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Divine Logic

s-anthony
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12/16/2012 10:31:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
That which I find funny is how religionists when backed into a corner say God is beyond mere logic. In other words, God doesn't have to make sense.

Yet, everything else in their lives must. For example, who would trust his, or her, doctor, if the procedure the doctor prescribed made absolutely no sense? Who would trust his, or her, retirement with an investment banker who purposed to do senseless things with his, or her, money? Who would trust a babysitter who was senseless in his, or her, actions? With our most important assets, we trust only those people who seem to have a good head on their shoulders; those who are logical and do not participate in senseless actions.

Yet, when it comes to trusting our immortal souls with a god, it doesn't have to be one who makes sense; in fact, our religion can be beyond logic. As long as our parents, cultures, and societies say it's true, that's all that matters, regardless of how far-fetched and illogical it sounds. There should be a sign posted in front of most houses of worship: "Brain not needed."
1Devilsadvocate
Posts: 1,518
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12/16/2012 10:46:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/16/2012 10:31:59 PM, s-anthony wrote:
That which I find funny is how religionists when backed into a corner say God is beyond mere logic. In other words, God doesn't have to make sense.

Yet, everything else in their lives must. For example, who would trust his, or her, doctor, if the procedure the doctor prescribed made absolutely no sense? Who would trust his, or her, retirement with an investment banker who purposed to do senseless things with his, or her, money? Who would trust a babysitter who was senseless in his, or her, actions? With our most important assets, we trust only those people who seem to have a good head on their shoulders; those who are logical and do not participate in senseless actions.

Yet, when it comes to trusting our immortal souls with a god, it doesn't have to be one who makes sense; in fact, our religion can be beyond logic. As long as our parents, cultures, and societies say it's true, that's all that matters, regardless of how far-fetched and illogical it sounds. There should be a sign posted in front of most houses of worship: "Brain not needed."

Strawman.

Beyond our comprehention =/= does not make sense.

Regarding the doctor analogy.
The exact opposite could be argued.
When you go to the doctor & he prescribes the medicine, do you have to understand exactly how it works in order to take it?
It might be preferable but by no means necessary.
Most of what we know is based on trust.
When you read any none fiction book, you are trusting the other people.
Most of the things we know, we learn from others, not personal experience.
I cannot write in English, because of the treacherous spelling. When I am reading, I only hear it and am unable to remember what the written word looks like."
"Albert Einstein

http://www.twainquotes.com... , http://thewritecorner.wordpress.com... , http://www.onlinecollegecourses.com...
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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12/16/2012 10:54:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/16/2012 10:31:59 PM, s-anthony wrote:
That which I find funny is how religionists when backed into a corner say God is beyond mere logic.

I haven't met many religionists who say that.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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12/16/2012 10:56:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/16/2012 10:31:59 PM, s-anthony wrote:
In other words, God doesn't have to make sense.

Yet, everything else in their lives must.

Except quantum physics! :-)
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
RationalMadman
Posts: 354
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12/16/2012 11:04:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/16/2012 10:31:59 PM, s-anthony wrote:
That which I find funny is how religionists when backed into a corner say God is beyond mere logic. In other words, God doesn't have to make sense.

Yet, everything else in their lives must. For example, who would trust his, or her, doctor, if the procedure the doctor prescribed made absolutely no sense? Who would trust his, or her, retirement with an investment banker who purposed to do senseless things with his, or her, money? Who would trust a babysitter who was senseless in his, or her, actions? With our most important assets, we trust only those people who seem to have a good head on their shoulders; those who are logical and do not participate in senseless actions.

Yet, when it comes to trusting our immortal souls with a god, it doesn't have to be one who makes sense; in fact, our religion can be beyond logic. As long as our parents, cultures, and societies say it's true, that's all that matters, regardless of how far-fetched and illogical it sounds. There should be a sign posted in front of most houses of worship: "Brain not needed."

Name me one action that doesn't require a little lack of logic to do?
The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

We didn't fight our way to the top of the food chain to be f***ng vegetarians.
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
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12/16/2012 11:23:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/16/2012 11:04:46 PM, RationalMadman wrote:
Name me one action that doesn't require a little lack of logic to do?

According to Aristotle, significant action is not possible without logic. For example, without the law of non-contradiction, there's no difference between eating pizza and not eating pizza.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
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12/16/2012 11:40:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/16/2012 10:31:59 PM, s-anthony wrote:
That which I find funny is how religionists when backed into a corner say God is beyond mere logic. In other words, God doesn't have to make sense.

Yet, everything else in their lives must. For example, who would trust his, or her, doctor, if the procedure the doctor prescribed made absolutely no sense? Who would trust his, or her, retirement with an investment banker who purposed to do senseless things with his, or her, money? Who would trust a babysitter who was senseless in his, or her, actions? With our most important assets, we trust only those people who seem to have a good head on their shoulders; those who are logical and do not participate in senseless actions.

Yet, when it comes to trusting our immortal souls with a god, it doesn't have to be one who makes sense; in fact, our religion can be beyond logic. As long as our parents, cultures, and societies say it's true, that's all that matters, regardless of how far-fetched and illogical it sounds. There should be a sign posted in front of most houses of worship: "Brain not needed."

Clearly we've never had a conversation.
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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12/17/2012 12:46:13 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/16/2012 10:46:32 PM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
At 12/16/2012 10:31:59 PM, s-anthony wrote:
That which I find funny is how religionists when backed into a corner say God is beyond mere logic. In other words, God doesn't have to make sense.

Yet, everything else in their lives must. For example, who would trust his, or her, doctor, if the procedure the doctor prescribed made absolutely no sense? Who would trust his, or her, retirement with an investment banker who purposed to do senseless things with his, or her, money? Who would trust a babysitter who was senseless in his, or her, actions? With our most important assets, we trust only those people who seem to have a good head on their shoulders; those who are logical and do not participate in senseless actions.

Yet, when it comes to trusting our immortal souls with a god, it doesn't have to be one who makes sense; in fact, our religion can be beyond logic. As long as our parents, cultures, and societies say it's true, that's all that matters, regardless of how far-fetched and illogical it sounds. There should be a sign posted in front of most houses of worship: "Brain not needed."

Strawman.

Beyond our comprehention =/= does not make sense.

Regarding the doctor analogy.
The exact opposite could be argued.
When you go to the doctor & he prescribes the medicine, do you have to understand exactly how it works in order to take it?
It might be preferable but by no means necessary.
Most of what we know is based on trust.
When you read any none fiction book, you are trusting the other people.
Most of the things we know, we learn from others, not personal experience.

Yet, we comprehend something, in as much as it makes sense. Saying something is beyond comprehension is saying it is beyond any kind of sense. In other words, one can't say, "This makes sense to me," if he, or she, can't comprehend it.

The example of taking a prescribed medication is answered by saying, you are not taking the drug because you haven't the slightest idea of how it works, dynamically, in the body but because of a past collective experience with Western medicine; most drugs approved by the FDA have a therapeutic effect, in a majority of users, even if they have adverse side effects. In other words, you don't sit on a chair because you don't know the ins and outs of chairmaking; you sit on a chair because of your past experience with chairs and their reliability, in most cases, to hold your weight; in other words, it makes sense.
Dogknox
Posts: 5,070
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12/17/2012 10:19:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
s-anthony you said.. Saying something is beyond comprehension is saying it is beyond any kind of sense. In other words, one can't say, "This makes sense to me," if he, or she, can't comprehend it.

What you forget is "Religion makes sense!"
Every man has a desire deep down to be united with God! The history of the world shows man always having a God or gods to worship, all the way back to the cave man!! Example: The North American Indian had their "Great White Spirit"; The Inca their gods etc

Jesus rose from the dead... All peoples ADDED to Jesus' resurrected body will also rise!
1 Peter 3:21
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also"not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

s-anthony All people "IN" the arc were saved by water, all people "IN" Jesus were saved by the waters of Baptism!

Baptism ADDS peoples to the body of the Resurrected Jesus! All peoples "IN" the resurrected body of Jesus can't die, LOGIC no man can die twice!

Dogknox
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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12/17/2012 11:32:02 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/16/2012 10:31:59 PM, s-anthony wrote:
That which I find funny is how religionists when backed into a corner say God is beyond mere logic. In other words, God doesn't have to make sense.

What exactly doesn't make sense about God?? If He was bound by all the laws that we are, then what would make Him worthy of the title of God?? Why would you expect a creator to be bound by His creation?? God makes perfect sense to me even though I may not fully understand everything about Him. If I could fully understand Him and how He does everything, I doubt that I'd see Him as someone worthy of worship.

Yet, everything else in their lives must.

We try to make sense of things but in reality there is very little that we fully understand.

For example, who would trust his, or her, doctor, if the procedure the doctor prescribed made absolutely no sense? Who would trust his, or her, retirement with an investment banker who purposed to do senseless things with his, or her, money? Who would trust a babysitter who was senseless in his, or her, actions? With our most important assets, we trust only those people who seem to have a good head on their shoulders; those who are logical and do not participate in senseless actions.

Yet, when it comes to trusting our immortal souls with a god, it doesn't have to be one who makes sense; in fact, our religion can be beyond logic. As long as our parents, cultures, and societies say it's true, that's all that matters, regardless of how far-fetched and illogical it sounds. There should be a sign posted in front of most houses of worship: "Brain not needed."

I would argue that alot of your theoretical science makes as much sense as God. The universe created itself from nothing, life created itself from a rock, and our ancestors were apes. Yeah, that all makes so much more sense...lol
s-anthony
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12/17/2012 12:01:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/17/2012 11:32:02 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 12/16/2012 10:31:59 PM, s-anthony wrote:
That which I find funny is how religionists when backed into a corner say God is beyond mere logic. In other words, God doesn't have to make sense.

What exactly doesn't make sense about God?? If He was bound by all the laws that we are, then what would make Him worthy of the title of God?? Why would you expect a creator to be bound by His creation?? God makes perfect sense to me even though I may not fully understand everything about Him. If I could fully understand Him and how He does everything, I doubt that I'd see Him as someone worthy of worship.

Why does God have to be something other than creation? Why can't God be the absolute, entirety of creation?

Yet, everything else in their lives must.

We try to make sense of things but in reality there is very little that we fully understand.

Yet, things make sense, in as much as we understand them.

For example, who would trust his, or her, doctor, if the procedure the doctor prescribed made absolutely no sense? Who would trust his, or her, retirement with an investment banker who purposed to do senseless things with his, or her, money? Who would trust a babysitter who was senseless in his, or her, actions? With our most important assets, we trust only those people who seem to have a good head on their shoulders; those who are logical and do not participate in senseless actions.


Yet, when it comes to trusting our immortal souls with a god, it doesn't have to be one who makes sense; in fact, our religion can be beyond logic. As long as our parents, cultures, and societies say it's true, that's all that matters, regardless of how far-fetched and illogical it sounds. There should be a sign posted in front of most houses of worship: "Brain not needed."

I would argue that alot of your theoretical science makes as much sense as God. The universe created itself from nothing, life created itself from a rock, and our ancestors were apes. Yeah, that all makes so much more sense...lol

Science attempts to answer the question, "How?". It doesn't posit a theory, without explaining how the theory works. Religion says God created the Universe and leaves the constituent completely in the dark; by saying how it was done is a complete mystery. Science attempts to educate and make sense of things. Religion says things don't have to make sense.... Just believe.
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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12/17/2012 12:02:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/17/2012 11:32:02 AM, medic0506 wrote:
At 12/16/2012 10:31:59 PM, s-anthony wrote:
That which I find funny is how religionists when backed into a corner say God is beyond mere logic. In other words, God doesn't have to make sense.

What exactly doesn't make sense about God?? If He was bound by all the laws that we are, then what would make Him worthy of the title of God?? Why would you expect a creator to be bound by His creation?? God makes perfect sense to me even though I may not fully understand everything about Him. If I could fully understand Him and how He does everything, I doubt that I'd see Him as someone worthy of worship.

There's a difference between not being self consistent, and not being understood. For example, the phrase "I always lie" is not self consistent, where as the phrase "I always flatringtartypops" is not understandable. The two shouldn't be confused.

Yet, everything else in their lives must.

We try to make sense of things but in reality there is very little that we fully understand.

Again, understanding != logical.

For example, who would trust his, or her, doctor, if the procedure the doctor prescribed made absolutely no sense? Who would trust his, or her, retirement with an investment banker who purposed to do senseless things with his, or her, money? Who would trust a babysitter who was senseless in his, or her, actions? With our most important assets, we trust only those people who seem to have a good head on their shoulders; those who are logical and do not participate in senseless actions.


Yet, when it comes to trusting our immortal souls with a god, it doesn't have to be one who makes sense; in fact, our religion can be beyond logic. As long as our parents, cultures, and societies say it's true, that's all that matters, regardless of how far-fetched and illogical it sounds. There should be a sign posted in front of most houses of worship: "Brain not needed."

I would argue that alot of your theoretical science makes as much sense as God. The universe created itself from nothing, life created itself from a rock, and our ancestors were apes. Yeah, that all makes so much more sense...lol

This is what you call a horrible straw man and a misrepresentation of theory. More importantly, you can measure things appearing out of nothing, and you can prove that things can be in more than one place at the same time, and one object can magically disappear and reappear on the other side of a solid barrier. The world is strange, and not easy to understand, but not having a "beginning" in the traditional sense wouldn't be the most weird thing we have learned about the universe.
Cometflash
Posts: 126
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12/17/2012 1:45:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/16/2012 10:31:59 PM, s-anthony wrote:
That which I find funny is how religionists when backed into a corner say God is beyond mere logic. In other words, God doesn't have to make sense.

Yet, everything else in their lives must. For example, who would trust his, or her, doctor, if the procedure the doctor prescribed made absolutely no sense? Who would trust his, or her, retirement with an investment banker who purposed to do senseless things with his, or her, money? Who would trust a babysitter who was senseless in his, or her, actions? With our most important assets, we trust only those people who seem to have a good head on their shoulders; those who are logical and do not participate in senseless actions.

Yet, when it comes to trusting our immortal souls with a god, it doesn't have to be one who makes sense; in fact, our religion can be beyond logic. As long as our parents, cultures, and societies say it's true, that's all that matters, regardless of how far-fetched and illogical it sounds. There should be a sign posted in front of most houses of worship: "Brain not needed."

Things that make sense is not always true, things that don't make sense is not always false.

Look at our planet for example. It makes very much sense to believe it is flat, and so we believe to be for so long. It makes not much sense that it is almost round, but yet is what it is.
1Devilsadvocate
Posts: 1,518
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12/17/2012 2:34:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/17/2012 12:46:13 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 12/16/2012 10:46:32 PM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
At 12/16/2012 10:31:59 PM, s-anthony wrote:
That which I find funny is how religionists when backed into a corner say God is beyond mere logic. In other words, God doesn't have to make sense.

Yet, everything else in their lives must. For example, who would trust his, or her, doctor, if the procedure the doctor prescribed made absolutely no sense? Who would trust his, or her, retirement with an investment banker who purposed to do senseless things with his, or her, money? Who would trust a babysitter who was senseless in his, or her, actions? With our most important assets, we trust only those people who seem to have a good head on their shoulders; those who are logical and do not participate in senseless actions.

Yet, when it comes to trusting our immortal souls with a god, it doesn't have to be one who makes sense; in fact, our religion can be beyond logic. As long as our parents, cultures, and societies say it's true, that's all that matters, regardless of how far-fetched and illogical it sounds. There should be a sign posted in front of most houses of worship: "Brain not needed."

Strawman.

Beyond our comprehention =/= does not make sense.

Regarding the doctor analogy.
The exact opposite could be argued.
When you go to the doctor & he prescribes the medicine, do you have to understand exactly how it works in order to take it?
It might be preferable but by no means necessary.
Most of what we know is based on trust.
When you read any none fiction book, you are trusting the other people.
Most of the things we know, we learn from others, not personal experience.

Yet, we comprehend something, in as much as it makes sense. Saying something is beyond comprehension is saying it is beyond any kind of sense. In other words, one can't say, "This makes sense to me," if he, or she, can't comprehend it.

The example of taking a prescribed medication is answered by saying, you are not taking the drug because you haven't the slightest idea of how it works, dynamically, in the body but because of a past collective experience with Western medicine; most drugs approved by the FDA have a therapeutic effect, in a majority of users, even if they have adverse side effects. In other words, you don't sit on a chair because you don't know the ins and outs of chairmaking; you sit on a chair because of your past experience with chairs and their reliability, in most cases, to hold your weight; in other words, it makes sense.

I never heard anyone say, "This makes sense to me", vis a vis god.
As in I understand who god is.

All we know about God is a) that he exists & b) what he does vis a vis our world/ his effects.
We cannot know who/what he is, we cannot comprehend his full nature.

Some people ask, if you don't know who/what god is, how can you believe he exists?

The truth of the matter is that we do this all the time, for example

Stars: until relatively recently humanity didn't have a clue what a star is or how it produces light. The concept of nuclear fusion etc. is relatively new.
So they didn't know what it is, but they knew that it existed & could relate/ comprehend it's affects.

A better example is light:
For 1000's of years humanity has been trying to figure out what light is:
http://en.wikipedia.org...
& we still don't have a clear idea of what light is.
But we know that it exists, we know what it does, etc.

Sound: for thousands of years humanity did not know what sound is (mechanical wave). But we knew that it exists & that it works.

objects: Until the invention of the microscope, people thought that - for example - a piece of wood is one solid object made of "wood". We now know that a piece of wood is actually mostly empty space, and is made of small components that are not wood which combine in a specific way to create wood. So they didn't know what wood is but they new that it existed, & could use it.

Qualia/ conscience/mind: Even if we don't really know what the mind is, can't describe/define it. We can still say that it exists.

I'm not sure what your saying now with the doctor analogy, at 1st you seemed to be using it to show that we don't believe in things if they don't make sense, so too God.
I said even though we don't understand medicine, we can still rely on it for other reasons.
Now your saying it makes sense because it worked in the past.
Your using the term "make sense" in 2 different ways. With regard to god you use it in terms of understanding who/what he is. With medicine your using "does it make sense" in terms of is it rational to use it.
I cannot write in English, because of the treacherous spelling. When I am reading, I only hear it and am unable to remember what the written word looks like."
"Albert Einstein

http://www.twainquotes.com... , http://thewritecorner.wordpress.com... , http://www.onlinecollegecourses.com...
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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12/17/2012 11:47:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/17/2012 2:34:43 PM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
Some people ask, if you don't know who/what god is, how can you believe he exists?

The truth of the matter is that we do this all the time, for example

Stars: until relatively recently humanity didn't have a clue what a star is or how it produces light. The concept of nuclear fusion etc. is relatively new.
So they didn't know what it is, but they knew that it existed & could relate/ comprehend it's affects.

A better example is light:
For 1000's of years humanity has been trying to figure out what light is:
http://en.wikipedia.org...
& we still don't have a clear idea of what light is.
But we know that it exists, we know what it does, etc.

Sound: for thousands of years humanity did not know what sound is (mechanical wave). But we knew that it exists & that it works.

objects: Until the invention of the microscope, people thought that - for example - a piece of wood is one solid object made of "wood". We now know that a piece of wood is actually mostly empty space, and is made of small components that are not wood which combine in a specific way to create wood. So they didn't know what wood is but they new that it existed, & could use it.

Qualia/ conscience/mind: Even if we don't really know what the mind is, can't describe/define it. We can still say that it exists.

I'm not sure what your saying now with the doctor analogy, at 1st you seemed to be using it to show that we don't believe in things if they don't make sense, so too God.
I said even though we don't understand medicine, we can still rely on it for other reasons.
Now your saying it makes sense because it worked in the past.
Your using the term "make sense" in 2 different ways. With regard to god you use it in terms of understanding who/what he is. With medicine your using "does it make sense" in terms of is it rational to use it.

Again, we can only know these things, in as much as they make sense to us. Stars, light, sound, wood, and the mind all have hidden secrets to uncover; it is not those parts we've yet to discover that make sense to us but the parts with which we are familiar.

For illustration, think of something you know to exist; and, describe it, nonsensically; then, let us guess, as to that which you are speaking.
DanielChristopherBlowes
Posts: 1,066
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12/18/2012 2:13:46 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/16/2012 10:31:59 PM, s-anthony wrote:
That which I find funny is how religionists when backed into a corner say God is beyond mere logic. In other words, God doesn't have to make sense.

Yet, everything else in their lives must. For example, who would trust his, or her, doctor, if the procedure the doctor prescribed made absolutely no sense? Who would trust his, or her, retirement with an investment banker who purposed to do senseless things with his, or her, money? Who would trust a babysitter who was senseless in his, or her, actions? With our most important assets, we trust only those people who seem to have a good head on their shoulders; those who are logical and do not participate in senseless actions.

Yet, when it comes to trusting our immortal souls with a god, it doesn't have to be one who makes sense; in fact, our religion can be beyond logic. As long as our parents, cultures, and societies say it's true, that's all that matters, regardless of how far-fetched and illogical it sounds. There should be a sign posted in front of most houses of worship: "Brain not needed."

No, God IS logical, WE are not, but Christianity is a process of uncovering truth; jumping ahead to where you're not yet ready is only helpful if you wish not to believe or to attack that which you fear..
Everyone on the side of Truth listens to Me. (Jesus Christ)
s-anthony
Posts: 2,582
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12/18/2012 10:41:21 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/18/2012 2:13:46 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
No, God IS logical, WE are not, but Christianity is a process of uncovering truth; jumping ahead to where you're not yet ready is only helpful if you wish not to believe or to attack that which you fear..

So, now, you're saying a logical god created an illogical universe?
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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12/18/2012 11:43:45 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/18/2012 2:13:46 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 12/16/2012 10:31:59 PM, s-anthony wrote:
That which I find funny is how religionists when backed into a corner say God is beyond mere logic. In other words, God doesn't have to make sense.

Yet, everything else in their lives must. For example, who would trust his, or her, doctor, if the procedure the doctor prescribed made absolutely no sense? Who would trust his, or her, retirement with an investment banker who purposed to do senseless things with his, or her, money? Who would trust a babysitter who was senseless in his, or her, actions? With our most important assets, we trust only those people who seem to have a good head on their shoulders; those who are logical and do not participate in senseless actions.

Yet, when it comes to trusting our immortal souls with a god, it doesn't have to be one who makes sense; in fact, our religion can be beyond logic. As long as our parents, cultures, and societies say it's true, that's all that matters, regardless of how far-fetched and illogical it sounds. There should be a sign posted in front of most houses of worship: "Brain not needed."

No, God IS logical, WE are not, but Christianity is a process of uncovering truth; jumping ahead to where you're not yet ready is only helpful if you wish not to believe or to attack that which you fear..

If Your God is:

a) Omnipresent: Everywhere at once
B) Can't be in the presence of Sin.

Then he is not logical (Non self consistent).

If Your God is:

a) Omnipotent,
b) Infinitely Just
c) Infinitely Loving
d) Has the concept of eternal Hell.
e) Creates a world where it is logically reasonable for people not to beleive he exists.

Then again, your god is not logical, or self-consistent.
Df0512
Posts: 966
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12/18/2012 11:53:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/16/2012 10:31:59 PM, s-anthony wrote:
That which I find funny is how religionists when backed into a corner say God is beyond mere logic. In other words, God doesn't have to make sense.

Yet, everything else in their lives must. For example, who would trust his, or her, doctor, if the procedure the doctor prescribed made absolutely no sense? Who would trust his, or her, retirement with an investment banker who purposed to do senseless things with his, or her, money? Who would trust a babysitter who was senseless in his, or her, actions? With our most important assets, we trust only those people who seem to have a good head on their shoulders; those who are logical and do not participate in senseless actions.

Yet, when it comes to trusting our immortal souls with a god, it doesn't have to be one who makes sense; in fact, our religion can be beyond logic. As long as our parents, cultures, and societies say it's true, that's all that matters, regardless of how far-fetched and illogical it sounds. There should be a sign posted in front of most houses of worship: "Brain not needed."

First of all you should be respectful of other beliefs, regardless of how you feel about it.

There should be a sign posted in front of most houses of worship: "Brain not
needed."


There has been , and still is, brilliant man and woman who believed in their religion until there dying day. So that statement makes you seem less intelligent if anything.

You will never be able to understand unless you can first rid yourself of you own bias opinions. Your filtering yourself and you will never "get it" that way. When I say understand/get it, I don't mean agree. In fact I agree with your logic, but I believe I have a good understanding as to why people believe it. Even tho I myself do not believe it.

First you can not compare God to a doctor. A doctor you can see and touch and can only fix things that exist in this life. Well the average Christian isn't worried about this life as much as they are worried about the next one. God has power over that life and this one. If you knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that he existed wouldnt you worship him. Especially if he told u to. Faith is the evidence of things unseen, so as long as there is faith logic is not required. Faith is the Christian fail safe. It can not be defeated.

And no it doesnt make sense. But that is kinda the point of god. He can not be quantified in a way we can understand. (Keep in mind i dont believe any of this lol) He is supernatural. And I think that upset some atheist because they know that there isnt anyway to dispute something thats supernatural. So it not making sense is subjective. You cant assume if it doesnt make sense to you it makes sense to no one. Believe me it makes sense to plenty....not me tho lol.
DanielChristopherBlowes
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12/18/2012 12:28:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/18/2012 10:41:21 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 12/18/2012 2:13:46 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
No, God IS logical, WE are not, but Christianity is a process of uncovering truth; jumping ahead to where you're not yet ready is only helpful if you wish not to believe or to attack that which you fear..

So, now, you're saying a logical god created an illogical universe?

No, He gave us a choice to reject Him and His logic for ourselves and our 'logic'..
Everyone on the side of Truth listens to Me. (Jesus Christ)
DanielChristopherBlowes
Posts: 1,066
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12/18/2012 12:34:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/18/2012 11:43:45 AM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 12/18/2012 2:13:46 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 12/16/2012 10:31:59 PM, s-anthony wrote:
That which I find funny is how religionists when backed into a corner say God is beyond mere logic. In other words, God doesn't have to make sense.

Yet, everything else in their lives must. For example, who would trust his, or her, doctor, if the procedure the doctor prescribed made absolutely no sense? Who would trust his, or her, retirement with an investment banker who purposed to do senseless things with his, or her, money? Who would trust a babysitter who was senseless in his, or her, actions? With our most important assets, we trust only those people who seem to have a good head on their shoulders; those who are logical and do not participate in senseless actions.

Yet, when it comes to trusting our immortal souls with a god, it doesn't have to be one who makes sense; in fact, our religion can be beyond logic. As long as our parents, cultures, and societies say it's true, that's all that matters, regardless of how far-fetched and illogical it sounds. There should be a sign posted in front of most houses of worship: "Brain not needed."

No, God IS logical, WE are not, but Christianity is a process of uncovering truth; jumping ahead to where you're not yet ready is only helpful if you wish not to believe or to attack that which you fear..

If Your God is:

a) Omnipresent: Everywhere at once
B) Can't be in the presence of Sin.

Then he is not logical (Non self consistent).

Only to your logic..

If Sin is the absence of God then it is nowhere; hell is a non place for non people. That my limited understanding cannot comprehend this matters not, to me.

If Your God is:

a) Omnipotent,
b) Infinitely Just
c) Infinitely Loving
d) Has the concept of eternal Hell.
e) Creates a world where it is logically reasonable for people not to beleive he exists.

Then again, your god is not logical, or self-consistent.

Or you're not.

God gives us a choice to reject Him.

He is eternal peace.

If we choose to reject Him, we reject eternal peace.

Even death, annihilation, would be eternal peace.

Hence, for God to be just, true, consistent, logical even, He must give you eternal torment.

You appear to be several thousand fathoms out of you depth..
Everyone on the side of Truth listens to Me. (Jesus Christ)
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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12/18/2012 12:36:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/18/2012 12:28:01 PM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 12/18/2012 10:41:21 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 12/18/2012 2:13:46 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
No, God IS logical, WE are not, but Christianity is a process of uncovering truth; jumping ahead to where you're not yet ready is only helpful if you wish not to believe or to attack that which you fear..

So, now, you're saying a logical god created an illogical universe?

No, He gave us a choice to reject Him and His logic for ourselves and our 'logic'..

Oh, this old rubbish.

There are, and have been billions upon bilions of people who have been born and have not been exposed to Christianity, or have been brought up in a different religion that do not have a choice.

It's a typical train of thought I have seen from people trying to reconcile a loving God with the concept of Hell and coming up with something even more inconsistent and illogical.
DanielChristopherBlowes
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12/18/2012 12:44:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/18/2012 12:36:59 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 12/18/2012 12:28:01 PM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 12/18/2012 10:41:21 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 12/18/2012 2:13:46 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
No, God IS logical, WE are not, but Christianity is a process of uncovering truth; jumping ahead to where you're not yet ready is only helpful if you wish not to believe or to attack that which you fear..

So, now, you're saying a logical god created an illogical universe?

No, He gave us a choice to reject Him and His logic for ourselves and our 'logic'..

Oh, this old rubbish.

There are, and have been billions upon bilions of people who have been born and have not been exposed to Christianity, or have been brought up in a different religion that do not have a choice.

Let God worry about them, you should worry about how you deal with this gospel I'm presenting you with..

It's a typical train of thought I have seen from people trying to reconcile a loving God with the concept of Hell and coming up with something even more inconsistent and illogical.

It's perfectly logical, God gives you what you want; He is peace, without Him you must have torment.

You may say, why can't He give me a happy delusion? He has, you're living in it..
Everyone on the side of Truth listens to Me. (Jesus Christ)
Df0512
Posts: 966
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12/18/2012 12:46:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/18/2012 12:44:23 PM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 12/18/2012 12:36:59 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 12/18/2012 12:28:01 PM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 12/18/2012 10:41:21 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 12/18/2012 2:13:46 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
No, God IS logical, WE are not, but Christianity is a process of uncovering truth; jumping ahead to where you're not yet ready is only helpful if you wish not to believe or to attack that which you fear..

So, now, you're saying a logical god created an illogical universe?

No, He gave us a choice to reject Him and His logic for ourselves and our 'logic'..

Oh, this old rubbish.

There are, and have been billions upon bilions of people who have been born and have not been exposed to Christianity, or have been brought up in a different religion that do not have a choice.

Let God worry about them, you should worry about how you deal with this gospel I'm presenting you with..

It's a typical train of thought I have seen from people trying to reconcile a loving God with the concept of Hell and coming up with something even more inconsistent and illogical.

It's perfectly logical, God gives you what you want; He is peace, without Him you must have torment.

You may say, why can't He give me a happy delusion? He has, you're living in it..

So happiness without god is a delusion?
DanielChristopherBlowes
Posts: 1,066
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12/18/2012 12:50:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/18/2012 12:46:18 PM, Df0512 wrote:
At 12/18/2012 12:44:23 PM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 12/18/2012 12:36:59 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 12/18/2012 12:28:01 PM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 12/18/2012 10:41:21 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 12/18/2012 2:13:46 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
No, God IS logical, WE are not, but Christianity is a process of uncovering truth; jumping ahead to where you're not yet ready is only helpful if you wish not to believe or to attack that which you fear..

So, now, you're saying a logical god created an illogical universe?

No, He gave us a choice to reject Him and His logic for ourselves and our 'logic'..

Oh, this old rubbish.

There are, and have been billions upon bilions of people who have been born and have not been exposed to Christianity, or have been brought up in a different religion that do not have a choice.

Let God worry about them, you should worry about how you deal with this gospel I'm presenting you with..

It's a typical train of thought I have seen from people trying to reconcile a loving God with the concept of Hell and coming up with something even more inconsistent and illogical.

It's perfectly logical, God gives you what you want; He is peace, without Him you must have torment.

You may say, why can't He give me a happy delusion? He has, you're living in it..

So happiness without god is a delusion?

Ultimately, yes.. Because everything apart from Him is temporal.. Our money, our things, our families, everything will perish..

Jesus is the true Ark, a spiritual life boat, if we put our trust and hope in Him then we are in Him and saved..
Everyone on the side of Truth listens to Me. (Jesus Christ)
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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12/18/2012 12:53:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/18/2012 12:44:23 PM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 12/18/2012 12:36:59 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 12/18/2012 12:28:01 PM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 12/18/2012 10:41:21 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 12/18/2012 2:13:46 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
No, God IS logical, WE are not, but Christianity is a process of uncovering truth; jumping ahead to where you're not yet ready is only helpful if you wish not to believe or to attack that which you fear..

So, now, you're saying a logical god created an illogical universe?

No, He gave us a choice to reject Him and His logic for ourselves and our 'logic'..

Oh, this old rubbish.

There are, and have been billions upon bilions of people who have been born and have not been exposed to Christianity, or have been brought up in a different religion that do not have a choice.

Let God worry about them, you should worry about how you deal with this gospel I'm presenting you with..

It's a typical train of thought I have seen from people trying to reconcile a loving God with the concept of Hell and coming up with something even more inconsistent and illogical.

It's perfectly logical, God gives you what you want; He is peace, without Him you must have torment.

You may say, why can't He give me a happy delusion? He has, you're living in it..

You have made it into a "choice" because this makes you feel better.

The billions of people who do not beleive don't really have a concious choice. People generally continue to beleive what they were taught when they were growing up.

It would be SO much easier for me if I beleived in God, but I don't. I can't chose to beleive in God.
DanielChristopherBlowes
Posts: 1,066
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12/18/2012 12:56:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/18/2012 12:53:39 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 12/18/2012 12:44:23 PM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 12/18/2012 12:36:59 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 12/18/2012 12:28:01 PM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 12/18/2012 10:41:21 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 12/18/2012 2:13:46 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
No, God IS logical, WE are not, but Christianity is a process of uncovering truth; jumping ahead to where you're not yet ready is only helpful if you wish not to believe or to attack that which you fear..

So, now, you're saying a logical god created an illogical universe?

No, He gave us a choice to reject Him and His logic for ourselves and our 'logic'..

Oh, this old rubbish.

There are, and have been billions upon bilions of people who have been born and have not been exposed to Christianity, or have been brought up in a different religion that do not have a choice.

Let God worry about them, you should worry about how you deal with this gospel I'm presenting you with..

It's a typical train of thought I have seen from people trying to reconcile a loving God with the concept of Hell and coming up with something even more inconsistent and illogical.

It's perfectly logical, God gives you what you want; He is peace, without Him you must have torment.

You may say, why can't He give me a happy delusion? He has, you're living in it..

You have made it into a "choice" because this makes you feel better.

The billions of people who do not beleive don't really have a concious choice. People generally continue to beleive what they were taught when they were growing up.

It would be SO much easier for me if I beleived in God, but I don't. I can't chose to beleive in God.

In some ways it easier, others harder..

The Bible teaches that we all have an innate knowledge of God, but that we suppress it in order to please ourselves..
Everyone on the side of Truth listens to Me. (Jesus Christ)
Df0512
Posts: 966
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12/18/2012 1:00:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/18/2012 12:50:21 PM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 12/18/2012 12:46:18 PM, Df0512 wrote:
At 12/18/2012 12:44:23 PM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 12/18/2012 12:36:59 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 12/18/2012 12:28:01 PM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 12/18/2012 10:41:21 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 12/18/2012 2:13:46 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
No, God IS logical, WE are not, but Christianity is a process of uncovering truth; jumping ahead to where you're not yet ready is only helpful if you wish not to believe or to attack that which you fear..

So, now, you're saying a logical god created an illogical universe?

No, He gave us a choice to reject Him and His logic for ourselves and our 'logic'..

Oh, this old rubbish.

There are, and have been billions upon bilions of people who have been born and have not been exposed to Christianity, or have been brought up in a different religion that do not have a choice.

Let God worry about them, you should worry about how you deal with this gospel I'm presenting you with..

It's a typical train of thought I have seen from people trying to reconcile a loving God with the concept of Hell and coming up with something even more inconsistent and illogical.

It's perfectly logical, God gives you what you want; He is peace, without Him you must have torment.

You may say, why can't He give me a happy delusion? He has, you're living in it..

So happiness without god is a delusion?

Ultimately, yes.. Because everything apart from Him is temporal.. Our money, our things, our families, everything will perish..

Jesus is the true Ark, a spiritual life boat, if we put our trust and hope in Him then we are in Him and saved..

So my marrige with my wife, which brings some sort of happiness I suppose lol..sex, the time I spend with my son, all that is delusionary because I dont believe in GOD? MAn my life sucks lol. Who would want to praise a god that give us free will just to tell us we can only be happy by listening to him? That seems liek a cruel joke.
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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12/18/2012 1:06:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/18/2012 12:56:56 PM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 12/18/2012 12:53:39 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 12/18/2012 12:44:23 PM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 12/18/2012 12:36:59 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 12/18/2012 12:28:01 PM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
At 12/18/2012 10:41:21 AM, s-anthony wrote:
At 12/18/2012 2:13:46 AM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
No, God IS logical, WE are not, but Christianity is a process of uncovering truth; jumping ahead to where you're not yet ready is only helpful if you wish not to believe or to attack that which you fear..

So, now, you're saying a logical god created an illogical universe?

No, He gave us a choice to reject Him and His logic for ourselves and our 'logic'..

Oh, this old rubbish.

There are, and have been billions upon bilions of people who have been born and have not been exposed to Christianity, or have been brought up in a different religion that do not have a choice.

Let God worry about them, you should worry about how you deal with this gospel I'm presenting you with..

It's a typical train of thought I have seen from people trying to reconcile a loving God with the concept of Hell and coming up with something even more inconsistent and illogical.

It's perfectly logical, God gives you what you want; He is peace, without Him you must have torment.

You may say, why can't He give me a happy delusion? He has, you're living in it..

You have made it into a "choice" because this makes you feel better.

The billions of people who do not beleive don't really have a concious choice. People generally continue to beleive what they were taught when they were growing up.

It would be SO much easier for me if I beleived in God, but I don't. I can't chose to beleive in God.

In some ways it easier, others harder..

The Bible teaches that we all have an innate knowledge of God, but that we suppress it in order to please ourselves..

Unfortunately, this is what you have to tell yourself so as to maintain the illusion that what you beleive makes sense.

But it has no basis in reality.
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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12/18/2012 1:37:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/18/2012 12:34:33 PM, DanielChristopherBlowes wrote:
If Sin is the absence of God then it is nowhere; hell is a non place for non people.

That's not even a coherent statement brah.