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Stop Celebrating Christmas. It's time.

Wallstreetatheist
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12/18/2012 6:29:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
It"s time to stop celebrating Christmas. It"s a ridiculous holiday, and it does more harm than good.

Look at the history of Christmas. It was originally a Pagan holiday that celebrated the winter solstice. Then Christian leaders made up a lie that Jesus was born on the winter solstice to steal the appeal of the celebration and undermine their competition. It"s one mythology telling a lie to undermine another mythology. That"s basically retarded, but the situation is more absurd than that, because sometime after World War II Coca~Cola invented the modern version of Santa Clause and helped money hungry corporations steal the grandeur of Christmas from the Christians and use it to indoctrinate gross consumerism into children, which is a distinctly un-Christian and un-Pagan practice. So Christmas is a celebration of irresponsibility, lies and mythology. This holiday isn"t based on reason, celebrating it is equivalent to celebrating irrationality, which is equivalent to celebrating insanity. Christmas is a celebration of insanity.

The only reason we still celebrate Christmas is because humans tend to do what they"ve always done even if it doesn"t make any sense or is hurting them. Despite all the dick and fart jokes on the internet, society has actually evolved a lot since the invention of the internet. People are better informed than at any time in history, and rationality is becoming more and more popular. We"re smart enough to lay this obsolete holiday to rest and move on. We"re smart enough to know that we"ve got real problems to worry about.

I suggest we replace Christmas with a new holiday called, "Just Help Someone Day." You don"t kill a coniferous tree or spoil your children on Just Help Someone Day. You don"t dress up like a Pagan monster. You don"t put up lights or lawn decorations. You just go help some damn body. The reason you celebrate Just Help Somebody Day is because it"s rational and empathetic. It"s what you should be doing anyway. If you simply must have presents and hot chocoloate then we could have Present Day once a month or once a season. We could have Hot Chocolate and Silly Hats Day too. Let"s celebrate life without pretending to believe in bullsh!t.

If we keep raising kids on absurd, irresponsible, anti-intellectual mythologies they"ll keep living in a fncked up reality and acting accordingly foolish. If we get kids used to helping people, maybe they"ll retain that cultural practice into adulthood and pass it on to their kids. Let"s raise the bar. Let"s stop celebrating Christmas.
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OberHerr
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12/18/2012 6:31:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
How about no?
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Nur-Ab-Sal
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12/18/2012 6:36:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I can't speak for everyone in the Christian world, but my family celebrates Christmas as a holiday that represents Jesus's birth into the world.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
MouthWash
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12/18/2012 6:39:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Nice troll thread ya got there.
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Danielle
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12/18/2012 6:46:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/18/2012 6:39:56 PM, MouthWash wrote:
Nice troll thread ya got there.

It's not a troll thread just because you and many other people would disagree with it. I think WSA brings up some good points. However, it kind of undermines the relevance of tradition and symbolism in society in general. When you think about it, so many things (almost everything) we do are just traditional or symbolic actions with no actual purpose or inherent meaning. Think about something like getting married and all of the rituals associated with it. Atheists participate in that kind of stuff all the time, including wearing a white dress (when most of us sure as hell aren't virgins - what the white is supposed to symbolize). We wear wedding rings. We assume the male's last name. Ceremonies, celebrations - including birthdays - and even things as commonplace as saying "Bless you" when someone sneezes don't actually serve a purpose outside of holding value rooted in tradition. It's part of human nature. I personally LOVE the Christmas season - the music (lulz, yup), buying gifts (most of the time... but I hate when it's forced, and the fact that I have such a huge family) and of course the sights/scents/flavors we associate with this time of year: lights, gingerbread, peppermint, etc. It's pretty comforting. I think if we want to make a legitimate case against Christmas, we would have to extend that to so many other aspects of our culture. I don't think most people are ready or willing to let go of certain symbols or traditions. Some might argue that it's what makes us who we are and showcases an interesting cultural evolution.
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Nidhogg
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12/18/2012 6:51:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Or we could stop commercialism.
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OberHerr
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12/18/2012 7:01:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Lol at rationality being popular.
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Sidewalker
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12/18/2012 7:22:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
You have a problem with the winter solstice?
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EvanK
Posts: 599
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12/18/2012 8:17:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/18/2012 6:29:02 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
It"s time to stop celebrating Christmas. It"s a ridiculous holiday, and it does more harm than good.

Look at the history of Christmas. It was originally a Pagan holiday that celebrated the winter solstice. Then Christian leaders made up a lie that Jesus was born on the winter solstice to steal the appeal of the celebration and undermine their competition. It"s one mythology telling a lie to undermine another mythology. That"s basically retarded, but the situation is more absurd than that, because sometime after World War II Coca~Cola invented the modern version of Santa Clause and helped money hungry corporations steal the grandeur of Christmas from the Christians and use it to indoctrinate gross consumerism into children, which is a distinctly un-Christian and un-Pagan practice. So Christmas is a celebration of irresponsibility, lies and mythology. This holiday isn"t based on reason, celebrating it is equivalent to celebrating irrationality, which is equivalent to celebrating insanity. Christmas is a celebration of insanity.

The only reason we still celebrate Christmas is because humans tend to do what they"ve always done even if it doesn"t make any sense or is hurting them. Despite all the dick and fart jokes on the internet, society has actually evolved a lot since the invention of the internet. People are better informed than at any time in history, and rationality is becoming more and more popular. We"re smart enough to lay this obsolete holiday to rest and move on. We"re smart enough to know that we"ve got real problems to worry about.

I suggest we replace Christmas with a new holiday called, "Just Help Someone Day." You don"t kill a coniferous tree or spoil your children on Just Help Someone Day. You don"t dress up like a Pagan monster. You don"t put up lights or lawn decorations. You just go help some damn body. The reason you celebrate Just Help Somebody Day is because it"s rational and empathetic. It"s what you should be doing anyway. If you simply must have presents and hot chocoloate then we could have Present Day once a month or once a season. We could have Hot Chocolate and Silly Hats Day too. Let"s celebrate life without pretending to believe in bullsh!t.

If we keep raising kids on absurd, irresponsible, anti-intellectual mythologies they"ll keep living in a fncked up reality and acting accordingly foolish. If we get kids used to helping people, maybe they"ll retain that cultural practice into adulthood and pass it on to their kids. Let"s raise the bar. Let"s stop celebrating Christmas.

You're just jealous that Atheists don't have any cool holidays!! XD
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philochristos
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12/18/2012 8:25:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/18/2012 6:29:02 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
It"s time to stop celebrating Christmas. It"s a ridiculous holiday, and it does more harm than good.

It's done me more good than harm. I love Christmas. I love Christmas movies. I enjoy it, so I don't see any reason to stop.

Look at the history of Christmas. It was originally a Pagan holiday that celebrated the winter solstice. Then Christian leaders made up a lie that Jesus was born on the winter solstice to steal the appeal of the celebration and undermine their competition.

That's not how it went down. The decision to celebrate Jesus' birthday on Saturnalia is no different than how a lot of churches today have "fall festivals" on Halloween. It's just a way to give Christians an alternative to celebrating what they otherwise perceive to be an unsavory holiday.

That"s basically retarded, but the situation is more absurd than that, because sometime after World War II Coca~Cola invented the modern version of Santa Clause...

No, they didn't. The modern version of Santa Clause comes from the poem, "A Night Before Christmas."

So Christmas is a celebration of irresponsibility, lies and mythology.

No, it's not. It's a celebration of the birth of Jesus. The way it has been celebrated has been different from time to time and place to place. It used to be a drinking holiday, and there were efforts in this country to get it banned.

This holiday isn"t based on reason, celebrating it is equivalent to celebrating irrationality, which is equivalent to celebrating insanity. Christmas is a celebration of insanity.

It's a celebration of hope because it celebrates the birth of a king who was prophecied to fulfill the promise of God to always have a man on the throne of David.

The only reason we still celebrate Christmas is because humans tend to do what they"ve always done even if it doesn"t make any sense or is hurting them.

I celebrate it because it's fun, and I enjoy it.

People are better informed than at any time in history, and rationality is becoming more and more popular.

I don't really think so. It's true that information is more readily accessible than it used to be, but it's also true that misinformation circulates faster than it used to. And I haven't noticed any increase the average person's critical thinking skills. In fact, the internet is full of idiocy, and sometimes takes quite a bit of effort to weed through it all.

We"re smart enough to lay this obsolete holiday to rest and move on.

We're also smart enough to keep celebrating it if we want to.

We"re smart enough to know that we"ve got real problems to worry about.

We're also smart enough to know that we're never going to solve all of us problems and that it would be foolish to put our lives on hold until we do.

I suggest we replace Christmas with a new holiday called, "Just Help Someone Day."

How about Festivus? Festivus is a holiday invented by Seinfeld, and it is celebrated by venting your grievances against other people.

You don"t kill a coniferous tree or spoil your children on Just Help Someone Day. You don"t dress up like a Pagan monster. You don"t put up lights or lawn decorations.

Well, that sounds boring.

You just go help some damn body.

I don't need a holiday to just help some damn body. There are charities for that. In fact, a girl was riding her bike in my neighborhood recently and got hit by a car and is in critical condition. She and her family cannot pay her medical expenses, so if you want to help somebody, help them:

http://www.giveforward.com...

The reason you celebrate Just Help Somebody Day is because it"s rational and empathetic.

Don't wait until Just Help Somebody Day to help Jennifer. Help her today!

It"s what you should be doing anyway.

Then do it.

If you simply must have presents and hot chocoloate then we could have Present Day once a month or once a season.

Why not on Christmas?

Let"s celebrate life without pretending to believe in bullsh!t.

I'm not pretending. I think Jesus really was born. Most people do.

If we keep raising kids on absurd, irresponsible, anti-intellectual mythologies they"ll keep living in a fncked up reality and acting accordingly foolish.

You don't have to tell kids there's really a Santa Clause to celebrate Christmas. But besides that, most of the people I know were made to believe in Santa Clause when they were kids, and they are fully functional people living properous lives. They are not living in a "fncked up reality" or "acting accordingly foolish."

If we get kids used to helping people, maybe they"ll retain that cultural practice into adulthood and pass it on to their kids. Let"s raise the bar. Let"s stop celebrating Christmas.

You act as if teaching kids to help people and celebrating Christmas are mutually exclusive. I don't think so.
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Apeiron
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12/18/2012 8:34:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/18/2012 6:46:41 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 12/18/2012 6:39:56 PM, MouthWash wrote:
Nice troll thread ya got there.

It's not a troll thread just because you and many other people would disagree with it. I think WSA brings up some good points. However, it kind of undermines the relevance of tradition and symbolism in society in general. When you think about it, so many things (almost everything) we do are just traditional or symbolic actions with no actual purpose or inherent meaning. Think about something like getting married and all of the rituals associated with it. Atheists participate in that kind of stuff all the time, including wearing a white dress (when most of us sure as hell aren't virgins - what the white is supposed to symbolize). We wear wedding rings. We assume the male's last name. Ceremonies, celebrations - including birthdays - and even things as commonplace as saying "Bless you" when someone sneezes don't actually serve a purpose outside of holding value rooted in tradition. It's part of human nature. I personally LOVE the Christmas season - the music (lulz, yup), buying gifts (most of the time... but I hate when it's forced, and the fact that I have such a huge family) and of course the sights/scents/flavors we associate with this time of year: lights, gingerbread, peppermint, etc. It's pretty comforting. I think if we want to make a legitimate case against Christmas, we would have to extend that to so many other aspects of our culture. I don't think most people are ready or willing to let go of certain symbols or traditions. Some might argue that it's what makes us who we are and showcases an interesting cultural evolution.

Christmas is a holiday for Christians, clearly... all that other stuff you described, the ginger-bread, materialistic gift-giving, cheesy music; you can have it and leave the Christian's alone for all they care.

Who is WSA to say the Christian's are to give up their religious celebration? That would be infringing on their freedom.
socialpinko
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12/18/2012 8:56:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Can I continue celebrating even though I know it's based on politico-religious BS? Me likes presents.
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Apeiron
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12/18/2012 10:40:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/18/2012 8:56:03 PM, socialpinko wrote:
Can I continue celebrating even though I know it's based on politico-religious BS? Me likes presents.

You wouldn't be celebrating Christ - mas then would you? ... you'd be celebrating a westernized party-form a materialism.

Twit I say, have yourself a ball! :-)
Apeiron
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12/18/2012 10:43:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
By only problem is with folks who want to celebrate that westernized spawn of a skeletonized politically correct celebration of the incarnation, while at the same time complaining about other folks who seek to celebrate the actual incarnation without the cozy fluff (call is BS) that Dannielle spoke of up there.
DanielChristopherBlowes
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12/19/2012 2:07:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/18/2012 6:29:02 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
It"s time to stop celebrating Christmas. It"s a ridiculous holiday, and it does more harm than good.

Look at the history of Christmas. It was originally a Pagan holiday that celebrated the winter solstice. Then Christian leaders made up a lie that Jesus was born on the winter solstice to steal the appeal of the celebration and undermine their competition. It"s one mythology telling a lie to undermine another mythology. That"s basically retarded, but the situation is more absurd than that, because sometime after World War II Coca~Cola invented the modern version of Santa Clause and helped money hungry corporations steal the grandeur of Christmas from the Christians and use it to indoctrinate gross consumerism into children, which is a distinctly un-Christian and un-Pagan practice. So Christmas is a celebration of irresponsibility, lies and mythology. This holiday isn"t based on reason, celebrating it is equivalent to celebrating irrationality, which is equivalent to celebrating insanity. Christmas is a celebration of insanity.

The only reason we still celebrate Christmas is because humans tend to do what they"ve always done even if it doesn"t make any sense or is hurting them. Despite all the dick and fart jokes on the internet, society has actually evolved a lot since the invention of the internet. People are better informed than at any time in history, and rationality is becoming more and more popular. We"re smart enough to lay this obsolete holiday to rest and move on. We"re smart enough to know that we"ve got real problems to worry about.

I suggest we replace Christmas with a new holiday called, "Just Help Someone Day." You don"t kill a coniferous tree or spoil your children on Just Help Someone Day. You don"t dress up like a Pagan monster. You don"t put up lights or lawn decorations. You just go help some damn body. The reason you celebrate Just Help Somebody Day is because it"s rational and empathetic. It"s what you should be doing anyway. If you simply must have presents and hot chocoloate then we could have Present Day once a month or once a season. We could have Hot Chocolate and Silly Hats Day too. Let"s celebrate life without pretending to believe in bullsh!t.

If we keep raising kids on absurd, irresponsible, anti-intellectual mythologies they"ll keep living in a fncked up reality and acting accordingly foolish. If we get kids used to helping people, maybe they"ll retain that cultural practice into adulthood and pass it on to their kids. Let"s raise the bar. Let"s stop celebrating Christmas.

We know it's mostly pagan, we know it's daft and expensive and built on untruths etc..

AND WE STILL LOVE IT.
Everyone on the side of Truth listens to Me. (Jesus Christ)
Danielle
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12/19/2012 9:34:59 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/18/2012 10:43:03 PM, Apeiron wrote:
By only problem is with folks who want to celebrate that westernized spawn of a skeletonized politically correct celebration of the incarnation, while at the same time complaining about other folks who seek to celebrate the actual incarnation without the cozy fluff (call is BS) that Dannielle spoke of up there.

I find the "cozy stuff" more worthy of celebration than tall tales. At least the "holiday spirit" is based on humanist principles: family, friendship, charity, generosity, etc. If Christians wanted to celebrate the "actual incarnation" then THEY should probably be the ones to reject the westernized, commercialized version of Christmas. After all, didn't Jesus say to give all of your possessions to the poor and follow Him? He didn't say "Give each other gifts to celebrate my birth." As spinko mentioned, this holiday has been completely politicized since its inception. The word Christmas doesn't represent Christ to me. That's the beauty of symbolism. For me it represents a general celebration and values I appreciate as a humanist. Obviously I'm not naive enough to believe in Jesus' virgin birth derived from and combined with old Pagan mythology, but as a non-believer, I find my celebration less hypocritical than those who participate in the westernized version of Christmas (as I'm sure all theists here do).
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Oryus
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12/19/2012 10:49:09 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
If we got rid of Christmas, we'd have to get rid of Halloween and Valentines Day and St. Patricks day too.... and probably more. Like Columbus day because that holiday is stupid as f*ck. But especially Halloween. That holiday makes no sense at all. But you know... it's fun. It's actually my favorite holiday because it is complete nonsensical fun. And that's why I like Christmas too- pretty lights and garlands everywhere, socially acceptable to drink in the middle of the day, you get together with family and exchange gifts and make big meals, etc. So yeah, it's stupid. But like Danielle pointed out, tons of stuff we do are just stupid, symbolic traditions that have changed bit by bit throughout the generations. That's what culture is all about! Stop being a self-hating human! :P
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badger
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12/19/2012 4:42:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
here, we're never making it to world communism... i'm going drinking.

and then after that i'm setting up a band of robbers to terrorize the rich if anyone wants in.

and that's fvcking life.
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badger
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12/19/2012 4:44:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
this debating stuff's all only a load of cock really. there's no driving logic home as regards the retarded...and the world is full of them!! we're fvcked. merry christmas.
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Apeiron
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12/19/2012 4:54:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 9:34:59 AM, Danielle wrote:
At 12/18/2012 10:43:03 PM, Apeiron wrote:
By only problem is with folks who want to celebrate that westernized spawn of a skeletonized politically correct celebration of the incarnation, while at the same time complaining about other folks who seek to celebrate the actual incarnation without the cozy fluff (call is BS) that Dannielle spoke of up there.

I find the "cozy stuff" more worthy of celebration than tall tales. At least the "holiday spirit" is based on humanist principles: family, friendship, charity, generosity, etc. If Christians wanted to celebrate the "actual incarnation" then THEY should probably be the ones to reject the westernized, commercialized version of Christmas. After all, didn't Jesus say to give all of your possessions to the poor and follow Him? He didn't say "Give each other gifts to celebrate my birth." As spinko mentioned, this holiday has been completely politicized since its inception. The word Christmas doesn't represent Christ to me. That's the beauty of symbolism. For me it represents a general celebration and values I appreciate as a humanist. Obviously I'm not naive enough to believe in Jesus' virgin birth derived from and combined with old Pagan mythology, but as a non-believer, I find my celebration less hypocritical than those who participate in the westernized version of Christmas (as I'm sure all theists here do).

That's fine you prefer the cozy stuff- and it's fine you write off events rooted in history as tall tales, (nearly every historical scholar today would disagree since most recognize a non-mythical view of Christ.. but then you correct yourself at the end and say it would be naive to believe such a thing).

Now my point was, most Christian's DO reject westernized, commercialized version of Christmas... how'd ya miss that..?

That's also fine you want to delude the holiday of its meaning- why not call our landing on the moon symbolism while we're making stuff up ;-)

There's nothing more that gets most of my Christian friends down during Christmas than the materialistic distraction: hence every pastor's most used phrase that day, "the TRUE meaning of the season is....[insert baby Jesus here... like God did.]"

PS- I can't help but wonder if you truly are a humanist. Calling all theists hypocritical and generalizing them just because their beliefs seems to go contrary to what a Christian humanist, like myself, would do. Indeed that would even go against "charity" that you spoke of earlier.

Also your foul treatment of a young man on this site (MouthWash) played a 'tit-for-tat- game that was comparable to a teenager's rivalry. Not an adult discussion between you, a "humanist" and a person who hasn't gone through college yet. If that was the sort of exemplification of your so called humanism then no thanks, I'll still to, and invite you to take a lesson from- Christian humanism.
RationalMadman
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12/19/2012 4:56:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/18/2012 6:29:02 PM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
It"s time to stop celebrating Christmas. It"s a ridiculous holiday, and it does more harm than good.

Look at the history of Christmas. It was originally a Pagan holiday that celebrated the winter solstice. Then Christian leaders made up a lie that Jesus was born on the winter solstice to steal the appeal of the celebration and undermine their competition. It"s one mythology telling a lie to undermine another mythology. That"s basically retarded, but the situation is more absurd than that, because sometime after World War II Coca~Cola invented the modern version of Santa Clause and helped money hungry corporations steal the grandeur of Christmas from the Christians and use it to indoctrinate gross consumerism into children, which is a distinctly un-Christian and un-Pagan practice. So Christmas is a celebration of irresponsibility, lies and mythology. This holiday isn"t based on reason, celebrating it is equivalent to celebrating irrationality, which is equivalent to celebrating insanity. Christmas is a celebration of insanity.

The only reason we still celebrate Christmas is because humans tend to do what they"ve always done even if it doesn"t make any sense or is hurting them. Despite all the dick and fart jokes on the internet, society has actually evolved a lot since the invention of the internet. People are better informed than at any time in history, and rationality is becoming more and more popular. We"re smart enough to lay this obsolete holiday to rest and move on. We"re smart enough to know that we"ve got real problems to worry about.

I suggest we replace Christmas with a new holiday called, "Just Help Someone Day." You don"t kill a coniferous tree or spoil your children on Just Help Someone Day. You don"t dress up like a Pagan monster. You don"t put up lights or lawn decorations. You just go help some damn body. The reason you celebrate Just Help Somebody Day is because it"s rational and empathetic. It"s what you should be doing anyway. If you simply must have presents and hot chocoloate then we could have Present Day once a month or once a season. We could have Hot Chocolate and Silly Hats Day too. Let"s celebrate life without pretending to believe in bullsh!t.

If we keep raising kids on absurd, irresponsible, anti-intellectual mythologies they"ll keep living in a fncked up reality and acting accordingly foolish. If we get kids used to helping people, maybe they"ll retain that cultural practice into adulthood and pass it on to their kids. Let"s raise the bar. Let"s stop celebrating Christmas.
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badger
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12/19/2012 4:59:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 4:54:32 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 12/19/2012 9:34:59 AM, Danielle wrote:
At 12/18/2012 10:43:03 PM, Apeiron wrote:
By only problem is with folks who want to celebrate that westernized spawn of a skeletonized politically correct celebration of the incarnation, while at the same time complaining about other folks who seek to celebrate the actual incarnation without the cozy fluff (call is BS) that Dannielle spoke of up there.

I find the "cozy stuff" more worthy of celebration than tall tales. At least the "holiday spirit" is based on humanist principles: family, friendship, charity, generosity, etc. If Christians wanted to celebrate the "actual incarnation" then THEY should probably be the ones to reject the westernized, commercialized version of Christmas. After all, didn't Jesus say to give all of your possessions to the poor and follow Him? He didn't say "Give each other gifts to celebrate my birth." As spinko mentioned, this holiday has been completely politicized since its inception. The word Christmas doesn't represent Christ to me. That's the beauty of symbolism. For me it represents a general celebration and values I appreciate as a humanist. Obviously I'm not naive enough to believe in Jesus' virgin birth derived from and combined with old Pagan mythology, but as a non-believer, I find my celebration less hypocritical than those who participate in the westernized version of Christmas (as I'm sure all theists here do).


That's fine you prefer the cozy stuff- and it's fine you write off events rooted in history as tall tales, (nearly every historical scholar today would disagree since most recognize a non-mythical view of Christ.. but then you correct yourself at the end and say it would be naive to believe such a thing).

Now my point was, most Christian's DO reject westernized, commercialized version of Christmas... how'd ya miss that..?

That's also fine you want to delude the holiday of its meaning- why not call our landing on the moon symbolism while we're making stuff up ;-)

There's nothing more that gets most of my Christian friends down during Christmas than the materialistic distraction: hence every pastor's most used phrase that day, "the TRUE meaning of the season is....[insert baby Jesus here... like God did.]"

PS- I can't help but wonder if you truly are a humanist. Calling all theists hypocritical and generalizing them just because their beliefs seems to go contrary to what a Christian humanist, like myself, would do. Indeed that would even go against "charity" that you spoke of earlier.

Also your foul treatment of a young man on this site (MouthWash) played a 'tit-for-tat- game that was comparable to a teenager's rivalry. Not an adult discussion between you, a "humanist" and a person who hasn't gone through college yet. If that was the sort of exemplification of your so called humanism then no thanks, I'll still to, and invite you to take a lesson from- Christian humanism.

exciting.
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