Total Posts:105|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

What would it take to shake your faith?

UltimateSkeptic
Posts: 23
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/29/2012 5:03:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Just curious to what it'd take?
Finding life elsewhere/finding another earth-like planet?
or Aliens coming here and explaining things to us that we've yet to understand?
Or For someone else's religion to be proved true?

Just curious, what would it take?
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/29/2012 5:22:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2012 5:03:50 PM, UltimateSkeptic wrote:
Just curious to what it'd take?
Finding life elsewhere/finding another earth-like planet?
or Aliens coming here and explaining things to us that we've yet to understand?
Or For someone else's religion to be proved true?

Just curious, what would it take?

I don't how anything aliens could do or say would shake my faith. If some other religion were proved true, and that religion contradicts Christianity, then that would shake my faith.

I think at a minimum, if all of these things are true, then Christianity is true, and if just one of these things is false, then Christianity is false.

1. There is one God.
2. God has given us a moral law.
3. We break the moral law.
4. God judges people for violating the moral law.
5. Jesus is the messiah/king.
6. Jesus died for sins.
7. Jesus was raised from the dead.

If any one of those things could be shown to be false, that would shake my faith. But some of them are connected in such a way that if one is false, then another is false, and if one is true, then another is true. For example, 3 couldn't be true unless 2 was true. And 7 couldn't be true if 1 was false. If 2 is false, then so is 6. Etc. Likewise, if 4 is true, then 1 is true, etc. So it's possible to reach an impasse. For example, if somebody showed me that 2 was probably false, but I had good reason to think 6 was probably true, then we'd be at an impasse, and I'd just scratch my head. Depending on how sure I was that 6 was true, I might just assume there's a flaw in your argument against 2 that I just haven't spotted. So it would be best to show that one of these is false and that whatever others follow from that one are also false, or at least that there's no reason to think they're true.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
UltimateSkeptic
Posts: 23
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/29/2012 5:33:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2012 5:22:40 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/29/2012 5:03:50 PM, UltimateSkeptic wrote:
Just curious to what it'd take?
Finding life elsewhere/finding another earth-like planet?
or Aliens coming here and explaining things to us that we've yet to understand?
Or For someone else's religion to be proved true?

Just curious, what would it take?

I don't how anything aliens could do or say would shake my faith. If some other religion were proved true, and that religion contradicts Christianity, then that would shake my faith.

I think at a minimum, if all of these things are true, then Christianity is true, and if just one of these things is false, then Christianity is false.

1. There is one God.
2. God has given us a moral law.
3. We break the moral law.
4. God judges people for violating the moral law.
5. Jesus is the messiah/king.
6. Jesus died for sins.
7. Jesus was raised from the dead.

If any one of those things could be shown to be false, that would shake my faith. But some of them are connected in such a way that if one is false, then another is false, and if one is true, then another is true. For example, 3 couldn't be true unless 2 was true. And 7 couldn't be true if 1 was false. If 2 is false, then so is 6. Etc. Likewise, if 4 is true, then 1 is true, etc. So it's possible to reach an impasse. For example, if somebody showed me that 2 was probably false, but I had good reason to think 6 was probably true, then we'd be at an impasse, and I'd just scratch my head. Depending on how sure I was that 6 was true, I might just assume there's a flaw in your argument against 2 that I just haven't spotted. So it would be best to show that one of these is false and that whatever others follow from that one are also false, or at least that there's no reason to think they're true.

What if an alien came down and said that they were the ones who started our life? Of course, this is me delving in a completely hypothetical situation. But I found myself wondering what it'd take to shake someone's faith, and (other than personal revelation) I found very few ideas other than someone else's religion being right.

Just curious, with #2 are you suggesting that the moral code we supposedly got from God, came through The Bible?
stubs
Posts: 1,887
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/29/2012 5:35:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2012 5:22:40 PM, philochristos wrote:
If some other religion were proved true, and that religion contradicts Christianity, then that would shake my faith.

Hahah yeah that would probably shake my faith quite a bit too :P
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Posts: 2,900
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/29/2012 5:39:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2012 5:03:50 PM, UltimateSkeptic wrote:
Just curious to what it'd take?
Finding life elsewhere/finding another earth-like planet?

Probably not.

or Aliens coming here and explaining things to us that we've yet to understand?

No.

Or For someone else's religion to be proved true?

Depending on the religion, possibly.

Just curious, what would it take?

Richard Dawkins.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/29/2012 5:43:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2012 5:33:38 PM, UltimateSkeptic wrote:

What if an alien came down and said that they were the ones who started our life?

I'd have a few options. Maybe they're lying. Or maybe they came to this belief falsely. But if they could show me it's true, then I might have to either reinterpret the Bible (e.g., I'd have to reinterpret what it means to be created in the image of God), or give up my belief that the Bible is the word of God. But I don't see how it would undermine any of those seven points above, so I don't think that would make me completely abandon Christianity. At most, it would just make me change my theology.

But I found myself wondering what it'd take to shake someone's faith, and (other than personal revelation) I found very few ideas other than someone else's religion being right.

I think the efforts of a lot of skeptics and non-believers is misguided because they attack the fringes of Christianity and not the core. For example, they'll show Bible contradictions, which if successful only undermines infallibility, but it doesn't undermine any of those seven points. I think if you really want to prove that Christianity is false, you have to attack one of those seven points. If you're raising some objection against Christianity that is not relevant to those points, then you're just attacking the fringes of Christianity, and not the core. Christianity could still be true even if your argument is sound.

That's what you have to ask yourself: If I'm right about X, Y, or Z, could Christianity still be true?

Just curious, with #2 are you suggesting that the moral code we supposedly got from God, came through The Bible?

No, all I'm saying is that morality--the difference between right and wrong--is grounded in God somehow. God imposes moral obligations on us. I think that would be true whether the Bible existed or not.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
UltimateSkeptic
Posts: 23
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/29/2012 5:43:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2012 5:39:41 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 12/29/2012 5:03:50 PM, UltimateSkeptic wrote:
Just curious to what it'd take?
Finding life elsewhere/finding another earth-like planet?

Probably not.

or Aliens coming here and explaining things to us that we've yet to understand?

No.

Or For someone else's religion to be proved true?

Depending on the religion, possibly.

Just curious, what would it take?

Richard Dawkins.

Richard does a great job, lol.
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/29/2012 5:45:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2012 5:22:40 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/29/2012 5:03:50 PM, UltimateSkeptic wrote:
Just curious to what it'd take?
Finding life elsewhere/finding another earth-like planet?
or Aliens coming here and explaining things to us that we've yet to understand?
Or For someone else's religion to be proved true?

Just curious, what would it take?

I don't how anything aliens could do or say would shake my faith. If some other religion were proved true, and that religion contradicts Christianity, then that would shake my faith.

I think at a minimum, if all of these things are true, then Christianity is true, and if just one of these things is false, then Christianity is false.

1. There is one God.
2. God has given us a moral law.
3. We break the moral law.
4. God judges people for violating the moral law.
5. Jesus is the messiah/king.
6. Jesus died for sins.
7. Jesus was raised from the dead.

If any one of those things could be shown to be false, that would shake my faith. But some of them are connected in such a way that if one is false, then another is false, and if one is true, then another is true. For example, 3 couldn't be true unless 2 was true. And 7 couldn't be true if 1 was false. If 2 is false, then so is 6. Etc. Likewise, if 4 is true, then 1 is true, etc. So it's possible to reach an impasse. For example, if somebody showed me that 2 was probably false, but I had good reason to think 6 was probably true, then we'd be at an impasse, and I'd just scratch my head. Depending on how sure I was that 6 was true, I might just assume there's a flaw in your argument against 2 that I just haven't spotted. So it would be best to show that one of these is false and that whatever others follow from that one are also false, or at least that there's no reason to think they're true.

Just a random question. Do you believe that God transcends logic?
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/29/2012 5:53:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2012 5:45:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
Just a random question. Do you believe that God transcends logic?

No.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/29/2012 6:02:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2012 5:53:23 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/29/2012 5:45:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
Just a random question. Do you believe that God transcends logic?

No.

Then what makes him God? If God is omnipotent, then that means his abilities are unrestricted, and even concepts that are absurd to human beings must be possible to him. Logic is a restriction.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/29/2012 6:04:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2012 6:02:25 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/29/2012 5:53:23 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/29/2012 5:45:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
Just a random question. Do you believe that God transcends logic?

No.

Then what makes him God? If God is omnipotent, then that means his abilities are unrestricted, and even concepts that are absurd to human beings must be possible to him. Logic is a restriction.

There's various definitions of omnipotence. One view is that God can actualize any state of affairs that's logically possible.
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
YYW
Posts: 36,310
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/29/2012 6:13:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2012 5:53:23 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/29/2012 5:45:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
Just a random question. Do you believe that God transcends logic?

No.

Explain. In depth, please.
Tsar of DDO
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/29/2012 6:14:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2012 6:04:51 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 12/29/2012 6:02:25 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/29/2012 5:53:23 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/29/2012 5:45:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
Just a random question. Do you believe that God transcends logic?

No.

Then what makes him God? If God is omnipotent, then that means his abilities are unrestricted, and even concepts that are absurd to human beings must be possible to him. Logic is a restriction.

There's various definitions of omnipotence. One view is that God can actualize any state of affairs that's logically possible.

No there aren't. There's one definition of omnipotence, and everything else is just "multi"-potence. "All" is an absolute quantity with an unambiguous meaning. All power therefore means all power, including power that is apparently illogical. It is on this principal that the paradox of the stone was argued. If you want to make logic a preclusion on the supposed divine, then you're going to have to use a term that doesn't suggest the word "all."
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Composer
Posts: 5,858
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/29/2012 6:15:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2012 5:22:40 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/29/2012 5:03:50 PM, UltimateSkeptic wrote:
Just curious to what it'd take?
Finding life elsewhere/finding another earth-like planet?
or Aliens coming here and explaining things to us that we've yet to understand?
Or For someone else's religion to be proved true?

Just curious, what would it take?

I don't how anything aliens could do or say would shake my faith. If some other religion were proved true, and that religion contradicts Christianity, then that would shake my faith.

At 12/29/2012 5:22:40 PM, philochristos wrote:
I think at a minimum, if all of these things are true, then Christianity is true, and if just one of these things is false, then Christianity is false.

At 12/29/2012 5:22:40 PM, philochristos wrote:
1. There is one God.

Says who & upon what basis?

At 12/29/2012 5:22:40 PM, philochristos wrote:
2. God has given us a moral law.

Says who & upon what basis?

At 12/29/2012 5:22:40 PM, philochristos wrote:
3. We break the moral law.

I thought your god(s) gave you a " Free-Will ", so why do you Freely choose to disobey & malignantly sin?

At 12/29/2012 5:22:40 PM, philochristos wrote:
4. God judges people for violating the moral law.

Says who & upon what basis?

At 12/29/2012 5:22:40 PM, philochristos wrote:
5. Jesus is the messiah/king.

Says who & upon what basis?

At 12/29/2012 5:22:40 PM, philochristos wrote:
6. Jesus died for sins.

Says who & upon what basis?

Even the bible Story book refutes that notion - e.g. Deut. 24:16 & Ezek. 18:20!

At 12/29/2012 5:22:40 PM, philochristos wrote:
7. Jesus was raised from the dead.

Says who & upon what basis?

At 12/29/2012 5:22:40 PM, philochristos wrote:
If any one of those things could be shown to be false, that would shake my faith.

Faith is an intangible, and there is no measurement to compare the Faith of one Cult Group of dupes to another!

Faith is in fact the ability to deceive onesself that something literally exists; when the legitimate evidence to sustain that is zero!
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/29/2012 6:33:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2012 6:02:25 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/29/2012 5:53:23 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/29/2012 5:45:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
Just a random question. Do you believe that God transcends logic?

No.

Then what makes him God? If God is omnipotent, then that means his abilities are unrestricted, and even concepts that are absurd to human beings must be possible to him. Logic is a restriction.

If God "can't" make colorless green ideas sleep furiously that doesn't mean that he's not omnipotent.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
MouthWash
Posts: 2,607
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/29/2012 6:34:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2012 6:02:25 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/29/2012 5:53:23 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/29/2012 5:45:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
Just a random question. Do you believe that God transcends logic?

No.

Then what makes him God? If God is omnipotent, then that means his abilities are unrestricted, and even concepts that are absurd to human beings must be possible to him. Logic is a restriction.

I don't think you quite understand what logic is...
"Well, that gives whole new meaning to my assassination. If I was going to die anyway, perhaps I should leave the Bolsheviks' descendants some Christmas cookies instead of breaking their dishes and vodka bottles in their sleep." -Tsar Nicholas II (YYW)
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/29/2012 6:36:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2012 6:34:21 PM, MouthWash wrote:
At 12/29/2012 6:02:25 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/29/2012 5:53:23 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/29/2012 5:45:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
Just a random question. Do you believe that God transcends logic?

No.

Then what makes him God? If God is omnipotent, then that means his abilities are unrestricted, and even concepts that are absurd to human beings must be possible to him. Logic is a restriction.

I don't think you quite understand what logic is...

Yeah...
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/29/2012 6:45:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2012 6:02:25 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/29/2012 5:53:23 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/29/2012 5:45:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
Just a random question. Do you believe that God transcends logic?

No.

Then what makes him God? If God is omnipotent, then that means his abilities are unrestricted, and even concepts that are absurd to human beings must be possible to him. Logic is a restriction.

I don't subscribe to that definition of omnipotence.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
YYW
Posts: 36,310
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/29/2012 6:47:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2012 6:45:29 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/29/2012 6:02:25 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/29/2012 5:53:23 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/29/2012 5:45:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
Just a random question. Do you believe that God transcends logic?

No.

Then what makes him God? If God is omnipotent, then that means his abilities are unrestricted, and even concepts that are absurd to human beings must be possible to him. Logic is a restriction.

I don't subscribe to that definition of omnipotence.

Explain this too. In great detail. Please.
Tsar of DDO
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/29/2012 6:48:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2012 6:13:22 PM, YYW wrote:
At 12/29/2012 5:53:23 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/29/2012 5:45:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
Just a random question. Do you believe that God transcends logic?

No.

Explain. In depth, please.

I'm not sure what there is to explain. Besides that, I'm at a hockey game on my iPhone. If you'll be specific about what you want explained, I'll respond later when I get home.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/29/2012 6:50:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2012 6:33:01 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 12/29/2012 6:02:25 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/29/2012 5:53:23 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/29/2012 5:45:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
Just a random question. Do you believe that God transcends logic?

No.

Then what makes him God? If God is omnipotent, then that means his abilities are unrestricted, and even concepts that are absurd to human beings must be possible to him. Logic is a restriction.

If God "can't" make colorless green ideas sleep furiously that doesn't mean that he's not omnipotent.

Oh really? Why?

It seems to me like you're using our own abilities to conceive of things as a limitation for God's actions. If you're going to say that the faculties of God - the divine, the ultimate, the almighty - are limited to what we can conceive, then you're describing a very weak and human-esque being. Omnipotence means all power. All power means all power.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/29/2012 6:50:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2012 6:45:29 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/29/2012 6:02:25 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/29/2012 5:53:23 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/29/2012 5:45:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
Just a random question. Do you believe that God transcends logic?

No.

Then what makes him God? If God is omnipotent, then that means his abilities are unrestricted, and even concepts that are absurd to human beings must be possible to him. Logic is a restriction.

I don't subscribe to that definition of omnipotence.

That's the only definition of omnipotence. See my response to nur-ab-sal.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/29/2012 6:51:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2012 6:14:36 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/29/2012 6:04:51 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 12/29/2012 6:02:25 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/29/2012 5:53:23 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/29/2012 5:45:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
Just a random question. Do you believe that God transcends logic?

No.

Then what makes him God? If God is omnipotent, then that means his abilities are unrestricted, and even concepts that are absurd to human beings must be possible to him. Logic is a restriction.

There's various definitions of omnipotence. One view is that God can actualize any state of affairs that's logically possible.

No there aren't. There's one definition of omnipotence, and everything else is just "multi"-potence. "All" is an absolute quantity with an unambiguous meaning. All power therefore means all power, including power that is apparently illogical. It is on this principal that the paradox of the stone was argued. If you want to make logic a preclusion on the supposed divine, then you're going to have to use a term that doesn't suggest the word "all."

You're just quibbling over the definition of a word. I think God can do all things logically possible. If that's not what you call omnipotent, fine, call it something else.
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
philochristos
Posts: 2,614
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/29/2012 6:53:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2012 6:50:56 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/29/2012 6:45:29 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/29/2012 6:02:25 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/29/2012 5:53:23 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/29/2012 5:45:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
Just a random question. Do you believe that God transcends logic?

No.

Then what makes him God? If God is omnipotent, then that means his abilities are unrestricted, and even concepts that are absurd to human beings must be possible to him. Logic is a restriction.

I don't subscribe to that definition of omnipotence.

That's the only definition of omnipotence. See my response to nur-ab-sal.

No, it's not
"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/29/2012 6:55:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2012 6:50:06 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/29/2012 6:33:01 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 12/29/2012 6:02:25 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/29/2012 5:53:23 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/29/2012 5:45:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
Just a random question. Do you believe that God transcends logic?

No.

Then what makes him God? If God is omnipotent, then that means his abilities are unrestricted, and even concepts that are absurd to human beings must be possible to him. Logic is a restriction.

If God "can't" make colorless green ideas sleep furiously that doesn't mean that he's not omnipotent.

Oh really? Why?

It seems to me like you're using our own abilities to conceive of things as a limitation for God's actions. If you're going to say that the faculties of God - the divine, the ultimate, the almighty - are limited to what we can conceive, then you're describing a very weak and human-esque being. Omnipotence means all power. All power means all power.

It's not a "limit" when one "can't" do "something" isn't even an action. It's not a thing. It's nonsense; just a bunch of words strung together in gramatically correct form. It's same as saying God can't adadfeaefageafe therefore he's not omnipotent.

And nothing much in particular hangs on the word "omnipotent" any way. We could just say the most powerful being possible.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
RationalMadman
Posts: 354
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/29/2012 6:58:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2012 5:03:50 PM, UltimateSkeptic wrote:
Just curious to what it'd take?
Finding life elsewhere/finding another earth-like planet?
or Aliens coming here and explaining things to us that we've yet to understand?
Or For someone else's religion to be proved true?

Just curious, what would it take?

Unless you did brain lobotomy or similar operation on me. I shall remain agnostic deist to my death.
The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

We didn't fight our way to the top of the food chain to be f***ng vegetarians.
Composer
Posts: 5,858
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/29/2012 6:59:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2012 6:50:06 PM, 000ike wrote:
If you're going to say that the faculties of God - the divine, the ultimate, the almighty - are limited to what we can conceive, then you're describing a very weak and human-esque being.

ALL Supernatural god(s) are 100% of human conceptual origin and therefore limited to human reasoning!

At 12/29/2012 6:50:06 PM, 000ike wrote:
Omnipotence means all power. All power means all power.

Can ALL Supernatural god(s) make a mountain bigger than they can move?

If NOT, then they are NOT Omnipotent!

&

e.g. re: the biblical Story book god -

The Lord was with the men of Judah. They conquered29 the hill country, but they could not30 conquer the people living in the coastal plain, because they had chariots with iron-rimmed wheels.31 (Judges 1:19) NET Story book

So obviously Story book god is impotent in the coastal plain and is impotent against iron-wheel rimmed chariots and is impotent against moi and we successfully manage to ' keep out ' ALL Supernatural gods, especially & including your imagined ones? LOL!

Supernatural gods only literally exist in the duped corrupt minds of a few and recent Data shows even those few are dwindling in numbers as we speak, LOL!

Your mentor & personal successful literal Saviour, moi!

Me Composer the ongoing successful & vindicated Cult buster!
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/29/2012 7:05:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2012 6:55:10 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 12/29/2012 6:50:06 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/29/2012 6:33:01 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 12/29/2012 6:02:25 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/29/2012 5:53:23 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/29/2012 5:45:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
Just a random question. Do you believe that God transcends logic?

No.

Then what makes him God? If God is omnipotent, then that means his abilities are unrestricted, and even concepts that are absurd to human beings must be possible to him. Logic is a restriction.

If God "can't" make colorless green ideas sleep furiously that doesn't mean that he's not omnipotent.

Oh really? Why?

It seems to me like you're using our own abilities to conceive of things as a limitation for God's actions. If you're going to say that the faculties of God - the divine, the ultimate, the almighty - are limited to what we can conceive, then you're describing a very weak and human-esque being. Omnipotence means all power. All power means all power.

It's not a "limit" when one "can't" do "something" isn't even an action. It's not a thing. It's nonsense; just a bunch of words strung together in gramatically correct form. It's same as saying God can't adadfeaefageafe therefore he's not omnipotent.

And nothing much in particular hangs on the word "omnipotent" any way. We could just say the most powerful being possible.

You didn't actually respond to my argument. You just repeated yourself and this time substituted adfdfdfkjslaskd..... Things have meaning to us, and things must have meaning to this God of yours. Are all our senses of meaning and understandings equal? Of course not, then he wouldn't be divine. To form parameters on his ability using the precepts of what we can conceive lowers him to our level. God cannot be Godly yet subordinate to our logic.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Nur-Ab-Sal
Posts: 1,637
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/29/2012 7:23:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2012 6:14:36 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/29/2012 6:04:51 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 12/29/2012 6:02:25 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/29/2012 5:53:23 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/29/2012 5:45:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
Just a random question. Do you believe that God transcends logic?

No.

Then what makes him God? If God is omnipotent, then that means his abilities are unrestricted, and even concepts that are absurd to human beings must be possible to him. Logic is a restriction.

There's various definitions of omnipotence. One view is that God can actualize any state of affairs that's logically possible.

No there aren't. There's one definition of omnipotence, and everything else is just "multi"-potence. "All" is an absolute quantity with an unambiguous meaning. All power therefore means all power, including power that is apparently illogical. It is on this principal that the paradox of the stone was argued. If you want to make logic a preclusion on the supposed divine, then you're going to have to use a term that doesn't suggest the word "all."

Sure, if that's what you want to call omnipotence, call it that. That isn't how classical theism understands omnipotence -- the ability to actualize any potential that is "compatible with existence."
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/29/2012 7:35:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2012 7:05:09 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/29/2012 6:55:10 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 12/29/2012 6:50:06 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/29/2012 6:33:01 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 12/29/2012 6:02:25 PM, 000ike wrote:
At 12/29/2012 5:53:23 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 12/29/2012 5:45:35 PM, 000ike wrote:
Just a random question. Do you believe that God transcends logic?

No.

Then what makes him God? If God is omnipotent, then that means his abilities are unrestricted, and even concepts that are absurd to human beings must be possible to him. Logic is a restriction.

If God "can't" make colorless green ideas sleep furiously that doesn't mean that he's not omnipotent.

Oh really? Why?

It seems to me like you're using our own abilities to conceive of things as a limitation for God's actions. If you're going to say that the faculties of God - the divine, the ultimate, the almighty - are limited to what we can conceive, then you're describing a very weak and human-esque being. Omnipotence means all power. All power means all power.

It's not a "limit" when one "can't" do "something" isn't even an action. It's not a thing. It's nonsense; just a bunch of words strung together in gramatically correct form. It's same as saying God can't adadfeaefageafe therefore he's not omnipotent.

And nothing much in particular hangs on the word "omnipotent" any way. We could just say the most powerful being possible.

You didn't actually respond to my argument. You just repeated yourself and this time substituted adfdfdfkjslaskd..... Things have meaning to us, and things must have meaning to this God of yours. Are all our senses of meaning and understandings equal? Of course not, then he wouldn't be divine. To form parameters on his ability using the precepts of what we can conceive lowers him to our level. God cannot be Godly yet subordinate to our logic.

And you're just repeating your standard bad argument ad nauseum. I've already said how and why attaching nonsense to "God can't" doesn't vitiate against omnipotence on most understandings of omnipotence. I don't know which idiosyncratic definition you're using but it's not one that is standard (except for maybe Rene Descartes).

And on the standard definitions it's not a parameter in the sense that God is restricted from doing that things that would otherwise be possible; it's God that delimits what is possible. And what do you mean by Godly/divine? Because I'm pretty sure I reject your definition of "Godly/divine" in the way your using it.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!