finite resources. I see these city states as led by a timocratic king who through the religion that he would have created, also realized that there had to be a tyrannical part to his benevolent duty and created a religion to be just that.

I see the King/God as having to have the morals shown in the Haigt clip.

http://blog.ted.com...

He would have to create his religion as expressed through his high priest/tyrant who would live by the first commandment of God, place no one above me as the enforcer of his King/God's rules and laws while still obeying his King. The larger Roman system would later assume the same system through the Noble Lie. First through the Flavian and later through Constantine.

http://www.simchajtv.com...

Regards
DL
DanielChristopherBlowes
Posts: 1,066
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/27/2012 7:31:38 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/27/2012 7:27:17 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 11/19/2012 10:57:37 AM, question4u wrote:
At 11/15/2012 6:56:47 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
God"s law versus secular law. Which is moral?

Our literature is rife with criticisms of God"s laws denouncing them as immoral.
This is mostly done by non-believers and secular law makers and even many believers. The whole world has rejected the morality of God"s law.

Satan shall deceive the whole world. That is scripture.

Believers say that God"s laws are moral; yet very few believers are trying to push for adoption of God"s laws by secular governments.

If believers believed that God"s laws are moral, it follows that they would be trying to have them implemented by governments. Strangely, they do not.

Can a believer believe in God yet not believe in his laws?

No believer is living by God"s law.

If believers believe in God"s laws, should believers be living by them?

Law without punishment is impotent law.

Should believers demand that secular law use God"s punishments where those few laws are basically identical?

Regards
DL

That depends on what we conisder as the creators law? What do you think the creators laws are?

Whatever men have written in holy books and said came from God when in reality the laws came from Rome.

I will add these clips to the mix for your consideration. They show who put what in Jesus' mouth and how Christianity has been manipulated. The first which is part of the second speaks to my Gnostic Christian label and the second shows my view of religions overall and the Noble Lie that I think we and our governments should rescind. The third clip speaks to the reason that religions were invented in the first place as it shows why social control was required for city states that had to deal with the reality of finite resources. I see these city states as led by a timocratic king who through the religion that he would have created, also realized that there had to be a tyrannical part to his benevolent duty and created a religion to be just that.







I see the King/God as having to have the morals shown in the Haigt clip.

http://blog.ted.com...

He would have to create his religion as expressed through his high priest/tyrant who would live by the first commandment of God, place no one above me as the enforcer of his King/God's rules and laws while still obeying his King. The larger Roman system would later assume the same system through the Noble Lie. First through the Flavian and later through Constantine.

http://www.simchajtv.com...

Regards
DL

The Bible is the inerrant, infallible Word of the living God..

His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, is the Word made flesh.
Everyone on the side of Truth listens to Me. (Jesus Christ)
GreatestIam
Posts: 1,723
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/27/2012 7:57:59 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/19/2012 8:10:44 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 11/15/2012 6:56:47 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
God"s law versus secular law. Which is moral?

If there is a moral law it is God's. Secular law cannot be claimed to be anything other than subjective opinion about what is moral.


I agree. If so then neither can God's law as his opinion is also subjective.


Our literature is rife with criticisms of God"s laws denouncing them as immoral.
This is mostly done by non-believers and secular law makers and even many believers. The whole world has rejected the morality of God"s law.

Satan shall deceive the whole world. That is scripture.

Believers say that God"s laws are moral; yet very few believers are trying to push for adoption of God"s laws by secular governments.

If believers believed that God"s laws are moral, it follows that they would be trying to have them implemented by governments. Strangely, they do not.

Man is not in any position to give divine judgements or divine justice. God tells us what laws He wants us to follow, and the rest is left up to Him.


All we have is what men have given of God and nothing direct. You are correct in man not being able to give divine justice but neither is God as he would have to be here to punish which is a part of justice.

Which standard do you use for justice from your bible?
There are more than 1.
There is an eye for an eye and there are those when the sinner is to be killed when he has done less than kill.


Can a believer believe in God yet not believe in his laws?

No. We acknowledge a higher authority than ourselves and believe in His laws.


Yet you do not follow them or push to have them be the law of the land.
I don't blame you as they are draconian but fact is, you are not living God's law and would not even if you could. You are not that barbaric.


No believer is living by God"s law.

Right, no man is perfect, thus the need for Jesus.


Are you and the rest of us not one of God's works?
Are we not doing exactly what God planned?

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect:

Scriptures say that Jesus was not perfect so how can an imperfect Jesus be useful in making us perfect?


If believers believe in God"s laws, should believers be living by them?

Yes we should be doing our best to follow those laws that God has set for us.


Yet few if any Christian does. Your 50% divorce rate eliminates half the (we) in your reply so you should not try to lie to me.

Law without punishment is impotent law.

Agreed, and we must all face judgement.


Like Satan has?
He was given full freedom here and dominion as well as the power to deceive us all. Can you explain WTF kind of justice those rewards are when God is supposed to punish him?

Justice delayed is justice denied, right?

Should believers demand that secular law use God"s punishments where those few laws are basically identical?

No, that implies that we think we are God's equals.

Regards
DL

So you believe that following his law is good but that following his punishments is somehow making you his equal.

Explain this nonsense statement please.

Regards
DL
DanielChristopherBlowes
Posts: 1,066
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/27/2012 8:00:06 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/27/2012 7:31:38 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 11/27/2012 7:27:17 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 11/19/2012 10:57:37 AM, question4u wrote:
At 11/15/2012 6:56:47 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
God"s law versus secular law. Which is moral?

Our literature is rife with criticisms of God"s laws denouncing them as immoral.
This is mostly done by non-believers and secular law makers and even many believers. The whole world has rejected the morality of God"s law.

Satan shall deceive the whole world. That is scripture.

Believers say that God"s laws are moral; yet very few believers are trying to push for adoption of God"s laws by secular governments.

If believers believed that God"s laws are moral, it follows that they would be trying to have them implemented by governments. Strangely, they do not.

Can a believer believe in God yet not believe in his laws?

No believer is living by God"s law.

If believers believe in God"s laws, should believers be living by them?

Law without punishment is impotent law.

Should believers demand that secular law use God"s punishments where those few laws are basically identical?

Regards
DL

That depends on what we conisder as the creators law? What do you think the creators laws are?

Whatever men have written in holy books and said came from God when in reality the laws came from Rome.

I will add these clips to the mix for your consideration. They show who put what in Jesus' mouth and how Christianity has been manipulated. The first which is part of the second speaks to my Gnostic Christian label and the second shows my view of religions overall and the Noble Lie that I think we and our governments should rescind. The third clip speaks to the reason that religions were invented in the first place as it shows why social control was required for city states that had to deal with the reality of finite resources. I see these city states as led by a timocratic king who through the religion that he would have created, also realized that there had to be a tyrannical part to his benevolent duty and created a religion to be just that.







I see the King/God as having to have the morals shown in the Haigt clip.

http://blog.ted.com...

He would have to create his religion as expressed through his high priest/tyrant who would live by the first commandment of God, place no one above me as the enforcer of his King/God's rules and laws while still obeying his King. The larger Roman system would later assume the same system through the Noble Lie. First through the Flavian and later through Constantine.

http://www.simchajtv.com...

Regards
DL

The Bible is the inerrant, infallible Word of the living God..

His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, is the Word made flesh.
Everyone on the side of Truth listens to Me. (Jesus Christ)
GreatestIam
Posts: 1,723
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/27/2012 8:05:04 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/27/2012 7:06:25 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:


You are beginning with the premise 'there is a God' -hence His laws must have priority.

I did not state that there is a God but do acknowledge that many think his law is in the bible and that is the only belief I hold for the genocidal son murderer.

The issue is morality more than priority.
As the O P states, even Christians do not give God's laws priority as they do not follow it.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
Posts: 1,723
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/27/2012 8:09:03 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/27/2012 7:24:31 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 11/27/2012 7:22:26 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 11/16/2012 5:26:56 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:


You are going to hell for sure. You are definitely not Jesus like.

Regards
DL

By condemning you condemn yourself.

No problem.
If I have that power then I also have the power to forgive.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam
Posts: 1,723
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/27/2012 8:11:24 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/27/2012 7:25:23 AM, TheAntidoter wrote:
At 11/27/2012 6:59:39 AM, GreatestIam wrote:
At 11/15/2012 4:46:46 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
Neither. The law is irrelevant to morality.

If not morality, what do you base the laws you follow on?

Regards
DL

Perhaps God's nature?

Part of God's nature is to be absent.

Law based on absence. Ok.
How exactly does that work?

Regards
DL