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Doesn't Look Good For William Lane Craig

Microsuck
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11/28/2012 1:19:13 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Note that this is not my original thread. This thread is from http://www.ex-christian.net... and I thought I'd copy it to get the opinion of DDO members.

I'm ready to go public on this. William Lane Craig is losing. That's the way I read the situation. I think his tightening of direct online input to his message is acknowledgement on his part that he is losing. Gotta control the atheist!

So far, WLC has revealed a three-step campaign:

1. Disable comments on YouTube.
2. Bring mods on-board to ban loud dissenters.
3. Install software to negatively impact the voice of dissenters who cannot be banned for actual offenses.

Back when I joined in July 2008, pretty much anything was allowed on his forums. Stalking, name-calling, mud-slinging. If you were a Christian you could do it. (Anyone who watches WLC on video knows he does it.) "Irenic and substantial discussion" are the rules for the forums but the rules were not enforced with any regularity. No mods were visible. Atheists were tolerated if they could stomach the treatment fired their way. There were only two or three of us so by unspoken agreement we spread ourselves out. We never posted in the same thread and we never disagreed with each other in public.

WLC posts his videos on YouTube but disables comments. People are supposed to come to the forums to discuss things. So we got lots of atheists and skeptics on the forums. Also Christians. Some Christians slap the term "troll" on anyone they disagree with, which is atheists in general. I didn't realize that things were deteriorating. However, about a year ago a mod started posting. Within weeks, a second mod came on-board because there was too much work for the first guy.

People started getting banned. Warnings were posted online. It was a real cops-and-robbers situation.

Now they've installed new software that allows people to rack up reputation points--positive and negative. Some atheists who post regularly soon got into a hole as deep as -30 with one or two positive points, something like this: +2/-30. At the same time, atheists who play really, really nice and bend over backward to cater to the Christian population, can rack up something like this: +12/-3. A popular Christian might look like this: +27/-3. Last time I looked I was sitting at +4/-11. I have not been posting regularly but when I did I made very sure not to sling mud or call names. Nor did I stalk or commit any other internet crimes. I do call a spade a spade and ask difficult (forbidden?) questions. Compare with the one unpopular Christian poster I'm aware of: +6/-8.

With this kind of negatively unbalanced numbers on one's "face" or avatar, newbies will take one look and decide not to take you very seriously despite the actual tone or quality of your post. I think it also impacts old-timers who don't want to be seen associating with "bad guys." There are also those who think one more "smite" on a person who already has a lot of negative points won't make any difference. At the same time, they have the twisted notion that there is room for "redemption" by improving your posts. However, they're kicking you while you're down and they're not telling you what you're doing wrong. (On exC we reward individual posts we consider to be exceptionally good, which lets us know what people like to see, but no one is branded permanently.)

Looks to me like someone's losing and it's not the atheists.

WLC's forums go under the dubious name Reasonable Faith (http://www.reasonablefaith.org... ).


What do you think about this situation? It appears that this is the case in a lot of ultra-Christian websites and YouTube channels - disabling comments, censoring those that he disagrees with - and NephilimFree from YouTube even goes as far as blocking people.

It appears that, wherever you look, religion is loosing the argument.
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phantom
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11/28/2012 1:26:52 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Read the post. Still not sure what he's supposed to be losing on.
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socialpinko
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11/28/2012 1:39:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
All it proves is that WLC is a fvck boy. Doesn't mean Christianity is false or anything.
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: : At 9/29/2014 9:43:46 AM, kbub wrote:
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philochristos
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11/28/2012 3:00:22 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/28/2012 1:19:13 PM, Microsuck wrote:
It appears that, wherever you look, religion is loosing the argument.

I don't think that's the case at all. Craig and other Christians may be losing in their efforts to have civil and robust debates, but they are not losing arguments, and nothing in your post indicates that they are.
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OberHerr
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11/28/2012 4:46:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Seems to me their winning at stopping annoying YouTube trolls from having comment flame wars.
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Nidhogg
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11/28/2012 6:35:41 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/28/2012 4:46:07 PM, OberHerr wrote:
Seems to me their winning at stopping annoying YouTube trolls from having comment flame wars.

Seriously, nothing like DDO out there. Wild West of the internet.
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Wallstreetatheist
Posts: 7,132
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11/28/2012 7:06:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/28/2012 6:35:41 PM, Nidhogg wrote:
At 11/28/2012 4:46:07 PM, OberHerr wrote:
Seems to me their winning at stopping annoying YouTube trolls from having comment flame wars.

Seriously, nothing like DDO out there. Wild West of the internet.

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Wallstreetatheist
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11/28/2012 7:11:14 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I've seen similar censorship and ostracism tactics employed in Christian forums, even Christian and Muslim facebook groups. Religious people don't really have a proud tradition of encouraging free speech; some even go as far to push for worldwide blasphemy laws, which would make it illegal to say anything critical about religion. All of this serves to keep the religious bubble intact. When you have a belief system so fragile in its relationship to reality, measures like those implemented on Craig's website become necessary. http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk...
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OberHerr
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11/28/2012 7:27:16 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/28/2012 7:06:45 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 11/28/2012 6:35:41 PM, Nidhogg wrote:
At 11/28/2012 4:46:07 PM, OberHerr wrote:
Seems to me their winning at stopping annoying YouTube trolls from having comment flame wars.

Seriously, nothing like DDO out there. Wild West of the internet.

Sig'd

Put (on YouTube) after that, so it's clear.
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Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

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Nidhogg
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11/29/2012 3:02:15 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/28/2012 7:11:14 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
I've seen similar censorship and ostracism tactics employed in Christian forums, even Christian and Muslim facebook groups. Religious people don't really have a proud tradition of encouraging free speech; some even go as far to push for worldwide blasphemy laws, which would make it illegal to say anything critical about religion. All of this serves to keep the religious bubble intact. When you have a belief system so fragile in its relationship to reality, measures like those implemented on Craig's website become necessary.

Don't forget Militant Atheism's desire to push out all religion by law. Anyone should be able to believe what they want.
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wiploc
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11/29/2012 4:40:56 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/28/2012 1:19:13 PM, Microsuck wrote:
... William Lane Craig is losing. ...

So far, WLC has revealed a three-step campaign:

1. Disable comments on YouTube.
2. Bring mods on-board to ban loud dissenters.
3. Install software to negatively impact the voice of dissenters who cannot be banned for actual offenses. ...

It appears that, wherever you look, religion is loosing the argument.

I suppose it could mean he's losing the argument, but it could also mean that our side has been doing a lot of disruption and trolling.

If an atheist had to disable YouTube comments, and ban disruptive posters, and do whatever software thing, I wouldn't even suspect that meant he was losing some argument. Therefore, I'll not assume that in this case either.
Nidhogg
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11/29/2012 6:37:38 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/28/2012 7:06:45 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 11/28/2012 6:35:41 PM, Nidhogg wrote:
At 11/28/2012 4:46:07 PM, OberHerr wrote:
Seems to me their winning at stopping annoying YouTube trolls from having comment flame wars.

Seriously, nothing like DDO out there. Wild West of the internet.

Sig'd

That's a lot funnier than I intended, now that I look at it.
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phantom
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11/29/2012 7:42:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/29/2012 4:42:34 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
In all fairness youtube comments are the lowest form of conversation.

Truth. I hate that place sometimes. So full of arrogance, ignorance and intolerance. I used to try. I got my one comment voted down completely and all the comment was about was basically saying religion had good as well as bad and that atheists should be aware of the good side and be tolerant of it. Oh yeah, it was also in reply to someone's comment (which was the top voted) that implied that no religious people were intelligent...I find the philosophy videos are better though.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
naturebeckles
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11/29/2012 9:17:00 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
: At 11/29/2012 7:47:00 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
So....how does this show he's losing the argument exactly? Because there is now moderation?



the way I read the post is not simply the censorship, but the voting system. I used to play a game called Sorority Life on FB. If some "house" didn't like a certain person on the game, even if they did nothing wrong, that "house" would band together and go report comments that person made on somebody's profile until that person would get a 10 day or permanent mute on the game. Because FB's and Playdom's policys didn't look at the actual complaint or situation. They'd just ban or mute people by sheer number of reports.

Similarly, many of you should surely realize that if Atheists are purposely getting voted down because they're a known atheist and not because they broke any rules of the forum, while the Christians consistently got positive votes just by being Christian, then it shows the Christians are losing the argument. Because if you were winning the argument, you would have no need to superficially downgrade your opponent for no good reason whatsoever. If the goal is to get your opponent censored or banned to either just piss them off or claim that you won, then you didn't win at all. That in of itself must mean you're losing your argument.

I'm sure, of course, that some of the Christians here will argue against that point like the Christians on this other forum are just all so innocent and wouldn't do such a thing and the Atheists are just mad that they're "losing arguments" on this other forum.
"Adapt what is useful, reject what is useless, and add what is specifically your own." Bruce Lee
phantom
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11/29/2012 9:27:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/29/2012 9:17:00 PM, naturebeckles wrote:
: At 11/29/2012 7:47:00 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
So....how does this show he's losing the argument exactly? Because there is now moderation?



the way I read the post is not simply the censorship, but the voting system. I used to play a game called Sorority Life on FB. If some "house" didn't like a certain person on the game, even if they did nothing wrong, that "house" would band together and go report comments that person made on somebody's profile until that person would get a 10 day or permanent mute on the game. Because FB's and Playdom's policys didn't look at the actual complaint or situation. They'd just ban or mute people by sheer number of reports.

Similarly, many of you should surely realize that if Atheists are purposely getting voted down because they're a known atheist and not because they broke any rules of the forum, while the Christians consistently got positive votes just by being Christian, then it shows the Christians are losing the argument. Because if you were winning the argument, you would have no need to superficially downgrade your opponent for no good reason whatsoever. If the goal is to get your opponent censored or banned to either just piss them off or claim that you won, then you didn't win at all. That in of itself must mean you're losing your argument.

I'm sure, of course, that some of the Christians here will argue against that point like the Christians on this other forum are just all so innocent and wouldn't do such a thing and the Atheists are just mad that they're "losing arguments" on this other forum.

It's like that on probably any forum with that set-up that has any large majority whether it be religious, politics or sports. A Liverpool FC forum I was on once for example, had the same vote down/up thing and Manchester United fans would certainly get voted down a lot easier. If there isn't diversity, it's inevitable.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
naturebeckles
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11/29/2012 9:29:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/29/2012 9:27:49 PM, phantom wrote:
At 11/29/2012 9:17:00 PM, naturebeckles wrote:
: At 11/29/2012 7:47:00 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
So....how does this show he's losing the argument exactly? Because there is now moderation?



the way I read the post is not simply the censorship, but the voting system. I used to play a game called Sorority Life on FB. If some "house" didn't like a certain person on the game, even if they did nothing wrong, that "house" would band together and go report comments that person made on somebody's profile until that person would get a 10 day or permanent mute on the game. Because FB's and Playdom's policys didn't look at the actual complaint or situation. They'd just ban or mute people by sheer number of reports.

Similarly, many of you should surely realize that if Atheists are purposely getting voted down because they're a known atheist and not because they broke any rules of the forum, while the Christians consistently got positive votes just by being Christian, then it shows the Christians are losing the argument. Because if you were winning the argument, you would have no need to superficially downgrade your opponent for no good reason whatsoever. If the goal is to get your opponent censored or banned to either just piss them off or claim that you won, then you didn't win at all. That in of itself must mean you're losing your argument.

I'm sure, of course, that some of the Christians here will argue against that point like the Christians on this other forum are just all so innocent and wouldn't do such a thing and the Atheists are just mad that they're "losing arguments" on this other forum.

It's like that on probably any forum with that set-up that has any large majority whether it be religious, politics or sports. A Liverpool FC forum I was on once for example, had the same vote down/up thing and Manchester United fans would certainly get voted down a lot easier. If there isn't diversity, it's inevitable.

Yes and I think that's one of that dude's major complaints.
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naturebeckles
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11/29/2012 9:45:24 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I just want to add that I started reading a thread on that site about Craig against Dawkins does god exist. I can't log in or anything. And somebody was actually defending genocide, saying if the people were bad people, then killing them all isn't a bad thing.

Really.

Nothing like dehumanizing other people to justify actions that are obviously morally WRONG.
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truthseeker613
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11/29/2012 10:31:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/29/2012 4:40:56 PM, wiploc wrote:
At 11/28/2012 1:19:13 PM, Microsuck wrote:
... William Lane Craig is losing. ...

So far, WLC has revealed a three-step campaign:

1. Disable comments on YouTube.
2. Bring mods on-board to ban loud dissenters.
3. Install software to negatively impact the voice of dissenters who cannot be banned for actual offenses. ...

It appears that, wherever you look, religion is loosing the argument.

I suppose it could mean he's losing the argument, but it could also mean that our side has been doing a lot of disruption and trolling.

If an atheist had to disable YouTube comments, and ban disruptive posters, and do whatever software thing, I wouldn't even suspect that meant he was losing some argument. Therefore, I'll not assume that in this case either.

+1
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truthseeker613
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11/29/2012 10:33:07 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/29/2012 4:42:34 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
In all fairness youtube comments are the lowest form of conversation.
Like.
http://www.nydailynews.com...

royalpaladin: I'd rather support people who kill spies than a nation that organizes assassination squads (Kidon) to illegally enter into other nations and kill anybody who is not a Zionist. Who knows when they'll kill me for the crime of not supporting Israel?

Koopin: LOL! I just imagine Royal sitting in here apartment at night, when suddenly she hears a man outside speaking Hebrew as sh
Dirty.Harry
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12/4/2012 12:57:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/28/2012 1:19:13 PM, Microsuck wrote:
Note that this is not my original thread. This thread is from http://www.ex-christian.net... and I thought I'd copy it to get the opinion of DDO members.

I'm ready to go public on this. William Lane Craig is losing. That's the way I read the situation. I think his tightening of direct online input to his message is acknowledgement on his part that he is losing. Gotta control the atheist!

So far, WLC has revealed a three-step campaign:

1. Disable comments on YouTube.
2. Bring mods on-board to ban loud dissenters.
3. Install software to negatively impact the voice of dissenters who cannot be banned for actual offenses.

Back when I joined in July 2008, pretty much anything was allowed on his forums. Stalking, name-calling, mud-slinging. If you were a Christian you could do it. (Anyone who watches WLC on video knows he does it.) "Irenic and substantial discussion" are the rules for the forums but the rules were not enforced with any regularity. No mods were visible. Atheists were tolerated if they could stomach the treatment fired their way. There were only two or three of us so by unspoken agreement we spread ourselves out. We never posted in the same thread and we never disagreed with each other in public.

WLC posts his videos on YouTube but disables comments. People are supposed to come to the forums to discuss things. So we got lots of atheists and skeptics on the forums. Also Christians. Some Christians slap the term "troll" on anyone they disagree with, which is atheists in general. I didn't realize that things were deteriorating. However, about a year ago a mod started posting. Within weeks, a second mod came on-board because there was too much work for the first guy.

People started getting banned. Warnings were posted online. It was a real cops-and-robbers situation.

Now they've installed new software that allows people to rack up reputation points--positive and negative. Some atheists who post regularly soon got into a hole as deep as -30 with one or two positive points, something like this: +2/-30. At the same time, atheists who play really, really nice and bend over backward to cater to the Christian population, can rack up something like this: +12/-3. A popular Christian might look like this: +27/-3. Last time I looked I was sitting at +4/-11. I have not been posting regularly but when I did I made very sure not to sling mud or call names. Nor did I stalk or commit any other internet crimes. I do call a spade a spade and ask difficult (forbidden?) questions. Compare with the one unpopular Christian poster I'm aware of: +6/-8.

With this kind of negatively unbalanced numbers on one's "face" or avatar, newbies will take one look and decide not to take you very seriously despite the actual tone or quality of your post. I think it also impacts old-timers who don't want to be seen associating with "bad guys." There are also those who think one more "smite" on a person who already has a lot of negative points won't make any difference. At the same time, they have the twisted notion that there is room for "redemption" by improving your posts. However, they're kicking you while you're down and they're not telling you what you're doing wrong. (On exC we reward individual posts we consider to be exceptionally good, which lets us know what people like to see, but no one is branded permanently.)

Looks to me like someone's losing and it's not the atheists.

WLC's forums go under the dubious name Reasonable Faith (http://www.reasonablefaith.org... ).


What do you think about this situation? It appears that this is the case in a lot of ultra-Christian websites and YouTube channels - disabling comments, censoring those that he disagrees with - and NephilimFree from YouTube even goes as far as blocking people.

It appears that, wherever you look, religion is loosing the argument.

You mean a bit like the removal of the discussion forum that used to be on the Richard Dawkins website?

Harry.
Wallstreetatheist
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12/5/2012 6:53:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 11/29/2012 6:37:38 PM, Nidhogg wrote:
At 11/28/2012 7:06:45 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
At 11/28/2012 6:35:41 PM, Nidhogg wrote:
At 11/28/2012 4:46:07 PM, OberHerr wrote:
Seems to me their winning at stopping annoying YouTube trolls from having comment flame wars.

Seriously, nothing like DDO out there. Wild West of the internet.

Sig'd

That's a lot funnier than I intended, now that I look at it.

I thought it was a befitting description of the site. DDO is a canvas of free expression where most everything goes, but if you step out of line your brush will be taken away.
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