Total Posts:47|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

The Crusades; ergo, religion is bad.

Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2012 1:10:32 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Why do the irreligious use past religious events in an attempt to show that religion is morally wrong?

For instance, Dr. Mengele's experiments during the Holocaust were obviously evil, but does this show that science is morally wrong?

I'm interested to hear responses.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2012 1:21:22 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Personally, I've never seen an irreligious person use the crusades to argue that religion is morally wrong. Maybe you have.

I've just seen them use it to say that religion has had a track record composed mostly of stupid shit.

But hey, Mao did even worse in the name of Atheism. So I'm not defending anyone here. I think organized opinions in general have never gotten us much good.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2012 1:25:25 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/4/2012 1:21:22 AM, FREEDO wrote:
Personally, I've never seen an irreligious person use the crusades to argue that religion is morally wrong. Maybe you have.

I've just seen them use it to say that religion has had a track record composed mostly of stupid shit.

But hey, Mao did even worse in the name of Atheism. So I'm not defending anyone here. I think organized opinions in general have never gotten us much good.

I had a debate over religious morality with a noob (http://www.debate.org...) and one of his arguments was that "Religion has constantly proved to have caused troubles within our history." Of course, that isn't the first time.

Why else point out "that religion has had a track record composed mostly of stupid shit" other than to make a claim about the morality of religion? Perhaps I'm missing something.

Even if religion proved time and time again to function poorly or become corrupt, there wouldn't be anything intrinsically morally wrong about it, would there?
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2012 1:31:15 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I think Hitler's attempt to cleanse the world of Jews and create a supreme race of blonde haired, blue eyed white people could also be argued as being based on Darwinian principles, which are obviously atheistic.

It's also interesting to note that the Encyclopedia of War states that only about 7% of all wars in recorded history were actually religious in nature. That leaves 93% that were fought for non-religious reasons. If that's the case, then isn't it non-religion that is the bad guy here??
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2012 1:34:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I think there's a clear line between practicality and "morality". Mostly, in that we all know what practicality is and I needed to put quotation marks around morality.

Many Atheists and probably most of the Atheists who are active on this site are also Moral Nihilists.

I would, in-fact, be one to make the case that morality is impractical. Which is to say that organized systems of ethics actually cause more harm than help.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Posts: 2,900
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2012 1:37:49 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
The Crusades; ergo, religion is good.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2012 1:39:22 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/4/2012 1:37:49 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
The Crusades; ergo, religion is good.

+ 1. This.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2012 1:40:57 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/4/2012 1:31:15 AM, medic0506 wrote:

It's also interesting to note that the Encyclopedia of War states that only about 7% of all wars in recorded history were actually religious in nature. That leaves 93% that were fought for non-religious reasons. If that's the case, then isn't it non-religion that is the bad guy here??

LOL wow. Even more of those were started by men. When are we going to finally do something about them?
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

https://i.imgflip.com...
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2012 1:47:50 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/4/2012 1:40:57 AM, Maikuru wrote:
At 12/4/2012 1:31:15 AM, medic0506 wrote:

It's also interesting to note that the Encyclopedia of War states that only about 7% of all wars in recorded history were actually religious in nature. That leaves 93% that were fought for non-religious reasons. If that's the case, then isn't it non-religion that is the bad guy here??

LOL wow. Even more of those were started by men. When are we going to finally do something about them?

Ok, so let's get rid of all the non-religious men and see if the religious men still cause atrocities. If so then we'll have proof that religion is probably bad.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2012 1:49:01 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/4/2012 1:39:22 AM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 12/4/2012 1:37:49 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
The Crusades; ergo, religion is good.

+ 1. This.

Um.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2012 1:51:27 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/4/2012 1:49:01 AM, FREEDO wrote:
At 12/4/2012 1:39:22 AM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 12/4/2012 1:37:49 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
The Crusades; ergo, religion is good.

+ 1. This.

Um.

It's a joke.

But without the Crusades, I wouldn't have these cool little Crusader miniatures I bought from a flea market one time.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
Composer
Posts: 5,858
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2012 5:50:33 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/4/2012 1:47:50 AM, medic0506 wrote:
Ok, so let's get rid of all the non-religious men and see if the religious men still cause atrocities. If so then we'll have proof that religion is probably bad.

Recent Data already confirms ALL religions & Cults like yours are extremely bad for Socity and it takes secular ideology to demonstrate a decent & superior Society -

To sum up:

In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy, and abortion in the prosperous democracies... The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developed democracies, sometimes spectacularly so, and almost always scores poorly. The view of the U.S. as a "shining city on the hill" to the rest of the world is falsified when it comes to basic measures of societal health.
["]
Although they are by no means utopias, the populations of secular democracies are clearly able to govern themselves and maintain societal cohesion. Indeed, the data examined in this study demonstrates that only the more secular, pro-evolution democracies have, for the first time in history, come closest to achieving practical "cultures of life" that feature low rates of lethal crime, juvenile-adult mortality, sex related dysfunction, and even abortion. The least theistic secular developed democracies such as Japan, France, and Scandinavia have been most successful in these regards. (Source: http://stupac2.blogspot.com.au...)

Your mentor & personal successful literal Saviour, moi!

Me Composer the ongoing successful & vindicated Cult buster!
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2012 6:17:10 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
They tend to believe that these events are in line with commands from religions, i.e., Christianity supporting crusades against non-believers.
iamnotwhoiam
Posts: 171
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2012 6:36:14 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/4/2012 1:21:22 AM, FREEDO wrote:
But hey, Mao did even worse in the name of Atheism.

Mao did plenty in the name of the CP of China. I don't think he did anything in the name of atheism. Very different to the Crusades, which were fought in the name of Christianity.

...The Crusades don't mean Christianity is inherently morally wrong, but they are part of an argument against Christianity being a positive force historically. In that argument we are looking at practical outcomes as opposed to morality per se.
iamnotwhoiam
Posts: 171
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2012 6:37:30 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/4/2012 1:31:15 AM, medic0506 wrote:
I think Hitler's attempt to cleanse the world of Jews and create a supreme race of blonde haired, blue eyed white people could also be argued as being based on Darwinian principles, which are obviously atheistic.


Care to debate me on this point? I say it's BS.
phantom
Posts: 6,774
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2012 7:20:09 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/4/2012 1:39:22 AM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 12/4/2012 1:37:49 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
The Crusades; ergo, religion is good.

+ 1. This.

Why do you have the same avatar now! I was already mixing you two up all the time.
"Music is a zen-like ecstatic state where you become the new man of the future, the Nietzschean merger of Apollo and Dionysus." Ray Manzarek (The Doors)
YYW
Posts: 36,391
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2012 8:55:08 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/4/2012 1:10:32 AM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
Why do the irreligious use past religious events in an attempt to show that religion is morally wrong?

Because they are stupid.

For instance, Dr. Mengele's experiments during the Holocaust were obviously evil, but does this show that science is morally wrong?

Obviously.

I'm interested to hear responses.

lol

But in all seriousness though, judging the faith by the followers is like judging the United States by the KKK.
Tsar of DDO
TheAntidoter
Posts: 4,323
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2012 9:01:17 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/4/2012 6:37:30 AM, iamnotwhoiam wrote:
At 12/4/2012 1:31:15 AM, medic0506 wrote:
I think Hitler's attempt to cleanse the world of Jews and create a supreme race of blonde haired, blue eyed white people could also be argued as being based on Darwinian principles, which are obviously atheistic.


Care to debate me on this point? I say it's BS.

He said COULD, not IS.
Affinity: Fire
Class: Human
Abilities: ????

Nac.

WOAH, COLORED FONT!
iamnotwhoiam
Posts: 171
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2012 9:38:52 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/4/2012 9:01:17 AM, TheAntidoter wrote:
At 12/4/2012 6:37:30 AM, iamnotwhoiam wrote:
At 12/4/2012 1:31:15 AM, medic0506 wrote:
I think Hitler's attempt to cleanse the world of Jews and create a supreme race of blonde haired, blue eyed white people could also be argued as being based on Darwinian principles, which are obviously atheistic.


Care to debate me on this point? I say it's BS.

He said COULD, not IS.

Obviously he meant to imply that it might be true. However, it isn't true. It's creationist propaganda.
TheAntidoter
Posts: 4,323
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2012 9:45:50 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/4/2012 9:38:52 AM, iamnotwhoiam wrote:
At 12/4/2012 9:01:17 AM, TheAntidoter wrote:
At 12/4/2012 6:37:30 AM, iamnotwhoiam wrote:
At 12/4/2012 1:31:15 AM, medic0506 wrote:
I think Hitler's attempt to cleanse the world of Jews and create a supreme race of blonde haired, blue eyed white people could also be argued as being based on Darwinian principles, which are obviously atheistic.


Care to debate me on this point? I say it's BS.

He said COULD, not IS.

Obviously he meant to imply that it might be true. However, it isn't true. It's creationist propaganda.

Even if it wasn't true, Medic could still prove it.
Affinity: Fire
Class: Human
Abilities: ????

Nac.

WOAH, COLORED FONT!
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,926
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2012 9:48:59 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
I think the argument here is something like this (focused on christianity): christianity claims to be a religion of love, yet, all too often, christians are very unloving. Christisns claim that when they are accepted into the fold here on earth the grace and love of God infuses them and motivates them to be loving (indeed, this is what Jesud taught), yet, strangely enough, there doesn't seem to be much of a qualitative difference between christians and non-christians. you would think that with such holy guidance as that there'd be some more empirical results. It makes these claims of the religion of love ring very hollow. It's like that abusive husband who beats and degrades his wife all the while insisting he really cherises and loves her above all things. Actions belie the word.

The same with how many christians claim moral authority.It seems rather implausible to the skeptic because christians claim this sort of authority yet, strangely enough, seem to be on the wrong side of moral progress. See: slavery, women's rights, etc. The examples are endless. It's hard to take these claims of moral authority credibly when christians are so often and astoundingingly incorrect on moral issues. Not only incorrect, but they use their claims to divine authority to legitimate these moral horrors.

Whiie I am a christian and I don't find these sort of argumens decisive let's not pretend that these people aren't raising legitimate points. It's easy to see what sort of argument would motivate that sort of sentiment as expressed by the op if you just think about it.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,926
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2012 9:52:56 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Also, i wrote that from my phone.....so if there's a lot of errors too bad. (^_^)
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
emospongebob527
Posts: 790
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2012 10:07:12 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/4/2012 1:10:32 AM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
Why do the irreligious use past religious events in an attempt to show that religion is morally wrong?

For instance, Dr. Mengele's experiments during the Holocaust were obviously evil, but does this show that science is morally wrong?

I'm interested to hear responses.

You're a liar, stop trying to justify your bigotry, misogyny and homophobia.
"not to toot my own horn (it aint need no tooin if u know what im saying), but my writings on "viciousness: the one true viture (fancy spelling for virtue)" and my poem "A poem I wrote about DDO" put me in a class of my damn own. im just an UNRECONGIZED geniuse" -bananafana
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2012 10:15:22 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/4/2012 6:37:30 AM, iamnotwhoiam wrote:
At 12/4/2012 1:31:15 AM, medic0506 wrote:
I think Hitler's attempt to cleanse the world of Jews and create a supreme race of blonde haired, blue eyed white people could also be argued as being based on Darwinian principles, which are obviously atheistic.


Care to debate me on this point? I say it's BS.

What is it about that statement that you disagree with and want to debate??
emospongebob527
Posts: 790
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2012 10:32:10 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/4/2012 1:31:15 AM, medic0506 wrote:
I think Hitler's attempt to cleanse the world of Jews

Nope, he was cleansing the world of inferior people.

and create a supreme race of blonde haired, blue eyed white people could also be argued as being based on Darwinian principles, which are obviously atheistic.

Wow, so much BS just came out at once.


It's also interesting to note that the Encyclopedia of War states that only about 7% of all wars in recorded history were actually religious in nature. That leaves 93% that were fought for non-religious reasons. If that's the case, then isn't it non-religion that is the bad guy here??

Nice, love the strawmans.
"not to toot my own horn (it aint need no tooin if u know what im saying), but my writings on "viciousness: the one true viture (fancy spelling for virtue)" and my poem "A poem I wrote about DDO" put me in a class of my damn own. im just an UNRECONGIZED geniuse" -bananafana
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Posts: 2,900
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2012 11:41:45 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/4/2012 7:20:09 AM, phantom wrote:
At 12/4/2012 1:39:22 AM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 12/4/2012 1:37:49 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
The Crusades; ergo, religion is good.

+ 1. This.

Why do you have the same avatar now! I was already mixing you two up all the time.

nurbs is my multiaccount.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
iamnotwhoiam
Posts: 171
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2012 12:08:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/4/2012 10:15:22 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 12/4/2012 6:37:30 AM, iamnotwhoiam wrote:
At 12/4/2012 1:31:15 AM, medic0506 wrote:
I think Hitler's attempt to cleanse the world of Jews and create a supreme race of blonde haired, blue eyed white people could also be argued as being based on Darwinian principles, which are obviously atheistic.


Care to debate me on this point? I say it's BS.

What is it about that statement that you disagree with and want to debate??

That Hitler's actions were based on Darwinian principles.

It's complete nonsense. Let's debate it. :-)
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2012 12:35:25 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/4/2012 11:41:45 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 12/4/2012 7:20:09 AM, phantom wrote:
At 12/4/2012 1:39:22 AM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 12/4/2012 1:37:49 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
The Crusades; ergo, religion is good.

+ 1. This.

Why do you have the same avatar now! I was already mixing you two up all the time.

nurbs is my multiaccount.

No, you're my multiaccount.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Posts: 2,900
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2012 12:53:03 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/4/2012 12:35:25 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 12/4/2012 11:41:45 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 12/4/2012 7:20:09 AM, phantom wrote:
At 12/4/2012 1:39:22 AM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 12/4/2012 1:37:49 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
The Crusades; ergo, religion is good.

+ 1. This.

Why do you have the same avatar now! I was already mixing you two up all the time.

nurbs is my multiaccount.

No, you're my multiaccount.

I'm the original. You're the multi.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
Nidhogg
Posts: 503
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/4/2012 2:33:18 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/4/2012 9:38:52 AM, iamnotwhoiam wrote:
At 12/4/2012 9:01:17 AM, TheAntidoter wrote:
At 12/4/2012 6:37:30 AM, iamnotwhoiam wrote:
At 12/4/2012 1:31:15 AM, medic0506 wrote:
I think Hitler's attempt to cleanse the world of Jews and create a supreme race of blonde haired, blue eyed white people could also be argued as being based on Darwinian principles, which are obviously atheistic.


Care to debate me on this point? I say it's BS.

He said COULD, not IS.

Obviously he meant to imply that it might be true. However, it isn't true. It's creationist propaganda.

It is true, as I will now prove
Darwinism states:
Superior species survive while the lesser ones die out
Hitler's philosophy:
Aryans are a superior race, thus all lesser races must die out
Ridiculously Photogenic Debater

DDO's most mediocre member since at least a year ago