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Bible & Koran - Incompatibilities

Dirty.Harry
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12/19/2012 9:17:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I want to explore where the Bible and the Koran assert things that are incompatible. This is interesting because the Koran says this:

Sura 5:46:

"But why do they (the Jews) come to thee for decision, when they have the Torah in which IS the command of God."

Sura 7:156-157:

"And I will write down (my mercy) for those who are righteous and give alms and who believe in our signs; who follow the apostle, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in the Torah and the Gospel THAT IS WITH THEM.

There are many more verses that assert the authority of the Hebrew and Greek scriptures too, but these will suffice for the time being.

So having seen that Mohamed states that the Hebrew torah is from God we can now look at where other parts of the Koran contradict the torah - and if we find such contradictions then either:

1. The Koran is wrong and is not inspired but the Bible is right and inspired.
2. Both the Koran and Torah are wrong and not inspired.

The Bible of course makes no reference to the Koran because it predates it by over 1,000 years - it is the Koran that references the Bible and asserts that it has authority so if the Koran then contradicts the Bible the Koran is self contradictory and can be rejected as nothing more than a curiosity.

So does the Koran contradict the Bible?

Contradiction 1.

"Now the priest of Midian had seven daughters. And they came and drew water, and they filled the troughs to water their father"s flock. Then the shepherds came and drove them away; but Moses stood up and helped them, and watered their flock. "When they came to Reuel their father, he said, 'How is it that you have come so soon today?' "And they said, 'An Egyptian delivered us from the hand of the shepherds, and he also drew enough water for us and watered the flock.' "So he said to his daughters, 'And where is he? Why is it that you have left the man? Call him, that he may eat bread.'" (Exodus 2:16-18).

"And he [Moses] found beside them, two women keeping back their flock: 'Why do ye,' said he, 'thus?' They said, 'We shall not water till the shepherds shall have driven off; for our father is very aged'...One of them said, 'O my father, hire him: for the best thou canst hire is the strong, the trusty.' He said, 'Truly to one of these my two daughters I desire to marry thee...'" (Sura 28:23-27).

Contradiction 2.

"Mohammed is not the father of any man among you, but he is the Apostle of God, and the seal of the prophets: and God knoweth all things." (Sura 33:40) [This is saying that there will be no more prophets after Mohamed]

"And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days." (Joel 2:28-29).

"No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.'" (Acts 2:16-18).

Those two verses say that there WILL be more prophets in the end times - after Mohamed.

Contradiction 3.

" He [God] taught Adam the names of all things "(Surah 2:31).

So out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name.(Gen 2:19).

So there's just three and there are actually rather a lot of these if anyone chooses to search Google.

So there is my proof that the Koran cannot possibly be inspired and that those who claim it is are fools who should not be trusted.

Harry.
Fatihah
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12/19/2012 12:26:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 9:17:03 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
I want to explore where the Bible and the Koran assert things that are incompatible. This is interesting because the Koran says this:

Sura 5:46:

"But why do they (the Jews) come to thee for decision, when they have the Torah in which IS the command of God."

Sura 7:156-157:

"And I will write down (my mercy) for those who are righteous and give alms and who believe in our signs; who follow the apostle, the unlettered prophet, whom they find written in the Torah and the Gospel THAT IS WITH THEM.

There are many more verses that assert the authority of the Hebrew and Greek scriptures too, but these will suffice for the time being.

So having seen that Mohamed states that the Hebrew torah is from God we can now look at where other parts of the Koran contradict the torah - and if we find such contradictions then either:

1. The Koran is wrong and is not inspired but the Bible is right and inspired.
2. Both the Koran and Torah are wrong and not inspired.

The Bible of course makes no reference to the Koran because it predates it by over 1,000 years - it is the Koran that references the Bible and asserts that it has authority so if the Koran then contradicts the Bible the Koran is self contradictory and can be rejected as nothing more than a curiosity.

So does the Koran contradict the Bible?

Contradiction 1.

"Now the priest of Midian had seven daughters. And they came and drew water, and they filled the troughs to water their father"s flock. Then the shepherds came and drove them away; but Moses stood up and helped them, and watered their flock. "When they came to Reuel their father, he said, 'How is it that you have come so soon today?' "And they said, 'An Egyptian delivered us from the hand of the shepherds, and he also drew enough water for us and watered the flock.' "So he said to his daughters, 'And where is he? Why is it that you have left the man? Call him, that he may eat bread.'" (Exodus 2:16-18).

"And he [Moses] found beside them, two women keeping back their flock: 'Why do ye,' said he, 'thus?' They said, 'We shall not water till the shepherds shall have driven off; for our father is very aged'...One of them said, 'O my father, hire him: for the best thou canst hire is the strong, the trusty.' He said, 'Truly to one of these my two daughters I desire to marry thee...'" (Sura 28:23-27).

Contradiction 2.

"Mohammed is not the father of any man among you, but he is the Apostle of God, and the seal of the prophets: and God knoweth all things." (Sura 33:40) [This is saying that there will be no more prophets after Mohamed]

"And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days." (Joel 2:28-29).

"No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.'" (Acts 2:16-18).

Those two verses say that there WILL be more prophets in the end times - after Mohamed.

Contradiction 3.

" He [God] taught Adam the names of all things "(Surah 2:31).

So out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name.(Gen 2:19).

So there's just three and there are actually rather a lot of these if anyone chooses to search Google.

So there is my proof that the Koran cannot possibly be inspired and that those who claim it is are fools who should not be trusted.

Harry.

Response: The references of the Torah in the Qur'an refers to the revelation revealed to Moses(SAS). The present Bible does not contain the Torah, but a tampered version of the Torah. hus basing the authenticity of the Qur'an on the Bible is invalid, since the Bible itself has been tampered. Thus it does not hold as proof that the Qur'an is not the true word of Allah.
philochristos
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12/19/2012 12:31:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 12:26:15 PM, Fatihah wrote:
Response: The references of the Torah in the Qur'an refers to the revelation revealed to Moses(SAS). The present Bible does not contain the Torah, but a tampered version of the Torah. hus basing the authenticity of the Qur'an on the Bible is invalid, since the Bible itself has been tampered. Thus it does not hold as proof that the Qur'an is not the true word of Allah.

I don't think this solution works. The Qur'an says, in the present tense, that the Jews have the Torah. That was written around 600 CE, wasn't it? Well, we know from textual evidence what the Jews actually had at that time. The present Bible does reflect what was in the Torah around 600 CE.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Fatihah
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12/19/2012 12:51:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 12:31:34 PM, philochristos wrote:


I don't think this solution works. The Qur'an says, in the present tense, that the Jews have the Torah. That was written around 600 CE, wasn't it? Well, we know from textual evidence what the Jews actually had at that time. The present Bible does reflect what was in the Torah around 600 CE.

Response: The Qur'an does not say so in the present tense. Thus it refers to the pat revelation of the Torah, which is not contained in the Bible as an untampered scripture.
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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12/19/2012 12:55:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 12:51:10 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/19/2012 12:31:34 PM, philochristos wrote:
I don't think this solution works. The Qur'an says, in the present tense, that the Jews have the Torah. That was written around 600 CE, wasn't it? Well, we know from textual evidence what the Jews actually had at that time. The present Bible does reflect what was in the Torah around 600 CE.

Response: The Qur'an does not say so in the present tense.

How do you know?
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
philochristos
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12/19/2012 1:23:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 12:51:10 PM, Fatihah wrote:
I don't think this solution works. The Qur'an says, in the present tense, that the Jews have the Torah. That was written around 600 CE, wasn't it? Well, we know from textual evidence what the Jews actually had at that time. The present Bible does reflect what was in the Torah around 600 CE.

Response: The Qur'an does not say so in the present tense.

Is this a mistranslation, then?

Sura 5:46:

"But why do they (the Jews) come to thee for decision, when they have the Torah in which IS the command of God."
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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12/19/2012 1:49:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The historical background of the verse is that some Jews during the era of the Prophet (peace be upon him) found one of their own to be an adulterer. According to the Torah, the adulterer must be punished by stoning. If they were true believers of their religion, they would stone the adulterer. What they did instead was to go to the Prophet and ask him about his opinion on what the punishment should be. Thus the Quran, by referring to this event, says (to paraphrase), "Why do the come to the Prophet when they have their own laws?"

In other words, they were hypocrites and did not believe in the Torah. They merely sought an excuse to avoid punishing someone with accordance to the laws of their religion. The Quran later explained that Muslims should follow the Islamic laws in their entirety, and not refer to the older scriptures.
Mirza
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12/19/2012 1:54:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
To the OP: Funny how to point out small differences (there are major ones, by the way) between the Bible and the Quran, yet the Bible itself is even more contradictory! So why don't you start ignoring the contradiction theory?
Fatihah
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12/19/2012 2:03:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 12:55:37 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
>

How do you know?

Response: Because the present tense is not used.
Fatihah
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12/19/2012 2:06:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 1:23:07 PM, philochristos wrote:


Sura 5:46:

"But why do they (the Jews) come to thee for decision, when they have the Torah in which IS the command of God."

Response: A mistranslation is an understatement. It's more of an interpolation. Verse 5:46 says nothing of the sort. You can actually check yourself and verify yourself. I have no idea where the OP got that translation from, if it is one.
Mirza
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12/19/2012 2:11:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 2:06:32 PM, Fatihah wrote:
Response: A mistranslation is an understatement. It's more of an interpolation. Verse 5:46 says nothing of the sort. You can actually check yourself and verify yourself. I have no idea where the OP got that translation from, if it is one.
It's verse 5:43.
DudeWithoutTheE
Posts: 53
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12/19/2012 2:12:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
On the OP - of course they're incompatible. The Qu'ran makes a point of saying exactly how Christianity is wrong.

Fatihah is correct. Here is what Qu'ran 5:46 says:

And We sent, following in their footsteps, Isa, the son of Maryam, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Injeel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous.

Wherever the quote in the OP comes from, it's not Qu'ran 5:46.
DudeWithoutTheE
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12/19/2012 2:17:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Thank you Mirza.

Quran.com has the same English translation - in present tense? Your historical context argument makes sense, but it the verse does appear to assert that the Torah, as held by the Jews of the time, WAS the word of God at that point. Al-Qu'ran explicitly does not say 'in which they believe the judgement of Allah to reside,' it says in which it does reside.
Fatihah
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12/19/2012 2:18:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 2:11:26 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/19/2012 2:06:32 PM, Fatihah wrote:
Response: A mistranslation is an understatement. It's more of an interpolation. Verse 5:46 says nothing of the sort. You can actually check yourself and verify yourself. I have no idea where the OP got that translation from, if it is one.
It's verse 5:43.

Shurkran.
Mirza
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12/19/2012 2:20:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 2:17:57 PM, DudeWithoutTheE wrote:
Thank you Mirza.

Quran.com has the same English translation - in present tense? Your historical context argument makes sense, but it the verse does appear to assert that the Torah, as held by the Jews of the time, WAS the word of God at that point. Al-Qu'ran explicitly does not say 'in which they believe the judgement of Allah to reside,' it says in which it does reside.
From what we know from the Quran, the Jews who did not follow the Quran, but the Torah instead, were praised for it, because the Quran was not in its complete form yet. Once it was entirely revealed, the Quran made it clear that it is one step in authority above the Torah, Psalm, and the Gospel.

Muslims can follow parts of the Bible that do not contradict Islam.
Dirty.Harry
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12/19/2012 2:30:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 12:26:15 PM, Fatihah wrote:

Response: The references of the Torah in the Qur'an refers to the revelation revealed to Moses(SAS). The present Bible does not contain the Torah, but a tampered version of the Torah. hus basing the authenticity of the Qur'an on the Bible is invalid, since the Bible itself has been tampered. Thus it does not hold as proof that the Qur'an is not the true word of Allah.

My knowledge of the Bible is rather more than average Fatihah and I'm afraid your desperate claim above is untenable.

What evidence do you have that the version of the Hebrew scriptures available to Mohamed in 600 AD is the correct version or that there ever was a different version at all?

What evidence do you have that there ever was a different version at that time?

The Jews maintained these books, they have steadfastly preserved and copied these for thousands of years and have done so faithfully.

The masoretic text we use today (from which we derive English and other translations) is in agreement with the most ancient manuscripts - there is absolutely no substance to the claim you make.

Can you show me any manuscript or fragment that is in accord with the Koran?

This is desperation in the extreme and you have accidentally stumbled upon someone who has a considerable knowledge of this subject and its history.

Your move...

Harry.
Dirty.Harry
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12/19/2012 2:31:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 1:23:07 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/19/2012 12:51:10 PM, Fatihah wrote:
I don't think this solution works. The Qur'an says, in the present tense, that the Jews have the Torah. That was written around 600 CE, wasn't it? Well, we know from textual evidence what the Jews actually had at that time. The present Bible does reflect what was in the Torah around 600 CE.

Response: The Qur'an does not say so in the present tense.

Is this a mistranslation, then?

Sura 5:46:

"But why do they (the Jews) come to thee for decision, when they have the Torah in which IS the command of God."

Nice one....!

Harry.
Fatihah
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12/19/2012 2:45:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 2:30:20 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:


My knowledge of the Bible is rather more than average Fatihah and I'm afraid your desperate claim above is untenable.

What evidence do you have that the version of the Hebrew scriptures available to Mohamed in 600 AD is the correct version or that there ever was a different version at all?

What evidence do you have that there ever was a different version at that time?

The Jews maintained these books, they have steadfastly preserved and copied these for thousands of years and have done so faithfully.

The masoretic text we use today (from which we derive English and other translations) is in agreement with the most ancient manuscripts - there is absolutely no substance to the claim you make.

Can you show me any manuscript or fragment that is in accord with the Koran?

This is desperation in the extreme and you have accidentally stumbled upon someone who has a considerable knowledge of this subject and its history.

Your move...

Harry.

Response: The very Torah that you claim to be preserved can be shown to be tampered without the Qur'an. The fact that it's filled with many contradictions and discrepancy shows that it is not the word or inspired word of Allah(God).

Examples of discrepancies:

Book of Genesis 1:3-5 God creates light on the 1st day

verses 14-19 God creates the sun and stars on the 4h day.

(This makes no sense. The cause of light cannot come after the light. )

Leviticus 14:49-43- to clean a house, sprinkle it with the blood of dead birds.

Just a few.

Thus the present torah is clearly not the word or inspired word of God.
Dirty.Harry
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12/19/2012 2:46:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 1:49:08 PM, Mirza wrote:
The historical background of the verse is that some Jews during the era of the Prophet (peace be upon him) found one of their own to be an adulterer. According to the Torah, the adulterer must be punished by stoning. If they were true believers of their religion, they would stone the adulterer. What they did instead was to go to the Prophet and ask him about his opinion on what the punishment should be. Thus the Quran, by referring to this event, says (to paraphrase), "Why do the come to the Prophet when they have their own laws?"

In other words, they were hypocrites and did not believe in the Torah. They merely sought an excuse to avoid punishing someone with accordance to the laws of their religion. The Quran later explained that Muslims should follow the Islamic laws in their entirety, and not refer to the older scriptures.

So what? nobody will dispute that the Israelite tribes frequently deviated from scripture - this is well documented IN that scripture.

The point being discussed is the what is written in the Koran differs in important ways from what is written in scripture YET the Koran asserts that the Hebrew scriptures are authoritative.

That the Koran is wrong and uninspired is the only way to resolve this.

Harry.
Mirza
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12/19/2012 2:48:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 2:46:01 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
So what?
Lecturing you. Not much.

nobody will dispute that the Israelite tribes frequently deviated from scripture - this is well documented IN that scripture.
Didn't say that either so...

The point being discussed is the what is written in the Koran differs in important ways from what is written in scripture
Yes, and for very good reasons! I'm glad I don't have to follow a scripture that tells stories of manslaughter on innocents being commanded by God!

YET the Koran asserts that the Hebrew scriptures are authoritative.
For the Jews and BEFORE the Quran was complete.

That the Koran is wrong and uninspired is the only way to resolve this.
I don't think you know how to resolve anything, but that's another discussion.
Dirty.Harry
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12/19/2012 2:50:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 1:54:53 PM, Mirza wrote:
To the OP: Funny how to point out small differences (there are major ones, by the way) between the Bible and the Quran, yet the Bible itself is even more contradictory! So why don't you start ignoring the contradiction theory?

Feel free to bring more to our attention.

Whether the Bible is inspired or not cannot help you - the fact that the Koran disagrees with the Bible yet at the same time asserts that the Bible is the word of God is proof that the Koran is not inspired by any God.

Harry.
Mirza
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12/19/2012 2:54:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 2:50:53 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
Feel free to bring more to our attention.

Whether the Bible is inspired or not cannot help you - the fact that the Koran disagrees with the Bible yet at the same time asserts that the Bible is the word of God is proof that the Koran is not inspired by any God.
It asserts that it WAS the Word of God, and that it WAS the true guidance. And it elaborates numerous times what it means by the former scriptures being the word of God.

You don't understand the Quran and its structure. You take every word for granted as if there were no historical or textual context. That's not very good, eh?
stubs
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12/19/2012 2:56:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 2:45:31 PM, Fatihah wrote:
Examples of discrepancies:

Book of Genesis 1:3-5 God creates light on the 1st day

verses 14-19 God creates the sun and stars on the 4h day.

(This makes no sense. The cause of light cannot come after the light. )


Show that the light on the first day is the cause of the sun and stars. Many have interpreted it as God is the light. Still some others say that the 4th day was merely God giving meaning to the sun and stars.

Leviticus 14:49-43- to clean a house, sprinkle it with the blood of dead birds.

Just a few.

Thus the present torah is clearly not the word or inspired word of God.
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Posts: 2,900
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12/19/2012 3:01:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 2:03:39 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/19/2012 12:55:37 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
How do you know?

Response: Because the present tense is not used.

Do show.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
Fatihah
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12/19/2012 3:05:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 2:56:30 PM, stubs wrote:
At 12/19/2012 2:45:31 PM, Fatihah wrote:
Examples of discrepancies:

Book of Genesis 1:3-5 God creates light on the 1st day

verses 14-19 God creates the sun and stars on the 4h day.

(This makes no sense. The cause of light cannot come after the light. )


Show that the light on the first day is the cause of the sun and stars. Many have interpreted it as God is the light. Still some others say that the 4th day was merely God giving meaning to the sun and stars.

Leviticus 14:49-43- to clean a house, sprinkle it with the blood of dead birds.

Just a few.

Thus the present torah is clearly not the word or inspired word of God.

Response: Many would give such an interpretation to disguise the discrepancy in the scripture.
Fatihah
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12/19/2012 3:07:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 3:01:39 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 12/19/2012 2:03:39 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/19/2012 12:55:37 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
How do you know?

Response: Because the present tense is not used.

Do show.

Response: If you know what the present tense form of a word is and you see that it's not there, then what would I need to show, unless you do not know what present and past tense words are?
Dirty.Harry
Posts: 1,559
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12/19/2012 3:14:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 2:45:31 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/19/2012 2:30:20 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:


My knowledge of the Bible is rather more than average Fatihah and I'm afraid your desperate claim above is untenable.

What evidence do you have that the version of the Hebrew scriptures available to Mohamed in 600 AD is the correct version or that there ever was a different version at all?

What evidence do you have that there ever was a different version at that time?

The Jews maintained these books, they have steadfastly preserved and copied these for thousands of years and have done so faithfully.

The masoretic text we use today (from which we derive English and other translations) is in agreement with the most ancient manuscripts - there is absolutely no substance to the claim you make.

Can you show me any manuscript or fragment that is in accord with the Koran?

This is desperation in the extreme and you have accidentally stumbled upon someone who has a considerable knowledge of this subject and its history.

Your move...

Harry.

Response: The very Torah that you claim to be preserved can be shown to be tampered without the Qur'an. The fact that it's filled with many contradictions and discrepancy shows that it is not the word or inspired word of Allah(God).

Examples of discrepancies:

Book of Genesis 1:3-5 God creates light on the 1st day

verses 14-19 God creates the sun and stars on the 4h day.

(This makes no sense. The cause of light cannot come after the light. )

Leviticus 14:49-43- to clean a house, sprinkle it with the blood of dead birds.

Just a few.

Thus the present torah is clearly not the word or inspired word of God.

There is no contradiction at all between Gen 1:3-5 and 1:14-19 because the Bible - which you can easily verify - often applies more than one meaning to a word. The "light" referred to in Gen 1:3-5 clearly is not a reference to the Sun. In the book of John we read:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it."

So what evidence is there that there ever was a Hebrew torah which agrees with the present day Koran?

Harry.
DudeWithoutTheE
Posts: 53
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12/19/2012 3:15:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 3:07:39 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/19/2012 3:01:39 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 12/19/2012 2:03:39 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/19/2012 12:55:37 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
How do you know?

Response: Because the present tense is not used.

Do show.

Response: If you know what the present tense form of a word is and you see that it's not there, then what would I need to show, unless you do not know what present and past tense words are?

The issue is that do, is and have ARE present tense forms. And we see that they are there.
Dirty.Harry
Posts: 1,559
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12/19/2012 3:19:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 2:48:47 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/19/2012 2:46:01 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
So what?
Lecturing you. Not much.

nobody will dispute that the Israelite tribes frequently deviated from scripture - this is well documented IN that scripture.
Didn't say that either so...

The point being discussed is the what is written in the Koran differs in important ways from what is written in scripture
Yes, and for very good reasons! I'm glad I don't have to follow a scripture that tells stories of manslaughter on innocents being commanded by God!

YET the Koran asserts that the Hebrew scriptures are authoritative.
For the Jews and BEFORE the Quran was complete.

That the Koran is wrong and uninspired is the only way to resolve this.
I don't think you know how to resolve anything, but that's another discussion.

Do you share the view proposed by Fatihah that Mohamed had a "genuine" copy of the Hebrew scriptures in 600AD of which there is no evidence or reference to anywhere?

Harry.
Fatihah
Posts: 7,714
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12/19/2012 3:21:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/19/2012 3:14:09 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 12/19/2012 2:45:31 PM, Fatihah wrote:
At 12/19/2012 2:30:20 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:


My knowledge of the Bible is rather more than average Fatihah and I'm afraid your desperate claim above is untenable.

What evidence do you have that the version of the Hebrew scriptures available to Mohamed in 600 AD is the correct version or that there ever was a different version at all?

What evidence do you have that there ever was a different version at that time?

The Jews maintained these books, they have steadfastly preserved and copied these for thousands of years and have done so faithfully.

The masoretic text we use today (from which we derive English and other translations) is in agreement with the most ancient manuscripts - there is absolutely no substance to the claim you make.

Can you show me any manuscript or fragment that is in accord with the Koran?

This is desperation in the extreme and you have accidentally stumbled upon someone who has a considerable knowledge of this subject and its history.

Your move...

Harry.

Response: The very Torah that you claim to be preserved can be shown to be tampered without the Qur'an. The fact that it's filled with many contradictions and discrepancy shows that it is not the word or inspired word of Allah(God).

Examples of discrepancies:

Book of Genesis 1:3-5 God creates light on the 1st day

verses 14-19 God creates the sun and stars on the 4h day.

(This makes no sense. The cause of light cannot come after the light. )

Leviticus 14:49-43- to clean a house, sprinkle it with the blood of dead birds.

Just a few.

Thus the present torah is clearly not the word or inspired word of God.

There is no contradiction at all between Gen 1:3-5 and 1:14-19 because the Bible - which you can easily verify - often applies more than one meaning to a word. The "light" referred to in Gen 1:3-5 clearly is not a reference to the Sun. In the book of John we read:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it."

So what evidence is there that there ever was a Hebrew torah which agrees with the present day Koran?

Harry.

Response: The better question is how do you address only one discrepancy when I clearly presented 2?

Leviticus 14:49-53 to clean a house, sprinle it with the blood of dead birds.

The answer is obvious why you dodged it.

Secondly, if the light is not the sunlight, then what is it? You provided no answer. So your argument fails again.

Thus the clear discrepancies in the Hebrew scriptures clearly show it has been tapered.

BTW, I could fill this thread with dozens of discrepancies, but I'll be merciful for now.