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Some questions for Muslims

Dirty.Harry
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12/10/2012 8:50:30 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
Interestingly these questions came up several days ago in a different thread recently and the usually vocal and outspoken Muslims amongst us have gone strangely silent on ths, almost as if they are afraid to answer honestly

So please any Muslim who is not afraid to be honest with me:

Do you - as a devoted Muslim - believe a person should be punished for:

1. Homosexual behavior.
2. A man dressing as a female in public.
3. Leaving Islam and becoming a Christian.
4. Drawing an image of Mohamed.
5. Burning a copy of the Koran in public.

If you think punishment is justified then please for each act, tell me:

a. Who should administer the punishment?
b. What process should be used to decide guilt or innocence?
c. What specific punishment should be used?

Thanks

Harry.
baggins
Posts: 855
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12/10/2012 9:51:33 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/10/2012 8:50:30 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
Interestingly these questions came up several days ago in a different thread recently and the usually vocal and outspoken Muslims among us have gone strangely silent on ths, almost as if they are afraid to answer honestly

So please any Muslim who is not afraid to be honest with me:

The reason most Muslims are silent is, these issues distract people from issues which are more important. Being silent is not same as being dishonest. For example, homosexuality is considered wrong by most Muslims. However it does not mean that it is the most important issue in the world for them or that they will murder any and all homosexuals as soon as possible.

As far as Muslims are concerned there are two major and urgent problem in the world today...

1. There is increasing lack of religiousness in the world today. Religion and morality are becoming increasingly distant from day to day working of the world. People are giving too much emphasis to success and failure in this world forgetting that the hereafter is better and more enduring.

2. Violence is increasing all over the world. The victims are often (but not always) Muslims. In several cases the perpetrators are also Muslims.

Compared to these issues, the issues you have listed are minor. The major emphasis of Muslims is to explain the basics of our religion to all the world and to show how Islam can provide a solution to the problems facing the world today.

On other hand, I think it is essential that we do provide the perspective of Muslims on the issues you have listed. However please note that some Muslims may disagree with my opinion.

Do you - as a devoted Muslim - believe a person should be punished for:

1. Homosexual behavior.

As far as I understand, homosexuality is punishable. Muslims are divided as to whether the punishment should be flogging or death. However this rule is tempered by another rule which respects the privacy of individuals. For practical purposes, a homosexual can be punished only in cases he publicly declares himself as one.

2. A man dressing as a female in public.

I do know it is considered undesirable. However I don't know if it is punishable. Why would a male want to dress up as a female is beyond me.

3. Leaving Islam and becoming a Christian.

Depends. If leaving Islam takes place along with rebellion against Islamic nation, that is considered as treason. Treason is punishable with death.

4. Drawing an image of Mohamed.
5. Burning a copy of the Koran in public.

For Muslims, these are extremely offensive acts. People who do these are enemies of Islam. In Islamic countries such people would be charged with blasphemy and punished with death unless they apologize. Punishment apart, if you want to live in peace with Muslims, please avoid doing these. Most Muslims are unlikely to actually physically hurt you. However you will lose their friendships forever.

If you think punishment is justified then please for each act, tell me:

a. Who should administer the punishment?
b. What process should be used to decide guilt or innocence?
c. What specific punishment should be used?

In general, vigilante justice is discourages by Islam. Trial and punishment should take place through court.

Thanks

Harry.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
Dirty.Harry
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12/10/2012 10:58:33 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/10/2012 9:51:33 AM, baggins wrote:
At 12/10/2012 8:50:30 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
Interestingly these questions came up several days ago in a different thread recently and the usually vocal and outspoken Muslims among us have gone strangely silent on ths, almost as if they are afraid to answer honestly

So please any Muslim who is not afraid to be honest with me:

The reason most Muslims are silent is, these issues distract people from issues which are more important. Being silent is not same as being dishonest. For example, homosexuality is considered wrong by most Muslims. However it does not mean that it is the most important issue in the world for them or that they will murder any and all homosexuals as soon as possible.

As far as Muslims are concerned there are two major and urgent problem in the world today...

1. There is increasing lack of religiousness in the world today. Religion and morality are becoming increasingly distant from day to day working of the world. People are giving too much emphasis to success and failure in this world forgetting that the hereafter is better and more enduring.

2. Violence is increasing all over the world. The victims are often (but not always) Muslims. In several cases the perpetrators are also Muslims.

Compared to these issues, the issues you have listed are minor. The major emphasis of Muslims is to explain the basics of our religion to all the world and to show how Islam can provide a solution to the problems facing the world today.

On other hand, I think it is essential that we do provide the perspective of Muslims on the issues you have listed. However please note that some Muslims may disagree with my opinion.

Do you - as a devoted Muslim - believe a person should be punished for:

1. Homosexual behavior.

As far as I understand, homosexuality is punishable. Muslims are divided as to whether the punishment should be flogging or death. However this rule is tempered by another rule which respects the privacy of individuals. For practical purposes, a homosexual can be punished only in cases he publicly declares himself as one.

2. A man dressing as a female in public.

I do know it is considered undesirable. However I don't know if it is punishable. Why would a male want to dress up as a female is beyond me.

3. Leaving Islam and becoming a Christian.

Depends. If leaving Islam takes place along with rebellion against Islamic nation, that is considered as treason. Treason is punishable with death.

4. Drawing an image of Mohamed.
5. Burning a copy of the Koran in public.

For Muslims, these are extremely offensive acts. People who do these are enemies of Islam. In Islamic countries such people would be charged with blasphemy and punished with death unless they apologize. Punishment apart, if you want to live in peace with Muslims, please avoid doing these. Most Muslims are unlikely to actually physically hurt you. However you will lose their friendships forever.

Thank you for answering and I want to respond only to the above remarks. I am well aware that Muslims object to these two acts and I therefore ask why should I support the growth of Islam or the mass immigration of Muslims to my own country, cities and towns if there is a threat of extreme and irrational violence over what we consider to be freedom of expression?

There are numerous examples of this being done in non-Muslim countries followed by violence from Muslims - surely an increasing number of Muslims will lead to an increasing risk and degree of violence when Muslims feel they are justified by a perceived insult? Look at the Dutch cartoon issue or Salman Rushdie - or the recent protests all over the world (even non-Muslim countries) over the film Innocence Of Muslims - Islam is clearly a very real threat when it openly reserves the right to respond with violence when a perceived insult or offensive act is carried out.

Thus Islam and by implication mass immigration from Muslim counties is conditional - you will obey our laws and customs and practices unless you feel it is right to disregard them based on (what many see as) some irrational belief that burning a book made of paper or drawing a cartoon of some long dead person from antiquity is a punishable crime.

But also these are just the most visible "offenses" a great many Muslims in British cities actively agitate and kick up a fuss all the time over lesser issues like having to handle bottles that contain alcohol, having to follow health rules that causes a woman's forearms to be uncovered or working during prayer time or bathing in a public swimming pools where non-Muslims are bathing in western swimming costumes or when non-Muslims eat at their office desks during Ramadan and Muslims are "offended".

Every one of these is real, there are real examples all over the country of this and more on a scale that Americans simply won't believe. Many Muslims will object to me saying these things because they know I am telling the truth and they don't want non-Muslims to know until its too late.

This is why I say that Islam is incompatible with the culture, values and traditions of the UK, EU and US - because it is - incompatible and that has to be understood by non-Muslims; Muslims won't reveal this reality so non-Muslims like me must.

If you think punishment is justified then please for each act, tell me:

a. Who should administer the punishment?
b. What process should be used to decide guilt or innocence?
c. What specific punishment should be used?

In general, vigilante justice is discourages by Islam. Trial and punishment should take place through court.

Thanks

Harry.
Dirty.Harry
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12/10/2012 11:06:09 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/10/2012 9:51:33 AM, baggins wrote:

2. A man dressing as a female in public.

I do know it is considered undesirable. However I don't know if it is punishable. Why would a male want to dress up as a female is beyond me.

Well this is a little surprising because you are in India and India has a long history of Hijras and many of these people consider themselves Muslim - in India that is; they dress openly as females.

Harry.
baggins
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12/10/2012 11:37:38 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
4. Drawing an image of Mohamed.
5. Burning a copy of the Koran in public.

For Muslims, these are extremely offensive acts. People who do these are enemies of Islam. In Islamic countries such people would be charged with blasphemy and punished with death unless they apologize. Punishment apart, if you want to live in peace with Muslims, please avoid doing these. Most Muslims are unlikely to actually physically hurt you. However you will lose their friendships forever.

Thank you for answering and I want to respond only to the above remarks. I am well aware that Muslims object to these two acts and I therefore ask why should I support the growth of Islam or the mass immigration of Muslims to my own country, cities and towns if there is a threat of extreme and irrational violence over what we consider to be freedom of expression?

First of all if your country grants you unconditional freedom of speech, it does not mean you have a duty to offend others. In case you do offend others, you will lose friends at the least. Second problem is that your country is extremely inconsistent with regard to freedom of speech. Internationally you are allied to powers who rule by curbing political opinions of their citizens with violence. Even historically, the conduct of UK in colonialism is atrociously shameful for which your government has never apologized. So when you suddenly remember free speech in defense of anti-Islamic perverts, no one takes you seriously.

I am not an expert on social situation in Britain. However I guess that most people who have migrated there have done so for the sake of jobs and would be concerned most about economic progress.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
baggins
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12/10/2012 11:40:04 AM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/10/2012 11:06:09 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 12/10/2012 9:51:33 AM, baggins wrote:

2. A man dressing as a female in public.

I do know it is considered undesirable. However I don't know if it is punishable. Why would a male want to dress up as a female is beyond me.

Well this is a little surprising because you are in India and India has a long history of Hijras and many of these people consider themselves Muslim - in India that is; they dress openly as females.

Harry.

'Hijra' is a term used to refer to people who are biologically between male and female. It is quite likely that many of them consider themselves to be Muslim. However I don't really know much about their lives.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
Dirty.Harry
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12/10/2012 12:30:45 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/10/2012 11:37:38 AM, baggins wrote:
4. Drawing an image of Mohamed.
5. Burning a copy of the Koran in public.

For Muslims, these are extremely offensive acts. People who do these are enemies of Islam. In Islamic countries such people would be charged with blasphemy and punished with death unless they apologize. Punishment apart, if you want to live in peace with Muslims, please avoid doing these. Most Muslims are unlikely to actually physically hurt you. However you will lose their friendships forever.

Thank you for answering and I want to respond only to the above remarks. I am well aware that Muslims object to these two acts and I therefore ask why should I support the growth of Islam or the mass immigration of Muslims to my own country, cities and towns if there is a threat of extreme and irrational violence over what we consider to be freedom of expression?

First of all if your country grants you unconditional freedom of speech, it does not mean you have a duty to offend others. In case you do offend others, you will lose friends at the least. Second problem is that your country is extremely inconsistent with regard to freedom of speech. Internationally you are allied to powers who rule by curbing political opinions of their citizens with violence. Even historically, the conduct of UK in colonialism is atrociously shameful for which your government has never apologized. So when you suddenly remember free speech in defense of anti-Islamic perverts, no one takes you seriously.

I agree with what you say about Britain its geopolitical activities and its colonial crimes; but your remarks do not serve as an answer to my question which was why I should support the growth of Islam or immigration of Muslims given the propensity toward violence or agitation over themes that are immaterial to us in Britain - burning paper or drawing cartoons.

Furthermore you say "it does not mean you have a duty to offend others" and I never said I had any duty but have a freedom which I refuse to give up in my own land. The fact is that such acts offend ONLY Muslims nobody else will take to the streets, endorse fatwas, riot, threaten with death etc over burning a book or drawing a cartoon - only the Muslim mobs.

My position is very simple I suggest we do not allow the mass migration of people into our country, cities or towns who we know in advance will advocate violence over things that they deem offensive yet we consider a fundamental right - inside our own sovereign country.

My experience of Islam in Britain is that there is a very very long list of things that "offend" Muslims yet historically have been unremarkable within our own culture and so there is a fundamental and deep incompatibility that cannot be reconciled.

Do you not see? it is the Muslim who is offensive here - the Muslim immigrant - guest - offends the non-Muslim host country when they insist (with a threat of violence or calamity) that we forgo our existing rights in our own country and instead respect the demands of the Muslim.

I am not an expert on social situation in Britain. However I guess that most people who have migrated there have done so for the sake of jobs and would be concerned most about economic progress.

Perhaps - I can discuss that if you want - but my core focus here is to show that Islam and the mass inward migration of millions of Muslims is bad for the indigenous non-Muslim because the Muslim is unwilling to respect the prevailing culture of the host country despite already being aware that our culture is very different.

If the Muslim came with humility and respect and abandoned their irrational propensity to resort to mob rioting whenever we refuse to submit to their rules then I would have nothing to say, but Muslims never do that, they never tolerate, they never say "Ignore the cartoon for goodness sake, this is a non-Muslim country, we came here of our own free will and must respect their culture and views" never happens.

Harry.
Dirty.Harry
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12/10/2012 4:10:10 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
Still not a squeak from Mirza or Fatihah - perhaps they are hoping I will just go away and stop asking rude questions so that they can then resume lecturing the naive here about the joys of Islam...

Harry.
Fatihah
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12/10/2012 5:51:01 PM
Posted: 4 years ago
At 12/10/2012 8:50:30 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
Interestingly these questions came up several days ago in a different thread recently and the usually vocal and outspoken Muslims amongst us have gone strangely silent on ths, almost as if they are afraid to answer honestly

So please any Muslim who is not afraid to be honest with me:

Do you - as a devoted Muslim - believe a person should be punished for:

1. Homosexual behavior.
2. A man dressing as a female in public.
3. Leaving Islam and becoming a Christian.
4. Drawing an image of Mohamed.
5. Burning a copy of the Koran in public.

If you think punishment is justified then please for each act, tell me:

a. Who should administer the punishment?
b. What process should be used to decide guilt or innocence?
c. What specific punishment should be used?

Thanks

Harry.

Response: I don't answer several quesions at once, for it is time consuming to do so. If you wish for me to answer, then you can ask one at a time.
Dirty.Harry
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12/11/2012 7:47:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Do you - as a devoted Muslim - believe a person should be punished for Homosexual behavior, if so how and by whom?

Harry.
Dirty.Harry
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12/11/2012 7:48:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Do you - as a devoted Muslim - believe a person should be punished for a man dressing as a female in public, if so how and by whom?

Harry.
Dirty.Harry
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12/11/2012 7:48:49 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Do you - as a devoted Muslim - believe a person should be punished for Leaving Islam and becoming a Christian, if so how and by whom?

Harry.
Dirty.Harry
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12/11/2012 7:49:32 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Do you - as a devoted Muslim - believe a person should be punished for drawing an image of Mohamed, if so how and by whom.

Harry.
Dirty.Harry
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12/11/2012 7:50:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Do you - as a devoted Muslim - believe a person should be punished for burning a copy of the Koran in public, if so how and by whom?

Harry.
Dirty.Harry
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12/11/2012 7:50:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/10/2012 5:51:01 PM, Fatihah wrote:
Response: I don't answer several quesions at once, for it is time consuming to do so. If you wish for me to answer, then you can ask one at a time.

See above.

Harry.
Dirty.Harry
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12/11/2012 8:04:04 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
What's happened Mirza? cat got your tongue lad? or are you frightened that by answering these kinds of questions you will be forced to reveal your true colors and the true malevolent nature of Islam.

Harry.
Mirza
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12/11/2012 8:48:53 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Mr. Ma'am, You have been given a good offer to ponder at the answers given to you. There's not much benefit in walking in circles with you. All you're going to cry is, "Oh, alright I still believe what I said. Muslims make England bad!!!"

And don't expect me to watch your threads 24/7 Ma'am. Especially when they're virtually identical.
Dirty.Harry
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12/11/2012 1:04:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/11/2012 8:48:53 AM, Mirza wrote:
Mr. Ma'am, You have been given a good offer to ponder at the answers given to you. There's not much benefit in walking in circles with you. All you're going to cry is, "Oh, alright I still believe what I said. Muslims make England bad!!!"

And don't expect me to watch your threads 24/7 Ma'am. Especially when they're virtually identical.

No surprise there then - I knew you'd evade answering uncomfortable questions.

Harry.
Fatihah
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12/11/2012 9:33:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/11/2012 7:47:34 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
Do you - as a devoted Muslim - believe a person should be punished for Homosexual behavior, if so how and by whom?

Harry.

Response: I debated homosexuality wih someone on this forum before. So you can see my debate to know my full view of homosexuality. I also answered this question already as well in another thread to you. Nonetheless, here it is again:

Homosexuality is wrong and the punishment is 100 lashes. This leads the non-muslim to say that islam is still unjust and violent because 100 lashes is unjust for someone just because they commit adultery or fornication or n homosexuality. Yet such logic is the actual injustice. Why? For every person on the planet can agree that using a person is wrong. Furthermore, the more meaningful or intimate something is to a person, the more hurtful and devistating a person feels if they are used for it. For example, being used for 5 dollars won't feel so hurtful as being used for all of your income.

This being said, a person can also understand that when a person is raped or molested, it is by far one of the worst, if not the worst, most devistating and dramatizing feelings a person can feel if they are a victim. Why? Because the person was used sexually and there is nothing more intimate and personal to a person then their private parts and as demonstrated above, the more intimate or meaningful something is to a person, the more hurtful and devistating they will feel if used for it. This is why rape and molestation is the most severe feeling of being dramatized because it involves being used for the most intimate and personal interaction, and that is a person's own private parts and sex.

Islam recognizes this and seeks to put an end to such disgraceful behavior by severely punishing those who have sex out of lust to please their own desires, and not out of love through proper marriage to please their spouse. This is why adultery and fornication and homosexuality is the biggest of sins and is severely condemned and those who do it are severely punished. For the act of using someone sexually for one's own pleasure is by far a degrading and trifling act that should be severely condemned.

The punishment should be enforced by the government.
1Devilsadvocate
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12/11/2012 9:51:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/11/2012 9:33:34 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/11/2012 7:47:34 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
Do you - as a devoted Muslim - believe a person should be punished for Homosexual behavior, if so how and by whom?

Harry.

Response: I debated homosexuality wih someone on this forum before. So you can see my debate to know my full view of homosexuality. I also answered this question already as well in another thread to you. Nonetheless, here it is again:

Homosexuality is wrong and the punishment is 100 lashes. This leads the non-muslim to say that islam is still unjust and violent because 100 lashes is unjust for someone just because they commit adultery or fornication or n homosexuality. Yet such logic is the actual injustice. Why? For every person on the planet can agree that using a person is wrong. Furthermore, the more meaningful or intimate something is to a person, the more hurtful and devistating a person feels if they are used for it. For example, being used for 5 dollars won't feel so hurtful as being used for all of your income.

This being said, a person can also understand that when a person is raped or molested, it is by far one of the worst, if not the worst, most devistating and dramatizing feelings a person can feel if they are a victim. Why? Because the person was used sexually and there is nothing more intimate and personal to a person then their private parts and as demonstrated above, the more intimate or meaningful something is to a person, the more hurtful and devistating they will feel if used for it. This is why rape and molestation is the most severe feeling of being dramatized because it involves being used for the most intimate and personal interaction, and that is a person's own private parts and sex.

Islam recognizes this and seeks to put an end to such disgraceful behavior by severely punishing those who have sex out of lust to please their own desires, and not out of love through proper marriage to please their spouse. This is why adultery and fornication and homosexuality is the biggest of sins and is severely condemned and those who do it are severely punished. For the act of using someone sexually for one's own pleasure is by far a degrading and trifling act that should be severely condemned.

The punishment should be enforced by the government.

Wow, that's a Strawman if I ever saw one.
The question was about Homosexuality not rape.
Rape is without consent. Homosexuality is not rape.
I cannot write in English, because of the treacherous spelling. When I am reading, I only hear it and am unable to remember what the written word looks like."
"Albert Einstein

http://www.twainquotes.com... , http://thewritecorner.wordpress.com... , http://www.onlinecollegecourses.com...
Dirty.Harry
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12/12/2012 12:22:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/11/2012 9:33:34 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/11/2012 7:47:34 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
Do you - as a devoted Muslim - believe a person should be punished for Homosexual behavior, if so how and by whom?

Harry.

Response: I debated homosexuality wih someone on this forum before. So you can see my debate to know my full view of homosexuality. I also answered this question already as well in another thread to you. Nonetheless, here it is again:

Homosexuality is wrong and the punishment is 100 lashes.
No it isn't - not in the UK, EU or US.

This leads the non-muslim to say that islam is still unjust and violent because 100 lashes is unjust for someone just because they commit adultery or fornication or n homosexuality.

No - this leads me to say that Islam is incompatible with western culture.

Yet such logic is the actual injustice. Why? For every person on the planet can agree that using a person is wrong. Furthermore, the more meaningful or intimate something is to a person, the more hurtful and deviating a person feels if they are used for it. For example, being used for 5 dollars won't feel so hurtful as being used for all of your income.

Why have you changed the subject?

This being said, a person can also understand that when a person is raped or molested, it is by far one of the worst, if not the worst, most devastating and dramatizing feelings a person can feel if they are a victim. Why? Because the person was used sexually and there is nothing more intimate and personal to a person then their private parts and as demonstrated above, the more intimate or meaningful something is to a person, the more hurtful and devastating they will feel if used for it. This is why rape and molestation is the most severe feeling of being dramatized because it involves being used for the most intimate and personal interaction, and that is a person's own private parts and sex.

So you dissaprove of rape and molestation - but not with "consenting" 9 year olds I hear?

Islam recognizes this and seeks to put an end to such disgraceful behavior by severely punishing those who have sex out of lust to please their own desires, and not out of love through proper marriage to please their spouse.

So again Islam is incompatible with western culture and social norms because we do not advocate "severe punishment" for consenting adults having sex without being married.

This is why adultery and fornication and homosexuality is the biggest of sins and is severely condemned and those who do it are severely punished. For the act of using someone sexually for one's own pleasure is by far a degrading and trifling act that should be severely condemned.

But we - in the west - don't see things that way - just as you think its fine to take a nine year old wife or take several wives or whip a person for being gay - the two cultures are as incompatible with one another as they could possibly be.

The punishment should be enforced by the government.
But it never will unless we have a government that bases law upon Islam - would you support that? would you support the installation of an Islamic government in the USA?

Instead why not emigrate to Saudi Arabia or Yemen or Sudan or Indonesia - then you can do all these things.

Harry.
Dirty.Harry
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12/12/2012 12:24:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/11/2012 9:51:42 PM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
At 12/11/2012 9:33:34 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/11/2012 7:47:34 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
Do you - as a devoted Muslim - believe a person should be punished for Homosexual behavior, if so how and by whom?

Harry.

Response: I debated homosexuality wih someone on this forum before. So you can see my debate to know my full view of homosexuality. I also answered this question already as well in another thread to you. Nonetheless, here it is again:

Homosexuality is wrong and the punishment is 100 lashes. This leads the non-muslim to say that islam is still unjust and violent because 100 lashes is unjust for someone just because they commit adultery or fornication or n homosexuality. Yet such logic is the actual injustice. Why? For every person on the planet can agree that using a person is wrong. Furthermore, the more meaningful or intimate something is to a person, the more hurtful and devistating a person feels if they are used for it. For example, being used for 5 dollars won't feel so hurtful as being used for all of your income.

This being said, a person can also understand that when a person is raped or molested, it is by far one of the worst, if not the worst, most devistating and dramatizing feelings a person can feel if they are a victim. Why? Because the person was used sexually and there is nothing more intimate and personal to a person then their private parts and as demonstrated above, the more intimate or meaningful something is to a person, the more hurtful and devistating they will feel if used for it. This is why rape and molestation is the most severe feeling of being dramatized because it involves being used for the most intimate and personal interaction, and that is a person's own private parts and sex.

Islam recognizes this and seeks to put an end to such disgraceful behavior by severely punishing those who have sex out of lust to please their own desires, and not out of love through proper marriage to please their spouse. This is why adultery and fornication and homosexuality is the biggest of sins and is severely condemned and those who do it are severely punished. For the act of using someone sexually for one's own pleasure is by far a degrading and trifling act that should be severely condemned.

The punishment should be enforced by the government.

Wow, that's a Strawman if I ever saw one.
The question was about Homosexuality not rape.
Rape is without consent. Homosexuality is not rape.

Indeed and I'm simply dying for him or mirza to answer the Koran burning or cartoon questions....

Harry.
1Devilsadvocate
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12/12/2012 12:44:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/12/2012 12:24:05 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 12/11/2012 9:51:42 PM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
At 12/11/2012 9:33:34 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/11/2012 7:47:34 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
Do you - as a devoted Muslim - believe a person should be punished for Homosexual behavior, if so how and by whom?

Harry.

Response: I debated homosexuality wih someone on this forum before. So you can see my debate to know my full view of homosexuality. I also answered this question already as well in another thread to you. Nonetheless, here it is again:

Homosexuality is wrong and the punishment is 100 lashes. This leads the non-muslim to say that islam is still unjust and violent because 100 lashes is unjust for someone just because they commit adultery or fornication or n homosexuality. Yet such logic is the actual injustice. Why? For every person on the planet can agree that using a person is wrong. Furthermore, the more meaningful or intimate something is to a person, the more hurtful and devistating a person feels if they are used for it. For example, being used for 5 dollars won't feel so hurtful as being used for all of your income.

This being said, a person can also understand that when a person is raped or molested, it is by far one of the worst, if not the worst, most devistating and dramatizing feelings a person can feel if they are a victim. Why? Because the person was used sexually and there is nothing more intimate and personal to a person then their private parts and as demonstrated above, the more intimate or meaningful something is to a person, the more hurtful and devistating they will feel if used for it. This is why rape and molestation is the most severe feeling of being dramatized because it involves being used for the most intimate and personal interaction, and that is a person's own private parts and sex.

Islam recognizes this and seeks to put an end to such disgraceful behavior by severely punishing those who have sex out of lust to please their own desires, and not out of love through proper marriage to please their spouse. This is why adultery and fornication and homosexuality is the biggest of sins and is severely condemned and those who do it are severely punished. For the act of using someone sexually for one's own pleasure is by far a degrading and trifling act that should be severely condemned.

The punishment should be enforced by the government.

Wow, that's a Strawman if I ever saw one.
The question was about Homosexuality not rape.
Rape is without consent. Homosexuality is not rape.

Indeed and I'm simply dying for him or mirza to answer the Koran burning or cartoon questions....

Harry.

BTW it's a her, not a him.
& why do you ask her if she would support / want Sharia law?
What do you expect, she's Muslim of course she wouldn't mind having Sharia law,
& in fact would support it. If your born & grow up with it, it doesn't seem bad/harsh.
I cannot write in English, because of the treacherous spelling. When I am reading, I only hear it and am unable to remember what the written word looks like."
"Albert Einstein

http://www.twainquotes.com... , http://thewritecorner.wordpress.com... , http://www.onlinecollegecourses.com...
maj
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12/12/2012 2:52:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Hello Harry,
Note that I have started to reply to your questions in my mentioned thread "What is Islam..." as following:
Because it's me who started this topic I think your questions was addressed to me and I think that why no one come to answer it.
Anyway, before answering your questions, I think there are so many points that you should know about Islam before you could grasp my answer:
First, you should know that ISLAM is not a new religion but the final culmination and fulfillment of the same basic truth that ALLAH (God) revealed through all His prophets to every people.
When you know the meaning of Islam which in general means worshiping Allah alone without attributing any equals to Him.
So you will know that Islam is the real religion of Jesus Moses Ibraham Noah etc in other words it's the real religion of all the messengers and prophets to all mankind all of them called their people to worship
"Allah" alone because He is the only one who deserves to be worshipped.

Knowing the above point, it will easy for you to know the real mission of prophet Muhammad if not I will explain it by some speeches of Muhammad himself :
Allah's Apostle said, "My similitude in comparison with the other prophets before me, is that of a man who has built a house nicely and beautifully, except for a place of one brick in a corner. The people go about it and wonder at its beauty, but say: 'Would that this brick be put in its place!' So I am that brick, and I am the last of the Prophets."
And his other Hadith:
(We, the Prophets are brothers with (the same father but) different mothers. Our religion is the same,) meaning, `we should worship Allah alone without partners while having different laws.'
This, indeed, is the straight path which the Messengers have brought and which commands worshipping Allah alone without partners and adhering to the Law of the last Messenger whom Allah sent.
And also:
Narated By Abu Huraira : Two persons, a Muslim and a Jew, quarrelled. The Muslim said, "By Him Who gave Muhammad superiority over all the people! The Jew said, "By Him Who gave Moses superiority over all the people!" At that the Muslim raised his hand and slapped the Jew on the face. The Jew went to the Prophet and informed him of what had happened between him and the Muslim. The Prophet sent for the Muslim and asked him about it. The Muslim informed him of the event. The Prophet said, "Do not give me superiority over Moses, for on the Day of Resurrection all the people will fall unconscious and I will be one of them, but I will. be the first to gain consciousness, and will see Moses standing and holding the side of the Throne (of Allah). I will not know whether (Moses) has also fallen unconscious and got up before me, or Allah has exempted him from that stroke."
(And We did not send any Messenger before you but We revealed to him (saying): "None has the right to be worshipped but I, so worship Me.') ﴿21:25﴾ Allah informed us that Nuh said to his people,
(Verily, We did send down the Tawrah, therein was guidance and light, by which the Prophets, who submitted themselves to Allah's will, judged for the Jews. And the rabbis and the priests ﴿did also﴾.) ﴿5:44﴾, and,
Allah asked Muhammad to say:
[003:084] Say (O Muhammad [sal-All"hu 'alayhi wa sallam]): "We believe in All"h and in what has been sent down to us, and what was sent down to Ibr"h"m (Abraham), Ism"'"l (Ishmael), Ish"q (Isaac), Ya'q"b (Jacob) and Al-Asb"t [the offspring of the twelve sons of Ya'q"b (Jacob)] and what was given to M"s" (Moses), 'خs" (Jesus) and the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between one another among them and to Him (All"h) we have submitted (in Isl"m)."
Say, [O believers], "We have believed in Allah and what has been revealed to us and what has been revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants and what was given to Moses and Jesus and what was given to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him." (136)

So they respond with obedience saying what stated in the Quran:
The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and [so have] the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers, [saying], "We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. [We seek] Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the [final] destination." (285)
And look what Allah said about Ibraham:
[016:120] Verily, Ibr"h"m (Abraham) was an Ummah (a leader having all the good righteous qualities, or a nation), obedient to All"h, Han"f (i.e. to worship none but All"h), and he was not one of those who were Al-Mushrik"n (polytheists, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of All"h, and those who joined partners with All"h).
[016:121] (He was) thankful for His (All"h's) Favours. He (All"h) chose him (as an intimate friend) and guided him to a Straight Path (Isl"mic Monotheism " neither Judaism nor Christianity).
[016:122] And We gave him good in this world, and in the Hereafter he shall be of the righteous.
And Allah asked Muhammad to follow the steps of Ibrahim.
[016:123] Then, We have sent the Revelation to you (O Muhammad [sal-All"hu 'alayhi wa sallam] saying): "Follow the religion of Ibr"h"m (Abraham) Han"f (Isl"mic Monotheism " to worship none but All"h) and he was not of the Mushrik"n (polytheists, idolaters, disbelievers).
Now I suppose that you understand what Islam is all about and Muslims are.
That in reality there"s only one religion revealed from the same source to
So you will find in all the divine scriptures the teachings allow us all good and lawful things, and prohibits us unlawful and evil things, and required people to be very keen to do good deeds and avoid evil deeds.
Hence, I come to answer your questions in a simple way,
1.Homosexual behavior.
It"s forbidden in Islam (again repeat that Islam means the religion of all the prophets) because there"s no advantages of this bad behavior.
2.A man dressing as a female in public.
The same answer It"s forbidden in Islam (again repeat that Islam means the religion of all the prophets) because there"s no advantages of this bad behavior. And also not allowed for a woman dressing as a male in public.
To be continued "..
maj
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12/12/2012 4:01:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/11/2012 7:49:32 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
Do you - as a devoted Muslim - believe a person should be punished for drawing an image of Mohamed, if so how and by whom.

Harry.
If you read my foreword in last post about the wide meaning of Islam, you will realize then that when you accept Islam"s teachings you in reality accept all the
Teachings of other previous prophets (Moses, Jesus, Ibrahim etc.) and so when
Reject Islam"s teachings you in fact reject all other real teachings because
All the teachings are from the same source (The creator of this universe).
Now dare to say that you will find any text in the authentic teachings of the
Great prophets that allowed such bad things you mentioned in your questions:
For instant regarding "4. Drawing an image of Mohamed."
In Islam it"s forbidden because Allah the Exalted forbids scoffing at people not only scoffing at Mohammad understand this point (forbids scoffing at all people Muslims and disbelivers (Non-Muslims)), which implies humiliating and belittling them. In the Hadith, it is recorded that the Messenger of Allah said,
(Arrogance is refusing the truth and belittling people.) And in another Version (And despising people) It is forbidden to scoff at and belittle people, for the injured party could be more honored and dearer to Allah the Exalted than those who ridicule and belittle them. This is why Allah the Exalted said,
(O you who believe! Let not a group scoff at another group, it may be that the latter are better than the former. Nor let (some) women scoff at other women, it may be that the latter are better than the former.) thus, stating this prohibition for men and then women. The statement of Allah the Exalted,
(Nor defame yourselves,) forbids defaming each other. He among men who is a slanderer, and a backbiter, is cursed and condemned as Allah states
(Woe to every Humazah, Lumazah)(104:1) Hamz is defamation by action, while Lamz is by words.
Now let me say That I"m sure that those who are refusing the truth and belittling prophets and Mohammad in the name of defending and fighting
For Jesus or Moses, in the hereafter Jesus peace be upon Him is the first
To exclude those people and become their first Enemy.

So I advice you as you are alive to fear Allaah and remember the meaning of what Allaah Said:
(O mankind! Have Taqwa (Fear)of your Lord! Verily, the earthquake of the Hour is a terrible thing. The Day you shall see it, every nursing mother will forget her nursling, and every pregnant one will drop her load, and you shall see mankind as in a drunken state, yet they will not be drunken, but Allah's torment is severe.)
And in the meanings of Quran Allaah warns from time to time the disbelievers and states that He does not accept the disbelievers to ransom themselves:
(Verily, those who disbelieved, and died while they were disbelievers, the (whole) earth full of gold will not be accepted from anyone of them even if they offered it as a ransom) (3:91)
(Verily, those who disbelieve, if they had all that is in the earth, and as much again therewith to ransom themselves from the torment on the Day of Resurrection, it would never be accepted of them, and theirs would be a painful torment) (5:36)
(And even if he offers every ransom, it will not be accepted from him) (6:70) and,
(So this Day no ransom shall be taken from you (hypocrites), nor of those who disbelieved. Your abode is the Fire. That is your Mawla (friend ـ proper place)) (57:15).
My best wishes
Fatihah
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12/13/2012 4:52:43 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/11/2012 9:51:42 PM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:


The punishment should be enforced by the government.

Wow, that's a Strawman if I ever saw one.
The question was about Homosexuality not rape.
Rape is without consent. Homosexuality is not rape.

Response: Then you clearly don't know what a strawman is. For the analogy was the act of lust, not consent. No one stated that homosexuality was rape. But we expect such flawed resonses when an argument can't be refuted.
Fatihah
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12/13/2012 5:03:24 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/12/2012 12:22:37 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 12/11/2012 9:33:34 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/11/2012 7:47:34 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
Do you - as a devoted Muslim - believe a person should be punished for Homosexual behavior, if so how and by whom?

Harry.

Response: I debated homosexuality wih someone on this forum before. So you can see my debate to know my full view of homosexuality. I also answered this question already as well in another thread to you. Nonetheless, here it is again:

Homosexuality is wrong and the punishment is 100 lashes.
No it isn't - not in the UK, EU or US.

Response: The Uk, EU, or the US, is not Islam. Debunked as usual.

This leads the non-muslim to say that islam is still unjust and violent because 100 lashes is unjust for someone just because they commit adultery or fornication or n homosexuality.

No - this leads me to say that Islam is incompatible with western culture.

Response: And rightfully so since western culture condones such a disgraceful and degrading behavior.

Yet such logic is the actual injustice. Why? For every person on the planet can agree that using a person is wrong. Furthermore, the more meaningful or intimate something is to a person, the more hurtful and deviating a person feels if they are used for it. For example, being used for 5 dollars won't feel so hurtful as being used for all of your income.

Why have you changed the subject?

Response: It's not, supported by you inability to prove so.

This being said, a person can also understand that when a person is raped or molested, it is by far one of the worst, if not the worst, most devastating and dramatizing feelings a person can feel if they are a victim. Why? Because the person was used sexually and there is nothing more intimate and personal to a person then their private parts and as demonstrated above, the more intimate or meaningful something is to a person, the more hurtful and devastating they will feel if used for it. This is why rape and molestation is the most severe feeling of being dramatized because it involves being used for the most intimate and personal interaction, and that is a person's own private parts and sex.

So you dissaprove of rape and molestation - but not with "consenting" 9 year olds I hear?

There is no harm in consensual sex in marriage with someone who is mature and has reached puberty, supported by your inability to show otherwise. Thus your own argument favors consesnual sex with a 9 year old under such circumstances.

Islam recognizes this and seeks to put an end to such disgraceful behavior by severely punishing those who have sex out of lust to please their own desires, and not out of love through proper marriage to please their spouse.

So again Islam is incompatible with western culture and social norms because we do not advocate "severe punishment" for consenting adults having sex without being married.

Response: And once again, rightfully so.

This is why adultery and fornication and homosexuality is the biggest of sins and is severely condemned and those who do it are severely punished. For the act of using someone sexually for one's own pleasure is by far a degrading and trifling act that should be severely condemned.

But we - in the west - don't see things that way - just as you think its fine to take a nine year old wife or take several wives or whip a person for being gay - the two cultures are as incompatible with one another as they could possibly be.

The punishment should be enforced by the government.
But it never will unless we have a government that bases law upon Islam - would you support that? would you support the installation of an Islamic government in the USA?

Instead why not emigrate to Saudi Arabia or Yemen or Sudan or Indonesia - then you can do all these things.

Harry.

Response: This is not your land or your world. Muslims move where they please and practice islam whereever they may be. If you don't like it, then that's your problem.