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Religion is an institution of social control

frozen_eclipse
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12/17/2012 5:49:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I believe at some point people made these religions up or believed that when they saw something new they did.nt understand they called them gods. Eventually people made up there books and used religion for social control. A perfect example of the use of religion for social control is the mormons vs proposistion 8. I don't think religions should be involved in politics at all. I also don't think socity will reach it's full potential untill we figure out a way tostop religions form controlling our society.
1Devilsadvocate
Posts: 1,518
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12/17/2012 6:01:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/17/2012 5:49:56 PM, frozen_eclipse wrote:
I believe at some point people made these religions up or believed that when they saw something new they did.nt understand they called them gods. Eventually people made up there books and used religion for social control. A perfect example of the use of religion for social control is the mormons vs proposistion 8. I don't think religions should be involved in politics at all. I also don't think socity will reach it's full potential untill we figure out a way tostop religions form controlling our society.

Whats an example of "religion controlling society"?
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Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
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12/17/2012 6:06:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/17/2012 5:49:56 PM, frozen_eclipse wrote:
I believe at some point people made these religions up or believed that when they saw something new they did.nt understand they called them gods. Eventually people made up there books and used religion for social control. A perfect example of the use of religion for social control is the mormons vs proposistion 8. I don't think religions should be involved in politics at all. I also don't think socity will reach it's full potential untill we figure out a way tostop religions form controlling our society.

True. Now how does this disprove theism?
EvanK
Posts: 599
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12/17/2012 6:13:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/17/2012 5:49:56 PM, frozen_eclipse wrote:
I believe at some point people made these religions up or believed that when they saw something new they did.nt understand they called them gods. Eventually people made up there books and used religion for social control. A perfect example of the use of religion for social control is the mormons vs proposistion 8. I don't think religions should be involved in politics at all. I also don't think socity will reach it's full potential untill we figure out a way tostop religions form controlling our society.

I'm not arguing against religion, but I did find it interesting when reading about the ancient Mesopotamians (Spelt right?), and how they used religion for social control. The high priests typically had the most power, and they taught that all of the different Mesopotamian cities had their own Gods, and that the Gods wanted the people to work in the irrigation systems and such. They taught that when crops were good and the Nile flooded enough, it was God rewarding them, and when there was droughts and crops were bad it was punishment. Cities would go to war to conquer others because that's what the Gods "wanted". That's what I remember from it anyway. Not knocking all religion, but I do find it interesting, because it worked pretty well for its time.
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
Apeiron
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12/17/2012 6:23:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
... Someone's been watching too much History channel, we're among conspiracy theorists!

Look if Christianity, for example, was concocted solely for social control, why then did the man Christ and his followers spring out of a major socio-political controversy? And then continue for hundreds of years? .. Sounds like major governmental control to me!

;-)
Apeiron
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12/17/2012 6:24:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Christ was one of the biggest anarchists in history! Nearly brought war upon Jerusalem... in fact a few years after his death there WAS a war!
socialpinko
Posts: 10,458
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12/17/2012 6:27:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Genetic fallacy. I could totes say you're right about that (it could be write in some historical contingencies sure) but maintain consistently that theism is still correct.
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EvanK
Posts: 599
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12/17/2012 6:29:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/17/2012 6:24:57 PM, Apeiron wrote:
Christ was one of the biggest anarchists in history! Nearly brought war upon Jerusalem... in fact a few years after his death there WAS a war!

I agree with that.
The problem with socialism is that, sooner or later, you run out of people's money."_Margaret Thatcher

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."_Thomas Jefferson

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."_Thomas Jefferson

"It is easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled."-Mark Twain
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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12/17/2012 6:30:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/17/2012 5:49:56 PM, frozen_eclipse wrote:
I believe at some point people made these religions up or believed that when they saw something new they did.nt understand they called them gods. Eventually people made up there books and used religion for social control. A perfect example of the use of religion for social control is the mormons vs proposistion 8. I don't think religions should be involved in politics at all. I also don't think socity will reach it's full potential untill we figure out a way tostop religions form controlling our society.

You overestimate people far too much.

It's like saying that fiat money exists because someone, at some point, consciously said "let's create a system where we attribute value to a piece of paper so we can control the world through inflationary spending and a federal reserve."

No, it started with people trading chunks of metal that they believed had inherent value (gold). Then, people started using notes as a substitute to carrying tons of gold (currency) and stashing the gold in a single spot which then had more gold at any one time than it needed (fractional banking).

Then, when the value of gold became decoupled with the currency, you have the appearance of fiat currency subject to much more extreme inflationary tendencies than under a gold standard. But no on decides to turn to fiat money in order to better control people. They do it because it is practical in the particular time and context.
Wnope
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12/17/2012 6:37:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/17/2012 6:30:22 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 12/17/2012 5:49:56 PM, frozen_eclipse wrote:
I believe at some point people made these religions up or believed that when they saw something new they did.nt understand they called them gods. Eventually people made up there books and used religion for social control. A perfect example of the use of religion for social control is the mormons vs proposistion 8. I don't think religions should be involved in politics at all. I also don't think socity will reach it's full potential untill we figure out a way tostop religions form controlling our society.

You overestimate people far too much.

It's like saying that fiat money exists because someone, at some point, consciously said "let's create a system where we attribute value to a piece of paper so we can control the world through inflationary spending and a federal reserve."

No, it started with people trading chunks of metal that they believed had inherent value (gold). Then, people started using notes as a substitute to carrying tons of gold (currency) and stashing the gold in a single spot which then had more gold at any one time than it needed (fractional banking).

Then, when the value of gold became decoupled with the currency, you have the appearance of fiat currency subject to much more extreme inflationary tendencies than under a gold standard. But no on decides to turn to fiat money in order to better control people. They do it because it is practical in the particular time and context.

Although I will say, when you read, say, Hindu scriptures, it becomes REALLLLLLLY obvious that the priest class were looking out for themselves when they wrote things up. It gets kinda hilarious at points. It'd be like if the Bible said "say your prayers, and make sure to give money to the priest who you're saying prayers with." Then again, Hindu scriptures is also MUCH more philosophically and analytically rigorous than the Bible.
Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
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12/17/2012 6:40:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/17/2012 6:37:30 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 12/17/2012 6:30:22 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 12/17/2012 5:49:56 PM, frozen_eclipse wrote:
I believe at some point people made these religions up or believed that when they saw something new they did.nt understand they called them gods. Eventually people made up there books and used religion for social control. A perfect example of the use of religion for social control is the mormons vs proposistion 8. I don't think religions should be involved in politics at all. I also don't think socity will reach it's full potential untill we figure out a way tostop religions form controlling our society.

You overestimate people far too much.

It's like saying that fiat money exists because someone, at some point, consciously said "let's create a system where we attribute value to a piece of paper so we can control the world through inflationary spending and a federal reserve."

No, it started with people trading chunks of metal that they believed had inherent value (gold). Then, people started using notes as a substitute to carrying tons of gold (currency) and stashing the gold in a single spot which then had more gold at any one time than it needed (fractional banking).

Then, when the value of gold became decoupled with the currency, you have the appearance of fiat currency subject to much more extreme inflationary tendencies than under a gold standard. But no on decides to turn to fiat money in order to better control people. They do it because it is practical in the particular time and context.

Although I will say, when you read, say, Hindu scriptures, it becomes REALLLLLLLY obvious that the priest class were looking out for themselves when they wrote things up. It gets kinda hilarious at points. It'd be like if the Bible said "say your prayers, and make sure to give money to the priest who you're saying prayers with." Then again, Hindu scriptures is also MUCH more philosophically and analytically rigorous than the Bible.

Oh?
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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12/17/2012 6:46:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/17/2012 6:40:38 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 12/17/2012 6:37:30 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 12/17/2012 6:30:22 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 12/17/2012 5:49:56 PM, frozen_eclipse wrote:
I believe at some point people made these religions up or believed that when they saw something new they did.nt understand they called them gods. Eventually people made up there books and used religion for social control. A perfect example of the use of religion for social control is the mormons vs proposistion 8. I don't think religions should be involved in politics at all. I also don't think socity will reach it's full potential untill we figure out a way tostop religions form controlling our society.

You overestimate people far too much.

It's like saying that fiat money exists because someone, at some point, consciously said "let's create a system where we attribute value to a piece of paper so we can control the world through inflationary spending and a federal reserve."

No, it started with people trading chunks of metal that they believed had inherent value (gold). Then, people started using notes as a substitute to carrying tons of gold (currency) and stashing the gold in a single spot which then had more gold at any one time than it needed (fractional banking).

Then, when the value of gold became decoupled with the currency, you have the appearance of fiat currency subject to much more extreme inflationary tendencies than under a gold standard. But no on decides to turn to fiat money in order to better control people. They do it because it is practical in the particular time and context.

Although I will say, when you read, say, Hindu scriptures, it becomes REALLLLLLLY obvious that the priest class were looking out for themselves when they wrote things up. It gets kinda hilarious at points. It'd be like if the Bible said "say your prayers, and make sure to give money to the priest who you're saying prayers with." Then again, Hindu scriptures is also MUCH more philosophically and analytically rigorous than the Bible.

Oh?

Yeah, I used to think Eastern religion is "mystic" because of the whole guru "I know truth, grasshopper, you listen" bit.

But the attitude in, say, the Srimad Bhagavatam is shockingly analytical.

Imagine if every time Jesus did something, like, say, raise Lazarus from the dead, a bystander came up and said "wait, hold on, why'd you raise Lazarus up but not my dead niece?" Or if a priest were to directly ask the Creator of the universe "you seem really powerful and all, but how do I know you weren't caused by some greater cause?" It's mostly told in the form of dialogues, so though the answers themselves are encoded in stories, a devotee can interrogate God on whatever he wishes, and God absolutely loves it.

In a western context, devotees seem almost downright disrepectful, but in the actual system the questions are seen as a form of devotional worship (inquiring into the divine's nature).
Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
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12/17/2012 6:53:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/17/2012 6:46:35 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 12/17/2012 6:40:38 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 12/17/2012 6:37:30 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 12/17/2012 6:30:22 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 12/17/2012 5:49:56 PM, frozen_eclipse wrote:
I believe at some point people made these religions up or believed that when they saw something new they did.nt understand they called them gods. Eventually people made up there books and used religion for social control. A perfect example of the use of religion for social control is the mormons vs proposistion 8. I don't think religions should be involved in politics at all. I also don't think socity will reach it's full potential untill we figure out a way tostop religions form controlling our society.

You overestimate people far too much.

It's like saying that fiat money exists because someone, at some point, consciously said "let's create a system where we attribute value to a piece of paper so we can control the world through inflationary spending and a federal reserve."

No, it started with people trading chunks of metal that they believed had inherent value (gold). Then, people started using notes as a substitute to carrying tons of gold (currency) and stashing the gold in a single spot which then had more gold at any one time than it needed (fractional banking).

Then, when the value of gold became decoupled with the currency, you have the appearance of fiat currency subject to much more extreme inflationary tendencies than under a gold standard. But no on decides to turn to fiat money in order to better control people. They do it because it is practical in the particular time and context.

Although I will say, when you read, say, Hindu scriptures, it becomes REALLLLLLLY obvious that the priest class were looking out for themselves when they wrote things up. It gets kinda hilarious at points. It'd be like if the Bible said "say your prayers, and make sure to give money to the priest who you're saying prayers with." Then again, Hindu scriptures is also MUCH more philosophically and analytically rigorous than the Bible.

Oh?

Yeah, I used to think Eastern religion is "mystic" because of the whole guru "I know truth, grasshopper, you listen" bit.

But the attitude in, say, the Srimad Bhagavatam is shockingly analytical.

Imagine if every time Jesus did something, like, say, raise Lazarus from the dead, a bystander came up and said "wait, hold on, why'd you raise Lazarus up but not my dead niece?" Or if a priest were to directly ask the Creator of the universe "you seem really powerful and all, but how do I know you weren't caused by some greater cause?" It's mostly told in the form of dialogues, so though the answers themselves are encoded in stories, a devotee can interrogate God on whatever he wishes, and God absolutely loves it.

In a western context, devotees seem almost downright disrepectful, but in the actual system the questions are seen as a form of devotional worship (inquiring into the divine's nature).

Yup, Christ's ministry was definitely not theoretical for sure.. he had a mission on his hands :-)
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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12/17/2012 7:07:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/17/2012 6:53:44 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 12/17/2012 6:46:35 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 12/17/2012 6:40:38 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 12/17/2012 6:37:30 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 12/17/2012 6:30:22 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 12/17/2012 5:49:56 PM, frozen_eclipse wrote:
I believe at some point people made these religions up or believed that when they saw something new they did.nt understand they called them gods. Eventually people made up there books and used religion for social control. A perfect example of the use of religion for social control is the mormons vs proposistion 8. I don't think religions should be involved in politics at all. I also don't think socity will reach it's full potential untill we figure out a way tostop religions form controlling our society.

You overestimate people far too much.

It's like saying that fiat money exists because someone, at some point, consciously said "let's create a system where we attribute value to a piece of paper so we can control the world through inflationary spending and a federal reserve."

No, it started with people trading chunks of metal that they believed had inherent value (gold). Then, people started using notes as a substitute to carrying tons of gold (currency) and stashing the gold in a single spot which then had more gold at any one time than it needed (fractional banking).

Then, when the value of gold became decoupled with the currency, you have the appearance of fiat currency subject to much more extreme inflationary tendencies than under a gold standard. But no on decides to turn to fiat money in order to better control people. They do it because it is practical in the particular time and context.

Although I will say, when you read, say, Hindu scriptures, it becomes REALLLLLLLY obvious that the priest class were looking out for themselves when they wrote things up. It gets kinda hilarious at points. It'd be like if the Bible said "say your prayers, and make sure to give money to the priest who you're saying prayers with." Then again, Hindu scriptures is also MUCH more philosophically and analytically rigorous than the Bible.

Oh?

Yeah, I used to think Eastern religion is "mystic" because of the whole guru "I know truth, grasshopper, you listen" bit.

But the attitude in, say, the Srimad Bhagavatam is shockingly analytical.

Imagine if every time Jesus did something, like, say, raise Lazarus from the dead, a bystander came up and said "wait, hold on, why'd you raise Lazarus up but not my dead niece?" Or if a priest were to directly ask the Creator of the universe "you seem really powerful and all, but how do I know you weren't caused by some greater cause?" It's mostly told in the form of dialogues, so though the answers themselves are encoded in stories, a devotee can interrogate God on whatever he wishes, and God absolutely loves it.

In a western context, devotees seem almost downright disrepectful, but in the actual system the questions are seen as a form of devotional worship (inquiring into the divine's nature).

Yup, Christ's ministry was definitely not theoretical for sure.. he had a mission on his hands :-)

Yes, but it lead to a much more dogmatic, inflexible thought process than what is described in Hindu scripture. For instance, once you reach a certain point of devotional service (which you must determine), in Hinduism you should start IGNORING the various regulations and ceremonial necessities of the Vedas (their Old Testament) because they can only really start you off. You can at one point in life be a faithful husband and father while at another point wandering into the forest and detaching yourself from all sense gratification (including family), and both will lead you to super-heaven if performed correctly. Or you can take the life of a celibate, renounce everything, but only make it to a higher heaven.

But what's most fascinating is this seeming anarchy results in a well-coordinated (and in post-enlightenment sense authoritarian and misogynistic) caste system.
Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
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12/17/2012 7:12:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/17/2012 7:07:59 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 12/17/2012 6:53:44 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 12/17/2012 6:46:35 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 12/17/2012 6:40:38 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 12/17/2012 6:37:30 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 12/17/2012 6:30:22 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 12/17/2012 5:49:56 PM, frozen_eclipse wrote:
I believe at some point people made these religions up or believed that when they saw something new they did.nt understand they called them gods. Eventually people made up there books and used religion for social control. A perfect example of the use of religion for social control is the mormons vs proposistion 8. I don't think religions should be involved in politics at all. I also don't think socity will reach it's full potential untill we figure out a way tostop religions form controlling our society.

You overestimate people far too much.

It's like saying that fiat money exists because someone, at some point, consciously said "let's create a system where we attribute value to a piece of paper so we can control the world through inflationary spending and a federal reserve."

No, it started with people trading chunks of metal that they believed had inherent value (gold). Then, people started using notes as a substitute to carrying tons of gold (currency) and stashing the gold in a single spot which then had more gold at any one time than it needed (fractional banking).

Then, when the value of gold became decoupled with the currency, you have the appearance of fiat currency subject to much more extreme inflationary tendencies than under a gold standard. But no on decides to turn to fiat money in order to better control people. They do it because it is practical in the particular time and context.

Although I will say, when you read, say, Hindu scriptures, it becomes REALLLLLLLY obvious that the priest class were looking out for themselves when they wrote things up. It gets kinda hilarious at points. It'd be like if the Bible said "say your prayers, and make sure to give money to the priest who you're saying prayers with." Then again, Hindu scriptures is also MUCH more philosophically and analytically rigorous than the Bible.

Oh?

Yeah, I used to think Eastern religion is "mystic" because of the whole guru "I know truth, grasshopper, you listen" bit.

But the attitude in, say, the Srimad Bhagavatam is shockingly analytical.

Imagine if every time Jesus did something, like, say, raise Lazarus from the dead, a bystander came up and said "wait, hold on, why'd you raise Lazarus up but not my dead niece?" Or if a priest were to directly ask the Creator of the universe "you seem really powerful and all, but how do I know you weren't caused by some greater cause?" It's mostly told in the form of dialogues, so though the answers themselves are encoded in stories, a devotee can interrogate God on whatever he wishes, and God absolutely loves it.

In a western context, devotees seem almost downright disrepectful, but in the actual system the questions are seen as a form of devotional worship (inquiring into the divine's nature).

Yup, Christ's ministry was definitely not theoretical for sure.. he had a mission on his hands :-)

Yes, but it lead to a much more dogmatic, inflexible thought process than what is described in Hindu scripture. For instance, once you reach a certain point of devotional service (which you must determine), in Hinduism you should start IGNORING the various regulations and ceremonial necessities of the Vedas (their Old Testament) because they can only really start you off. You can at one point in life be a faithful husband and father while at another point wandering into the forest and detaching yourself from all sense gratification (including family), and both will lead you to super-heaven if performed correctly. Or you can take the life of a celibate, renounce everything, but only make it to a higher heaven.

But what's most fascinating is this seeming anarchy results in a well-coordinated (and in post-enlightenment sense authoritarian and misogynistic) caste system.

That's cool. Hey what's their assurance of salvation like?
Apeiron
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12/17/2012 7:15:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I remember taking a class in the religions of China, I do appreciate their philosophy and outlook on like. Esp their view of the incommensurability of value.
Nidhogg
Posts: 503
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12/17/2012 7:17:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/17/2012 5:49:56 PM, frozen_eclipse wrote:
I believe at some point people made these religions up or believed that when they saw something new they did.nt understand they called them gods. Eventually people made up there books and used religion for social control. A perfect example of the use of religion for social control is the mormons vs proposistion 8. I don't think religions should be involved in politics at all. I also don't think socity will reach it's full potential untill we figure out a way tostop religions form controlling our society.

Somewhat true, but is this a bad thing? Is atheism any different?
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Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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12/17/2012 7:22:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/17/2012 7:12:01 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 12/17/2012 7:07:59 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 12/17/2012 6:53:44 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 12/17/2012 6:46:35 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 12/17/2012 6:40:38 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 12/17/2012 6:37:30 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 12/17/2012 6:30:22 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 12/17/2012 5:49:56 PM, frozen_eclipse wrote:
I believe at some point people made these religions up or believed that when they saw something new they did.nt understand they called them gods. Eventually people made up there books and used religion for social control. A perfect example of the use of religion for social control is the mormons vs proposistion 8. I don't think religions should be involved in politics at all. I also don't think socity will reach it's full potential untill we figure out a way tostop religions form controlling our society.

You overestimate people far too much.

It's like saying that fiat money exists because someone, at some point, consciously said "let's create a system where we attribute value to a piece of paper so we can control the world through inflationary spending and a federal reserve."

No, it started with people trading chunks of metal that they believed had inherent value (gold). Then, people started using notes as a substitute to carrying tons of gold (currency) and stashing the gold in a single spot which then had more gold at any one time than it needed (fractional banking).

Then, when the value of gold became decoupled with the currency, you have the appearance of fiat currency subject to much more extreme inflationary tendencies than under a gold standard. But no on decides to turn to fiat money in order to better control people. They do it because it is practical in the particular time and context.

Although I will say, when you read, say, Hindu scriptures, it becomes REALLLLLLLY obvious that the priest class were looking out for themselves when they wrote things up. It gets kinda hilarious at points. It'd be like if the Bible said "say your prayers, and make sure to give money to the priest who you're saying prayers with." Then again, Hindu scriptures is also MUCH more philosophically and analytically rigorous than the Bible.

Oh?

Yeah, I used to think Eastern religion is "mystic" because of the whole guru "I know truth, grasshopper, you listen" bit.

But the attitude in, say, the Srimad Bhagavatam is shockingly analytical.

Imagine if every time Jesus did something, like, say, raise Lazarus from the dead, a bystander came up and said "wait, hold on, why'd you raise Lazarus up but not my dead niece?" Or if a priest were to directly ask the Creator of the universe "you seem really powerful and all, but how do I know you weren't caused by some greater cause?" It's mostly told in the form of dialogues, so though the answers themselves are encoded in stories, a devotee can interrogate God on whatever he wishes, and God absolutely loves it.

In a western context, devotees seem almost downright disrepectful, but in the actual system the questions are seen as a form of devotional worship (inquiring into the divine's nature).

Yup, Christ's ministry was definitely not theoretical for sure.. he had a mission on his hands :-)

Yes, but it lead to a much more dogmatic, inflexible thought process than what is described in Hindu scripture. For instance, once you reach a certain point of devotional service (which you must determine), in Hinduism you should start IGNORING the various regulations and ceremonial necessities of the Vedas (their Old Testament) because they can only really start you off. You can at one point in life be a faithful husband and father while at another point wandering into the forest and detaching yourself from all sense gratification (including family), and both will lead you to super-heaven if performed correctly. Or you can take the life of a celibate, renounce everything, but only make it to a higher heaven.

But what's most fascinating is this seeming anarchy results in a well-coordinated (and in post-enlightenment sense authoritarian and misogynistic) caste system.

That's cool. Hey what's their assurance of salvation like?

Depends what you want.

If you try for doing good deeds, you get a temporary heaven to enjoy for a few hundred thousand or millions of years (don't take the numbers too literally), but once you've "worn out" your good deeds you get sent back to the material world in a different body depending largely on what you were concentrating on for most of your life (i.e. a worm who spends life afraid of a bee will become a bee in his next life, a man who cares only for women ends up a woman in the next life, etc).

No matter where you end up, though, even if you are born a demon, you can still become a devotee and wipe out your past kharma. If you're really good at just thinking about God (or, interestingly, if you're coincidentally killed just after thinking the lord's name), you can get to super-heaven in one lifetime, but it's really f*cking hard even if you know what you're supposed to be worshiping (which a vast majority of believers don't even know).

If you desire anything, INCLUDING getting into super-heaven/being liberated, you don't get super-heaven but you get one of the better heavens.

Although, I have to say, they REALLY, REALLY are not fond of meat eaters. There's a special hell for them (where the animals you ate get to repeatedly eat you), so it'll take a lot of good deeds or devotional service to nix that.

I must say, perhaps my favorite part is how appropriate the Hindu punishments are. Essentially, whatever you did wrong, they flip it over onto you, but only so you can "work off" the bad kharma you got during life. It's not a punishment as much as a cleansing.
Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
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12/17/2012 7:27:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/17/2012 7:22:58 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 12/17/2012 7:12:01 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 12/17/2012 7:07:59 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 12/17/2012 6:53:44 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 12/17/2012 6:46:35 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 12/17/2012 6:40:38 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 12/17/2012 6:37:30 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 12/17/2012 6:30:22 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 12/17/2012 5:49:56 PM, frozen_eclipse wrote:
I believe at some point people made these religions up or believed that when they saw something new they did.nt understand they called them gods. Eventually people made up there books and used religion for social control. A perfect example of the use of religion for social control is the mormons vs proposistion 8. I don't think religions should be involved in politics at all. I also don't think socity will reach it's full potential untill we figure out a way tostop religions form controlling our society.

You overestimate people far too much.

It's like saying that fiat money exists because someone, at some point, consciously said "let's create a system where we attribute value to a piece of paper so we can control the world through inflationary spending and a federal reserve."

No, it started with people trading chunks of metal that they believed had inherent value (gold). Then, people started using notes as a substitute to carrying tons of gold (currency) and stashing the gold in a single spot which then had more gold at any one time than it needed (fractional banking).

Then, when the value of gold became decoupled with the currency, you have the appearance of fiat currency subject to much more extreme inflationary tendencies than under a gold standard. But no on decides to turn to fiat money in order to better control people. They do it because it is practical in the particular time and context.

Although I will say, when you read, say, Hindu scriptures, it becomes REALLLLLLLY obvious that the priest class were looking out for themselves when they wrote things up. It gets kinda hilarious at points. It'd be like if the Bible said "say your prayers, and make sure to give money to the priest who you're saying prayers with." Then again, Hindu scriptures is also MUCH more philosophically and analytically rigorous than the Bible.

Oh?

Yeah, I used to think Eastern religion is "mystic" because of the whole guru "I know truth, grasshopper, you listen" bit.

But the attitude in, say, the Srimad Bhagavatam is shockingly analytical.

Imagine if every time Jesus did something, like, say, raise Lazarus from the dead, a bystander came up and said "wait, hold on, why'd you raise Lazarus up but not my dead niece?" Or if a priest were to directly ask the Creator of the universe "you seem really powerful and all, but how do I know you weren't caused by some greater cause?" It's mostly told in the form of dialogues, so though the answers themselves are encoded in stories, a devotee can interrogate God on whatever he wishes, and God absolutely loves it.

In a western context, devotees seem almost downright disrepectful, but in the actual system the questions are seen as a form of devotional worship (inquiring into the divine's nature).

Yup, Christ's ministry was definitely not theoretical for sure.. he had a mission on his hands :-)

Yes, but it lead to a much more dogmatic, inflexible thought process than what is described in Hindu scripture. For instance, once you reach a certain point of devotional service (which you must determine), in Hinduism you should start IGNORING the various regulations and ceremonial necessities of the Vedas (their Old Testament) because they can only really start you off. You can at one point in life be a faithful husband and father while at another point wandering into the forest and detaching yourself from all sense gratification (including family), and both will lead you to super-heaven if performed correctly. Or you can take the life of a celibate, renounce everything, but only make it to a higher heaven.

But what's most fascinating is this seeming anarchy results in a well-coordinated (and in post-enlightenment sense authoritarian and misogynistic) caste system.

That's cool. Hey what's their assurance of salvation like?

Depends what you want.

If you try for doing good deeds, you get a temporary heaven to enjoy for a few hundred thousand or millions of years (don't take the numbers too literally), but once you've "worn out" your good deeds you get sent back to the material world in a different body depending largely on what you were concentrating on for most of your life (i.e. a worm who spends life afraid of a bee will become a bee in his next life, a man who cares only for women ends up a woman in the next life, etc).

No matter where you end up, though, even if you are born a demon, you can still become a devotee and wipe out your past kharma. If you're really good at just thinking about God (or, interestingly, if you're coincidentally killed just after thinking the lord's name), you can get to super-heaven in one lifetime, but it's really f*cking hard even if you know what you're supposed to be worshiping (which a vast majority of believers don't even know).

If you desire anything, INCLUDING getting into super-heaven/being liberated, you don't get super-heaven but you get one of the better heavens.

Although, I have to say, they REALLY, REALLY are not fond of meat eaters. There's a special hell for them (where the animals you ate get to repeatedly eat you), so it'll take a lot of good deeds or devotional service to nix that.

I must say, perhaps my favorite part is how appropriate the Hindu punishments are. Essentially, whatever you did wrong, they flip it over onto you, but only so you can "work off" the bad kharma you got during life. It's not a punishment as much as a cleansing.

Cows would be devouring me daily!
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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12/17/2012 7:28:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/17/2012 7:13:55 PM, Apeiron wrote:
Also, was Christ dogmatic?

Well, for instance, you can't get into Christian heaven unless you believe in the Christian gods. An atheist who acts according to Christian regulation will not get into heaven.

A Christian can be condemned for certain actions regardless of the intent. For instance, to choose to lie instead of allow someone else to be killed is still considered sinful. In Hinduism, they are very specific about how the time and context can make certain deeds appropriate which in other times and contexts would not be. Furthermore, a good deed in Hinduism done by someone with bad intentions is seen religiously as almost as bad (and in certain cases worse) than not acting.
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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12/17/2012 7:30:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/17/2012 7:27:38 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 12/17/2012 7:22:58 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 12/17/2012 7:12:01 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 12/17/2012 7:07:59 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 12/17/2012 6:53:44 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 12/17/2012 6:46:35 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 12/17/2012 6:40:38 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 12/17/2012 6:37:30 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 12/17/2012 6:30:22 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 12/17/2012 5:49:56 PM, frozen_eclipse wrote:
I believe at some point people made these religions up or believed that when they saw something new they did.nt understand they called them gods. Eventually people made up there books and used religion for social control. A perfect example of the use of religion for social control is the mormons vs proposistion 8. I don't think religions should be involved in politics at all. I also don't think socity will reach it's full potential untill we figure out a way tostop religions form controlling our society.

You overestimate people far too much.

It's like saying that fiat money exists because someone, at some point, consciously said "let's create a system where we attribute value to a piece of paper so we can control the world through inflationary spending and a federal reserve."

No, it started with people trading chunks of metal that they believed had inherent value (gold). Then, people started using notes as a substitute to carrying tons of gold (currency) and stashing the gold in a single spot which then had more gold at any one time than it needed (fractional banking).

Then, when the value of gold became decoupled with the currency, you have the appearance of fiat currency subject to much more extreme inflationary tendencies than under a gold standard. But no on decides to turn to fiat money in order to better control people. They do it because it is practical in the particular time and context.

Although I will say, when you read, say, Hindu scriptures, it becomes REALLLLLLLY obvious that the priest class were looking out for themselves when they wrote things up. It gets kinda hilarious at points. It'd be like if the Bible said "say your prayers, and make sure to give money to the priest who you're saying prayers with." Then again, Hindu scriptures is also MUCH more philosophically and analytically rigorous than the Bible.

Oh?

Yeah, I used to think Eastern religion is "mystic" because of the whole guru "I know truth, grasshopper, you listen" bit.

But the attitude in, say, the Srimad Bhagavatam is shockingly analytical.

Imagine if every time Jesus did something, like, say, raise Lazarus from the dead, a bystander came up and said "wait, hold on, why'd you raise Lazarus up but not my dead niece?" Or if a priest were to directly ask the Creator of the universe "you seem really powerful and all, but how do I know you weren't caused by some greater cause?" It's mostly told in the form of dialogues, so though the answers themselves are encoded in stories, a devotee can interrogate God on whatever he wishes, and God absolutely loves it.

In a western context, devotees seem almost downright disrepectful, but in the actual system the questions are seen as a form of devotional worship (inquiring into the divine's nature).

Yup, Christ's ministry was definitely not theoretical for sure.. he had a mission on his hands :-)

Yes, but it lead to a much more dogmatic, inflexible thought process than what is described in Hindu scripture. For instance, once you reach a certain point of devotional service (which you must determine), in Hinduism you should start IGNORING the various regulations and ceremonial necessities of the Vedas (their Old Testament) because they can only really start you off. You can at one point in life be a faithful husband and father while at another point wandering into the forest and detaching yourself from all sense gratification (including family), and both will lead you to super-heaven if performed correctly. Or you can take the life of a celibate, renounce everything, but only make it to a higher heaven.

But what's most fascinating is this seeming anarchy results in a well-coordinated (and in post-enlightenment sense authoritarian and misogynistic) caste system.

That's cool. Hey what's their assurance of salvation like?

Depends what you want.

If you try for doing good deeds, you get a temporary heaven to enjoy for a few hundred thousand or millions of years (don't take the numbers too literally), but once you've "worn out" your good deeds you get sent back to the material world in a different body depending largely on what you were concentrating on for most of your life (i.e. a worm who spends life afraid of a bee will become a bee in his next life, a man who cares only for women ends up a woman in the next life, etc).

No matter where you end up, though, even if you are born a demon, you can still become a devotee and wipe out your past kharma. If you're really good at just thinking about God (or, interestingly, if you're coincidentally killed just after thinking the lord's name), you can get to super-heaven in one lifetime, but it's really f*cking hard even if you know what you're supposed to be worshiping (which a vast majority of believers don't even know).

If you desire anything, INCLUDING getting into super-heaven/being liberated, you don't get super-heaven but you get one of the better heavens.

Although, I have to say, they REALLY, REALLY are not fond of meat eaters. There's a special hell for them (where the animals you ate get to repeatedly eat you), so it'll take a lot of good deeds or devotional service to nix that.

I must say, perhaps my favorite part is how appropriate the Hindu punishments are. Essentially, whatever you did wrong, they flip it over onto you, but only so you can "work off" the bad kharma you got during life. It's not a punishment as much as a cleansing.

Cows would be devouring me daily!

Oh yeah, forgot, they are OUTRAGED at people who mistreat cows, much less eat them. Still trying to figure out just what the f*ck is so special about them, but only have sociological explanations so far (i.e. nomadic tribes would value their resource-producing animals over wild animals).

So, I'd say we're both in for it.
Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
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12/17/2012 7:37:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/17/2012 7:28:30 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 12/17/2012 7:13:55 PM, Apeiron wrote:
Also, was Christ dogmatic?

Well, for instance, you can't get into Christian heaven unless you believe in the Christian gods. An atheist who acts according to Christian regulation will not get into heaven.

Oh I don't know about that- don't Christian's affirm James 2:19-20?

"You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that"and shudder. You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?"

A Christian can be condemned for certain actions regardless of the intent. For instance, to choose to lie instead of allow someone else to be killed is still considered sinful. In Hinduism, they are very specific about how the time and context can make certain deeds appropriate which in other times and contexts would not be. Furthermore, a good deed in Hinduism done by someone with bad intentions is seen religiously as almost as bad (and in certain cases worse) than not acting.

Christianity if it has an ethic is deontic and person / God-oriented as well. Where are you making this distinction? Is there a scriptural verse?
Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
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12/17/2012 7:38:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/17/2012 7:30:06 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 12/17/2012 7:27:38 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 12/17/2012 7:22:58 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 12/17/2012 7:12:01 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 12/17/2012 7:07:59 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 12/17/2012 6:53:44 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 12/17/2012 6:46:35 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 12/17/2012 6:40:38 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 12/17/2012 6:37:30 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 12/17/2012 6:30:22 PM, Wnope wrote:
At 12/17/2012 5:49:56 PM, frozen_eclipse wrote:
I believe at some point people made these religions up or believed that when they saw something new they did.nt understand they called them gods. Eventually people made up there books and used religion for social control. A perfect example of the use of religion for social control is the mormons vs proposistion 8. I don't think religions should be involved in politics at all. I also don't think socity will reach it's full potential untill we figure out a way tostop religions form controlling our society.

You overestimate people far too much.

It's like saying that fiat money exists because someone, at some point, consciously said "let's create a system where we attribute value to a piece of paper so we can control the world through inflationary spending and a federal reserve."

No, it started with people trading chunks of metal that they believed had inherent value (gold). Then, people started using notes as a substitute to carrying tons of gold (currency) and stashing the gold in a single spot which then had more gold at any one time than it needed (fractional banking).

Then, when the value of gold became decoupled with the currency, you have the appearance of fiat currency subject to much more extreme inflationary tendencies than under a gold standard. But no on decides to turn to fiat money in order to better control people. They do it because it is practical in the particular time and context.

Although I will say, when you read, say, Hindu scriptures, it becomes REALLLLLLLY obvious that the priest class were looking out for themselves when they wrote things up. It gets kinda hilarious at points. It'd be like if the Bible said "say your prayers, and make sure to give money to the priest who you're saying prayers with." Then again, Hindu scriptures is also MUCH more philosophically and analytically rigorous than the Bible.

Oh?

Yeah, I used to think Eastern religion is "mystic" because of the whole guru "I know truth, grasshopper, you listen" bit.

But the attitude in, say, the Srimad Bhagavatam is shockingly analytical.

Imagine if every time Jesus did something, like, say, raise Lazarus from the dead, a bystander came up and said "wait, hold on, why'd you raise Lazarus up but not my dead niece?" Or if a priest were to directly ask the Creator of the universe "you seem really powerful and all, but how do I know you weren't caused by some greater cause?" It's mostly told in the form of dialogues, so though the answers themselves are encoded in stories, a devotee can interrogate God on whatever he wishes, and God absolutely loves it.

In a western context, devotees seem almost downright disrepectful, but in the actual system the questions are seen as a form of devotional worship (inquiring into the divine's nature).

Yup, Christ's ministry was definitely not theoretical for sure.. he had a mission on his hands :-)

Yes, but it lead to a much more dogmatic, inflexible thought process than what is described in Hindu scripture. For instance, once you reach a certain point of devotional service (which you must determine), in Hinduism you should start IGNORING the various regulations and ceremonial necessities of the Vedas (their Old Testament) because they can only really start you off. You can at one point in life be a faithful husband and father while at another point wandering into the forest and detaching yourself from all sense gratification (including family), and both will lead you to super-heaven if performed correctly. Or you can take the life of a celibate, renounce everything, but only make it to a higher heaven.

But what's most fascinating is this seeming anarchy results in a well-coordinated (and in post-enlightenment sense authoritarian and misogynistic) caste system.

That's cool. Hey what's their assurance of salvation like?

Depends what you want.

If you try for doing good deeds, you get a temporary heaven to enjoy for a few hundred thousand or millions of years (don't take the numbers too literally), but once you've "worn out" your good deeds you get sent back to the material world in a different body depending largely on what you were concentrating on for most of your life (i.e. a worm who spends life afraid of a bee will become a bee in his next life, a man who cares only for women ends up a woman in the next life, etc).

No matter where you end up, though, even if you are born a demon, you can still become a devotee and wipe out your past kharma. If you're really good at just thinking about God (or, interestingly, if you're coincidentally killed just after thinking the lord's name), you can get to super-heaven in one lifetime, but it's really f*cking hard even if you know what you're supposed to be worshiping (which a vast majority of believers don't even know).

If you desire anything, INCLUDING getting into super-heaven/being liberated, you don't get super-heaven but you get one of the better heavens.

Although, I have to say, they REALLY, REALLY are not fond of meat eaters. There's a special hell for them (where the animals you ate get to repeatedly eat you), so it'll take a lot of good deeds or devotional service to nix that.

I must say, perhaps my favorite part is how appropriate the Hindu punishments are. Essentially, whatever you did wrong, they flip it over onto you, but only so you can "work off" the bad kharma you got during life. It's not a punishment as much as a cleansing.

Cows would be devouring me daily!

Oh yeah, forgot, they are OUTRAGED at people who mistreat cows, much less eat them. Still trying to figure out just what the f*ck is so special about them, but only have sociological explanations so far (i.e. nomadic tribes would value their resource-producing animals over wild animals).

So, I'd say we're both in for it.

lol
Dogknox
Posts: 5,039
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12/17/2012 10:40:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I add... There is more to Jesus then just religion... Explain away the many thousands of "Miracles Attributed to Jesus" though out history!
Every century un-explainable miracles (Un-explainable is what miracles are) continue to happen!

Dogknox
stubs
Posts: 1,887
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12/17/2012 11:38:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/17/2012 6:29:07 PM, EvanK wrote:
At 12/17/2012 6:24:57 PM, Apeiron wrote:
Christ was one of the biggest anarchists in history! Nearly brought war upon Jerusalem... in fact a few years after his death there WAS a war!

I agree with that.

Like when he said "Render to Caesar what is Caesars?" John the Baptist was much more politically involved than Jesus was.