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Jesus and other faces in the crowd...

Paradox_7
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12/12/2012 8:38:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I just saw something in "What defines a Christian?", that made me think of starting this thread.

I'd like to hear the similarities between Christs teachings with other philosophers, teachers, holy-men, prophets, etc.

Some people mention that Christ may have adopted the philosophy of others, or that he was a copy cat; either way, can anyone provide a few?
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
royalpaladin
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12/12/2012 8:43:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Well, there are some sources that indicate that Jesus spent his childhood in a Buddhist monastery in Kashmir. It makes sense, given that many of his ideas are similar to those advanced in Jesus.

The other theories focus on how Christianity stole things from pagan religions, specifically from the myth of Osiris and the cult of Mithras.
philochristos
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12/12/2012 8:57:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Here's a book by Marcus Borg called Jesus and Buddha: The Parallel Sayings.

http://www.amazon.com...

Some of these are a bit of an interpretational stretch, but there they are anyway.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Paradox_7
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12/12/2012 8:59:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/12/2012 8:43:22 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
Well, there are some sources that indicate that Jesus spent his childhood in a Buddhist monastery in Kashmir. It makes sense, given that many of his ideas are similar to those advanced in Jesus.

This is a first that i've ever heard. Do you have any sources for this?

The other theories focus on how Christianity stole things from pagan religions, specifically from the myth of Osiris and the cult of Mithras.

I've heard this claim destroyed to the point of embarassment.. But, if you think it holds some weight, please exound.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Paradox_7
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12/12/2012 9:00:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/12/2012 8:57:15 PM, philochristos wrote:
Here's a book by Marcus Borg called Jesus and Buddha: The Parallel Sayings.

http://www.amazon.com...

Some of these are a bit of an interpretational stretch, but there they are anyway.


Thanks, philo, I'll check it out.. but I was sort of hoping for a discussion on the matter.

have you heard any particular similarites that you'd like to set straight or bring forward?
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
philochristos
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12/12/2012 9:02:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/12/2012 9:00:14 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
have you heard any particular similarites that you'd like to set straight or bring forward?

I've heard a bunch of them, but I can't think of anything off the top of my head right now. I know there was one about how Jesus said to do to others what you would have them do to you, and I think it was attributed to Buddha that you should not do to other what you would not want done to you.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
philochristos
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12/12/2012 9:04:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Also, Jesus once said something like, "All that the Father gives to me will come to me," and I'm pretty sure John Calvin said something really similar. ;-)
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
twocupcakes
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12/12/2012 9:15:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Jesus helps only those who worship him. Kim-Jong-il (Dictator of North Korea) won't help people unless they worship him. The difference is Kim-Jong-il sends people who reject him to life imprisonment, while Jesus sends people to eternal torture.

So, Jesus is kinda is like a more strict Kim-Jong-il.
1Devilsadvocate
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12/12/2012 9:16:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I read/wrote this once:

I think one of the most powerful arguments is not philosophical, but archaeological/historical. I'm referring to the cult of Mithras. It shares some very obvious similarities with Christianity, such as

Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25th.
He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
He had 12 companions or disciples.
He performed miracles.
He was buried in a tomb.
After three days he rose again.
His resurrection was celebrated every year.
Mithra was called "the Good Shepherd."
He was considered "the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah."
He was identified with both the Lion and the Lamb.
His sacred day was Sunday, "the Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
Mithra had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter, at which time he was resurrected.
His religion had a Eucharist or "Lord's Supper."

Source: http://www.sanfords.net......

The cult of Mithras was one of the most popular pagan religions, and this really shows how much they borrowed to make the transition to another religion. If they borrowed it, Jesus must not have been divine.

several cultures have some stories similar to Biblical accounts (such as a creation story and a global flood), but these accounts lend credibility to the probability that an event like that happened. So all that needs to be asked is which account is the correct one, or at least the closest one to what probably actually happened. I believe there are many good reasons to suppose the Biblical accounts to be the true ones.

Look at the Egyptian God Horus (son of Ra, the supreme God), who undoubtedly was written of before Jesus (son of God)...

-Both were born of a virgin (on Dec 25th, herr herr) and visited by 3 Kings.
-Both were baptized by a "Baptist" who was beheaded.
-Both started to preach at the age of 30 and had 12 disciples.
-Both walked on water and performed other miracles.
-Both were crucified, buried and then resurrected.
I cannot write in English, because of the treacherous spelling. When I am reading, I only hear it and am unable to remember what the written word looks like."
"Albert Einstein

http://www.twainquotes.com... , http://thewritecorner.wordpress.com... , http://www.onlinecollegecourses.com...
1Devilsadvocate
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12/12/2012 9:17:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/12/2012 9:16:26 PM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
I read/wrote this once:

I think one of the most powerful arguments is not philosophical, but archaeological/historical. I'm referring to the cult of Mithras. It shares some very obvious similarities with Christianity, such as

Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25th.
He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
He had 12 companions or disciples.
He performed miracles.
He was buried in a tomb.
After three days he rose again.
His resurrection was celebrated every year.
Mithra was called "the Good Shepherd."
He was considered "the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah."
He was identified with both the Lion and the Lamb.
His sacred day was Sunday, "the Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
Mithra had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter, at which time he was resurrected.
His religion had a Eucharist or "Lord's Supper."

Source: http://www.sanfords.net......

The cult of Mithras was one of the most popular pagan religions, and this really shows how much they borrowed to make the transition to another religion. If they borrowed it, Jesus must not have been divine.


several cultures have some stories similar to Biblical accounts (such as a creation story and a global flood), but these accounts lend credibility to the probability that an event like that happened. So all that needs to be asked is which account is the correct one, or at least the closest one to what probably actually happened. I believe there are many good reasons to suppose the Biblical accounts to be the true ones.


Look at the Egyptian God Horus (son of Ra, the supreme God), who undoubtedly was written of before Jesus (son of God)...

-Both were born of a virgin (on Dec 25th, herr herr) and visited by 3 Kings.
-Both were baptized by a "Baptist" who was beheaded.
-Both started to preach at the age of 30 and had 12 disciples.
-Both walked on water and performed other miracles.
-Both were crucified, buried and then resurrected.

On 2nd thought maybe that's not what you meant.
I cannot write in English, because of the treacherous spelling. When I am reading, I only hear it and am unable to remember what the written word looks like."
"Albert Einstein

http://www.twainquotes.com... , http://thewritecorner.wordpress.com... , http://www.onlinecollegecourses.com...
1Devilsadvocate
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12/12/2012 9:26:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/12/2012 9:02:39 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/12/2012 9:00:14 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
have you heard any particular similarites that you'd like to set straight or bring forward?

I've heard a bunch of them, but I can't think of anything off the top of my head right now. I know there was one about how Jesus said to do to others what you would have them do to you, and I think it was attributed to Buddha that you should not do to other what you would not want done to you.

It's more likely that it came from his :ewish back round.

You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against your kinsfolk. Love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD.
"Leviticus 19:18

The Sage Hillel (c.110 BCE, died 10 CE[59]), formulated a negative form of the golden rule. When asked to sum up the entire Torah concisely, he answered:[61]
That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn it.
"Talmud, Shabbat 31a, the "Great Principle"
On the verse, "Love your fellow as yourself," the classic commentator Rashi quotes from Torat Kohanim, an early Midrashic text regarding the famous dictum of Rabbi Akiva: "Love your fellow as yourself " Rabbi Akiva says this is a great principle of the Torah."[62]
Israel's postal service quoted from the previous Leviticus verse when it commemorated the Universal Declaration of Human Rights on a 1958 postage stamp.[63]

http://en.wikipedia.org...
I cannot write in English, because of the treacherous spelling. When I am reading, I only hear it and am unable to remember what the written word looks like."
"Albert Einstein

http://www.twainquotes.com... , http://thewritecorner.wordpress.com... , http://www.onlinecollegecourses.com...
THEBOMB
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12/12/2012 9:38:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/12/2012 8:38:36 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
I just saw something in "What defines a Christian?", that made me think of starting this thread.

I'd like to hear the similarities between Christs teachings with other philosophers, teachers, holy-men, prophets, etc.

Some people mention that Christ may have adopted the philosophy of others, or that he was a copy cat; either way, can anyone provide a few?

That was probably me. And I never said he was a copy cat. I do believe that he adopted many Buddhist/Hindu/Taoist teachings, but it still is a separate religion. Aspects of it are not seen in many other religions (Ex. the trinity). But, large parts can be seen in other religions. All religions through the eons have borrowed from each other, Christianity is no different.

Jesus did not teach family values, rather he told his disciples to leave their families and become ascetics and renunciates like himself. (I forget the exact passage, but I believe you should know what I am talking about). The Buddha, Krishna, and Lao Tzu told their most devote followers the exact same thing. If necessary, I can provide exact line numbers, etc.

Here's one:

Christianity teaches that the "true-self" is divine. (The true-self is who you are in front of God.) Without going to deep into spiritual psychology (it's a very interesting thing, I suggest looking into it, very important theological concept.) There are levels of who you are. On the outside is the survival personality, then there is the ego, finally there is the true self. Everything obscures the true self. Once you break through that barrier, so to speak, you become "enlightened." You become who you really are, not what the world formed you to become. (In other words, you are a perfectly balanced person.) It's hard to explain concisely, at least for me. The Baghadvad Gita (Hindu holy text), the Buddha, and Lao Tzu (founder of Taoism) taught basically the exact same thing just in different words.

Here is another:

"Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, Comes to Me." The Gospel According to John (Christian text)

"He who works for Me alone and has Me for his goal, is devoted to Me, is freed from attachment, and bears enmity towards no creature, He enters Me." The Bagavad Gita (Hindu text)

"He will go to the other shore and stand on dry land if he has realized liberation and hidden knowledge in this life." Catukka Nipata Pali (Buddhist text)

"Knowing that which does not change is enlightenment. Not knowing is blindness To be one with Tao is divine. Though you may die, you will not perish." The Tao te Ching (Taoist text) I am going to be honest, the Tao Te Ching is kinda counter-intuitive. It is a rather interesting philosophy though. (Look up philosophical Taoism for more details.)

If you look at them all, they all show that learning from the divine divine from "divine" sources is necessary for eternal life in some form. Basically, hidden knowledge is key. This directly parallels biblical teachings in which one needs to learn from god. It is much more complicated than that as there are many different conceptions of what constitutes learning from the divine. But, this is just a cursory glance.

Another Parallel:

1. "The Kingdom is not coming with signs to be observed. The Kingdom of God is within you." The Gospel of Luke

"Those who seek oneness ceaselessly find the Lord dwelling in their own hearts." The Bagavad Gita

I believe it should be fairly obvious what this means, god is within your heart (or soul however you wish to interpret it).

"The Way is empty, yet contains all. Words cannot describe it. Better that one should look for it within." (Think about it for a couple seconds) The Tao Te Ching

Taoism holds that the entire universe is connected. The Way can be explained the flow of the universe (once again, an extremely difficult concept to explain fully...) Basically, The Way is both external and internal, yet you can only know of it fully by looking internally. It's hard to grasp fully. You can see the parallels Taoism has here.

2. "When someone wants to take your shirt, let him have your coat as well. If someone forces you to go a mile with him, go with him an extra mile."
- The Gospels of Matthew, Luke and Thomas

Basically this says that people should be extra charitable.

"The greatest reward in the world is to provide for others. And there is no greater loss in the world than to accept from others without an attitude of gratefulness." The Buddha

Providing for others is very good. Accepting from others without gratitude is very bad.

"Give to the one who begs from you, and do not turn your back on one who wants to borrow from you." The Gospels of Matthew and Luke

"A disciple who seeks well-minded disciples should act without thinking when he performs acts of charity." The Dhammapada

All of these teachings basically hold the same basic tenant. Charity.

3. "And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every disease and every infirmity.
When he saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." The Gospel of Matthew

Christianity teaches that we should live as Jesus did. In other words, we should be ourselves, but we should help people.

"I give you a new commandment: Love one another as I have loved you." The Gospel of John

"Just as a mother would risk her life to protect her child, so should one cultivate a limitless heart of compassion for all beings." The Buddha

These all teach that we should love one another.

I can expand on some of these more if you would like me too. There are other parallels between religions but these are just a couple.
1Devilsadvocate
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12/12/2012 9:47:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Christian holidays:

Christmas:

http://www.simpletoremember.com...

http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Halloween:

http://en.wikipedia.org...
According to many scholars, it was originally influenced by western European harvest festivals and festivals of the dead with possible pagan roots, particularly the Celtic Samhain.[6][8][9]

Easter:

http://rcg.org...

http://www.religioustolerance.org...

http://en.wikipedia.org...

All holidays:

http://www.nvcc.edu...

http://godkind.org...
I cannot write in English, because of the treacherous spelling. When I am reading, I only hear it and am unable to remember what the written word looks like."
"Albert Einstein

http://www.twainquotes.com... , http://thewritecorner.wordpress.com... , http://www.onlinecollegecourses.com...
philochristos
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12/12/2012 10:22:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/12/2012 9:16:26 PM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25th.

Irrelevant. Jesus wasn't born on December 25th. Mithra was born of a rock. Yeah, I guess rocks are technically virgins, but really?

He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.

Too vague to be significant. Lots of people have been great traveling teachers and masters, both in real life and in fiction.

He had 12 companions or disciples.

This is not true. It comes from a picture portraying Mithra slaying a bull that is framed on both sides by six pictures on each side that look vaguely like human faces, and merely assuming that these represent 12 companios or disciples. It's pure conjecture.

He performed miracles.

Too vague since most gods and demigods perform miracles.

He was buried in a tomb.

This is made up.

After three days he rose again.

This is made up.

His resurrection was celebrated every year.

This is based on something Turtullian said:

"if my memory still serves me, Mithra there, (in the kingdom of Satan,) sets his marks on the foreheads of his soldiers; celebrates also the oblation of bread, and introduces an image of a resurrection, and before a sword wreathes a crown."

Obviously, to infer from this that Mithra was resurrected or that his resurrection was celebrated is wild speculation. Mithra was not resurrected. There's not even any record of him dying.

Mithra was called "the Good Shepherd."

No, he wasn't.

He was considered "the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah."

No he wasn't.

He was identified with both the Lion and the Lamb.

It's true that he was associated with a lion, but the lamb thing was made up.

His sacred day was Sunday, "the Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.

It's true that Sunday was a sacred day in Mithraism, but only in Roman Mithraism, which is probably the result of Mithraism borrowing from Christianity rather than the other way around. But it was never called "the Lord's Day" in Mithraism.

Mithra had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter, at which time he was resurrected.

Spring festivals are common in many cultures, so this is insignificant and irrelevant. The Christian Easter coincides with the Jewish Passover. It has nothing to do with Mithraism. And again, Mithra was not resurrected.

His religion had a Eucharist or "Lord's Supper."

It's true that having a meal together is something members of the Mithraic cult did, but it was never called a "Lord's Supper." Justin Martyr once referred to it as a "Eucharist." But these types of ritual eating are too common to be significant.

Source:

Look at the Egyptian God Horus (son of Ra, the supreme God), who undoubtedly was written of before Jesus (son of God)...

-Both were born of a virgin (on Dec 25th, herr herr) and visited by 3 Kings.

Horus was not born of a virgin. Isis had sex with his father, Osiris, after putting his dead body parts back together. Horus' birth was not visited by 3 kings, and neither was Jesus'. And neither one of them was born on December 25th either.

-Both were baptized by a "Baptist" who was beheaded.

This is speculative. Anup, who supposedly "baptized" Horus, was sometimes depicted as a head without a body, and anointing was common in Egypt (as well as Israel).

-Both started to preach at the age of 30 and had 12 disciples.

This is made up.

-Both walked on water and performed other miracles.

Miracles are common among gods and demigods, so that's insignificant. Horus never walked on water, though he was thrown into water.

-Both were crucified, buried and then resurrected.

Nope.

Source: Shattering the Christ Myth by J.P. Holding http://www.amazon.com...
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
THEBOMB
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12/12/2012 10:51:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Teachings are more interesting then the fact eastern coincides with another religions holiday or Jesus was born of a virgin just like a figure in another religion. Who gives a sh!t about that really? Bringing that up ad infinitum doesn't teach you anything about a religions development.
THEBOMB
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12/12/2012 10:52:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/12/2012 10:51:55 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
Teachings are more interesting then the fact eastern coincides with another religions holiday or Jesus was born of a virgin just like a figure in another religion. Who gives a sh!t about that really? Bringing that up ad nauseaum doesn't teach you anything about a religions development.
Paradox_7
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12/13/2012 8:50:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/12/2012 9:38:51 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
Here's one:

Christianity teaches that the "true-self" is divine. (The true-self is who you are in front of God.) Without going to deep into spiritual psychology (it's a very interesting thing, I suggest looking into it, very important theological concept.) There are levels of who you are. On the outside is the survival personality, then there is the ego, finally there is the true self. Everything obscures the true self. Once you break through that barrier, so to speak, you become "enlightened." You become who you really are, not what the world formed you to become. (In other words, you are a perfectly balanced person.) It's hard to explain concisely, at least for me. The Baghadvad Gita (Hindu holy text), the Buddha, and Lao Tzu (founder of Taoism) taught basically the exact same thing just in different words.

This is utterly false. Christ and all of his apostles taught that the "true-self" was the most wicked, and that everything evil comes from within us. So, we obscure everything, nothing obscures us. This is actually why I believe that Christianity stands alone; a clear understanding of the bible will reveal a message alien and unappealing to man and his "true-self".

Here is another:

"Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, Comes to Me." The Gospel According to John (Christian text)

John 6:44
44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

This says that the "true-self" will never come to Christ, unless God brings them to him. This is irresistible grace, and man only contribution, is the sin that makes it necessary.

"He who works for Me alone and has Me for his goal, is devoted to Me, is freed from attachment, and bears enmity towards no creature, He enters Me." The Bagavad Gita (Hindu text)

"He will go to the other shore and stand on dry land if he has realized liberation and hidden knowledge in this life." Catukka Nipata Pali (Buddhist text)

"Knowing that which does not change is enlightenment. Not knowing is blindness To be one with Tao is divine. Though you may die, you will not perish." The Tao te Ching (Taoist text) I am going to be honest, the Tao Te Ching is kinda counter-intuitive. It is a rather interesting philosophy though. (Look up philosophical Taoism for more details.)

If you look at them all, they all show that learning from the divine divine from "divine" sources is necessary for eternal life in some form. Basically, hidden knowledge is key. This directly parallels biblical teachings in which one needs to learn from god. It is much more complicated than that as there are many different conceptions of what constitutes learning from the divine. But, this is just a cursory glance.

These are very different messages, and speak a very man centered gospel. These are all conditons, and tasks for men to achieve. In John, the task is Gods, and it's been completed by him a lone, for his glory..

Another Parallel:

1. "The Kingdom is not coming with signs to be observed. The Kingdom of God is within you." The Gospel of Luke

This passage is awesome, but not for the reasons you are implying it is similar to the quotes below. It actually reads:

20 Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; 21 nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

In your midst not, inside you.

"Those who seek oneness ceaselessly find the Lord dwelling in their own hearts." The Bagavad Gita

I believe it should be fairly obvious what this means, god is within your heart (or soul however you wish to interpret it).

In the bible, there are many passages which are clear, and unambiguous; this is NOT one of them. The context of this passage lies in referrence to the casting out of satan, and the establishment of God's kingdom which is currently present due to Christ's coming. This has nothing to do with the kingdom being inside of us, or God actually being within us.

2. "When someone wants to take your shirt, let him have your coat as well. If someone forces you to go a mile with him, go with him an extra mile."
- The Gospels of Matthew, Luke and Thomas

Basically this says that people should be extra charitable.

"The greatest reward in the world is to provide for others. And there is no greater loss in the world than to accept from others without an attitude of gratefulness." The Buddha

Providing for others is very good. Accepting from others without gratitude is very bad.

These are pretty universal, so, granted.

"Give to the one who begs from you, and do not turn your back on one who wants to borrow from you." The Gospels of Matthew and Luke

"A disciple who seeks well-minded disciples should act without thinking when he performs acts of charity." The Dhammapada

All of these teachings basically hold the same basic tenant. Charity.

Agree'd.. but non-religious ppl can hold to these as well..

3. "And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every disease and every infirmity.
When he saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." The Gospel of Matthew

Christianity teaches that we should live as Jesus did. In other words, we should be ourselves, but we should help people.

While it certainly does teach we should be like Christ, it also teaches that we are in able to be like him, and that since we are inable, we are to rely on his works.. it says nothing about being yourself.. lol

"I give you a new commandment: Love one another as I have loved you." The Gospel of John

"Just as a mother would risk her life to protect her child, so should one cultivate a limitless heart of compassion for all beings." The Buddha

These all teach that we should love one another.

Christ says to love as he has loved; which is greater then a mother loves her child-- it's impossible to do such a thing.
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
THEBOMB
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12/13/2012 9:59:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
[stuff about the true self.]

This is utterly false. Christ and all of his apostles taught that the "true-self" was the most wicked, and that everything evil comes from within us. So, we obscure everything, nothing obscures us. This is actually why I believe that Christianity stands alone; a clear understanding of the bible will reveal a message alien and unappealing to man and his "true-self".

So we're all evil in the eyes of god? But, even if we accept this without argument (I don't but for the sake of argument) the argument still holds true that discovering who you really are leads to greater self realization.





"Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, Comes to Me." The Gospel According to John (Christian text)

John 6:44
44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

This says that the "true-self" will never come to Christ, unless God brings them to him. This is irresistible grace, and man only contribution, is the sin that makes it necessary.

Yet, you still have the make the choice to follow Christ and learn from his teachings. The Father may save people, but why would he save someone who does not even want to be with him?


"He who works for Me alone and has Me for his goal, is devoted to Me, is freed from attachment, and bears enmity towards no creature, He enters Me." The Bagavad Gita (Hindu text)

"He will go to the other shore and stand on dry land if he has realized liberation and hidden knowledge in this life." Catukka Nipata Pali (Buddhist text)

"Knowing that which does not change is enlightenment. Not knowing is blindness To be one with Tao is divine. Though you may die, you will not perish." The Tao te Ching (Taoist text) I am going to be honest, the Tao Te Ching is kinda counter-intuitive. It is a rather interesting philosophy though. (Look up philosophical Taoism for more details.)

If you look at them all, they all show that learning from the divine divine from "divine" sources is necessary for eternal life in some form. Basically, hidden knowledge is key. This directly parallels biblical teachings in which one needs to learn from god. It is much more complicated than that as there are many different conceptions of what constitutes learning from the divine. But, this is just a cursory glance.

These are very different messages, and speak a very man centered gospel. These are all conditons, and tasks for men to achieve. In John, the task is Gods, and it's been completed by him a lone, for his glory.

It may be God's task to complete, but it is man's task to take the first step and "allow" god to save them. I am saying allow in the loosest sense possible as anything is possible for god.


Another Parallel:

1. "The Kingdom is not coming with signs to be observed. The Kingdom of God is within you." The Gospel of Luke

This passage is awesome, but not for the reasons you are implying it is similar to the quotes below. It actually reads:

20 Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; 21 nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

In your midst not, inside you.

This would be an example of a translation difference. Wonderful. But, it still is ambiguous even here. What this means is that the Kingdom of God was among them. It is present in Jesus. Who is god. Jesus is with you always.


"Those who seek oneness ceaselessly find the Lord dwelling in their own hearts." The Bagavad Gita

I believe it should be fairly obvious what this means, god is within your heart (or soul however you wish to interpret it).

In the bible, there are many passages which are clear, and unambiguous; this is NOT one of them. The context of this passage lies in referrence to the casting out of satan, and the establishment of God's kingdom which is currently present due to Christ's coming. This has nothing to do with the kingdom being inside of us, or God actually being within us.

Do you deny that god is everywhere which includes within you?



2. "When someone wants to take your shirt, let him have your coat as well. If someone forces you to go a mile with him, go with him an extra mile."
- The Gospels of Matthew, Luke and Thomas

Basically this says that people should be extra charitable.

"The greatest reward in the world is to provide for others. And there is no greater loss in the world than to accept from others without an attitude of gratefulness." The Buddha

Providing for others is very good. Accepting from others without gratitude is very bad.

These are pretty universal, so, granted.

Yea. xD


"Give to the one who begs from you, and do not turn your back on one who wants to borrow from you." The Gospels of Matthew and Luke

"A disciple who seeks well-minded disciples should act without thinking when he performs acts of charity." The Dhammapada

All of these teachings basically hold the same basic tenant. Charity.

Agree'd.. but non-religious ppl can hold to these as well..

So? It's still part of religion.


3. "And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every disease and every infirmity.
When he saw the crowds, he had compassion for them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd." The Gospel of Matthew

Christianity teaches that we should live as Jesus did. In other words, we should be ourselves, but we should help people.

While it certainly does teach we should be like Christ, it also teaches that we are in able to be like him, and that since we are inable, we are to rely on his works.. it says nothing about being yourself.. lol

You live as Jesus once did. He was himself, correct? Jesus lived like Jesus lived. Biblically, that means god on earth. We cannot be gods, so we must be like Jesus in being ourselves.


"I give you a new commandment: Love one another as I have loved you." The Gospel of John

"Just as a mother would risk her life to protect her child, so should one cultivate a limitless heart of compassion for all beings." The Buddha

These all teach that we should love one another.

Christ says to love as he has loved; which is greater then a mother loves her child-- it's impossible to do such a thing.

You take Buddhist teachings way to literally. Trust me, 99.9999% of that stuff is completely metaphorical. I know your Christian and all, but try reading the Tao Te Ching (Taoist text), if you take everything in that book literally, your head will explode. For a nice Buddhist sect like that, look at Zen Buddhism, nothing they teach is completely literal. It's actually funny in a way.
DanielChristopherBlowes
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12/14/2012 9:53:49 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/12/2012 8:38:36 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
I just saw something in "What defines a Christian?", that made me think of starting this thread.

I'd like to hear the similarities between Christs teachings with other philosophers, teachers, holy-men, prophets, etc.

Some people mention that Christ may have adopted the philosophy of others, or that he was a copy cat; either way, can anyone provide a few?

Satan is a counterfeiter, so He will steal Gods truths and put them in others mouths if it will deceive you into hell..
Everyone on the side of Truth listens to Me. (Jesus Christ)
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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12/14/2012 9:56:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/12/2012 9:02:39 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/12/2012 9:00:14 PM, Paradox_7 wrote:
have you heard any particular similarites that you'd like to set straight or bring forward?

I've heard a bunch of them, but I can't think of anything off the top of my head right now. I know there was one about how Jesus said to do to others what you would have them do to you, and I think it was attributed to Buddha that you should not do to other what you would not want done to you.

Also in Tobit somewhere. I forget the verse and passage.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
Paradox_7
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12/14/2012 3:15:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/13/2012 9:59:58 PM, THEBOMB wrote:
[stuff about the true self.]

This is utterly false. Christ and all of his apostles taught that the "true-self" was the most wicked, and that everything evil comes from within us. So, we obscure everything, nothing obscures us. This is actually why I believe that Christianity stands alone; a clear understanding of the bible will reveal a message alien and unappealing to man and his "true-self".

So we're all evil in the eyes of god? But, even if we accept this without argument (I don't but for the sake of argument) the argument still holds true that discovering who you really are leads to greater self realization.


I agree, but instead of a discovery its a revelation. God views humanity as it is: sinful. God views his chosen, in light of Christ.

Don't take my word for it, tell me what else these passage could possibly mean:

Romans 3
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."


Jeremiah 17
9 The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it?


Isaiah 64
6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away.


Mark 7
21 For it is from within, out of a person"s heart, that evil thoughts come"sexual immorality, theft, murder, 22 adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and defile a person."
(This can address your assertion that Christ believed the world defiled people)

There are many more, but I'll leave you with these.

Yet, you still have the make the choice to follow Christ and learn from his teachings. The Father may save people, but why would he save someone who does not even want to be with him?

Incorrect, there is no human choice for Christ; No one wants God. They may want their version of God, and there image of God, but they don't actually want YHWH. He is righteous, just, and holy and we want nothing to do with his righteousness, justice, or holiness.

Refer to Romans 3 above, as clear as day: "...no one seeks God.". Further more, in Romans 9--

11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad"in order that God"s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works[1] but by him who calls"she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God"s mercy.


In other words, God chooses who will be saved, based on how he chose for them to be saved (Christ's death), and uses whom he wishes for his purposes. Man doesn't seek God, and free-will is a lie. I can go on much further, but ultimately, this seperates Christianity far from any other religion. So far only minor similarities.

It may be God's task to complete, but it is man's task to take the first step and "allow" god to save them. I am saying allow in the loosest sense possible as anything is possible for god.

Lol, allow God to save them? Let me ask you a question.. Would a mother be loving, if she saw her child running toward a busy intersection, and did nothing but plead with the child to stop, turn around, come to mommy? No... God, being as loving for his children as he is, actually takes hold of them, and keeps them safe.

Greater then our will, is his love.

This would be an example of a translation difference. Wonderful. But, it still is ambiguous even here. What this means is that the Kingdom of God was among them. It is present in Jesus. Who is god. Jesus is with you always.

This is correct, but not at all what you originally insinuiated it was saying.

Do you deny that god is everywhere which includes within you?

No I do not deny that God himself dwells in people, I deny that we are God or we are divine because of it. God, the holy spirit, conscience, is foreign to our nature, and thus we are constantly at battle with it.

You live as Jesus once did. He was himself, correct? Jesus lived like Jesus lived. Biblically, that means god on earth. We cannot be gods, so we must be like Jesus in being ourselves.

This seems like you're back backpedaling a bit; not that there is anything wrong with that, but you might as well concede. Jesus says to die to ourselves, that is, our sinful nature. So, he encourgaeous us to embrace this new nature, so that we suffer less in this life.

I've read a bit of everything throughout my life, and I'm sure amongst most of it were things that need not to be takin literally; even in the bible. The difference I've seen, is because the authors using metaphors and hyperboles were expounding on literal scripture in attempts to drive home the message, which is ultimately to extreme or unhuman, to accept without direct influence from God; a changing of desire.

Look up mongergism; http://www.monergism.com...
: At 10/23/2012 8:06:03 PM, tvellalott wrote:
: Don't be. The Catholic Church is ran by Darth Sidius for fvck sake. As far as I'm concerned, you're a bona fide member of the Sith.
Composer
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12/15/2012 3:34:01 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/14/2012 9:53:49 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
Satan is a counterfeiter, so He will steal Gods truths and put them in others mouths if it will deceive you into hell..

My YLT & E. Diaglott translations make NO mention of the Hebrew Term ' Satan ' so according to them this Satan you drivel about doesn't exist?

Your mentor & personal successful literal Saviour, moi!

Me Composer the ongoing successful & vindicated Cult buster!
DanielChristopherBlowes
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12/15/2012 9:34:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/15/2012 3:34:01 AM, Composer wrote:
At 12/14/2012 9:53:49 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
Satan is a counterfeiter, so He will steal Gods truths and put them in others mouths if it will deceive you into hell..

My YLT & E. Diaglott translations make NO mention of the Hebrew Term ' Satan ' so according to them this Satan you drivel about doesn't exist?

Your mentor & personal successful literal Saviour, moi!

Me Composer the ongoing successful & vindicated Cult buster!

I don't even read your posts anymore:D
Everyone on the side of Truth listens to Me. (Jesus Christ)
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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12/15/2012 10:57:17 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/15/2012 3:34:01 AM, Composer wrote:
At 12/14/2012 9:53:49 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
Satan is a counterfeiter, so He will steal Gods truths and put them in others mouths if it will deceive you into hell..

My YLT & E. Diaglott translations make NO mention of the Hebrew Term ' Satan ' so according to them this Satan you drivel about doesn't exist?

Your mentor & personal successful literal Saviour, moi!

Me Composer the ongoing successful & vindicated Cult buster!

You've got a lot of nerve to babble this exact same drivel that annanicole already demolished.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
DanielChristopherBlowes
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12/15/2012 11:49:28 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/15/2012 10:57:17 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 12/15/2012 3:34:01 AM, Composer wrote:
At 12/14/2012 9:53:49 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
Satan is a counterfeiter, so He will steal Gods truths and put them in others mouths if it will deceive you into hell..

My YLT & E. Diaglott translations make NO mention of the Hebrew Term ' Satan ' so according to them this Satan you drivel about doesn't exist?

Your mentor & personal successful literal Saviour, moi!

Me Composer the ongoing successful & vindicated Cult buster!

You've got a lot of nerve to babble this exact same drivel that annanicole already demolished.

Don't read his posts, he hates DDO and all it stands for.
Everyone on the side of Truth listens to Me. (Jesus Christ)