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En Amour

Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
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12/6/2012 8:33:47 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Be welcomed in a philosopher's world; I apologize now for this terrible thought.

You are an 18 year old male the 1940's, standing in line to enlist as a marine. Others around you are eager to do good for their country but you are fully indifferent to duty or the war effort. You're different than them, focussed- torn.

While standing in line you reflect on the only two truths you've ever known: both of which are together fully dependent on what you choose in the next few moments. Everything in your life culminates to this fulcrum.

The first conditional truth, you'll fall in love with a beautiful French girl months after a successful landing in Normandy. You'll bring out the best in her and she in you. No lovers have ever known this love- it is pure being made whole, pure felicity made flesh, pure joy made real, and pure heaven fully known.

The second conditional truth, years after an even happier marriage and an even deeper relationship, you'll die on a combat mission, causing her to suffer the rest of her life, and never to marry again. Ultimately, and with the pain of life she takes her own. While thinking of you in the end her last words were those you first spoke to her in a once, allied victory so many years ago.

... Now there you are, in line to enlist completely on your own accord, and completely unafraid of dying. Fate aside, you can easily go on about your life and become a businessman in your quaint hometown.

But you're conflicted, on one hand you're certain that enlistment into the marine corps is necessary for your relationship with your potential love. While on the other hand your certain death in combat will grieve her so much that she'll suffer pointlessly.

Herein lies the question, you're in line still-

1) do you choose to remain in line and enlist? If so, can you be said not love her if you don't yet know her?

2) do you choose to step out of line? If so, would such a life be feasible?
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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12/6/2012 8:37:43 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Option 1, IMO.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Apeiron
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12/6/2012 8:40:09 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/6/2012 8:39:43 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 12/6/2012 8:37:43 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Option 1, IMO.

Then can you be said not to love her?

Or to be unloving towards her?
Paradox_7
Posts: 1,870
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12/6/2012 8:46:42 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/6/2012 8:40:09 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 12/6/2012 8:39:43 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 12/6/2012 8:37:43 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Option 1, IMO.

Then can you be said not to love her?

Or to be unloving towards her?

I don't think so, as the saying goes: It's better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all.

Moreover, if this woman were a Christian, she would be much stronger (imo) and wouldn't kill herself, but would continue to live a full life, and possibly love another again...

Unless, your scenario is supposed to be hypothetical.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Apeiron
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12/6/2012 8:49:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/6/2012 8:46:42 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
At 12/6/2012 8:40:09 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 12/6/2012 8:39:43 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 12/6/2012 8:37:43 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
Option 1, IMO.

Then can you be said not to love her?

Or to be unloving towards her?

I don't think so, as the saying goes: It's better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all.

Moreover, if this woman were a Christian, she would be much stronger (imo) and wouldn't kill herself, but would continue to live a full life, and possibly love another again...

Unless, your scenario is supposed to be hypothetical.

I celebrate your view!

"It's better to have loved and lost, than never to have loved at all."
OMGJustinBieber
Posts: 3,484
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12/6/2012 8:59:17 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I'm not sure if I totally understand. Does conditional truth 2 follow necessarily from CT 1? Or are they two different time lines? If not, how much time do I have with her before I die?
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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12/6/2012 9:04:19 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
If not for her suffering, I would choose option 1. As it stands, I would choose 2.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

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Apeiron
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12/6/2012 9:31:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/6/2012 9:04:19 PM, Maikuru wrote:
If not for her suffering, I would choose option 1. As it stands, I would choose 2.

Ok interesting thanks, now would that be a feasible life?
Apeiron
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12/6/2012 9:33:28 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/6/2012 8:59:17 PM, OMGJustinBieber wrote:
I'm not sure if I totally understand. Does conditional truth 2 follow necessarily from CT 1? Or are they two different time lines? If not, how much time do I have with her before I die?

Oh, yes 2 follows from 1-

That's what I meant by them being chosen together,.... sorry about that.
Apeiron
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12/6/2012 9:38:27 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/6/2012 9:04:19 PM, Maikuru wrote:
If not for her suffering, I would choose option 1. As it stands, I would choose 2.

And I don't mean for you to answer if it'd be feasible or not here and now, that's just something to think about personally, Maikuru.
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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12/6/2012 9:38:44 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/6/2012 9:31:27 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 12/6/2012 9:04:19 PM, Maikuru wrote:
If not for her suffering, I would choose option 1. As it stands, I would choose 2.

Ok interesting thanks, now would that be a feasible life?

People give up love every day. Bogart seemed okay at the end of Casa Blanca.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

https://i.imgflip.com...
Apeiron
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12/6/2012 9:48:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/6/2012 9:38:44 PM, Maikuru wrote:
At 12/6/2012 9:31:27 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 12/6/2012 9:04:19 PM, Maikuru wrote:
If not for her suffering, I would choose option 1. As it stands, I would choose 2.

Ok interesting thanks, now would that be a feasible life?

People give up love every day. Bogart seemed okay at the end of Casa Blanca.

Haha yes that's true, in fact more people probably give up love than not. But that's not the question I want you and everyone here to consider philosophically.

The question posed to Bogart, you, those who would choose #2- is such a possible world feasible, given that you don't fear death, she doesn't exist to you yet, all that other background knowledge I provided?

I mean you've really got to put yourself in this enlistee's shoes here to grasp a good philosophical answer.
DanielChristopherBlowes
Posts: 1,066
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12/7/2012 1:34:29 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/6/2012 8:33:47 PM, Apeiron wrote:
Be welcomed in a philosopher's world; I apologize now for this terrible thought.

You are an 18 year old male the 1940's, standing in line to enlist as a marine. Others around you are eager to do good for their country but you are fully indifferent to duty or the war effort. You're different than them, focussed- torn.

While standing in line you reflect on the only two truths you've ever known: both of which are together fully dependent on what you choose in the next few moments. Everything in your life culminates to this fulcrum.

The first conditional truth, you'll fall in love with a beautiful French girl months after a successful landing in Normandy. You'll bring out the best in her and she in you. No lovers have ever known this love- it is pure being made whole, pure felicity made flesh, pure joy made real, and pure heaven fully known.

The second conditional truth, years after an even happier marriage and an even deeper relationship, you'll die on a combat mission, causing her to suffer the rest of her life, and never to marry again. Ultimately, and with the pain of life she takes her own. While thinking of you in the end her last words were those you first spoke to her in a once, allied victory so many years ago.

... Now there you are, in line to enlist completely on your own accord, and completely unafraid of dying. Fate aside, you can easily go on about your life and become a businessman in your quaint hometown.

But you're conflicted, on one hand you're certain that enlistment into the marine corps is necessary for your relationship with your potential love. While on the other hand your certain death in combat will grieve her so much that she'll suffer pointlessly.

Herein lies the question, you're in line still-

1) do you choose to remain in line and enlist? If so, can you be said not love her if you don't yet know her?

2) do you choose to step out of line? If so, would such a life be feasible?

This is the reason we don't or cannot know the future; we would be immobile.
Everyone on the side of Truth listens to Me. (Jesus Christ)
M.Torres
Posts: 3,626
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12/7/2012 1:47:46 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
I don't quite understand why this is in Religion, but anyway.

This question necessitates too many other questions. Would I know the girl's name, face, location, etc? Or would me not enlisting mean I would never come to know any detail of the girl?
: At 11/28/2011 1:28:24 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
: M. Torres said it, so it must be right.

I'm an Apatheistic Ignostic. ... problem? ;D

I believe in the heart of the cards. .:DDO Duelist:.
Apeiron
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12/7/2012 3:32:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/7/2012 1:34:29 PM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 12/6/2012 8:33:47 PM, Apeiron wrote:
Be welcomed in a philosopher's world; I apologize now for this terrible thought.

You are an 18 year old male the 1940's, standing in line to enlist as a marine. Others around you are eager to do good for their country but you are fully indifferent to duty or the war effort. You're different than them, focussed- torn.

While standing in line you reflect on the only two truths you've ever known: both of which are together fully dependent on what you choose in the next few moments. Everything in your life culminates to this fulcrum.

The first conditional truth, you'll fall in love with a beautiful French girl months after a successful landing in Normandy. You'll bring out the best in her and she in you. No lovers have ever known this love- it is pure being made whole, pure felicity made flesh, pure joy made real, and pure heaven fully known.

The second conditional truth, years after an even happier marriage and an even deeper relationship, you'll die on a combat mission, causing her to suffer the rest of her life, and never to marry again. Ultimately, and with the pain of life she takes her own. While thinking of you in the end her last words were those you first spoke to her in a once, allied victory so many years ago.

... Now there you are, in line to enlist completely on your own accord, and completely unafraid of dying. Fate aside, you can easily go on about your life and become a businessman in your quaint hometown.

But you're conflicted, on one hand you're certain that enlistment into the marine corps is necessary for your relationship with your potential love. While on the other hand your certain death in combat will grieve her so much that she'll suffer pointlessly.

Herein lies the question, you're in line still-

1) do you choose to remain in line and enlist? If so, can you be said not love her if you don't yet know her?

2) do you choose to step out of line? If so, would such a life be feasible?

This is the reason we don't or cannot know the future; we would be immobile.

It's a tough decision but see if you can reason a solid answer to 1 or 2? I think it's a good thought experiment.
Apeiron
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12/7/2012 3:38:55 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/7/2012 1:47:46 PM, M.Torres wrote:
I don't quite understand why this is in Religion, but anyway.

This question necessitates too many other questions. Would I know the girl's name, face, location, etc? Or would me not enlisting mean I would never come to know any detail of the girl?

Thanks M.Torres, after I get a decent discussion on here I'm going to sharpen the analogy and so it will become obvious why it is in the religious section. Stay with me!

In answer to your question, the details by description aren't really that important other than you know for certain that a girl, who doesn't yet exist in your world, will relate to you in love & passion etc. Like I said it's all contingent upon whether you enlist, NOT what happens after. I hope this helps!

Second question- your un-enlistment would only mean that you would have to exist knowing that the love she could've had with you, despite her subsequent pointless suffering upon your death, would never occur.

If that's the case & you choose that option, then would such a possible world be feasible?
Dirty.Harry
Posts: 1,589
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12/7/2012 3:42:51 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/6/2012 8:33:47 PM, Apeiron wrote:
Be welcomed in a philosopher's world; I apologize now for this terrible thought.

You are an 18 year old male the 1940's, standing in line to enlist as a marine. Others around you are eager to do good for their country but you are fully indifferent to duty or the war effort. You're different than them, focussed- torn.

While standing in line you reflect on the only two truths you've ever known: both of which are together fully dependent on what you choose in the next few moments. Everything in your life culminates to this fulcrum.

The first conditional truth, you'll fall in love with a beautiful French girl months after a successful landing in Normandy. You'll bring out the best in her and she in you. No lovers have ever known this love- it is pure being made whole, pure felicity made flesh, pure joy made real, and pure heaven fully known.

The second conditional truth, years after an even happier marriage and an even deeper relationship, you'll die on a combat mission, causing her to suffer the rest of her life, and never to marry again. Ultimately, and with the pain of life she takes her own. While thinking of you in the end her last words were those you first spoke to her in a once, allied victory so many years ago.

... Now there you are, in line to enlist completely on your own accord, and completely unafraid of dying. Fate aside, you can easily go on about your life and become a businessman in your quaint hometown.

But you're conflicted, on one hand you're certain that enlistment into the marine corps is necessary for your relationship with your potential love. While on the other hand your certain death in combat will grieve her so much that she'll suffer pointlessly.

Herein lies the question, you're in line still-

1) do you choose to remain in line and enlist? If so, can you be said not love her if you don't yet know her?

2) do you choose to step out of line? If so, would such a life be feasible?

I think the conflict is real but is present in almost every decision we make, one can always identify similar pros/cons no matter what the decision itself entails.

Harry.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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12/7/2012 3:44:05 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Lets see, ignoring the problems with however it is I know the future...

If I don't love her YET, and I know how much I WOULD, then I would obviously choose to have her.

But, in hindsight, if I were to go back in time and make a different decision after dying, I would have chose to never enlist--out of love.

Not that it changes what the best decision is. I'm just saying what the scenario would most likely influence me to choose.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Apeiron
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12/7/2012 4:02:50 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/7/2012 3:42:51 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 12/6/2012 8:33:47 PM, Apeiron wrote:
Be welcomed in a philosopher's world; I apologize now for this terrible thought.

You are an 18 year old male the 1940's, standing in line to enlist as a marine. Others around you are eager to do good for their country but you are fully indifferent to duty or the war effort. You're different than them, focussed- torn.

While standing in line you reflect on the only two truths you've ever known: both of which are together fully dependent on what you choose in the next few moments. Everything in your life culminates to this fulcrum.

The first conditional truth, you'll fall in love with a beautiful French girl months after a successful landing in Normandy. You'll bring out the best in her and she in you. No lovers have ever known this love- it is pure being made whole, pure felicity made flesh, pure joy made real, and pure heaven fully known.

The second conditional truth, years after an even happier marriage and an even deeper relationship, you'll die on a combat mission, causing her to suffer the rest of her life, and never to marry again. Ultimately, and with the pain of life she takes her own. While thinking of you in the end her last words were those you first spoke to her in a once, allied victory so many years ago.

... Now there you are, in line to enlist completely on your own accord, and completely unafraid of dying. Fate aside, you can easily go on about your life and become a businessman in your quaint hometown.

But you're conflicted, on one hand you're certain that enlistment into the marine corps is necessary for your relationship with your potential love. While on the other hand your certain death in combat will grieve her so much that she'll suffer pointlessly.

Herein lies the question, you're in line still-

1) do you choose to remain in line and enlist? If so, can you be said not love her if you don't yet know her?

2) do you choose to step out of line? If so, would such a life be feasible?

I think the conflict is real but is present in almost every decision we make, one can always identify similar pros/cons no matter what the decision itself entails.

Harry.

You make an interesting point. Do you believe in life that there is in fact no "best option" but rather we just simply create and sustain good things?
Apeiron
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12/7/2012 4:07:21 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/7/2012 3:44:05 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Lets see, ignoring the problems with however it is I know the future...

If I don't love her YET, and I know how much I WOULD, then I would obviously choose to have her.

But, in hindsight, if I were to go back in time and make a different decision after dying, I would have chose to never enlist--out of love.

Not that it changes what the best decision is. I'm just saying what the scenario would most likely influence me to choose.

I'm glad you ignored the irrelevant question of future knowledge, such is the practice with thought experiments... you should see what Einstein can do with two fluid balls in space! ;-)

I'm interested in your reasoning here after thinking about time travel,

Not that it changes what the best decision is

So are you in accord with Harry up there that implies there is no best option? But rather creating & sustaining a good thing?
THEBOMB
Posts: 2,872
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12/8/2012 10:49:50 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/6/2012 8:33:47 PM, Apeiron wrote:
Be welcomed in a philosopher's world; I apologize now for this terrible thought.

You are an 18 year old male the 1940's, standing in line to enlist as a marine. Others around you are eager to do good for their country but you are fully indifferent to duty or the war effort. You're different than them, focussed- torn.

While standing in line you reflect on the only two truths you've ever known: both of which are together fully dependent on what you choose in the next few moments. Everything in your life culminates to this fulcrum.

The first conditional truth, you'll fall in love with a beautiful French girl months after a successful landing in Normandy. You'll bring out the best in her and she in you. No lovers have ever known this love- it is pure being made whole, pure felicity made flesh, pure joy made real, and pure heaven fully known.

The second conditional truth, years after an even happier marriage and an even deeper relationship, you'll die on a combat mission, causing her to suffer the rest of her life, and never to marry again. Ultimately, and with the pain of life she takes her own. While thinking of you in the end her last words were those you first spoke to her in a once, allied victory so many years ago.

... Now there you are, in line to enlist completely on your own accord, and completely unafraid of dying. Fate aside, you can easily go on about your life and become a businessman in your quaint hometown.

But you're conflicted, on one hand you're certain that enlistment into the marine corps is necessary for your relationship with your potential love. While on the other hand your certain death in combat will grieve her so much that she'll suffer pointlessly.

Herein lies the question, you're in line still-

1) do you choose to remain in line and enlist? If so, can you be said not love her if you don't yet know her?

2) do you choose to step out of line? If so, would such a life be feasible?

I would choose neither.
Dirty.Harry
Posts: 1,589
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12/8/2012 10:50:06 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/7/2012 4:02:50 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 12/7/2012 3:42:51 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 12/6/2012 8:33:47 PM, Apeiron wrote:
Be welcomed in a philosopher's world; I apologize now for this terrible thought.

You are an 18 year old male the 1940's, standing in line to enlist as a marine. Others around you are eager to do good for their country but you are fully indifferent to duty or the war effort. You're different than them, focussed- torn.

While standing in line you reflect on the only two truths you've ever known: both of which are together fully dependent on what you choose in the next few moments. Everything in your life culminates to this fulcrum.

The first conditional truth, you'll fall in love with a beautiful French girl months after a successful landing in Normandy. You'll bring out the best in her and she in you. No lovers have ever known this love- it is pure being made whole, pure felicity made flesh, pure joy made real, and pure heaven fully known.

The second conditional truth, years after an even happier marriage and an even deeper relationship, you'll die on a combat mission, causing her to suffer the rest of her life, and never to marry again. Ultimately, and with the pain of life she takes her own. While thinking of you in the end her last words were those you first spoke to her in a once, allied victory so many years ago.

... Now there you are, in line to enlist completely on your own accord, and completely unafraid of dying. Fate aside, you can easily go on about your life and become a businessman in your quaint hometown.

But you're conflicted, on one hand you're certain that enlistment into the marine corps is necessary for your relationship with your potential love. While on the other hand your certain death in combat will grieve her so much that she'll suffer pointlessly.

Herein lies the question, you're in line still-

1) do you choose to remain in line and enlist? If so, can you be said not love her if you don't yet know her?

2) do you choose to step out of line? If so, would such a life be feasible?

I think the conflict is real but is present in almost every decision we make, one can always identify similar pros/cons no matter what the decision itself entails.

Harry.

You make an interesting point. Do you believe in life that there is in fact no "best option" but rather we just simply create and sustain good things?

It's a very interesting subject - it entails the ability to predict consequences and evaluate relative merits of different possibilities. Even in Chess where chance plays no part it is impossible to decide a "best" course of action with 100% certainty.

Do you ever listen to saved episodes of In Our Time on the Radio 4 website?

Take a look: http://www.bbc.co.uk...

Harry.
Apeiron
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12/8/2012 1:06:35 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/8/2012 10:49:50 AM, THEBOMB wrote:
At 12/6/2012 8:33:47 PM, Apeiron wrote:
Be welcomed in a philosopher's world; I apologize now for this terrible thought.

You are an 18 year old male the 1940's, standing in line to enlist as a marine. Others around you are eager to do good for their country but you are fully indifferent to duty or the war effort. You're different than them, focussed- torn.

While standing in line you reflect on the only two truths you've ever known: both of which are together fully dependent on what you choose in the next few moments. Everything in your life culminates to this fulcrum.

The first conditional truth, you'll fall in love with a beautiful French girl months after a successful landing in Normandy. You'll bring out the best in her and she in you. No lovers have ever known this love- it is pure being made whole, pure felicity made flesh, pure joy made real, and pure heaven fully known.

The second conditional truth, years after an even happier marriage and an even deeper relationship, you'll die on a combat mission, causing her to suffer the rest of her life, and never to marry again. Ultimately, and with the pain of life she takes her own. While thinking of you in the end her last words were those you first spoke to her in a once, allied victory so many years ago.

... Now there you are, in line to enlist completely on your own accord, and completely unafraid of dying. Fate aside, you can easily go on about your life and become a businessman in your quaint hometown.

But you're conflicted, on one hand you're certain that enlistment into the marine corps is necessary for your relationship with your potential love. While on the other hand your certain death in combat will grieve her so much that she'll suffer pointlessly.

Herein lies the question, you're in line still-

1) do you choose to remain in line and enlist? If so, can you be said not love her if you don't yet know her?

2) do you choose to step out of line? If so, would such a life be feasible?

I would choose neither.

That doesn't make sense. Either you remain in line or not... choosing neither is- basically non existing.
Apeiron
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12/8/2012 3:49:34 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/8/2012 1:16:54 PM, iamnotwhoiam wrote:
I would stand out of line.

There are many women I could have a fulfilling love affair with. Some of them aren't even French.

How boring.
unitedandy
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12/8/2012 5:42:02 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Mmmm. I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark and say this is in the religious section for an ulterior motive. The PoE, perhaps?
Apeiron
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12/8/2012 6:05:12 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/8/2012 5:42:02 PM, unitedandy wrote:
Mmmm. I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark and say this is in the religious section for an ulterior motive. The PoE, perhaps?

My aren't you the conspiracy theorist lately? ;-)
unitedandy
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12/8/2012 6:22:49 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/8/2012 6:05:12 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 12/8/2012 5:42:02 PM, unitedandy wrote:
Mmmm. I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark and say this is in the religious section for an ulterior motive. The PoE, perhaps?

My aren't you the conspiracy theorist lately? ;-)

It's not paranoia when someone's out to get you. *looks nervously over shoulder*

It's also amusing you said that. You'll see why if my current R2 post for our debate survives edit.

On the post though, I'm probably reading too much into it, but whenever I read the words "suffer pointlessly" and feasible worlds in the religious section, well . . .
Apeiron
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12/8/2012 6:37:26 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/8/2012 6:22:49 PM, unitedandy wrote:
At 12/8/2012 6:05:12 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 12/8/2012 5:42:02 PM, unitedandy wrote:
Mmmm. I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark and say this is in the religious section for an ulterior motive. The PoE, perhaps?

My aren't you the conspiracy theorist lately? ;-)

It's not paranoia when someone's out to get you. *looks nervously over shoulder*

It's also amusing you said that. You'll see why if my current R2 post for our debate survives edit.

On the post though, I'm probably reading too much into it, but whenever I read the words "suffer pointlessly" and feasible worlds in the religious section, well . . .

Haha, want to at least take a poke at answering the post while you're here then?