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Why God Cannot Exist (short arguments)

GOD-vs-ITSELF
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12/15/2012 2:48:49 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
The new issues from last thread.

I am eagerly awaiting some input on these arguments I have been considering.

a) If an infinite God was all that existed in the beginning it cannot divide itself into anything other that itself, 00/00=00. (were does one end and the other begin)

b) God cannot think of a highest number. Limited even so (Also Why Our Free Will Is Impossible)

c) God cannot make a first choice because it would require two unknown options, Otherwise God never made a choice. (also if god had option to not make choice then it would have to already exist)

d) God cannot have a first thought if eternal, God cannot be eternal if absolute. (Absolute = Complete = Needs Beginning & End)

e) If the Infinite Past exists then god could have never reached the present unless such was a "closed" infinite.

f) If god was a closed infinite, then that just says everything happens and infinite amount of times.
If You Believe In Free Will, Then Don't Picture A Hippo For One Minute. Starting NOW
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Posts: 2,900
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12/15/2012 3:06:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
This has nothing to do with your post, but I met the challenge in your signature.

Come at me.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
medic0506
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12/15/2012 9:24:53 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/15/2012 2:48:49 AM, GOD-vs-ITSELF wrote:
The new issues from last thread.


I am eagerly awaiting some input on these arguments I have been considering.

a) If an infinite God was all that existed in the beginning it cannot divide itself into anything other that itself, 00/00=00. (were does one end and the other begin)

If we're assuming that God exists then wouldn't the formula be more appropriately expressed as 1/1=1?? Also, why do you say that God can't divide Himself??

b) God cannot think of a highest number. Limited even so (Also Why Our Free Will Is Impossible)

If there are an infinite amount of numbers then there is no "highest number". If there is a highest number then how do you know that God doesn't know it??

c) God cannot make a first choice because it would require two unknown options, Otherwise God never made a choice. (also if god had option to not make choice then it would have to already exist)

If I'm understanding this challenge correctly, no choice could exist until God created it.

d) God cannot have a first thought if eternal, God cannot be eternal if absolute. (Absolute = Complete = Needs Beginning & End)

He is the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end, thus eternal.

e) If the Infinite Past exists then god could have never reached the present unless such was a "closed" infinite.

The concept of an infinite past isn't a valid one when discussing God. He can exist within or without time, we are the ones who need time. Time didn't exist until God created it, which is why we say He's eternal rather expressing Him in mathematical form, as an infinite.

f) If god was a closed infinite, then that just says everything happens and infinite amount of times.

See above.
DanielChristopherBlowes
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12/15/2012 9:29:38 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/15/2012 2:48:49 AM, GOD-vs-ITSELF wrote:
The new issues from last thread.


I am eagerly awaiting some input on these arguments I have been considering.

a) If an infinite God was all that existed in the beginning it cannot divide itself into anything other that itself, 00/00=00. (were does one end and the other begin)

b) God cannot think of a highest number. Limited even so (Also Why Our Free Will Is Impossible)

c) God cannot make a first choice because it would require two unknown options, Otherwise God never made a choice. (also if god had option to not make choice then it would have to already exist)

d) God cannot have a first thought if eternal, God cannot be eternal if absolute. (Absolute = Complete = Needs Beginning & End)

e) If the Infinite Past exists then god could have never reached the present unless such was a "closed" infinite.

f) If god was a closed infinite, then that just says everything happens and infinite amount of times.

God is not defined by our puny 'logic'.. He is the eternal I AM.

I AM simply means I EXIST, I AM WHAT I AM.
Everyone on the side of Truth listens to Me. (Jesus Christ)
Ramshutu
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12/15/2012 12:28:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/15/2012 9:24:53 AM, medic0506 wrote:
The concept of an infinite past isn't a valid one when discussing God. He can exist within or without time, we are the ones who need time. Time didn't exist until God created it, which is why we say He's eternal rather expressing Him in mathematical form, as an infinite.

You cannot "Create" something without time. If you don't agree, I challenge you to define the word "Create" without invoking terms such as "Before" or "After" or other terms which imply the concept of linear time.

Now, I do not pressume to know what you beleive, but what you have stated here is almost idenditcal to the type of arguments made concerning the scientifically explained beggining of the universe, which are generally laughed away as "absurd" and "you can't get something from nothing" by those who "robustly". argue in favor of God
DanielChristopherBlowes
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12/15/2012 2:16:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/15/2012 2:13:06 PM, Anti-atheist wrote:
God is outside of time so ur hole argunent sucks

'Whole'.
Everyone on the side of Truth listens to Me. (Jesus Christ)
GOD-vs-ITSELF
Posts: 274
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12/15/2012 2:36:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/15/2012 3:06:00 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
This has nothing to do with your post, but I met the challenge in your signature.

Come at me.

Haha omg good job lol it was easy as pie huh... Sh*t

I don't mean to pry but if you are willing and have a sec could you describe how that went.. Like did you immediately picture a brick wall, or boobs or try to go blank etc.

The arguments are important but any info you can add about my challenge is extremely helpful, as I cannot take my own test.. Your the first one.
If You Believe In Free Will, Then Don't Picture A Hippo For One Minute. Starting NOW
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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12/15/2012 3:49:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/15/2012 12:28:06 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 12/15/2012 9:24:53 AM, medic0506 wrote:
The concept of an infinite past isn't a valid one when discussing God. He can exist within or without time, we are the ones who need time. Time didn't exist until God created it, which is why we say He's eternal rather expressing Him in mathematical form, as an infinite.

You cannot "Create" something without time. If you don't agree, I challenge you to define the word "Create" without invoking terms such as "Before" or "After" or other terms which imply the concept of linear time.

Create- bring into existence

Now, I do not pressume to know what you beleive, but what you have stated here is almost idenditcal to the type of arguments made concerning the scientifically explained beggining of the universe, which are generally laughed away as "absurd" and "you can't get something from nothing" by those who "robustly". argue in favor of God

Seems to me that it's a matter of God created it vs. it created itself.
GOD-vs-ITSELF
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12/15/2012 4:09:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/15/2012 9:24:53 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 12/15/2012 2:48:49 AM, GOD-vs-ITSELF wrote:
The new issues from last thread.


I am eagerly awaiting some input on these arguments I have been considering.

a) If an infinite God was all that existed in the beginning it cannot divide itself into anything other that itself, 00/00=00. (were does one end and the other begin)

If we're assuming that God exists then wouldn't the formula be more appropriately expressed as 1/1=1?? Also, why do you say that God can't divide Himself??


I thought god was infinite are you saying god is finite? 00 means infinity, I didn't think god was like a pizza you can just simply piece off.

b) God cannot think of a highest number. Limited even so (Also Why Our Free Will Is Impossible)

If there are an infinite amount of numbers then there is no "highest number". If there is a highest number then how do you know that God doesn't know it??


I mean highest as in personal best, or in competition with someone else. Of course there is no highest number, the fact you would even propose such just to grant god may have it is funny though.

c) God cannot make a first choice because it would require two unknown options, Otherwise God never made a choice. (also if god had option to not make choice then it would have to already exist)

If I'm understanding this challenge correctly, no choice could exist until God created it.


What I am saying is choice "can't be created" because it would have to already exist. Say if god decided to make choice or not, it would be the choice to bring choice into existence. I am glad you

d) God cannot have a first thought if eternal, God cannot be eternal if absolute. (Absolute = Complete = Needs Beginning & End)

He is the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end, thus eternal.

The flaw in your logic is this, If god is eternal it cant have a beginning and end. Because (Eternal=Endless) I would NOT expect you would want to say "then one day god was born" or say "then on day god died."


e) If the Infinite Past exists then god could have never reached the present unless such was a "closed" infinite.

The concept of an infinite past isn't a valid one when discussing God. He can exist within or without time, we are the ones who need time. Time didn't exist until God created it, which is why we say He's eternal rather expressing Him in mathematical form, as an infinite.


You said "Time Didn't Exist UNTIL God Created it" I believe another person before with keen attention to detail pointed out your use of a temporal modality.

We are the ones who need time. lol Okay that is were you evoke infinity alongside eternity. Eternity is a reference to time. If there is more time that can be added to eternity such as not needing time, then your issue is with argument a) how can finite come from infinite, if infinite cannot be divided. This shouldn't surprise me as I often get mistaken for the Alpha and Omega.
If You Believe In Free Will, Then Don't Picture A Hippo For One Minute. Starting NOW
GOD-vs-ITSELF
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12/15/2012 4:15:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/15/2012 3:49:54 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 12/15/2012 12:28:06 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 12/15/2012 9:24:53 AM, medic0506 wrote:
The concept of an infinite past isn't a valid one when discussing God. He can exist within or without time, we are the ones who need time. Time didn't exist until God created it, which is why we say He's eternal rather expressing Him in mathematical form, as an infinite.

You cannot "Create" something without time. If you don't agree, I challenge you to define the word "Create" without invoking terms such as "Before" or "After" or other terms which imply the concept of linear time.

Create- bring into existence

Now, I do not pressume to know what you beleive, but what you have stated here is almost idenditcal to the type of arguments made concerning the scientifically explained beggining of the universe, which are generally laughed away as "absurd" and "you can't get something from nothing" by those who "robustly". argue in favor of God

Seems to me that it's a matter of God created it vs. it created itself.

See what is wrong with your biased model? You make the universe have to jump through a hoop that you exempt your god from. You punt the question with starting your view after the fact.

Thing should seem to you a matter of God created itself in some sort of super universe or it created itself nowhere and then created our universe vs our universe created itself
If You Believe In Free Will, Then Don't Picture A Hippo For One Minute. Starting NOW
Ramshutu
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12/15/2012 4:23:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/15/2012 3:49:54 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 12/15/2012 12:28:06 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 12/15/2012 9:24:53 AM, medic0506 wrote:
The concept of an infinite past isn't a valid one when discussing God. He can exist within or without time, we are the ones who need time. Time didn't exist until God created it, which is why we say He's eternal rather expressing Him in mathematical form, as an infinite.

You cannot "Create" something without time. If you don't agree, I challenge you to define the word "Create" without invoking terms such as "Before" or "After" or other terms which imply the concept of linear time.

Create- bring into existence


"Into" and "bring" denote time. At one point in time there was nothing, at another point in time there was something. Not possible without time.

Now, I do not pressume to know what you beleive, but what you have stated here is almost idenditcal to the type of arguments made concerning the scientifically explained beggining of the universe, which are generally laughed away as "absurd" and "you can't get something from nothing" by those who "robustly". argue in favor of God

Seems to me that it's a matter of God created it vs. it created itself.

Yes, because it's stupid for anything to "exist for no reason".

... Except for God. God can exist for no reason.

This is the problem, it is contradictory if not plain intellectually dishonest to say that things cannot come into existance from nothing (the universe) and then say that something can come into existance from nothing (God.)
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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12/15/2012 4:31:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/15/2012 2:36:20 PM, GOD-vs-ITSELF wrote:
At 12/15/2012 3:06:00 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
This has nothing to do with your post, but I met the challenge in your signature.

Come at me.

Haha omg good job lol it was easy as pie huh... Sh*t

I don't mean to pry but if you are willing and have a sec could you describe how that went.. Like did you immediately picture a brick wall, or boobs or try to go blank etc.

The arguments are important but any info you can add about my challenge is extremely helpful, as I cannot take my own test.. Your the first one.

As soon as I read it, I stared at my keyboard and thought of the number zero for a few seconds. Then, I went back to debate.org and started reading some random debate, focusing intently on every single word I read. Eventually, a minute passed.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
GOD-vs-ITSELF
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12/15/2012 8:03:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/15/2012 4:31:04 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 12/15/2012 2:36:20 PM, GOD-vs-ITSELF wrote:
At 12/15/2012 3:06:00 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
This has nothing to do with your post, but I met the challenge in your signature.

Come at me.

Haha omg good job lol it was easy as pie huh... Sh*t

I don't mean to pry but if you are willing and have a sec could you describe how that went.. Like did you immediately picture a brick wall, or boobs or try to go blank etc.

The arguments are important but any info you can add about my challenge is extremely helpful, as I cannot take my own test.. Your the first one.

As soon as I read it, I stared at my keyboard and thought of the number zero for a few seconds. Then, I went back to debate.org and started reading some random debate, focusing intently on every single word I read. Eventually, a minute passed.

Well Done Sir, I am curious how you switched tasks without checking what not to do. It intrigues me that you were able to pull away after merely reading "starting now".

Do you think a test such as this could be made to be unbeatable? I mean you know what it felt like. Do you think you can make something that cannot be just pulled away from in that same way?

I am sorry to just go off on you here but this is kinda crazy for me. lol
If You Believe In Free Will, Then Don't Picture A Hippo For One Minute. Starting NOW
GOD-vs-ITSELF
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12/15/2012 8:08:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/15/2012 2:13:06 PM, Anti-atheist wrote:
God is outside of time so ur hole argunent sucks

If there is an outside of time, then time isn't real. You cant then say your god is any more before time than after or during time. So if you say god is before time, you also have to say god doesn't necessarily exist yet.
If You Believe In Free Will, Then Don't Picture A Hippo For One Minute. Starting NOW
GOD-vs-ITSELF
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12/15/2012 8:16:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/15/2012 9:29:38 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 12/15/2012 2:48:49 AM, GOD-vs-ITSELF wrote:
The new issues from last thread.


I am eagerly awaiting some input on these arguments I have been considering.

a) If an infinite God was all that existed in the beginning it cannot divide itself into anything other that itself, 00/00=00. (were does one end and the other begin)

b) God cannot think of a highest number. Limited even so (Also Why Our Free Will Is Impossible)

c) God cannot make a first choice because it would require two unknown options, Otherwise God never made a choice. (also if god had option to not make choice then it would have to already exist)

d) God cannot have a first thought if eternal, God cannot be eternal if absolute. (Absolute = Complete = Needs Beginning & End)

e) If the Infinite Past exists then god could have never reached the present unless such was a "closed" infinite.

f) If god was a closed infinite, then that just says everything happens and infinite amount of times.

God is not defined by our puny 'logic'.. He is the eternal I AM.

I AM simply means I EXIST, I AM WHAT I AM.

If god is not defined by logic why does god care if we believe in it or not. I cannot believe 2+2=5 because I need the answer to be logical and consistent....
If You Believe In Free Will, Then Don't Picture A Hippo For One Minute. Starting NOW
1Devilsadvocate
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12/15/2012 9:42:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/15/2012 2:48:49 AM, GOD-vs-ITSELF wrote:
The new issues from last thread.


I am eagerly awaiting some input on these arguments I have been considering.

a) If an infinite God was all that existed in the beginning it cannot divide itself into anything other that itself, 00/00=00. (were does one end and the other begin)

? - Not exactly sure what that means.
God isn't physical, & the concept of infinity cannot be completely grasped.
Hotel paradox.
b) God cannot think of a highest number. Limited even so (Also Why Our Free Will Is Impossible)

The term "a highest number", is nonsensical, has no meaning, doesn't & cannot exist.
There is no such thing/concept called "a highest number"
c) God cannot make a first choice because it would require two unknown options, Otherwise God never made a choice. (also if god had option to not make choice then it would have to already exist)

Whats wrong with 2 unknown options?
d) God cannot have a first thought if eternal, God cannot be eternal if absolute. (Absolute = Complete = Needs Beginning & End)

a) Why can't God have a 1st thought if he's eternal?
b) Who said he had a 1st thought?
e) If the Infinite Past exists then god could have never reached the present unless such was a "closed" infinite.

Who said there is an infinite past?
What's a "closed " infinite?
f) If god was a closed infinite, then that just says everything happens and infinite amount of times.
What's a "closed " infinite?
I cannot write in English, because of the treacherous spelling. When I am reading, I only hear it and am unable to remember what the written word looks like."
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DanielChristopherBlowes
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12/16/2012 3:04:35 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/15/2012 8:16:07 PM, GOD-vs-ITSELF wrote:
At 12/15/2012 9:29:38 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 12/15/2012 2:48:49 AM, GOD-vs-ITSELF wrote:
The new issues from last thread.


I am eagerly awaiting some input on these arguments I have been considering.

a) If an infinite God was all that existed in the beginning it cannot divide itself into anything other that itself, 00/00=00. (were does one end and the other begin)

b) God cannot think of a highest number. Limited even so (Also Why Our Free Will Is Impossible)

c) God cannot make a first choice because it would require two unknown options, Otherwise God never made a choice. (also if god had option to not make choice then it would have to already exist)

d) God cannot have a first thought if eternal, God cannot be eternal if absolute. (Absolute = Complete = Needs Beginning & End)

e) If the Infinite Past exists then god could have never reached the present unless such was a "closed" infinite.

f) If god was a closed infinite, then that just says everything happens and infinite amount of times.

God is not defined by our puny 'logic'.. He is the eternal I AM.

I AM simply means I EXIST, I AM WHAT I AM.

If god is not defined by logic why does god care if we believe in it or not. I cannot believe 2+2=5 because I need the answer to be logical and consistent....

I do believe He (the inventor of Maths) is, I do not believe you or I are.
Everyone on the side of Truth listens to Me. (Jesus Christ)
GOD-vs-ITSELF
Posts: 274
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12/16/2012 3:07:22 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/16/2012 3:04:35 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 12/15/2012 8:16:07 PM, GOD-vs-ITSELF wrote:
At 12/15/2012 9:29:38 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 12/15/2012 2:48:49 AM, GOD-vs-ITSELF wrote:
The new issues from last thread.


I am eagerly awaiting some input on these arguments I have been considering.

a) If an infinite God was all that existed in the beginning it cannot divide itself into anything other that itself, 00/00=00. (were does one end and the other begin)

b) God cannot think of a highest number. Limited even so (Also Why Our Free Will Is Impossible)

c) God cannot make a first choice because it would require two unknown options, Otherwise God never made a choice. (also if god had option to not make choice then it would have to already exist)

d) God cannot have a first thought if eternal, God cannot be eternal if absolute. (Absolute = Complete = Needs Beginning & End)

e) If the Infinite Past exists then god could have never reached the present unless such was a "closed" infinite.

f) If god was a closed infinite, then that just says everything happens and infinite amount of times.

God is not defined by our puny 'logic'.. He is the eternal I AM.

I AM simply means I EXIST, I AM WHAT I AM.

If god is not defined by logic why does god care if we believe in it or not. I cannot believe 2+2=5 because I need the answer to be logical and consistent....

I do believe He (the inventor of Maths) is, I do not believe you or I are.

If the bible said 2+2=5 you can believe that?
If You Believe In Free Will, Then Don't Picture A Hippo For One Minute. Starting NOW
DanielChristopherBlowes
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12/16/2012 3:12:53 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/16/2012 3:07:22 AM, GOD-vs-ITSELF wrote:
At 12/16/2012 3:04:35 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 12/15/2012 8:16:07 PM, GOD-vs-ITSELF wrote:
At 12/15/2012 9:29:38 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 12/15/2012 2:48:49 AM, GOD-vs-ITSELF wrote:
The new issues from last thread.


I am eagerly awaiting some input on these arguments I have been considering.

a) If an infinite God was all that existed in the beginning it cannot divide itself into anything other that itself, 00/00=00. (were does one end and the other begin)

b) God cannot think of a highest number. Limited even so (Also Why Our Free Will Is Impossible)

c) God cannot make a first choice because it would require two unknown options, Otherwise God never made a choice. (also if god had option to not make choice then it would have to already exist)

d) God cannot have a first thought if eternal, God cannot be eternal if absolute. (Absolute = Complete = Needs Beginning & End)

e) If the Infinite Past exists then god could have never reached the present unless such was a "closed" infinite.

f) If god was a closed infinite, then that just says everything happens and infinite amount of times.

God is not defined by our puny 'logic'.. He is the eternal I AM.

I AM simply means I EXIST, I AM WHAT I AM.

If god is not defined by logic why does god care if we believe in it or not. I cannot believe 2+2=5 because I need the answer to be logical and consistent....

I do believe He (the inventor of Maths) is, I do not believe you or I are.

If the bible said 2+2=5 you can believe that?

It doesn't though does it?

Instead, you tell me something you personally find contradictory in the Bible, and I'll see if I can help.
Everyone on the side of Truth listens to Me. (Jesus Christ)
GOD-vs-ITSELF
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12/16/2012 5:03:45 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/15/2012 9:42:24 PM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
At 12/15/2012 2:48:49 AM, GOD-vs-ITSELF wrote:
The new issues from last thread.


I am eagerly awaiting some input on these arguments I have been considering.

a) If an infinite God was all that existed in the beginning it cannot divide itself into anything other that itself, 00/00=00. (were does one end and the other begin)

? - Not exactly sure what that means.
God isn't physical, & the concept of infinity cannot be completely grasped.
Hotel paradox.

First of all, Thank you so much for your answers.
If the concept isn't well understood then it should not be associated with god right?
All too often I hear god is infinite. I am also not expecting physical to hold the place of infinite/eternal. Could you help me out with anything specifically wrong with the idea..?

b) God cannot think of a highest number. Limited even so (Also Why Our Free Will Is Impossible)

The term "a highest number", is nonsensical, has no meaning, doesn't & cannot exist.
There is no such thing/concept called "a highest number"

Personal or Group Best
If I wanted to try to think of the highest number out of all other humans, only one can actually achieve that no matter how free everyone may think their will is.
If god thinks can think of a high number why not higher. Many will say god is beyond numbers, that sounds like trying to be more than infinite, isn't that nonsense?

c) God cannot make a first choice because it would require two unknown options, Otherwise God never made a choice. (also if god had option to not make choice then it would have to already exist)

Whats wrong with 2 unknown options?

That would mean two options existed before gods first choice. This would result two things which god could not create.

d) God cannot have a first thought if eternal, God cannot be eternal if absolute. (Absolute = Complete = Needs Beginning & End)

a) Why can't God have a 1st thought if he's eternal?

I like you. lol. Are we assuming gods thoughts are not also eternal? I gather your imagining a god that has alway existed but then one fine tuesday God has It's First thought "AHH Kelly Clarkson!!" If your saying gods thoughts are not eternal then saying god itself is, I would feel like your trying to give God a subconscious.

b) Who said he had a 1st thought?
Who said he had none? This shows how God cannot have free will. I am sure you would say either Gods first thought was perfect or had all thoughts simultaneously. Both do not give god choice in choosing any thought. So it seems like either god has no thoughts or they are arbitrary.

e) If the Infinite Past exists then god could have never reached the present unless such was a "closed" infinite.

Who said there is an infinite past?
Hopefully not a gotcha on my use of infinite in place of eternal but I use them interchangeably it's a point, but Im referring to the similarity of infinite and what many people relate gods power over time itself as being that which has no beginning, and can be manipulated etc. Would you say the finite past always existed, I will agree with that use of language, but not infinite in the finite past.

What's a "closed " infinite?

Closed: Such as between 1 and 2 there are infinite decimals.
Open: Ever Growing String = Hotel Paradox

Is EVERYTHING TOGETHER infinite, or is there more that must be added to this to then make it infinite. Such as your issue of a highest number. In your experience of thinking about infinite, doesn't it go something like, with infinite you can always and one more. It is kinda weird that infinite is defined as all yet all are too small at the same time. Does it help to divide them up?

f) If god was a closed infinite, then that just says everything happens and infinite amount of times.
What's a "closed " infinite?

This is where the string is not growable like an open infinite but instead connected at both ends. In argument f) the only way to still reconcile any form of infinite is to say everything repeats forever. I don't think that would coincide with any god at all which is another reason I am Atheist.

Thanks again for all of your well thought out answers.
If You Believe In Free Will, Then Don't Picture A Hippo For One Minute. Starting NOW
GOD-vs-ITSELF
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12/16/2012 5:08:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/16/2012 3:12:53 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 12/16/2012 3:07:22 AM, GOD-vs-ITSELF wrote:
At 12/16/2012 3:04:35 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 12/15/2012 8:16:07 PM, GOD-vs-ITSELF wrote:
At 12/15/2012 9:29:38 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 12/15/2012 2:48:49 AM, GOD-vs-ITSELF wrote:
The new issues from last thread.


I am eagerly awaiting some input on these arguments I have been considering.

a) If an infinite God was all that existed in the beginning it cannot divide itself into anything other that itself, 00/00=00. (were does one end and the other begin)

b) God cannot think of a highest number. Limited even so (Also Why Our Free Will Is Impossible)

c) God cannot make a first choice because it would require two unknown options, Otherwise God never made a choice. (also if god had option to not make choice then it would have to already exist)

d) God cannot have a first thought if eternal, God cannot be eternal if absolute. (Absolute = Complete = Needs Beginning & End)

e) If the Infinite Past exists then god could have never reached the present unless such was a "closed" infinite.

f) If god was a closed infinite, then that just says everything happens and infinite amount of times.

God is not defined by our puny 'logic'.. He is the eternal I AM.

I AM simply means I EXIST, I AM WHAT I AM.

If god is not defined by logic why does god care if we believe in it or not. I cannot believe 2+2=5 because I need the answer to be logical and consistent....

I do believe He (the inventor of Maths) is, I do not believe you or I are.

If the bible said 2+2=5 you can believe that?

It doesn't though does it?

Instead, you tell me something you personally find contradictory in the Bible, and I'll see if I can help.

Why would you care about solving a contradiction? I just showed that your god cannot be explained without a contradiction and you just say God cannot be defined by our puny logic. That is a show stopper
If You Believe In Free Will, Then Don't Picture A Hippo For One Minute. Starting NOW
DanielChristopherBlowes
Posts: 1,066
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12/16/2012 7:19:25 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/16/2012 5:08:11 AM, GOD-vs-ITSELF wrote:
At 12/16/2012 3:12:53 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 12/16/2012 3:07:22 AM, GOD-vs-ITSELF wrote:
At 12/16/2012 3:04:35 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 12/15/2012 8:16:07 PM, GOD-vs-ITSELF wrote:
At 12/15/2012 9:29:38 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 12/15/2012 2:48:49 AM, GOD-vs-ITSELF wrote:
The new issues from last thread.


I am eagerly awaiting some input on these arguments I have been considering.

a) If an infinite God was all that existed in the beginning it cannot divide itself into anything other that itself, 00/00=00. (were does one end and the other begin)

b) God cannot think of a highest number. Limited even so (Also Why Our Free Will Is Impossible)

c) God cannot make a first choice because it would require two unknown options, Otherwise God never made a choice. (also if god had option to not make choice then it would have to already exist)

d) God cannot have a first thought if eternal, God cannot be eternal if absolute. (Absolute = Complete = Needs Beginning & End)

e) If the Infinite Past exists then god could have never reached the present unless such was a "closed" infinite.

f) If god was a closed infinite, then that just says everything happens and infinite amount of times.

God is not defined by our puny 'logic'.. He is the eternal I AM.

I AM simply means I EXIST, I AM WHAT I AM.

If god is not defined by logic why does god care if we believe in it or not. I cannot believe 2+2=5 because I need the answer to be logical and consistent....

I do believe He (the inventor of Maths) is, I do not believe you or I are.

If the bible said 2+2=5 you can believe that?

It doesn't though does it?

Instead, you tell me something you personally find contradictory in the Bible, and I'll see if I can help.

Why would you care about solving a contradiction? I just showed that your god cannot be explained without a contradiction and you just say God cannot be defined by our puny logic. That is a show stopper

I care about defending His word, there are no contradictions in the Bible, only in fallen humanity.
Everyone on the side of Truth listens to Me. (Jesus Christ)
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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12/16/2012 9:28:26 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/15/2012 4:09:22 PM, GOD-vs-ITSELF wrote:
At 12/15/2012 9:24:53 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 12/15/2012 2:48:49 AM, GOD-vs-ITSELF wrote:
The new issues from last thread.


I am eagerly awaiting some input on these arguments I have been considering.

a) If an infinite God was all that existed in the beginning it cannot divide itself into anything other that itself, 00/00=00. (were does one end and the other begin)

If we're assuming that God exists then wouldn't the formula be more appropriately expressed as 1/1=1?? Also, why do you say that God can't divide Himself??


I thought god was infinite are you saying god is finite? 00 means infinity, I didn't think god was like a pizza you can just simply piece off.

lol...You don't slice Him up like a pizza that has a finite amount of peices. He is in everything that He creates, as well as outside it.

b) God cannot think of a highest number. Limited even so (Also Why Our Free Will Is Impossible)

If there are an infinite amount of numbers then there is no "highest number". If there is a highest number then how do you know that God doesn't know it??


I mean highest as in personal best, or in competition with someone else. Of course there is no highest number, the fact you would even propose such just to grant god may have it is funny though.

Ok this one is just silly. Can you think of a higher number than God can??

c) God cannot make a first choice because it would require two unknown options, Otherwise God never made a choice. (also if god had option to not make choice then it would have to already exist)

If I'm understanding this challenge correctly, no choice could exist until God created it.


What I am saying is choice "can't be created" because it would have to already exist. Say if god decided to make choice or not, it would be the choice to bring choice into existence. I am glad you

I don't see any valid argument against God here.

d) God cannot have a first thought if eternal, God cannot be eternal if absolute. (Absolute = Complete = Needs Beginning & End)

He is the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end, thus eternal.

The flaw in your logic is this, If god is eternal it cant have a beginning and end. Because (Eternal=Endless) I would NOT expect you would want to say "then one day god was born" or say "then on day god died."

There is no flaw here. He said He is the beginning and end, meaning that He is all-inclusive. He was not born, He has always existed. He will not die, He will always exist. That seems pretty simple to grasp.

e) If the Infinite Past exists then god could have never reached the present unless such was a "closed" infinite.

The concept of an infinite past isn't a valid one when discussing God. He can exist within or without time, we are the ones who need time. Time didn't exist until God created it, which is why we say He's eternal rather expressing Him in mathematical form, as an infinite.


You said "Time Didn't Exist UNTIL God Created it" I believe another person before with keen attention to detail pointed out your use of a temporal modality.

We are the ones who need time. lol Okay that is were you evoke infinity alongside eternity. Eternity is a reference to time. If there is more time that can be added to eternity such as not needing time, then your issue is with argument a) how can finite come from infinite, if infinite cannot be divided.

I think your arguments assume that God must behave, and be limited by the same laws that we are subject to. If that were true then He wouldn't be worthy of the title of God.

This shouldn't surprise me as I often get mistaken for the Alpha and Omega.

lol...ok then, can you whip up another universe for us??
medic0506
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12/16/2012 9:45:10 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/15/2012 4:15:16 PM, GOD-vs-ITSELF wrote:
At 12/15/2012 3:49:54 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 12/15/2012 12:28:06 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 12/15/2012 9:24:53 AM, medic0506 wrote:
The concept of an infinite past isn't a valid one when discussing God. He can exist within or without time, we are the ones who need time. Time didn't exist until God created it, which is why we say He's eternal rather expressing Him in mathematical form, as an infinite.

You cannot "Create" something without time. If you don't agree, I challenge you to define the word "Create" without invoking terms such as "Before" or "After" or other terms which imply the concept of linear time.

Create- bring into existence

Now, I do not pressume to know what you beleive, but what you have stated here is almost idenditcal to the type of arguments made concerning the scientifically explained beggining of the universe, which are generally laughed away as "absurd" and "you can't get something from nothing" by those who "robustly". argue in favor of God

Seems to me that it's a matter of God created it vs. it created itself.

See what is wrong with your biased model? You make the universe have to jump through a hoop that you exempt your god from. You punt the question with starting your view after the fact.

God did not need to be created, He has always existed. There never was "nothing". Your view requires that the universe brings itself into existence out of nothingness.

Thing should seem to you a matter of God created itself in some sort of super universe or it created itself nowhere and then created our universe vs our universe created itself

Again, you're assuming that God needed to be created. There was never a point where God didn't already exist.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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12/16/2012 10:06:22 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/15/2012 4:23:41 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 12/15/2012 3:49:54 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 12/15/2012 12:28:06 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 12/15/2012 9:24:53 AM, medic0506 wrote:
The concept of an infinite past isn't a valid one when discussing God. He can exist within or without time, we are the ones who need time. Time didn't exist until God created it, which is why we say He's eternal rather expressing Him in mathematical form, as an infinite.

You cannot "Create" something without time. If you don't agree, I challenge you to define the word "Create" without invoking terms such as "Before" or "After" or other terms which imply the concept of linear time.

Create- bring into existence


"Into" and "bring" denote time.

No, not unless you add context to them. There is no time qualifier there.

At one point in time there was nothing, at another point in time there was something. Not possible without time.

That statement makes no sense in light of the fact that time hadn't been created yet. You're trying to make God slave to time, as we are, but that's an invalid argument. God is not subject to time.

Now, I do not pressume to know what you beleive, but what you have stated here is almost idenditcal to the type of arguments made concerning the scientifically explained beggining of the universe, which are generally laughed away as "absurd" and "you can't get something from nothing" by those who "robustly". argue in favor of God

Seems to me that it's a matter of God created it vs. it created itself.

Yes, because it's stupid for anything to "exist for no reason".

... Except for God. God can exist for no reason.

Who says He exists "for no reason"??

This is the problem, it is contradictory if not plain intellectually dishonest to say that things cannot come into existance from nothing (the universe) and then say that something can come into existance from nothing (God.)

It's intellectually dishonest to believe that God could always exist, but not intellectually dishonest to teach kids that "nothing" can spontaneously generate an entire universe??
Talk about special pleading.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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12/16/2012 10:10:14 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/15/2012 8:08:56 PM, GOD-vs-ITSELF wrote:
At 12/15/2012 2:13:06 PM, Anti-atheist wrote:
God is outside of time so ur hole argunent sucks


If there is an outside of time, then time isn't real. You cant then say your god is any more before time than after or during time. So if you say god is before time, you also have to say god doesn't necessarily exist yet.

Again, you're trying to assert that time is the god in this equation, and that God must comply with your concept of time. If God created time, then He cannot be bound by it.
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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12/16/2012 11:33:08 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/16/2012 10:06:22 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 12/15/2012 4:23:41 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 12/15/2012 3:49:54 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 12/15/2012 12:28:06 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 12/15/2012 9:24:53 AM, medic0506 wrote:
The concept of an infinite past isn't a valid one when discussing God. He can exist within or without time, we are the ones who need time. Time didn't exist until God created it, which is why we say He's eternal rather expressing Him in mathematical form, as an infinite.

You cannot "Create" something without time. If you don't agree, I challenge you to define the word "Create" without invoking terms such as "Before" or "After" or other terms which imply the concept of linear time.

Create- bring into existence


"Into" and "bring" denote time.

No, not unless you add context to them. There is no time qualifier there.

The context of time is pretty explicit with creation. For something to be created you need it not to exist, and then to exist. Without time, this is not possible.

Without time isn't the same as our world with all the clocks stopped.

At one point in time there was nothing, at another point in time there was something. Not possible without time.

That statement makes no sense in light of the fact that time hadn't been created yet. You're trying to make God slave to time, as we are, but that's an invalid argument. God is not subject to time.

Now, I do not pressume to know what you beleive, but what you have stated here is almost idenditcal to the type of arguments made concerning the scientifically explained beggining of the universe, which are generally laughed away as "absurd" and "you can't get something from nothing" by those who "robustly". argue in favor of God

Seems to me that it's a matter of God created it vs. it created itself.

Yes, because it's stupid for anything to "exist for no reason".

... Except for God. God can exist for no reason.

Who says He exists "for no reason"??

I kinda meant 'without being created.'

However, going with the exact statement. If he exists for a reason, what reason is that exactly? How can he have a reason to exist when he wasn't created?


This is the problem, it is contradictory if not plain intellectually dishonest to say that things cannot come into existance from nothing (the universe) and then say that something can come into existance from nothing (God.)

It's intellectually dishonest to believe that God could always exist, but not intellectually dishonest to teach kids that "nothing" can spontaneously generate an entire universe??
Talk about special pleading.

Not at all. It is intellectually dishonest to shout about how 'things not being created' is so ridiculous (in your case using a horrible straw man that shows you a want of understanding about the subject), and then apply that VERY SAME property to god and then claim it all makes sense.
GOD-vs-ITSELF
Posts: 274
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12/16/2012 1:44:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/16/2012 9:45:10 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 12/15/2012 4:15:16 PM, GOD-vs-ITSELF wrote:
At 12/15/2012 3:49:54 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 12/15/2012 12:28:06 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 12/15/2012 9:24:53 AM, medic0506 wrote:
The concept of an infinite past isn't a valid one when discussing God. He can exist within or without time, we are the ones who need time. Time didn't exist until God created it, which is why we say He's eternal rather expressing Him in mathematical form, as an infinite.

You cannot "Create" something without time. If you don't agree, I challenge you to define the word "Create" without invoking terms such as "Before" or "After" or other terms which imply the concept of linear time.

Create- bring into existence

Now, I do not pressume to know what you beleive, but what you have stated here is almost idenditcal to the type of arguments made concerning the scientifically explained beggining of the universe, which are generally laughed away as "absurd" and "you can't get something from nothing" by those who "robustly". argue in favor of God

Seems to me that it's a matter of God created it vs. it created itself.

See what is wrong with your biased model? You make the universe have to jump through a hoop that you exempt your god from. You punt the question with starting your view after the fact.

God did not need to be created, He has always existed. There never was "nothing". Your view requires that the universe brings itself into existence out of nothingness.

Well if your saying god can exist inside and outside of time so can the universe. If there was an outside of time then time all time is an illusion and everything always existed in this timeless place and god couldn't have created anything.

Thing should seem to you a matter of God created itself in some sort of super universe or it created itself nowhere and then created our universe vs our universe created itself

Again, you're assuming that God needed to be created. There was never a point where God didn't already exist.

If the creator doesn't have a beginning then it still hasn't began. God Doesn't Exist Yet. I don't know why you have to be so intellectually dishonest about the fact that god would just have a mysterious beginning much like how the universe seems to have always existed.
If You Believe In Free Will, Then Don't Picture A Hippo For One Minute. Starting NOW
Cometflash
Posts: 126
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12/16/2012 2:07:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
All your questions and assumptions comes from a human mind. Just because we don't see a way, does not mean one does not exist.
You are asking questions that a human might not be able to answer, but a God could, since a God knows everything.
You are trying to understand what a God would know, and that is impossible, unless you become one yourself.
Asking a human a question, and the human not having an answer, does not mean a God cannot exist.
You cannot prove a God does not exist with human logic. We are bound by laws, and our thinking follow those laws, if a God exists he is bound by no law, therefore all limitations you see does not exists to a God.

You could get your answers by asking a God, but by asking a God there would be no need for such of questions, since you are talking with whom you question to exist.