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Jesus Christ Existed Even Before Abraham (1)

elisur
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11/21/2012 1:40:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
"Now to Abraham and his Seeds were the promises made. He does not say, "And no seeds", as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed", who is Christ." (Gal.3:16, Ibid.)

Christ is the seed of Abraham, which is why it is wrong to assert that He existed before Abraham did. It is also worthy to note that nowhere in the aforecited pronouncement of Christ, which they use as proof of His alleged pre-existence and deity, did He say, "before Abraham was, I am God." Why then did our Lord Jesus Christ say, "Before Abraham was, I AM"? Does this mean that He had pre-existence or that He had already existed even before Abraham was born? Apostle Peter enlightens us on this regard, thus:

"Foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, He has been manifested in the last times for your sakes" (I Peter 1:20, Douay- Rheims Version)

Even before the creation of the world, our Lord Jesus Christ was already foreknown by God. Hence, what was in the beginning with God was not Christ but God"s foreknowledge of Him. Apostle Peter proves this further through His testimony:

"Him [Christ], being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God"" (Acts 2:23, NKJV)

In other words, even before God created the world, He had already planned that there would be a Messiah or Christ. But there was no Christ yet in existence in the beginning, contrary to what the proponents of the Christ-is-God doctrine would like us to believe, for He came to exist only when He was born of His mother, Apostle Paul testified:

"But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law." (Gal. 4:4, Ibid.)

I have highlighted the allegations of Mr. Tumbok to make them easily noticeable because they are the points that we are going to clarify from the Bible.The first allegation is:

"Christ is the seed of Abraham, which is why it is wrong to assert that He existed before Abraham did."

According to Mr. Tumbok, it is wrong to assert that Christ existed before Abraham because He is a seed of the latter.Let us clarify this.

In what aspect does the Bible consider the Lord Jesus Christ as the seed of Abraham?

(Romans 1:3)"Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh""

Note the descriptive term being used by the apostle Paul, "seed according to the flesh".Such term is used in the Bible to describe the birth of the Lord Jesus Christ, implying that before He was born in the flesh, He already existed in the spirit world.Remember, He was the One teaching the prophets of old by His spirit, which was in them.

(1 Peter 1:10-11)"Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."

"Which was in them" denotes His preexistence.

Notice the following verses:

(Acts 2:30)"Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne""

(Romans 9:4-5)"Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen."

It is easily noticeable that concerning the flesh, and according to the flesh, Christ came from the Israelites in the lineage of David, who are descendants of Abraham.So, He is the seed of Abraham, according to the flesh; and concerning the flesh, but He was before Abraham, concerning the spirit.Thus, His quotation, "Before Abraham was, I am".

Mr. Tumbok alleges that:

"Hence, what was in the beginning with God was not Christ but God"s foreknowledge of Him."

This is the thinking of all people mislead by Manalo, and the proponents of Christ is man- belief.Let us examine this in the light of what is really written in the scriptures.

Consistency in thought and senses is very much needed in understanding the "whole truth" in the Bible.Anybody who will extract a verse out of the consistent thought of any given topic, is taking it out of context, and therefore, misleading.

From what topic of discussion the pronouncement of the Lord Jesus, "Before Abraham was, I am" was taken? Let us examine the topic.

(John 8:38-43)"I speak that which I have seen with my Father:and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them,If ye were Abraham"s children,ye would do the works of Abraham.But now ye seek to kill me,a man that hath told you the truth,which I have heard of God:this did not Abraham.Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father,even God.Jesus said unto them,If God were your Father,ye would love me:for I proceeded forth and came from God;neither came I of myself,but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech?even because ye cannot hear my word."

(John 8:53-58)"Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?Jesus answered,If I honor myself,my honor is nothing:it is my Father that honoreth me;of whom ye say,that he is your God:Yet ye have not known him;but I know him:and if I should say,I know him not,I shall be a liar like unto you:but I know him,and keep his saying.Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day:and he sawit,and was glad.Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?Jesus said unto them,Verily,verily,I say unto you,Before Abraham was,I am."

These discussions between the Lord Jesus Christ and the Jews are about the roots of the Jews and that of Christ.The Jews are claiming that they are children of Abraham; the Lord Jesus Christ telling them that He came from God the Father.If we are going to look closely on the aforementioned verses, Christ is disproving the allegation of these Jews that they are descendants of Abraham, and children of God.If they were of God, they should love Jesus because He came from God; if they are descendants of Abraham, then, they would do the works of Abraham. "Abraham rejoiced to see my day", but the Jews sought to kill Him because they were not children of Abraham but, of their father " the devil.

(John 8:44)"Ye are ofyour father the devil,and the lusts of your father ye will do.He was a murderer from the beginning,and abode not in the truth,because there is no truth in him.When he speaketh a lie,he speaketh of his own:for he is a liar,and the father of it."

What the Jews wanted to do to the Lord Jesus was not what Abraham felt when he saw His day.

(John 8:40) "But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham."

Abraham rejoiced upon seeing the day of the Lord Jesus, unlike the Jews trying to kill Him.

When Jesus said that, "Abraham rejoiced to see my day", the Jews said, "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?", the Lord Jesus Christ exclaimed, Verily,verily,I say unto you,Before Abraham was,I am." The rule of logic and consistency of thought dictates that what our Lord Jesus Christ meant is that He existed before Abraham was " note the verb "was".

In fact, in the New Living Translation (NLT), it says:

(John 8:58)"Jesus answered, "The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!"NLT

And again in the Living New Testamen (LNT), it states:

(John 8:56-58)"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day. He knew I was coming and was glad.The Jewish leaders: You aren"t even 50 years old-sure, you"ve seen Abraham!The absolute truth is that I was in exis
Composer
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11/21/2012 4:23:18 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/21/2012 1:40:15 AM, elisur wrote:
Abraham rejoiced upon seeing the day of the Lord Jesus, unlike the Jews trying to kill Him.

When Jesus said that, "Abraham rejoiced to see my day", the Jews said, "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?", the Lord Jesus Christ exclaimed, Verily,verily,I say unto you,Before Abraham was,I am." The rule of logic and consistency of thought dictates that what our Lord Jesus Christ meant is that He existed before Abraham was " note the verb "was".

In fact, in the New Living Translation (NLT), it says:

(John 8:58)"Jesus answered, "The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!"NLT

Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster:

Solution (1):

Christ's reference to Abraham is to affirm his (Christ's) pre-eminence, not pre-existence. The Jews had claimed that Abraham was their father (vs. 39) and so Christ establishes his pre-eminence in the divine purpose by stating that before Abraham was, "I am". He did not say "before Abraham was, I was" as it is frequently misread. But the Jews, like modern-day trinitarians, misunderstood Jesus. He was not claiming to be literally older in years than Abraham. This is indicated by his prior remark: "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad." (vs. 56). Abraham, to whom the gospel was preached (Gal. 3:8), "saw" the day of Christ through the eye of faith. Christ was "foreordained before the foundation of the world, but manifest in these last times". (1 Peter 1:20). He was foreordained in the divine purpose, but not formed. Similarly in the divine purpose he was the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13:8) but literally he was not slain until his crucifixion in the time of Pilate.
There is no proof that Christ alludes to the divine name (imperfectly rendered by the A.V., "I am that I am"). Jesus simply uses the present tense of the verb "to be". Even if this verse were intended to be read as an allusion to the divine name, this is not proof that Christ was claiming to be "Very God". The divine name declared, "I will be what I will be". (Exod. 3:14 R.S.V. mg.). The name was a prophetic declaration of the divine purpose. Jesus Christ was "God manifest in the flesh" (1 Tim. 3:16), "the word" (Greek: logos) "made flesh." (John 1:14). As such, he was the expression of the divine character, "full of grace and truth" (John 1:14 cf. Exod. 33:19), and became the "firstborn among many brethren". (Rom. 8:29). Christ was the result of the word made flesh, not the originator of the divine plan. As he himself said, "I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42). (Source: wrestedscriptures.com, My Bold)

Your mentor & literal Saviour moi!
annanicole
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11/21/2012 8:32:01 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Solution #2

"Who (God the Father) hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son (Jesus Christ): in whom we have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins: who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: for by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him: and he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."

Solution #3

Pre-eminence, indeed. John 8: 58:

NIV: "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
NLT: "Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!"
NASB: "Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
ASV: "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was born, I am."
YLT: "Jesus said to them, 'Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham's coming -- I am."

God - deity - is past, present, and future. Now, I wouldn't endorse all of the above translations. In fact, the only one I'd pay any attention to is the ASV. Some of them, I haven't studied as far as accuracy. But I've never read a single commentator, from Barnes to McGarvey to Clarke to Robertson to Campbell, who ever stated the passage in John referenced anything other than the pre-existence of Jesus Christ.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
question4u
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11/21/2012 9:06:52 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/21/2012 1:40:15 AM, elisur wrote:
I see we really believe anything we read, long as the majority agrees with it. Jesus was created along time after abraham, yes he was created when the first greek manuscript of the new testament was found, yes Iesous was created along time after, so he did not exist until after abraham.. sorry
annanicole
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11/21/2012 10:27:04 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/21/2012 9:06:52 AM, question4u wrote:
At 11/21/2012 1:40:15 AM, elisur wrote:
I see we really believe anything we read, long as the majority agrees with it. Jesus was created along time after abraham, yes he was created when the first greek manuscript of the new testament was found, yes Iesous was created along time after, so he did not exist until after abraham.. sorry

He did not exist in the flesh - in the form of a human - until after Abraham. And the "majority rule" theory won't work: the majority is and has been frequently wrong.

"yes he was created when the first greek manuscript of the new testament was found"

What does a Greek manuscript have to do with "creation" of Jesus?

"so he did not exist until after abraham"

Paul says differently: "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:in whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: for by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him: and He is before all things, and by Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church." (Col 1: 13-18)

So does John: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ... and the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth." (Jn 1: 1, 14)

That's why you can't go 26 verses into the Bible before you get a good glimpse of the nature of diety: "And God said, 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth'."

Who is the "us" and "our" up there in Gen 1: 26? It seems to me that "us" and "our" refer to more than one. It might be two - or twenty. But "us" isn't "one." Even the worst translations (or perversions) say, "And God went on to say: "Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness ..." (New World Translation)
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
question4u
Posts: 492
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11/21/2012 11:59:28 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/21/2012 10:27:04 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/21/2012 9:06:52 AM, question4u wrote:
At 11/21/2012 1:40:15 AM, elisur wrote:
I see we really believe anything we read, long as the majority agrees with it. Jesus was created along time after abraham, yes he was created when the first greek manuscript of the new testament was found, yes Iesous was created along time after, so he did not exist until after abraham.. sorry

He did not exist in the flesh - in the form of a human - until after Abraham. And the "majority rule" theory won't work: the majority is and has been frequently wrong.

"yes he was created when the first greek manuscript of the new testament was found"

What does a Greek manuscript have to do with "creation" of Jesus?

"so he did not exist until after abraham"

Paul says differently: "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:in whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: for by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him: and He is before all things, and by Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church." (Col 1: 13-18)


So does John: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ... and the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth." (Jn 1: 1, 14)

That's why you can't go 26 verses into the Bible before you get a good glimpse of the nature of diety: "And God said, 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth'."

Who is the "us" and "our" up there in Gen 1: 26? It seems to me that "us" and "our" refer to more than one. It might be two - or twenty. But "us" isn't "one." Even the worst translations (or perversions) say, "And God went on to say: "Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness ..." (New World Translation)

Sound just like a christian trying to make others believe in their LORD JESUS. During the time of Gen 1:26 was the angels living during this time?

Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

And Yahweh said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

So this must have been Jesus in the US that went down right?
Paradox_7
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11/21/2012 12:14:36 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
John 1 -

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God" 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband"s will, but born of God.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Logos (the word), is Christ.

http://biblesuite.com...

Christ existed with the Father, and holy spirit, as God-- before time. The world was created through Christ.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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11/21/2012 1:03:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/21/2012 1:40:15 AM, elisur wrote:
"Now to Abraham and his Seeds were the promises made. He does not say, "And no seeds", as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed", who is Christ." (Gal.3:16, Ibid.)

Galatians is new testament

"Him [Christ], being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God"" (Acts 2:23, NKJV)

Acts is new testament
"But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law." (Gal. 4:4, Ibid.)

see above

(Romans 1:3)"Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh""

Romans is obviously new testament

(1 Peter 1:10-11)"Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."

Peter is new testament


(Acts 2:30)"Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne""

see above
(Romans 9:4-5)"Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen."

see above

(John 8:38-43)"I speak that which I have seen with my Father:and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them,If ye were Abraham"s children,ye would do the works of Abraham.But now ye seek to kill me,a man that hath told you the truth,which I have heard of God:this did not Abraham.Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father,even God.Jesus said unto them,If God were your Father,ye would love me:for I proceeded forth and came from God;neither came I of myself,but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech?even because ye cannot hear my word."

John is new testament
(John 8:53-58)"Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?Jesus answered,If I honor myself,my honor is nothing:it is my Father that honoreth me;of whom ye say,that he is your God:Yet ye have not known him;but I know him:and if I should say,I know him not,I shall be a liar like unto you:but I know him,and keep his saying.Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day:and he sawit,and was glad.Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?Jesus said unto them,Verily,verily,I say unto you,Before Abraham was,I am."

see above

(John 8:44)"Ye are ofyour father the devil,and the lusts of your father ye will do.He was a murderer from the beginning,and abode not in the truth,because there is no truth in him.When he speaketh a lie,he speaketh of his own:for he is a liar,and the father of it."

see above

(John 8:40) "But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham."

see above


(John 8:58)"Jesus answered, "The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!"NLT

see above

(John 8:56-58)"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day. He knew I was coming and was glad.T
see above
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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11/21/2012 1:04:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/21/2012 1:03:45 PM, DanT wrote:
At 11/21/2012 1:40:15 AM, elisur wrote:
"Now to Abraham and his Seeds were the promises made. He does not say, "And no seeds", as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed", who is Christ." (Gal.3:16, Ibid.)

Galatians is new testament

"Him [Christ], being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God"" (Acts 2:23, NKJV)

Acts is new testament
"But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law." (Gal. 4:4, Ibid.)

see above

(Romans 1:3)"Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh""

Romans is obviously new testament

(1 Peter 1:10-11)"Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."

Peter is new testament


(Acts 2:30)"Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne""

see above
(Romans 9:4-5)"Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen."

see above

(John 8:38-43)"I speak that which I have seen with my Father:and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them,If ye were Abraham"s children,ye would do the works of Abraham.But now ye seek to kill me,a man that hath told you the truth,which I have heard of God:this did not Abraham.Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father,even God.Jesus said unto them,If God were your Father,ye would love me:for I proceeded forth and came from God;neither came I of myself,but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech?even because ye cannot hear my word."

John is new testament
(John 8:53-58)"Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?Jesus answered,If I honor myself,my honor is nothing:it is my Father that honoreth me;of whom ye say,that he is your God:Yet ye have not known him;but I know him:and if I should say,I know him not,I shall be a liar like unto you:but I know him,and keep his saying.Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day:and he sawit,and was glad.Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?Jesus said unto them,Verily,verily,I say unto you,Before Abraham was,I am."

see above

(John 8:44)"Ye are ofyour father the devil,and the lusts of your father ye will do.He was a murderer from the beginning,and abode not in the truth,because there is no truth in him.When he speaketh a lie,he speaketh of his own:for he is a liar,and the father of it."

see above

(John 8:40) "But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham."

see above


(John 8:58)"Jesus answered, "The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!"NLT

see above

(John 8:56-58)"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day. He knew I was coming and was glad.T
see above

Anything new testament was written after Christ
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
annanicole
Posts: 19,782
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11/21/2012 1:32:23 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/21/2012 11:59:28 AM, question4u wrote:
At 11/21/2012 10:27:04 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/21/2012 9:06:52 AM, question4u wrote:
At 11/21/2012 1:40:15 AM, elisur wrote:
I see we really believe anything we read, long as the majority agrees with it. Jesus was created along time after abraham, yes he was created when the first greek manuscript of the new testament was found, yes Iesous was created along time after, so he did not exist until after abraham.. sorry

He did not exist in the flesh - in the form of a human - until after Abraham. And the "majority rule" theory won't work: the majority is and has been frequently wrong.

"yes he was created when the first greek manuscript of the new testament was found"

What does a Greek manuscript have to do with "creation" of Jesus?

"so he did not exist until after abraham"

Paul says differently: "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:in whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: for by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him: and He is before all things, and by Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church." (Col 1: 13-18)


So does John: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ... and the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth." (Jn 1: 1, 14)

That's why you can't go 26 verses into the Bible before you get a good glimpse of the nature of diety: "And God said, 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth'."

Who is the "us" and "our" up there in Gen 1: 26? It seems to me that "us" and "our" refer to more than one. It might be two - or twenty. But "us" isn't "one." Even the worst translations (or perversions) say, "And God went on to say: "Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness ..." (New World Translation)

Sound just like a christian trying to make others believe in their LORD JESUS. During the time of Gen 1:26 was the angels living during this time?

I have no idea, but see no evidence anywhere that angels were involved in creation or the angels are in the image of God. Do you have any such evidence to offer?

Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

And Yahweh said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

So this must have been Jesus in the US that went down right?

I do not know that I've ever commented on that passage. Maybe I have. However, I'm quite sure that I did comment on Colossians 1:

"Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:in whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: for by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him: and He is before all things, and by Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church."

So this must have been Jesus in the US that went down right?

"Us" is usually plural.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
question4u
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11/21/2012 3:21:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/21/2012 1:32:23 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/21/2012 11:59:28 AM, question4u wrote:
At 11/21/2012 10:27:04 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/21/2012 9:06:52 AM, question4u wrote:
At 11/21/2012 1:40:15 AM, elisur wrote:
I see we really believe anything we read, long as the majority agrees with it. Jesus was created along time after abraham, yes he was created when the first greek manuscript of the new testament was found, yes Iesous was created along time after, so he did not exist until after abraham.. sorry

He did not exist in the flesh - in the form of a human - until after Abraham. And the "majority rule" theory won't work: the majority is and has been frequently wrong.

"yes he was created when the first greek manuscript of the new testament was found"

What does a Greek manuscript have to do with "creation" of Jesus?

"so he did not exist until after abraham"

Paul says differently: "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:in whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: for by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him: and He is before all things, and by Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church." (Col 1: 13-18)


So does John: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ... and the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth." (Jn 1: 1, 14)

That's why you can't go 26 verses into the Bible before you get a good glimpse of the nature of diety: "And God said, 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth'."

Who is the "us" and "our" up there in Gen 1: 26? It seems to me that "us" and "our" refer to more than one. It might be two - or twenty. But "us" isn't "one." Even the worst translations (or perversions) say, "And God went on to say: "Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness ..." (New World Translation)

Sound just like a christian trying to make others believe in their LORD JESUS. During the time of Gen 1:26 was the angels living during this time?

I have no idea, but see no evidence anywhere that angels were involved in creation or the angels are in the image of God. Do you have any such evidence to offer?

Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

And Yahweh said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

So this must have been Jesus in the US that went down right?

I do not know that I've ever commented on that passage. Maybe I have. However, I'm quite sure that I did comment on Colossians 1:

"Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:in whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: for by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him: and He is before all things, and by Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church."

So this must have been Jesus in the US that went down right?

"Us" is usually plural.

That is all I get is usually US is plural, there is no evidence or proof that US had to do with jesus, but I did prove to you that Us have been related to the creators angels to do his work. If the angels do what ever Yahweh commands who are you to say they had nothing to do with creation. They have a lot to do with destoying the earth why they could not assist (to the glory of Yahweh ) with creation?

http://en.allexperts.com...

There I go again acting like a child? I guess I ask the questions you did not when you where a child.
annanicole
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11/21/2012 3:44:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/21/2012 3:21:18 PM, question4u wrote:
At 11/21/2012 1:32:23 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/21/2012 11:59:28 AM, question4u wrote:
At 11/21/2012 10:27:04 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 11/21/2012 9:06:52 AM, question4u wrote:
At 11/21/2012 1:40:15 AM, elisur wrote:
I see we really believe anything we read, long as the majority agrees with it. Jesus was created along time after abraham, yes he was created when the first greek manuscript of the new testament was found, yes Iesous was created along time after, so he did not exist until after abraham.. sorry

He did not exist in the flesh - in the form of a human - until after Abraham. And the "majority rule" theory won't work: the majority is and has been frequently wrong.

"yes he was created when the first greek manuscript of the new testament was found"

What does a Greek manuscript have to do with "creation" of Jesus?

"so he did not exist until after abraham"

Paul says differently: "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:in whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: for by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him: and He is before all things, and by Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church." (Col 1: 13-18)


So does John: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ... and the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth." (Jn 1: 1, 14)

That's why you can't go 26 verses into the Bible before you get a good glimpse of the nature of diety: "And God said, 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth'."

Who is the "us" and "our" up there in Gen 1: 26? It seems to me that "us" and "our" refer to more than one. It might be two - or twenty. But "us" isn't "one." Even the worst translations (or perversions) say, "And God went on to say: "Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness ..." (New World Translation)

Sound just like a christian trying to make others believe in their LORD JESUS. During the time of Gen 1:26 was the angels living during this time?

I have no idea, but see no evidence anywhere that angels were involved in creation or the angels are in the image of God. Do you have any such evidence to offer?

Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

And Yahweh said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

So this must have been Jesus in the US that went down right?

I do not know that I've ever commented on that passage. Maybe I have. However, I'm quite sure that I did comment on Colossians 1:

"Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:in whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: for by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him: and He is before all things, and by Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church."

So this must have been Jesus in the US that went down right?

"Us" is usually plural.

That is all I get is usually US is plural,

You actually never got even that. I never cited the passage as evidence of anything.

there is no evidence or proof that US had to do with jesus,

And again I never cited the passage as having "to do with Jesus." I never mentioned it, and had no reason to bring it up.

but I did prove to you that Us have been related to the creators angels to do his work.

No, you are confusing the fact that I asked for proof that the angels had anything at all to do with creation with the fact that you proved something.

If the angels do what ever Yahweh commands who are you to say they had nothing to do with creation.

I didn't. I made no assertion either way. I believe I cited Colossians maybe three times:

"Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: in whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: and he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church."

That should give you some insight as to who was involved in creation. Whoever the "He" is that is the head of the church is the "him" by which "were all things created."

I never said a word about any angels creating things nor speculated around by implying that they did. Nor did I bring up a passage in Genesis that has nothing to do with creation: I cite one which does - and Gen 1: 26 links to Colossians 1.

They have a lot to do with destoying the earth why they could not assist (to the glory of Yahweh ) with creation?

I never said they did or didn't, remember? I said that Colossians 1 explains any confusion that you may have concerning who the "us" is in Gen 1: 26. If you have any concrete evidence that any angels participated in the creation, then let's have it. Colossians 1 certainly points towards Jesus Christ as being involved in it.


There I go again acting like a child? I guess I ask the questions you did not when you where a child.

Haha. No, I probably asked some of the same ones back twenty-five or thirty years ago. No problem.
Madcornishbiker: "No, I don't need a dictionary, I know how scripture uses words and that is all I need to now."
DanielChristopherBlowes
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11/22/2012 5:00:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/21/2012 1:40:15 AM, elisur wrote:
"Now to Abraham and his Seeds were the promises made. He does not say, "And no seeds", as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed", who is Christ." (Gal.3:16, Ibid.)

Christ is the seed of Abraham, which is why it is wrong to assert that He existed before Abraham did. It is also worthy to note that nowhere in the aforecited pronouncement of Christ, which they use as proof of His alleged pre-existence and deity, did He say, "before Abraham was, I am God." Why then did our Lord Jesus Christ say, "Before Abraham was, I AM"? Does this mean that He had pre-existence or that He had already existed even before Abraham was born? Apostle Peter enlightens us on this regard, thus:

"Foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, He has been manifested in the last times for your sakes" (I Peter 1:20, Douay- Rheims Version)

Even before the creation of the world, our Lord Jesus Christ was already foreknown by God. Hence, what was in the beginning with God was not Christ but God"s foreknowledge of Him. Apostle Peter proves this further through His testimony:

"Him [Christ], being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God"" (Acts 2:23, NKJV)

In other words, even before God created the world, He had already planned that there would be a Messiah or Christ. But there was no Christ yet in existence in the beginning, contrary to what the proponents of the Christ-is-God doctrine would like us to believe, for He came to exist only when He was born of His mother, Apostle Paul testified:

"But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law." (Gal. 4:4, Ibid.)

I have highlighted the allegations of Mr. Tumbok to make them easily noticeable because they are the points that we are going to clarify from the Bible.The first allegation is:

"Christ is the seed of Abraham, which is why it is wrong to assert that He existed before Abraham did."

According to Mr. Tumbok, it is wrong to assert that Christ existed before Abraham because He is a seed of the latter.Let us clarify this.

In what aspect does the Bible consider the Lord Jesus Christ as the seed of Abraham?

(Romans 1:3)"Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh""

Note the descriptive term being used by the apostle Paul, "seed according to the flesh".Such term is used in the Bible to describe the birth of the Lord Jesus Christ, implying that before He was born in the flesh, He already existed in the spirit world.Remember, He was the One teaching the prophets of old by His spirit, which was in them.

(1 Peter 1:10-11)"Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."

"Which was in them" denotes His preexistence.

Notice the following verses:

(Acts 2:30)"Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne""

(Romans 9:4-5)"Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen."

It is easily noticeable that concerning the flesh, and according to the flesh, Christ came from the Israelites in the lineage of David, who are descendants of Abraham.So, He is the seed of Abraham, according to the flesh; and concerning the flesh, but He was before Abraham, concerning the spirit.Thus, His quotation, "Before Abraham was, I am".

Mr. Tumbok alleges that:

"Hence, what was in the beginning with God was not Christ but God"s foreknowledge of Him."

This is the thinking of all people mislead by Manalo, and the proponents of Christ is man- belief.Let us examine this in the light of what is really written in the scriptures.

Consistency in thought and senses is very much needed in understanding the "whole truth" in the Bible.Anybody who will extract a verse out of the consistent thought of any given topic, is taking it out of context, and therefore, misleading.

From what topic of discussion the pronouncement of the Lord Jesus, "Before Abraham was, I am" was taken? Let us examine the topic.

(John 8:38-43)"I speak that which I have seen with my Father:and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them,If ye were Abraham"s children,ye would do the works of Abraham.But now ye seek to kill me,a man that hath told you the truth,which I have heard of God:this did not Abraham.Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father,even God.Jesus said unto them,If God were your Father,ye would love me:for I proceeded forth and came from God;neither came I of myself,but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech?even because ye cannot hear my word."

(John 8:53-58)"Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?Jesus answered,If I honor myself,my honor is nothing:it is my Father that honoreth me;of whom ye say,that he is your God:Yet ye have not known him;but I know him:and if I should say,I know him not,I shall be a liar like unto you:but I know him,and keep his saying.Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day:and he sawit,and was glad.Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?Jesus said unto them,Verily,verily,I say unto you,Before Abraham was,I am."

These discussions between the Lord Jesus Christ and the Jews are about the roots of the Jews and that of Christ.The Jews are claiming that they are children of Abraham; the Lord Jesus Christ telling them that He came from God the Father.If we are going to look closely on the aforementioned verses, Christ is disproving the allegation of these Jews that they are descendants of Abraham, and children of God.If they were of God, they should love Jesus because He came from God; if they are descendants of Abraham, then, they would do the works of Abraham. "Abraham rejoiced to see my day", but the Jews sought to kill Him because they were not children of Abraham but, of their father " the

Jesus is God; hence He existed before Abraham..
Everyone on the side of Truth listens to Me. (Jesus Christ)
Composer
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11/22/2012 8:22:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/22/2012 5:00:43 PM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
Jesus is God; hence He existed before Abraham..

Your legitimately unsupported comment reflects what most calling themselves xtians actually believe -

Now compare your typical foolish comment with these words by the former Bishop of Woolwich, Dr. Robinson, in his book, "Honest to God," in a passage where he was explaining how most calling themselves xtians view jebus:

"Jesus was not a man born and bred, he was God for a limited period taking part in a charade. He looked like a man, but underneath he was God dressed up - like Father Christmas." (Extract from: a_hayward/come_down/comedownfromheaven.htm#4)

Your mentor & literal Saviour moi!

Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster!
Composer
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11/22/2012 8:26:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/22/2012 5:00:43 PM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
Jesus is God; hence He existed before Abraham..

Even your own Story books refute you, LOL!

Now this is eternal life " that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you sent. (John 17: 3) NET Story book

Your mentor & literal Saviour moi!

Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster!
elisur
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11/22/2012 9:19:32 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
do not believe story book just believe the bible coz bible is complete
(RSV) Isaiah 34:16 Seek and read from the book of the Lord: Not one of these shall be missing; none shall be without her mate. For the mouth of the Lord has commanded, and his Spirit has gathered them.
DanielChristopherBlowes
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11/23/2012 1:28:25 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/22/2012 8:22:46 PM, Composer wrote:
At 11/22/2012 5:00:43 PM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
Jesus is God; hence He existed before Abraham..

Your legitimately unsupported comment reflects what most calling themselves xtians actually believe -

Now compare your typical foolish comment with these words by the former Bishop of Woolwich, Dr. Robinson, in his book, "Honest to God," in a passage where he was explaining how most calling themselves xtians view jebus:

"Jesus was not a man born and bred, he was God for a limited period taking part in a charade. He looked like a man, but underneath he was God dressed up - like Father Christmas." (Extract from: a_hayward/come_down/comedownfromheaven.htm#4)

Your mentor & literal Saviour moi!

Me Composer the ongoing successful Cult buster!

Rebuttal: TROLL.
Everyone on the side of Truth listens to Me. (Jesus Christ)